n*****w
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faycute (faycute) 于 (Sat Sep 11 20:42:05 2010, 美东) 提到:
大概18集的时候，就是宝玉挨过猛打后送了几块旧帕子给黛玉，黛玉在帕子上做“
彩线难收面上珠”那三首诗的时候，很多字发音都好奇怪啊，
抛珠滚玉只偷潸，镇日无心镇日闲（这里的日被蒋妹读成“热”）。
枕上袖边难拂拭，任他点点与斑斑。（这里的斑斑变成“伯伯”）。
彩线难收面上珠，湘江旧迹已模糊。
窗前亦有千竿竹，不识香痕渍也无（这里的渍也变成了仄）。
还有后面凹晶馆和湘云联诗的时候，黛玉第一句竟然是唱出来的。
实在不明白，是特意安排的，还是？
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silentmoon (沉默是金) 于 (Sat Sep 11 22:30:57 2010, 美东) 提到:
故意的吧，据说那个是古音
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digital (你是疯儿我是傻？) 于 (Sat Sep 11 22:49:05 2010, 美东) 提到:
In Yangzhou Dialect, 日and“热”have the same pronouncation。
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digital (你是疯儿我是傻？) 于 (Sat Sep 11 22:53:31 2010, 美东) 提到:
In Yangzhou Dialect, "渍"and"仄"are also pronounced the same.
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digital (你是疯儿我是傻？) 于 (Sat Sep 11 23:06:10 2010, 美东) 提到:
“小艇偏生稳，双鬟滴溜光。几回兜搭搁帘张，却到凫庄那块顶风凉。”
“杨柳耶些绿，荷花实在香。清溪虽说没多长，可是紧干派遣也难忘。”
“点个风儿没，丝毫雨也无。讨嫌偏是鹁鹧鸪，冷不溜丢花外一声呼。”
“索度邻家妪，唠叨故里书。大清早上费踌躇，无理无辜耽误好工夫。”
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digital (你是疯儿我是傻？) 于 (Sat Sep 11 23:16:34 2010, 美东) 提到:
林黛玉写的诗，大体也是用扬州话押韵的。第四十五回中，黛玉有一首题为《秋窗风雨
夕》的诗，其中有几句是：“助秋风雨来何速，惊破秋窗秋梦绿。抱得秋情不忍眠，自
向秋屏移泪烛。”这首诗如果用北方话去读，“速”（su）、“绿”(lv)、“烛”(zhu
)几个字并不押韵，但是如果用扬州方言去读，就很押韵。第七十回黛玉有一首《桃花
行》，也全用扬州方言押韵的。
据统计，在《红楼梦》中，约有扬州话一百五十多例。
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sky (天) 于 (Sun Sep 12 02:14:37 2010, 美东) 提到:
韵不韵的，不是根据现在的普通话/扬州话来的，去查查韵谱吧
zhu
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digital (你是疯儿我是傻？) 于 (Sun Sep 12 04:04:37 2010, 美东) 提到:
What's your point?
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digital (你是疯儿我是傻？) 于 (Sun Sep 12 04:42:35 2010, 美东) 提到:
Are you talking about this“现代汉语韵谱体系构造”?
中华韵谱，即“中华谱牒”，是相对于古汉语韵谱体系的“现代汉语韵谱体系构造”。
中华韵谱，其概念的提出者是学者——日不落，该词汇起源于“中华汉诗运动”中的汉
学学说，日不落明确指出：“创造现代‘中华韵谱’——实践韵律改革，是古典文学从
内容到形式上的全面革新创造。”故，中华韵谱革新构想的提出，应当是个标志性的文
学事件。因为其从根本上解决了古典文学格律体在当代网络文坛打油化的趋势，也杜绝
了古典格律对意境表达功能的束缚。正如日不落说：“打破韵律求新风，革新韵律终有
成；律压语境成桎梏，唐宋至今无诗经。”（《打油：和“莺语如梦”》）。中华韵谱
的灵感来源于网友“莺语如梦”的诗歌“山野遍芳清秋临，独上幽径踏绿茵。醉听松涛
伴月明，笑对苍穹寄闲情。”。同时一些似懂非懂格律的人，在网络文学交际中兴妖作
怪，冒充之乎者也的平仄大师，造成了不良现象。于是，借用蒋红岩说法就是“古典韵
律，得研究改革之、革命之”以创造新的“中华韵谱”。古典诗歌的形式，应当符合现
代的语法习惯，立课题项目开工，系统挖掘当代新语法，修改古韵律的差异，扩展古人
的平仄的概念。兰花草金学孟先生说：“社会发展，语言也相应发展，这才是自然发展
的必然！古诗、新诗都沿用宽韵或者散韵，是当代的需要点。”。中华韵谱概念的来由
与一副对联有关。“秋荻轻焰卷沙洲、枫叶丹风醉斜阳”，寒山残竹简评：“对联尾韵
上联仄声,下联平声.否则不成仗。洲.阳都是平声；愁,秋也都是平声。所以这两联都不
能称为楹联.室雅何须大、花香不在多——仄仄平平仄、平平仄仄平，这就是对仗。上
平下仄,上仄下平.句中平仄有时可放宽一些,韵脚上仄下平是不能变的.”
编辑本段网友争论
1、网友寒山残竹认为：“文学境界之改变不是一下子的事,汉字简化了几十年,还
存在于台,港,澳.....诗,词,曲,联的格律是中华民族文化的精华传统,欲改变其属性决
非一朝一夕之功所能奏效的,以传统文化和货币相提并论是否.....?按现代汉语发音调
整部分古声韵还是可行的.但决非为所欲为的乱来,是要经过无数次反覆,得到社会和文
界统一认识才行.”。
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faycute (faycute) 于 (Sun Sep 12 15:17:52 2010, 美东) 提到:
哇，大家的回复都要深奥哦，这样就明白了，我还以为是她要做出哭的样子，哭得时候
鼻塞发不了音，所以“日”等字就变成了“热”，原来是用扬州话说得，那就怪不得了
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rodney (||) 于 (Sun Sep 12 21:06:17 2010, 美东) 提到:
基本上，内容越长的，越接近伪学术。
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silentmoon (沉默是金) 于 (Mon Sep 13 11:47:29 2010, 美东) 提到:
跟扬州话没有关系，这剧里其他人念诗也这样
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silentmoon (沉默是金) 于 (Mon Sep 13 11:48:32 2010, 美东) 提到:
而且扬州话里“斑斑”并不念“伯伯”
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xjack (xjack) 于 (Mon Sep 13 12:41:17 2010, 美东) 提到:
这跟扬州话有什么关系？不看平水韵的啊
zhu
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digital (你是疯儿我是傻？) 于 (Wed Sep 15 01:56:30 2010, 美东) 提到:
You can also verify "平水韵" from Yangzhou Dialect pronouncation.
Just give you another example from "平水韵"
下平十五咸：
咸函
"咸"and "函" are of the same pronouncation but the Mandarin pronouncations
are different.
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digital (你是疯儿我是傻？) 于 (Wed Sep 15 02:02:27 2010, 美东) 提到:
Are you sure that you were reading the same version as the
TV makers were using?
It is highly possible that the TV directors and writers were
using the same poem but slightly different version from yours,
because 斑斑and 驳驳are usually used together, with the same meaning
and interchangable.
BTW, I did not comment on that because
A) it was not the correct character (not 伯伯)
B) I was not certain that you were comparing the same sentence/poet.
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digital (你是疯儿我是傻？) 于 (Wed Sep 15 02:17:25 2010, 美东) 提到:
Unfortunately,
1) The basis for classifying characters into different or same rhymes is
pronouncation.
2) There could be different versions of rhyme classifications, the base
under which are different pronouncations, ancient or new.
3) Unfortunately, the so-called "平水韵" that you mention does not support
your claim that 日 and 热 were in the same rhyme.
入声四质：质日笔出室实疾术一乙壹吉秩率律逸佚失漆栗毕恤密蜜桔溢瑟膝匹述黜弼跸
七叱卒[终也]虱悉戌嫉帅[动词]蒺侄踬怵蟋筚篥必泌荜秫栉唧帙溧谧昵轶聿诘耋垤捽茁
觱鹬窒苾
入声九屑：屑节雪绝列烈结穴说血舌洁别缺裂热决铁灭折拙切悦辙诀泄锲咽[呜咽]轶噎
彻澈哲鳖设啮劣玦截窃孽浙孑桔颉拮撷揭褐[曷韵同]缬碣[月韵同]挈抉亵薛拽[曳]爇冽
瞥迭跌阅餮耋垤捏页阕觖谲鴂撇蹩篾楔惙辍啜缀撤绁杰桀涅霓蜺[齐,锡韵同]批[齐韵同
]
In fact, the "平水韵" that originated from Tang and Song could actually be
too old a standard for determining the rhymes that occurred in the poems of
Qing Dynasty. Kangxi and other emperors all made their efforts in "reforming
" the rhyme classifications in their lexicon editing projects.
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digital (你是疯儿我是傻？) 于 (Wed Sep 15 02:30:17 2010, 美东) 提到:
BTW, pronouncing "渍" as "ze" is more scientific and of longer history.
You see that 啧啧称奇 is still pronounced as "ze" today. That should be
the original pronouncation, which is still not changed in many southern
dialects.
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digital (你是疯儿我是傻？) 于 (Wed Sep 15 03:02:31 2010, 美东) 提到:
You want to know why?
Because Yangzhou Dialect is older than Mandarin and more suitable to
explain the rhymes in "平水韵" than Mandarin. Of course, some other old
dialects can also be used as a reference. Even Yangzhou Dialect itself has
changed a lot over the years and was affected by Mandarin. There could be
characters in the same rhyme in old Yangzhou Dialect, but not in rhyme in
new Yangzhou Dialect.
One example:
In old Yangzhou Dialect, "彻撤浙"are in the same rhyme with "窃劣节";
but in new Yangzhou Dialect, the pronouncation of "彻撤浙" are all severely influenced by the Mandarin and they lost the same rhyme vowel of "ie",
although still pronounced in the same tone of 入声.
平水韵
入声九屑：屑节雪绝列烈结穴说血舌洁别缺裂热决铁灭折拙切悦辙诀泄锲咽[呜咽]轶噎
彻澈哲鳖设啮劣玦截窃孽浙孑桔颉拮撷揭褐[曷韵同]缬碣[月韵同]挈抉亵薛拽[曳]爇冽
瞥迭跌阅餮耋垤捏页阕觖谲鴂撇蹩篾楔惙辍啜缀撤绁杰桀涅霓蜺[齐,锡韵同]批[齐韵同
]
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digital (你是疯儿我是傻？) 于 (Wed Sep 15 03:17:08 2010, 美东) 提到:
The response of "去查查韵谱吧" is longer because "韵谱" itself is a joke in
explaining ancient poems. The so-called "韵谱" is actually very modern.
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digital (你是疯儿我是傻？) 于 (Wed Sep 15 04:09:12 2010, 美东) 提到:
“助秋风雨来何速，惊破秋窗秋梦绿。抱得秋情不忍眠，自向秋屏移泪烛。”
Even in "平水韵", 绿 and 速 are not in the same rhyme:
平水韵入声
【一屋】屋木竹目服福禄熟谷肉族鹿腹菊陆轴逐牧伏宿读犊渎毂粥肃育六缩哭幅斛戮仆
畜蓄叔淑菽独卜馥沐速祝麓镞蹙筑穆睦啄覆曲秃谷扑鬻辐瀑竺簇暴掬鞠郁矗簏蓿塾朴蹴
碌毓舳昱夙匐觫孰
【二沃】沃俗玉足曲粟烛属录箓辱狱绿毒局欲束鹄蜀促触续督赎笃浴酷缛瞩躅溽跼醁
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sky (天) 于 (Wed Sep 15 05:05:11 2010, 美东) 提到:
isn't google university wonderful?
我说让你查查韵谱你就搬出中华韵谱，人家提到平水韵你又copy来一大堆，既然你一屋二沃都搬来了，那你知不知道诗韵跟词韵的差别？ 听没听说过一屋二沃通用？
语言都是在不断发展的，很多方言都保留了入声字和一些古音，相对于扬州话，闽南话和粤语甚至更接近古汉语发音。但如果说曹雪芹写诗写词是根据扬州话来押韵，未免有些本末倒置了。
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digital (你是疯儿我是傻？) 于 (Thu Sep 16 02:23:28 2010, 美东) 提到:
1. We were talking about the poem of 黛玉, not the 词 of 黛玉!
" 大概18集的时候，就是宝玉挨过猛打后送了几块旧帕子给黛玉，黛玉在帕子上做“
彩线难收面上珠”那三首诗的时候，..."
Do you know what is the meaning of "三首诗的时候"?
2. Why do you repeat my conclusion that "Of course, some other old
dialects can also be used as a reference. Even Yangzhou Dialect itself has
changed a lot over the years and was affected by Mandarin. There could be
characters in the same rhyme in old Yangzhou Dialect, but not in rhyme in
new Yangzhou Dialect." in my post here:
http://www.mitbbs.com/article/TVChinese/31222713_0.html
3. The pronouncation of Qing Dynasty is far from the 古汉语发音 already.
4. I did not say that "曹雪芹写诗写词是根据扬州话来押韵", it is your
conclusion, not mine. We were not taking the poem of 曹雪芹 at all. Please
take a look at the title of this orginal post. We were talking about the
poem of 黛玉. Please do not try to divert the discussion when you are making
mistakes.
Please remember that the basis of rhymes were and are always pronouncation and the change of pronouncations leads to different classifications of rhymes.
屋二沃都搬来了，那你知不知道诗韵跟词韵的差别？ 听没听说过一屋二沃通用？
话和粤语甚至更接近古汉语发音。但如果说曹雪芹写诗写词是根据扬州话来押韵，未免
有些本末倒置了。 |
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