h*******s
发帖数: 3932 | 1 ☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
TheBigSlick (Ivan) 于 (Mon Nov 21 14:00:50 2011, 美东) 提到:
I don't have many interesting hands to share these days. I am playing boring
poker with either small gains and small loss.
But there was one hand I played serveral weeks ago that I think may be worth
discussion.
I was playing NL2/5 table, villain was a young asian in mid 20s. He sits
down with maybe $300 chips, run up to $500ish when this hand happend. I was
sitting maybe $600 chips and had him covered. I was still down like $100-200
during the session.
villain seemed to be OK players, he didn't enter too many pots, seems to be
tight and aggressive. He won a couple hands without showdown so I didn't
have too many information about him.
I was dealt AQo in early position, raised to $25, one called and villain in
late position called, $80ish in the pot
Flop Q, 9, 5 rainbrow, a great flop for my hand, so I bet $45,
uncomfortablly, both players called. I didn't like it because I only have
TPTK and I have to play this hand OOP and the pot is already getting big.
Turn is J, only complete gutshot. I checked for pot control, one checked,
and villain bet $60. I suspected him just playing position so I called and
one folded.
River a A, a good card for me because I would have beat any 2 pairs. Since I
put him no more than a two pair hand, I decided to value bet.
I bet $100 into the pot and to my surprise, villain instantly shoved, almost $400, I realized I made a mistake and should have checked and called the river
instead.
Now, what will you do? Call or fold?
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
gocanucks (gocanucks) 于 (Mon Nov 21 14:18:27 2011, 美东) 提到:
i would fold. i doubt the villain would raise with anything less than a set.
i had an almost identical hand as yours last week. betting was a bit
different though as i was on the button. i bet on the rainbow flop with tptk
, villain called. i bet again on the turn when a gut shot straight was
completed, and villain called. villain bet half the pot on river when i hit
top 2 pairs. since it was a friendly low stake home game and i was a big
winner, i decided to call. villain showed a straight.
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
fryking (赤道企鹅) 于 (Mon Nov 21 14:24:39 2011, 美东) 提到:
$300 for $830, if you think he could bluff+over play 2 pair > 30%, you got
to call. here even you got not much info. on him, 30% is a low % which is
almost always true.
flop bet is kind of low, they would expect you to c-bet no matter what most
of time. $45 size builds an OOP pot in an awkward way. hands like KTs could
float.
if you check call turn, then betting out river is not consistent, even you
hit top two. most of time, A here is useless to you i guess.
boring
worth
was
200
be
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
hillgong (King GG) 于 (Mon Nov 21 14:32:29 2011, 美东) 提到:
I like your play, he could held QJs and call your value bet on the river. As
played, I don't think he would shove with two pair so bet/fold is a good
decision on the river in my opinion. If you check and he bet 200, what will
you do? I think we save some money by betting out. In terms of his range, he
definitely could have KTs since he is getting a better odds in position on
the flop when the other player called. Also, 60$ bet on the turn seems a
little fishy to me as well.
boring
worth
was
200
be
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
player (Hope is the best thing) 于 (Mon Nov 21 15:07:56 2011, 美东) 提到:
+1. The flop bet size is way too small. I would make a bet near pot size
on the flop, first protect your hand from drawing out from gutters ,also
getting enough info if you are against a set or not. It is relatively
cheaper to find out in the early street.
It is a easy fold to me on the river.
most
could
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
TheBigSlick (Ivan) 于 (Mon Nov 21 15:20:48 2011, 美东) 提到:
I agreed with you guys. Should have either check call a bet or bet fold
against a shove on the river.
I chose to call the shove on the river, my reasoning was this: against a
shove, my top two pair only beats bluff. I almost always lose to set or str.
But first,does he has a set here? At the Q, 9, 5 flop, I can basically rule
out he slow played pocket Qs in late pos, I can rule out pocket JJs as well
, because a person with a normal brain will probably laydown JJs facing a
bet and a call on the flop. so only left pocket 9 and pocket 5s. But does he
has it? I highly doubt it. A set probably will play much faster than he was
. Not only he had to choose slow play set on flop in multi-way, but he had
to choose to bet less than 1/3 the pot on the turn on Q, J, 9, 5 board.
Give perfect incentive for sb with top pair with str draw to continue. So
strangely I didn't put him on sets, at least not a big concern.
KT was a real threat, IMO. It matches all the moves he has. On the flop
quite a lot ppl will call one bet to hit gut shot, especially in position. A
small bet on the turn could be interpreted as he viewed my hand was weak,
and since he hold the nuts, he didn't want to scare anyone and river was an
automatic shove facing my value bet.
I bet on the river, as I said, I don't want to miss chance to value bet
against any two pairs. However, my original plan was to fold if I got re-
raised since I knew nobody would raise with two pairs on that board.
I didn't stick to my plan and I wasn't deciplined enough. After almost two
mins tank, based on analysis above, I finally called and decided to pay off
the str. Villian deeply sighed and then collapsed. I asked him to show the
cards because he got called. He showed 97o and I showed my hand and won a
1000 dollar pot.
Even though I won the pot, I don't like my call a bit. Even though I have
seemed sound analysis, even though I feel like he was just playing the
position, I know most of time, the call was wrong and ppl will show nuts
majority of the time. So this hand, IMO, will be categoried as a hand badly
play with good result.
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
TheBigSlick (Ivan) 于 (Mon Nov 21 15:42:07 2011, 美东) 提到:
I am not neccesory agree with the big bet on the flop.
A pot size bet, in this case, $80, will make the pot way to big to manage on
later street, especailly when I am OOP. I doubt it will stop some loose
player to chase gutter as well, especially there is another player called as
well, giving better odds to chase a gutter in late position.
Plus it doesn't gain much information as well. QK, QJ will have also called,
sometimes you even get called by QT. After all, ppl play those broadway
card and hit top pair, will they lay it down on the flop just facing one big
bet? I doubt it.
So the big bet doesn't give me much information. On the country, the pot
blew to $320 instead of $200. My remaining stack become $400, make me
dangeriously close to commit to the pot.
Thus on the turn, what can I do? If I bet any amount, it automatically
commit me to the pot with one pair. if I check, and sb bet a healty amount,
say $150-$200, I will have to fold because call means I have to go all-in
either.
If I am lucky, both checked and come to river with a blank or not so
scareish card, I am willing to call a bet to get show down vaule. But again,
if the pot is $320, even a little over a half pot size bet ($150+) seem to
be a 50/50 decision versus a pot of $200 with a $100 river bet.
So IMO, I won't like the big bet on the flop.
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
player (Hope is the best thing) 于 (Mon Nov 21 16:10:38 2011, 美东) 提到:
It really depends on opponent.
Lot of decent players would fold KQ, QJ on that flop to a pot size bet
from early position raiser, especially that raiser had been played solid and can bet againt 2 preflop callers. That raisers's range is nearly QQ+, AQ.
str.
rule
well
he
was
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
hillgong (King GG) 于 (Mon Nov 21 16:27:20 2011, 美东) 提到:
Wow, I think you made a bad call at the right time and kudo to your opponent
making a good play. I personally think flop bet is fine and call me nuts
but sometimes I like to check that flop in a multiway pot to see how my
opponents acts.
Just my 2 cents.
str.
rule
well
he
was
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
superbobo (123) 于 (Mon Nov 21 16:34:06 2011, 美东) 提到:
看过你们的讨论以后我觉得我之前那手online的river shove确实很难+EV
太容易被人call了
str.
rule
well
he
was
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
fryking (赤道企鹅) 于 (Mon Nov 21 16:35:19 2011, 美东) 提到:
oh, so, next time buy me a bowl of noodles? haha.
str.
rule
well
he
was
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
dch1010 (Jim) 于 (Mon Nov 21 16:47:17 2011, 美东) 提到:
我喜欢player大大的话，it depends。。。。
btw，版主老大，我咋老觉得你评论别人的牌跟你自己打live是两个人呢，你不会是双
子座的吧。。。。
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
TheBigSlick (Ivan) 于 (Mon Nov 21 16:54:44 2011, 美东) 提到:
Wait you guys coming back from thxgiving. Hope you have a big score there.
Thxgiving should have a lot of fish coming out and a lot of drunks.
Maybe early next year we meet as a small group at AC or Delaware park (it is
not far away from NYC either)?.
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
GannTrader (甘哥(nasd)) 于 (Mon Nov 21 17:06:27 2011, 美东) 提到:
+1
Still think flop bet is too small after reading your guys' discussion thread.
Really like fryking's "inconsistency" analysis. I believe this is exactly
why the young guy shoved. Give credit for his play, even though his bluff
was caught.
most
could
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
fryking (赤道企鹅) 于 (Mon Nov 21 19:00:47 2011, 美东) 提到:
wokao, how did u know? lol.
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
fryking (赤道企鹅) 于 (Mon Nov 21 19:03:40 2011, 美东) 提到:
i make all kinds of such plays all the time, or 4 hands in one hand, play
pre, flop, turn, river all differently, sigh.
thread.
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
fryking (赤道企鹅) 于 (Mon Nov 21 19:04:49 2011, 美东) 提到:
dump that AC place, unless they open revel soon enough, hehe.
i wouldn't mind if next time we meet at parx or foxwoods, just for the sake
of difference, lol.
is
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
dch1010 (Jim) 于 (Mon Nov 21 19:16:28 2011, 美东) 提到:
lol 我第一反应是，你真的被我说中了有多重人格，后来再反应过来，原来你是双子座
的，着实出了身冷汗阿。。。
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
Windstormm (Windstormm) 于 (Mon Nov 21 19:27:32 2011, 美东) 提到:
Parx 不错。 就是不能过夜。 今天在那里碰到一条极品墨西哥鱼。 几小时输了一千多
。 结果全桌都变成深筹码。 丫还说他平时输更多。 我真象问他要电话， 以后他要玩
我都陪他。 lol
dump that AC place, unless they open revel soon enough, hehe.i wouldn't mind
if next tim........
★ Sent from iPhone App: iReader Mitbbs Lite 7.28
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
fryking (赤道企鹅) 于 (Mon Nov 21 19:29:58 2011, 美东) 提到:
shhhhh, between u and me, ok? lol.
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
fryking (赤道企鹅) 于 (Mon Nov 21 19:30:45 2011, 美东) 提到:
我都陪他, en, heavy taste, hehe.
mind
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
Windstormm (Windstormm) 于 (Mon Nov 21 19:38:33 2011, 美东) 提到:
flop Bet is not too big. It's perfect sizing. River check call 也可以。 bet
call 也可以。这牌在2／5 上除了对rock. 不能fold。你其实只输straight. 而且还
赢很多他2 pair的value range.
Well played
I don't have many interesting hands to share these days. I am playing boring
poker with ........
★ Sent from iPhone App: iReader Mitbbs Lite 7.28
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
Windstormm (Windstormm) 于 (Mon Nov 21 19:50:26 2011, 美东) 提到:
象他这这种极品鱼我真的不多见。 一般都是普通鱼。桌上有几个人还拼命说他说他打
得差。 我真怕他被气跑了， 一个劲说好话。 靠。
我都陪他, en, heavy taste, hehe.
★ Sent from iPhone App: iReader Mitbbs Lite 7.28
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
fryking (赤道企鹅) 于 (Mon Nov 21 21:10:40 2011, 美东) 提到:
这种事情还有一种可能结局，就是鱼输了全桌，偏偏赢了你一把大的，那才叫郁闷。要
说咱心理素质强，想拼时间，可架不住人突然来一句晚安，呵呵。
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
player (Hope is the best thing) 于 (Mon Nov 21 21:44:46 2011, 美东) 提到:
这种悲剧还是经常发生的。俺就经历过很多次。
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
goes (goes) 于 (Mon Nov 21 22:30:00 2011, 美东) 提到:
Guess all of us had same experiences like this.
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
goes (goes) 于 (Mon Nov 21 22:33:15 2011, 美东) 提到:
Lots of stupid player like to tap the glass...
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
chemcat (化学猫，rxn impossible) 于 (Tue Nov 22 03:26:11 2011, 美东) 提到:
1. 我是绝对会call的，他的turn bet size 太小。很难想像有SET的时候他会BET 60
into 220. 所以我不会相信他会是SET.他如果是SET的话，flat call your flop bet很
合理。但是turn上你CHECK以后他为了在后面两条街打倒全下，肯定需要至少搞到100以
上才行。除非他能预料到在RIVER有raise你的机会。不然他的river bet会是个OVERBET
很难被CALL。
2. flop上你的SPR是6左右。除非你有READ知道敌人是千年不RAISE的石头老爷爷。TPTK
commit不会是个很大的LEAK。
3. 这么DRY的board我觉得bet half pot完全正确。在100 BB这个筹码深度。完全没有
必要bet full pot for information -- 用20个BB来换information太贵了。任何dry
board都有遇到set的可能。难道我们每次都bet full pot with a tptk and fold to a
raise? 除非对人有read,否则基本上按SPR来打就好了。
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
player (Hope is the best thing) 于 (Tue Nov 22 04:02:52 2011, 美东) 提到:
OVERBET
Bettting small with a set on the turn is very normal. I play this way a
lot. Why scare so many weak hand away? Also the small bet on the turn could
induce a check/raise often.
TPTK
Do not know much about SPR, did not play a lot of 100BB game as well. But
contantly committing with TPTK in deep stack Nl game is a disastrous
strategy, IMHO. Since a lot of time TPTK are just bluff catcher against most
decent players, not value range. It highly depends on opponent and
situation though. In 75-100BB HU situation, TPTK is very strong hand and can
often play whole stack profitly. But a lot time TPTK is similar to
second pair, just bluff catcher.
a
I would still bet at least 75% of the pot, for both information and
protection, especially when you are OOP.
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
chemcat (化学猫，rxn impossible) 于 (Tue Nov 22 04:15:33 2011, 美东) 提到:
恩。主要是全看stack size。 >300 BB 和 50 BB的打法是很不一样的。Hand value也
很不一样。100BB正好在中间。TPTK有时该扔，有时该commit。但是楼主的top 2除非是
有很特别的read，100BB的stack size是很难扔的。
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
Windstormm (Windstormm) 于 (Tue Nov 22 08:40:57 2011, 美东) 提到:
This is a risk we have to take. Well...not really risk, but variance.
Another good thing of having a super fish is that almost every one is on
tilt on the table after a few suckouts and turning to a super fish. 然后我们
就可以收网了。
这种事情还有一种可能结局，就是鱼输了全桌，偏偏赢了你一把大的，那才叫郁闷。要
说咱心理素质强，想拼时间，可架不住人突然来一句晚安，呵呵。
★ Sent from iPhone App: iReader Mitbbs Lite 7.28
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
Windstormm (Windstormm) 于 (Tue Nov 22 08:47:34 2011, 美东) 提到:
Yubobo 分析的很到位, 第三点是精华。只有第二点在flop 上如果被raise 还是要好好
考虑一下是否commit. relatively dry board. 对手还是有很多set 和two pair 在他
的range里的。
1. 我是绝对会call的，他的turn bet size 太小。很难想像有SET的时候他会BET 60
into 220. 所以我不会相信他会是SET.他如果是SET的话，f........
★ Sent from iPhone App: iReader Mitbbs Lite 7.28
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
Windstormm (Windstormm) 于 (Tue Nov 22 09:01:20 2011, 美东) 提到:
这个牌如果对手打得比较滥，bluff 比较少，都可以考虑check shove, 这里有太
多 2pair 的牌live 的鱼是放不下的。你这个rivered 2 pair 和set of 9 和5 基本是一样的
牌。 对手bluff 比较多才bet/call or check call.
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
chemcat (化学猫，rxn impossible) 于 (Tue Nov 22 14:32:07 2011, 美东) 提到:
I generally commit TPTK when SPR < 4. Between 4 and 8 is a grey area and it
depends.
When SPR is higher than 8, I tend not to commit TPTK and dont worry too much
about protecting my hand.
But in general I tend not to respect a flop raise much. Often times people
like to raise their top pair or even 2nd pair to know where they are. I will
always just smooth call OOP with TPTK or two pair or a set. I am not sure
if that is the right play, but I just never want to tell them where they are
if their raise is a probe raise.
I do respect a smooth flop call and a turn raise a lot. Few people at 1/2 or
2/5 tables are capable of a turn raise bluff. I typically fold my TPTK to a
turn raise when the stack is deep.
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
dch1010 (Jim) 于 (Tue Nov 22 15:54:06 2011, 美东) 提到:
鱼宝宝到底是mtt狂人还是cash狂人啊 SPR理论更多的是在cash game上应用吧
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
Windstormm (Windstormm) 于 (Tue Nov 22 16:15:25 2011, 美东) 提到:
你的spr 比我用得好。 不过打牌切记不能教条。 在grey area里 （很多100bb spr 都
会在grey area 里吧？） 象这帖里的牌， multiway dry board and someone in
position raise when he can close action， 我觉得还是成牌居多。 能semi
bluffed 的只有j10. 我觉得他一般called 可能性也更大一些。那这里加上cold bluff
他的range 还是很强的。除非有特别read 还是要慎重stack off 而且后面还有一个人。
I generally commit TPTK when SPR
★ Sent from iPhone App: iReader Mitbbs Lite 7.28 |
|
