w********2
发帖数: 632 | 1 莫斯科战役苏联靠的是1000辆左右的英援VALENTINE和MATILDA坦克，飞机是HURRICAN战
斗机，可能还有美援P40战机，苏联拆了2挺机枪，又用最大马力，所以发动机寿命短了
，火力弱了，但机动性能上P40和飓风就可以和BF109对抗了。VALENTINE和MATILDA坦克
比T34差，但相当于PANZE III，防御还是很有效的。 | w********2
发帖数: 632 | 2 当时西伯利亚的生力军只是提供人力，装备本来就不好，和德军没法比。没有英美援坦
克飞机反坦克炮，莫斯科早被打穿了。 | w********2
发帖数: 632 | 3 Publication Cover
Journal
The Journal of Slavic Military Studies
Volume 19, 2006 - Issue 2
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Original Articles
British “Lend-Lease” Tanks and the Battle for Moscow, November–December
1941—A Research Note
Alexander Hill
Pages 289-294 | Published online: 21 Sep 2006
Download citation https://doi.org/10.1080/13518040600697811
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Abstract
This research note suggests that those British tanks supplied to the Soviet
Union during the first months of the Great Patriotic War were, despite their
shortcomings, of considerably more significance to the Soviet war effort
than is generally accepted in the literature, highlighting the critical
resource situation faced by Soviet forces in the early winter of 1941.
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Published online: 14 Nov 2013 | w********2
发帖数: 632 | 4 https://forum.axishistory.com//viewtopic.php?t=145031
"By the end of the year the receipt of 361 British tanks was reported:
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/ ... neral1.htm
That doesn't mean, of course, that all made their way to teh front by 31.12.
41.
Just for comparison on 9 December 1941 the GABTU (Main Tank Administration)
reported that 324 tank were received from UK - 142 Mk-II and 182 Mk-III,
plus a convoy with 81 tank arrived to Archangelsk but hadn't been unloaded
yet. 166 tanks (94 medium and 72 light) were purchased in the USA of them 62
were shipped and were en route on 9 December.
Nikolay Biryukov (the comissar of the GABTU) gives the follwoing lists of
units equipped with foreign tanks in his records made around 20 November
1941:
139 Tank Battalion/146 Tank Brigade - 21 Mk-III
137 Tank Battalion/146 Tak Brigade - 21 Mk-III
138 Separate Tank Battalion - 15 Mk-II, 6 Mk-III
136 Separate Tank Battalion - 2 Mk-II, 9 Mk-III
131 Separate Tank Battalion - 21 Mk-II
132 Separate Tank Battlion - 2 Mk-II, 19 Mk-III
In addition 145 Tank Battalion had 10 British APC's but no tanks.
Of these units the 146th Tank Brigade was committed to actions in late
November near Istra north-west of Moscow, 136th Tank Battalion was committed
near Naro-Fominsk in early December having 10 T-34, 10 T-60, 3 Mk-II and 9
Mk-III and then served as one of organic battalions of the 20th Tank Brigade
(West Front). On 1 January 1942 the 131 Tank Battalion was in the 50th Army
, West Front which was south-west of Moscow, and 132 Tank Battalion - in the
South-West Front, don't know details about them. I couldn't trace the way
of the 138th Tank Battalion, it looks like it somehow disapeared. It's known
that one battalion equipped with Mk-IIs was attached to the 1st Guards Tank
Brigade in early December, probably it was 138th, but I'm not sure.
Probalby there were some other units of battalion strength sent to the front
by 1 January. As a conclusion LL tanks appeared on the front in late
November (it seems that 146 Tank Brigade was the first) and by the end of
the year there were several units comitted to action mainly in the region of
Moscow, but it doesn't seem that they played an extraordinary important
role. Some additional info:
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/ ... F41_42.htm
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/ ... atilda.htm" | w********2
发帖数: 632 | 5 "By the end of 1941, out of 750 promised
tanks, Britain had delivered 466, of which 259 were Valentines and 187
Matildas, the remainder apparently Tetrarch. Of these, 216 Valentines
and 145 Matildas had been supplied to the Red Army. With total Red
Army tank stocks, as of 31 December, consequently being in the region
of 7,700 according to Krivosheev (or 6,347 on 1 December according to
Suprun), of which only 1,400 were medium or heavy models, then
British deliveries to date represented in the region of only 6.5 percent of
total Red Army tank strength, but over 33 percent of medium and heavy
tanks, with British vehicles actually in Red Army hands representing
about 25 percent of medium and heavy tanks in service."
"According to the British Military Mission in Moscow, by 9 December
1941 about 90 British tanks had been in action with Soviet forces. On
20 November 1941 Biriukov reported that 137 and 139 Tank Battalions
of 146 Tank Brigade, along with 131 Independent Tank Battalion, had
been equipped with 21 Valentines each; 132 Independent Tank Battalion
had 19 Valentines and 2 Matildas; 138 Independent Tank Battalion had 15
Matildas and 6 Valentines; and 136 Independent Tank Battalion had 3
Matildas and 9 Valentines. Of these units, the British Military Mission
was referring to 146 Tank Brigade and 131, 136, and 138 Independent
Tank Battalions. The first of these units to have been in action seems to
have been 138 Independent Tank Battalion, which as part of 30 Army of
the Western Front, along with 24 and 145 Tank Brigades and 126 Independent
Tank Battalion, was involved in stemming the advance of German
units in the region of the Volga Reservoir to the north of Moscow in
late November. In fact the British intercepted German communications
indicating that German forces had first come into contact with British
tanks operated by the Soviets on 26 November 1941. More widely noted
are the exploits of 136 Independent Tank Battalion, part of a scratch
operational group of 33 Army of the Western Front, consisting of 18 Rifle
Brigade, two ski battalions, 5 and 20 Tank Brigades, and 140 Independent
Tank Battalion. The latter was combined with 136 Independent Tank Battalion
to produce a tank group of only 21 tanks, which was to operate with
the two ski battalions against German forces advancing to the west of
Moscow in early December. In action with the Western Front from early
December was 131 Independent Tank Brigade with 50 Army to the east
of Tula to the south of Moscow. Also seeing action was 146 Tank Brigade
with 16 Army of the Western Front from early December in the region of
Kriukovo to the immediate west of the Soviet capital.
According to Marshal P. A. Rotmistrov, at the end of November 1941
there were only 670 Soviet tanks, of which only 205 were heavy or
medium types, for the Fronts before Moscow, that is, the recently formed
Kalinin, Western, and South-Western Fronts. Most of this tank strength
was concentrated with the Western Front, with the Kalinin Front having
only two tank battalions (67 tanks) and the South-Western two tank
brigades (30 tanks). Alternative figures suggest that of 667 tanks with
frontline units of the Kalinin, the Western, and the right wing of the South-
Western Fronts as of 1 December 1941, 607 were with the Western Front,
including 205 which were KV series and T-34s; the Kalinin Front and the
right wing of the South-Western Front had 17 and 43 tanks respectively,
none of which apparently were KV series or T-34s. Either set of figures is
a significant improvement on the 141 heavy and medium tanks available
to the Western, Reserve, and Briansk Fronts before Moscow as of 1 October
1941. In the light of these statistics, it is reasonable to suggest that
British-supplied tanks made up in the region of 30 to 40 percent of the
heavy and medium tank strength of Soviet forces before Moscow at the
beginning of December 1941, and that they made up a significant proportion
of such vehicles available as reinforcements at this critical juncture." | w********2
发帖数: 632 | 6 "It is reasonable to suggest that British-supplied tanks constituted in the
region of 30-40 per cent of the heavy and medium tank strength of Soviet
forces before Moscow at the beginning of December 1941, and that they made
up a significant proportion of such vehicles available as reinforcements at
this critical juncture." | w********2
发帖数: 632 | 7 According to research by a team of Soviet historians, the Soviet Union lost
a staggering 20,500 tanks from June 22 to December 31, 1941. At the end of
November 1941, only 670 Soviet tanks were available to defend Moscow—that
is, in the recently formed Kalinin, Western, and Southwestern Fronts. Only
205 of these tanks were heavy or medium types, and most of their strength
was concentrated in the Western Front, with the Kalinin Front having only
two tank battalions (67 tanks) and the Southwestern Front two tank brigades
(30 tanks).
Given the disruption to Soviet production and Red Army losses, the Soviet
Union was understandably eager to put British armor into action as soon as
possible. According to Biriukov's service diary, the first 20 British tanks
arrived at the Soviet tank training school in Kazan on October 28, 1941, at
which point a further 120 tanks were unloaded at the port of Archangel in
northern Russia. Courses on the British tanks for Soviet crews started
during November as the first tanks, with British assistance, were being
assembled from their in-transit states and undergoing testing by Soviet
specialists.
The tanks reached the front lines with extraordinary speed. Extrapolating
from available statistics, researchers estimate that British-supplied tanks
made up 30 to 40 percent of the entire heavy and medium tank strength of
Soviet forces before Moscow at the beginning of December 1941, and certainly
made up a significant proportion of tanks available as reinforcements at
this critical point in the fighting. By the end of 1941 Britain had
delivered 466 tanks out of the 750 promised. | w********2
发帖数: 632 | | x*********3
发帖数: 1438 | 9 美援英援有用的话：
老蒋就不会输得那么惨
英国自己就不会输得那么惨
法国就不会输得那么惨 | d******a
发帖数: 32122 | 10 民主党政府因为老蒋不民主，内战不久就中断了援助
【在 x*********3 的大作中提到】
: 美援英援有用的话：
: 老蒋就不会输得那么惨
: 英国自己就不会输得那么惨
: 法国就不会输得那么惨
| f****r
发帖数: 5118 | 11 这些援助的飞机坦克，不用培训，士兵就会用吗，说明书都是英语吧，俄国人能最快速
度看懂 ？
而且培训一个飞行员很困难吧，坦克兵也不容易，怎么做到这点的 | w********2
发帖数: 632 | 12 英国派了很多技术顾问。坦克兵和飞行员苏联当时都有很多，就是好的飞机坦克不多，
这些技术兵都有底子。网上有苏联飞行员将军的回忆录讲这些的，说英国技术顾问留一
手，很多功能是苏联飞行员自己摸索出来的。苏联飞行员坦克兵不笨，坦克也有好型号
，战斗机好型号比英美德国还是差些，但当时快被打趴下了，没多少生产能力。
【在 f****r 的大作中提到】
: 这些援助的飞机坦克，不用培训，士兵就会用吗，说明书都是英语吧，俄国人能最快速
: 度看懂 ？
: 而且培训一个飞行员很困难吧，坦克兵也不容易，怎么做到这点的
| m********s
发帖数: 55301 | 13 希特勒围了莫斯科6个多月，英援的上千辆坦克飞机是怎么运进莫斯科城的呢？
【在 w********2 的大作中提到】
: 莫斯科战役苏联靠的是1000辆左右的英援VALENTINE和MATILDA坦克，飞机是HURRICAN战
: 斗机，可能还有美援P40战机，苏联拆了2挺机枪，又用最大马力，所以发动机寿命短了
: ，火力弱了，但机动性能上P40和飓风就可以和BF109对抗了。VALENTINE和MATILDA坦克
: 比T34差，但相当于PANZE III，防御还是很有效的。
| P****R
发帖数: 22479 | 14 那么西伯利亚兵团怎么进红场检阅的？
【在 m********s 的大作中提到】
: 希特勒围了莫斯科6个多月，英援的上千辆坦克飞机是怎么运进莫斯科城的呢？
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