m******y
发帖数: 38 | 1 Yang Y, et al. Ketamine blocks bursting in the lateral habenula to rapidly
relieve depression. 2018. Nature, doi:10.1038/nature25509.
Cui YH, et al. Astroglial Kir4.1 in the lateral habenula drives neuronal
bursts in depression. 2018. Nature, doi:10.1038/nature25752.
http://www.hailanhu-lab.net/ |
g*****n
发帖数: 250 | 2 人的depression是什么？
老鼠的depression是什么？
就扯吧。 |
d********m
发帖数: 3662 | |
L****8
发帖数: 3938 | 4 子非鱼 哈哈
【在 d********m 的大作中提到】
: 老鼠表示我那是乐呵着呢
|
x****6
发帖数: 4339 | 5 楼上的同学们也别酸了，生物目前的发展水平就是很低，一些基本的东西都不了解，只
能摸着石头过河。
如果一定要批评这种工作是扯淡的话，也是洋大人发起的妖风，有本事去酸始作俑者洋
大人去；只知道对同胞指手画脚，非君子所为。
【在 m******y 的大作中提到】
: Yang Y, et al. Ketamine blocks bursting in the lateral habenula to rapidly
: relieve depression. 2018. Nature, doi:10.1038/nature25509.
: Cui YH, et al. Astroglial Kir4.1 in the lateral habenula drives neuronal
: bursts in depression. 2018. Nature, doi:10.1038/nature25752.
: http://www.hailanhu-lab.net/
|
g*****n
发帖数: 250 | 6 哪里看出来只对同胞酸，不对洋大人酸？科学不是没国界吗？ |
x****6
发帖数: 4339 | 7 我这不是就事论事吗？
主贴里只引用了这个大陆叫兽的文章，并没有涉及这个领域的其他洋大人同行。
后面的跟帖也没有提及。
【在 g*****n 的大作中提到】
: 哪里看出来只对同胞酸，不对洋大人酸？科学不是没国界吗？
|
d********m
发帖数: 3662 | 8 这么严肃认真？
【在 x****6 的大作中提到】
: 楼上的同学们也别酸了，生物目前的发展水平就是很低，一些基本的东西都不了解，只
: 能摸着石头过河。
: 如果一定要批评这种工作是扯淡的话，也是洋大人发起的妖风，有本事去酸始作俑者洋
: 大人去；只知道对同胞指手画脚，非君子所为。
|
x****6
发帖数: 4339 | 9 在菌斑插科打诨，来了专业版还是专业一点为好。
【在 d********m 的大作中提到】
: 这么严肃认真？
|
k*****2
发帖数: 135 | 10 支持你！有些人也不知道是从哪个旮旯冒出来，基本的科学素养都没有，最适合一辈子
吃吃中草药什么的……
【在 x****6 的大作中提到】
: 楼上的同学们也别酸了，生物目前的发展水平就是很低，一些基本的东西都不了解，只
: 能摸着石头过河。
: 如果一定要批评这种工作是扯淡的话，也是洋大人发起的妖风，有本事去酸始作俑者洋
: 大人去；只知道对同胞指手画脚，非君子所为。
|
|
|
d********m
发帖数: 3662 | 11 也是
【在 x****6 的大作中提到】
: 在菌斑插科打诨，来了专业版还是专业一点为好。
|
s*****j
发帖数: 6435 | 12 我一直很疑惑, 象这种用动物模型来研究人的行为的, 做出来篇文章 (向LZ贴的这个)
. 专业人士相信吗? 是觉得我门应该马上跟进, 还是当成那种 今年苹果应该削了皮吃
的情况来对待.
【在 x****6 的大作中提到】
: 在菌斑插科打诨，来了专业版还是专业一点为好。
|
s*********8
发帖数: 15 | 13 I don't think you should jump in. It is hard to believe anything out of your
own hand right now. Scientifically I don't think mouse is a relevant model
to study human depression, which is a very complicated process. Monkey is a
good model but given that autism monkey model was iffy, and any monkey study
is not repeatable because nobody can access their model (i don't understand
why top journal publish such study even the animal model can't not be
deposited), i would be away from such studies just like another heavily
cheating field of longevity using worm as model. |
v*******e
发帖数: 11604 | 14
your
model
a
study
understand
你这说法通常是对，然而不一定适合这个特定的研究。首先是这个氯胺酮能治疗忧郁症
是有毒品使用人群证明了的。其次，他们的“sufficient”的研究应该是用的普通老鼠
吧，就是用电极刺激导致忧郁症症状的。这个就算没有model老鼠别的实验室也可以重
复。大家不放心的也就是忧郁症老鼠model是不是有真的忧郁症。这个确实不太好说。
还有自闭症那猴子model，不太好说，因为人的自闭症诊断都不是很清楚。
【在 s*********8 的大作中提到】
: I don't think you should jump in. It is hard to believe anything out of your
: own hand right now. Scientifically I don't think mouse is a relevant model
: to study human depression, which is a very complicated process. Monkey is a
: good model but given that autism monkey model was iffy, and any monkey study
: is not repeatable because nobody can access their model (i don't understand
: why top journal publish such study even the animal model can't not be
: deposited), i would be away from such studies just like another heavily
: cheating field of longevity using worm as model.
|
s*****j
发帖数: 6435 | 15 "生物目前的发展水平就是很低"
不是吧? 我感觉是很多生物的是觉得现在数学, 物理, 科技发展的水平太低. 提供不
了为生物服务的工具.
【在 x****6 的大作中提到】
: 楼上的同学们也别酸了，生物目前的发展水平就是很低，一些基本的东西都不了解，只
: 能摸着石头过河。
: 如果一定要批评这种工作是扯淡的话，也是洋大人发起的妖风，有本事去酸始作俑者洋
: 大人去；只知道对同胞指手画脚，非君子所为。
|
s*****j
发帖数: 6435 | 16 "就是用电极刺激导致忧郁症症状的"
如果用 电极刺激可以导致忧郁症, 那么当年那个共和党的老女人说用电击来治疗同
性恋, 是不是也可以说是 不是完全没有道理?
【在 v*******e 的大作中提到】
:
: your
: model
: a
: study
: understand
: 你这说法通常是对，然而不一定适合这个特定的研究。首先是这个氯胺酮能治疗忧郁症
: 是有毒品使用人群证明了的。其次，他们的“sufficient”的研究应该是用的普通老鼠
: 吧，就是用电极刺激导致忧郁症症状的。这个就算没有model老鼠别的实验室也可以重
: 复。大家不放心的也就是忧郁症老鼠model是不是有真的忧郁症。这个确实不太好说。
|
x****6
发帖数: 4339 | 17 我上面帖子讲了，现在确实属于摸着石头过河。人类的神经/精神现象和动物的关联有
多大，目前还没有定论。从演化的角度，小鼠和人可以追朔到共同的、拥有大脑的祖先
，那么可以推断小鼠和人的大脑肯定是有相似性的。
至于上面关于小鼠的工作对人的借鉴意义，这个可以通过跟进的临床试验来证伪；不过
在那之前，把它当作纯粹的小鼠研究就好。
个)
吃
【在 s*****j 的大作中提到】
: "就是用电极刺激导致忧郁症症状的"
: 如果用 电极刺激可以导致忧郁症, 那么当年那个共和党的老女人说用电击来治疗同
: 性恋, 是不是也可以说是 不是完全没有道理?
|
g*****n
发帖数: 250 | 18 连人的抑郁是什么都不知道，更何谈动物模型。“抑郁”只是医生们把一些相似的症状
归类所给的名词, 没有科学意义。
your
model
a
study
understand
【在 s*********8 的大作中提到】
: I don't think you should jump in. It is hard to believe anything out of your
: own hand right now. Scientifically I don't think mouse is a relevant model
: to study human depression, which is a very complicated process. Monkey is a
: good model but given that autism monkey model was iffy, and any monkey study
: is not repeatable because nobody can access their model (i don't understand
: why top journal publish such study even the animal model can't not be
: deposited), i would be away from such studies just like another heavily
: cheating field of longevity using worm as model.
|
x****6
发帖数: 4339 | 19 属实，
医学不属于严格意义上的科学
【在 g*****n 的大作中提到】
: 连人的抑郁是什么都不知道，更何谈动物模型。“抑郁”只是医生们把一些相似的症状
: 归类所给的名词, 没有科学意义。
:
: your
: model
: a
: study
: understand
|
x****6
发帖数: 4339 | 20 你的这个说法也对，
但是我的表达方式是：生命现象是基于物理、化学过程的复杂现象；生物学不应该单开
专业，从业人员从物理学家、化学家里挑选培养，就像美帝的医商法一样，不设本科专
业，只有高级的研究生院。
换句话说，大部分不具备扎实物理和化学基础的千老可以慢慢歇菜了。
【在 s*****j 的大作中提到】
: "就是用电极刺激导致忧郁症症状的"
: 如果用 电极刺激可以导致忧郁症, 那么当年那个共和党的老女人说用电击来治疗同
: 性恋, 是不是也可以说是 不是完全没有道理?
|
|
|
v*******e
发帖数: 11604 | 21
这说法不一定对。人的恋爱现象也是基于物理、化学过程的复杂现象，不妨碍行为学家
去研究人在恋爱中的行为。他们不需要扎实物理和化学基础。生命现象离物理、化学过
程中间还隔了好几个层级，物理也就在研究蛋白质折叠这些东西上面有用；化学在分子
机理尚有用，更高一级的，由于复杂度增加，有自己的规律，无法完全从物理、化学的
定律上推理出来。就像恋爱中的嫉妒心，用进化论解释比用物理、化学解释更方便。我
自己是物理出身，受的教育是物理是一切的基础，比别的学科都高大上。我很晚才悟出
物理的局限性，属于后知后觉。
【在 x****6 的大作中提到】
: 你的这个说法也对，
: 但是我的表达方式是：生命现象是基于物理、化学过程的复杂现象；生物学不应该单开
: 专业，从业人员从物理学家、化学家里挑选培养，就像美帝的医商法一样，不设本科专
: 业，只有高级的研究生院。
: 换句话说，大部分不具备扎实物理和化学基础的千老可以慢慢歇菜了。
|
x****6
发帖数: 4339 | 22 “生命现象离物理、化学过程中间还隔了好几个层级”
这个是对的。
但是生物学和物理学在训练上的最大的区别是前者以识记现象为主，后者以机制和逻辑
为主。导致的后果就是 生命现象本来就够复杂了，结果一帮缺乏逻辑和结构性思维的
千老去研究，就更是一团浆糊。接下来的后果就是生物学变成编故事的游戏，这还没算
各种硬性和软性的造假。
研究复杂现象如生命，尤其的需要物理学家的结构性思维。
【在 v*******e 的大作中提到】
:
: 这说法不一定对。人的恋爱现象也是基于物理、化学过程的复杂现象，不妨碍行为学家
: 去研究人在恋爱中的行为。他们不需要扎实物理和化学基础。生命现象离物理、化学过
: 程中间还隔了好几个层级，物理也就在研究蛋白质折叠这些东西上面有用；化学在分子
: 机理尚有用，更高一级的，由于复杂度增加，有自己的规律，无法完全从物理、化学的
: 定律上推理出来。就像恋爱中的嫉妒心，用进化论解释比用物理、化学解释更方便。我
: 自己是物理出身，受的教育是物理是一切的基础，比别的学科都高大上。我很晚才悟出
: 物理的局限性，属于后知后觉。
|
o*******a
发帖数: 242 | 23 all bullshit/
the medication this group uses is ketamine, which is a known med used in
the clinical medicine for sedation, analgesia and quick induction of
analgesia. This med is toxic and causes dependence.
Ketamine is not approved by FDA for treatment of depression.
We do not need a toxic and dangerous drug like morphine or ketamine for
anti-depression.
Mechanism is mechanism. Don't say everything is related to medicine/patient
management. Really too far ! |
E*******1
发帖数: 3464 | 24 抑郁。。。有的是神经上器质性变化，有的是思维方式问题爱钻牛角尖，有的是受了刺
激这个精神反馈系统失灵，都表现的是抑郁，怎么定义 |
d******t
发帖数: 27 | 25
your
model
a
study
understand
【在 s*********8 的大作中提到】
: I don't think you should jump in. It is hard to believe anything out of your
: own hand right now. Scientifically I don't think mouse is a relevant model
: to study human depression, which is a very complicated process. Monkey is a
: good model but given that autism monkey model was iffy, and any monkey study
: is not repeatable because nobody can access their model (i don't understand
: why top journal publish such study even the animal model can't not be
: deposited), i would be away from such studies just like another heavily
: cheating field of longevity using worm as model.
|
A******y
发帖数: 2041 | 26 Ketamine has been used in human for depression (off-label). It is also in
low dosage, so you don't see the toxicity effect. A lot of the drug
approval is political, for example, we know the pharmacology of MDMA very
well, and it will probably finally be approved for PTSD treatment. Also,
toxicity is a relative term...water can kill you if you drink too much of it.
Btw, MDMA toxicity depending on what studies that you look at. It either
has no side-effect or it might damage brain. However, if you read the study
carefully, the damaging effect is from amphetamine mixed within MDMA.
All drugs can be abused...I mean people even abuse food product like whip-it
, what can you do...
patient
【在 o*******a 的大作中提到】
: all bullshit/
: the medication this group uses is ketamine, which is a known med used in
: the clinical medicine for sedation, analgesia and quick induction of
: analgesia. This med is toxic and causes dependence.
: Ketamine is not approved by FDA for treatment of depression.
: We do not need a toxic and dangerous drug like morphine or ketamine for
: anti-depression.
: Mechanism is mechanism. Don't say everything is related to medicine/patient
: management. Really too far !
|
o*******a
发帖数: 242 | 27 In term of any benefits patients may get, these two papers are useless. I
instead hope to see a report from a clinical trial, even a 30 participant's
clinical trial is much valuable than a garbage nature report.
In tern of mechanism, these two papers may provide new thoughts.
But, people really care is if ketamine can be used as an antidepressant,
which the two Nature papers provide nothing whereas a simple clinical trial
may provide some hints.
it.
study
it
【在 A******y 的大作中提到】
: Ketamine has been used in human for depression (off-label). It is also in
: low dosage, so you don't see the toxicity effect. A lot of the drug
: approval is political, for example, we know the pharmacology of MDMA very
: well, and it will probably finally be approved for PTSD treatment. Also,
: toxicity is a relative term...water can kill you if you drink too much of it.
: Btw, MDMA toxicity depending on what studies that you look at. It either
: has no side-effect or it might damage brain. However, if you read the study
: carefully, the damaging effect is from amphetamine mixed within MDMA.
: All drugs can be abused...I mean people even abuse food product like whip-it
: , what can you do...
|
o*******a
发帖数: 242 | 28 I don't see how these papers provide an example as "a basic research
gives clinical break-through".
bullshit |
o*******a
发帖数: 242 | 29 凡是说对某某疾病有用的，不管老药／新药，都得上临床试验，才能有真的突破。 |
x*******t
发帖数: 3764 | 30 基础研究就不要太过多的考虑一定要解决多么重大的问题，纯粹的科研有一部分就是要
理解生物学现象而已。和国内的同僚聊过，太过于强调和重大疾病相关性
your
model
a
study
understand
【在 s*********8 的大作中提到】
: I don't think you should jump in. It is hard to believe anything out of your
: own hand right now. Scientifically I don't think mouse is a relevant model
: to study human depression, which is a very complicated process. Monkey is a
: good model but given that autism monkey model was iffy, and any monkey study
: is not repeatable because nobody can access their model (i don't understand
: why top journal publish such study even the animal model can't not be
: deposited), i would be away from such studies just like another heavily
: cheating field of longevity using worm as model.
|
|
|
P****R
发帖数: 22479 | 31 这是一个好问题。
【在 E*******1 的大作中提到】
: 抑郁。。。有的是神经上器质性变化，有的是思维方式问题爱钻牛角尖，有的是受了刺
: 激这个精神反馈系统失灵，都表现的是抑郁，怎么定义
|
h*******o
发帖数: 4884 | 32 ketamine is not approved for treatment of depression. However, there is a
large number of clinical trials for ketamine as a fast-acting antidepressant.
ketamine is a scheduled drug, currently scheduled III. To compare ketamine
to morphine is quite unfair.....
Your points are valid that there are concerns with ketamine, such as
dissociative amnesia, potential neuronal apoptosis in in neonatal brains (
therefore contraindicated in pediatric use for pediatrics under 3 years of
age).
Therefore, it is important to understand the mechanism of ketamine against
depression, including both its rapid actions and its effects in treatment
resistant depression (TRD), so that new molecules could be developed with
the same or event better efficacy and less side effects. Or at least,
understanding the MOA will instruct the best clinical practice of ketamine,
should it be approved or not.
patient
【在 o*******a 的大作中提到】
: all bullshit/
: the medication this group uses is ketamine, which is a known med used in
: the clinical medicine for sedation, analgesia and quick induction of
: analgesia. This med is toxic and causes dependence.
: Ketamine is not approved by FDA for treatment of depression.
: We do not need a toxic and dangerous drug like morphine or ketamine for
: anti-depression.
: Mechanism is mechanism. Don't say everything is related to medicine/patient
: management. Really too far !
|
