T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 1 It's an old question, and I want to ask it specifically again.
I didn't believe 六道, and I still don't believe Hell or Heaven. But I am
wondering whether the animals have souls and how those souls compare with
human souls.
http://www.mitbbs.com/pc/pccon_6933_184855.html
发信人: wh (wh), 信区: Zhejiang
标 题: 两个电影：《哭泣的骆驼》，《企鹅的长征》
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Thu Sep 4 17:49:12 2008)
这两个都是National Geographic的feature films，场面壮观，情节感人。
《哭泣的骆驼》（The Story of the Weeping Camel）讲的是蒙古牧民家的一头母驼，
头胎难产，整整两天才生下驼羔子。初为人母的骆驼大受刺激，不理也不喂孩子。牧民
于是举行仪式，在凄楚的马头琴声中，女主人一边抚摸骆驼，一边唱起古老悲伤的游牧
民歌。骆驼在歌声中流下了眼泪，终于接受了自己的孩子。
音乐可以如此神奇地治愈动物的精神创伤，令人感叹生命的相通。影片很朴素，完全纪
实，没有煽情旁白，只有牧民的简单对白。很多游牧生活的细节很生动，比如忙碌的母
亲把蹒跚学步的女儿用绳子拦腰拴在床角，就像拴一头小羊。比如奶奶编织骆驼毛，像
妈妈给长发女儿编辫子一样娴熟亲切。还比如爷爷摆弄一台老式录音机，让小孙子到镇
上请马头琴师时，顺便买电池；小孙子在镇上人家看电视入了迷，回来让爸爸也买电视
。爷爷说what do you want to do with this devil? 到时候整天坐在电视前面发呆。
而影片结尾，家里还是添置了电视，小孙子的眼睛亮亮地笑。
高潮自然是女人的歌声和骆驼的眼泪。一个普通女牧民，怎么一开口就像德德玛一样，
嗓音高亢辽远，充满典型的蒙古歌的颤音。她的神情也有种饱经风霜的安详，很美。歌
词和旋律都像大草原一样简单。不知道她唱了啥，是不是在对骆驼说：
我们做女人的，生来就是命苦啊；
你就认命罢，认命罢。
接着是骆驼的眼睛特写：那么大，那么水汪汪，我第一次在敦煌骑骆驼时就很被它们打
动。但见那眼泪先是在眼眶打转，接着缓缓流下，最后是大颗大颗吧嗒吧嗒地砸到土里
。伴着苍凉的游牧歌声，凄凉的马头琴声，草原猎猎的风声——借用才子评论《企鹅的
长征》的结尾：
“那一刻，我有点儿要流泪的感觉……”
关于《企鹅的长征》，我去把才子的精华帖挖出来。
发信人: wh (wh), 信区: Zhejiang
标 题: Re: 两个电影：《哭泣的骆驼》，《企鹅的长征》
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Thu Sep 4 17:50:44 2008)
《企鹅的长征》（March of the Penguins）我一看开头，就觉得似曾相识，去翻精华
区，果然找到才子的影评。可惜才子发帖时，我还没来版上（我找到我的第一帖，是去
年2月15日，迟了一个月），不然印象会更深些。赞才子之敏感多情，我看这个电影虽
也感动，却没眼泪。我最喜欢的镜头，是企鹅mating的时候，双双相对低头，脖颈弯成
心形，如天鹅般优雅，一点不觉得胖；然后同时抬头，那么坚硬的长喙接吻，居然那么
温柔。后来三口之家团聚时，再现那一低头的温柔，心形当中却多了一个小企鹅，热烈
的爱转为平静的温馨。
发信人: joj (医生说我可以出院了), 信区: Zhejiang
标 题: 刚刚看了一部几乎为之流泪的电影
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Sun Jan 14 15:54:57 2007)
很久没有这种感觉了。居然让我一下子看了两遍...
好莱坞主流大片，偶尔也有些场景让人感动，让人心灵震撼，但那往往只是一瞬间的触
动，很快我们就被带回到那些惊险，刺激，血腥甚至可笑的主线。最后回想起来，那瞬
间的感动，也就只是被导演戏弄了一下。
但是，March of the penguins, 却自始至终让我被感动。本来以为这只是给孩子看的
科普片，所以一直也没有想去看的念头，只是稍稍有点好奇，为什么这部前年出的纪录
片会被不少媒体提到。今天看了，才知道为什么。
这不只是给孩子看着好玩的电影。
企鹅们在狂风肆虐的恶劣环境中，长途跋涉，象朝圣的人们一样，虔诚于天性的呼唤，
执著于生命的意义。雌雄企鹅间无私的合作，交替照看孩子，坚守承诺；还有企鹅群体
的默契配合，等等，让人不得不佩服自然的力量。
看着企鹅们在没有阳光，狂风暴雪的冰层上艰难地孵育孩子；有坚持不下来的，最后被
冻死或饿死。那一刻，真的很希望它们也能有人类一样的智力，能够知道挣脱天性的束
缚，不去选择生育的艰难，而是留在海水里好好享受。
当然，它们没有这样的智力，它们没有情感，它们只有被自然和天性驱使...
但是，当有些企鹅看到自己孩子被冻死，哀叫着，然后去抢夺别的企鹅的孩子的时候；
我不得不怀疑自己想当然的常识，它们是不是真的没有情感？
因为企鹅群体不允许这样的抢夺行为，所以那只不道德的企鹅最后往往会被别的企鹅制
服，不能得逞。既然这种抢夺行为只会是徒劳，为什么千百万年的自然选择没有把这种
没有意义的冲动淘汰掉？为什么失去孩子的企鹅不是坦然接受这个事实，赶紧回到海水
里，把自己养得身强力壮，那样至少明年成功养育孩子的希望会更大？
为什么？也许，它们除了被天性驱使之外，是有自己的情感的；所以，那一刻，它们情
不自禁...
那一刻，我有点儿要流泪的感觉...
标题：推荐 哭泣的骆驼
作者：pascaldechin
发表时间：2008-10-12
链接：http://www.mitbbs.com/pc/pccon_4073_47693.html
的确很赞。文豪的原文附在后面，我就不复述了。
斗胆续貂一下：
1) 是德国的片子，英文字幕，在蒙古国南部戈壁滩上拍得。
感觉蒙古国比内蒙古来说，蒙古文化要保留得好得多。
苏控时期被迫使用西里尔字母，现在又用回传统字母了。
不过里面老爷爷写信时似乎是从上到下从左到右写的，
（以前是中国式的从右到左），可能至少这方面是彻底革新了。
2）这个片子让我们了解到蒙古牧民生活的方方面面，
偏远地区的牧民实在太苦了，很原始，而镇上的则要
现代化许多，有电视，电脑游戏，建筑很好的学校，
里面有专职的音乐舞蹈教师。小孙子在那里流连忘返，
回到家里一家人还围坐左右让他讲述镇上情形，特别
好玩。
3）和文豪一样，我觉得那个媳妇的形象特别真实感人。
特别是她在镇上马头琴师的伴奏下，抚摸着不肯认子的母
骆驼唱蒙古长调那段。那马头琴虽然也是一种胡琴，但是
音色完全不像二胡的高亢激昂，却是低沉旷远，仿佛高原
般辽阔，拉的曲子像巴赫的无伴奏大提琴一样，而媳妇的
长调，就像唱诗班里的女高音独唱一般天籁。正是所谓
“天地为之久低昂”。骆驼也感动得落泪，终于认了亲子。
一家人方才如释重负，聚在一起庆祝。
4）庆祝的场面也很感人。大家围坐在帐篷内，琴师拉，
大家唱，很自然得有人唱高声部，有人唱低声部，配合
得非常默契，感觉就是巴赫的 Cantata。这里不得不对
蒙古人的音乐多说几句。首先这个影片里从到到尾不停
的是骆驼和羊的低沉的叫声和蒙古民歌的哼唱作为背景
音乐，两者出奇得协调，所以我总觉得蒙古音乐或多或少
是受到了草原上各种声音潜移默化的影响。再说乐器，那
马提琴仔细一看，长得颇像大提琴，演奏时也是放在两腿
之间，音域也比较低，那琴师拉的时候，我就觉得仿佛
是在听巴赫的 Cello Suites No. 5 里面的 Sarabande，
那个被马友友誉为旋律最简单，也是最深邃的曲子，也是
阿图的最爱之一。后来我就在想，要是能用马头琴来拉个
transcribed Cello Suites 该有多好呀。不禁感叹人类的
不同文化在本质上竟是如此相通，而且和自然界如此统一。
简单的就是最美的。
推荐大家都去看一看。：） | S**U
发帖数: 7025 | 2 According to Buddhism, humans and animals have no unchanging souls. Both have consciousness and emotions, though developed to different degrees. Both will be reborn endless times, unless they reach arahantship.
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: It's an old question, and I want to ask it specifically again.
: I didn't believe 六道, and I still don't believe Hell or Heaven. But I am
: wondering whether the animals have souls and how those souls compare with
: human souls.
: http://www.mitbbs.com/pc/pccon_6933_184855.html
: 发信人: wh (wh), 信区: Zhejiang
: 标 题: 两个电影：《哭泣的骆驼》，《企鹅的长征》
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Thu Sep 4 17:49:12 2008)
: 这两个都是National Geographic的feature films，场面壮观，情节感人。
: 《哭泣的骆驼》（The Story of the Weeping Camel）讲的是蒙古牧民家的一头母驼，
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 3 If it's not called a soul, what is that thing that reincarnated many times?
I don't mind what it's called, I just want to know whether you think those
reincarnations happen between humans and animals, and why.
As one mentioned earlier, time is an illusion, which I don't understand. How
do reincarnations relate to karma and time?
have consciousness and emotions, though developed to different degrees. Both
will be reborn endless times, unless they reach arahantship.
【在 S**U 的大作中提到】
: According to Buddhism, humans and animals have no unchanging souls. Both have consciousness and emotions, though developed to different degrees. Both will be reborn endless times, unless they reach arahantship.
| l****u
发帖数: 2166 | 4 你认为你是你的身体， 是不是？
如果我跟你说， 你的body不是你， 你还认为death 是个很特别的事件吗？
在极端一下， 如果告诉你， 你的body 跟你没有实质的关系， 就像你挂在墙上的一张
图片。
有一天， 那张照片突然不见了， 你觉得你自己突然就消失了吗？
?
How
Both
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: If it's not called a soul, what is that thing that reincarnated many times?
: I don't mind what it's called, I just want to know whether you think those
: reincarnations happen between humans and animals, and why.
: As one mentioned earlier, time is an illusion, which I don't understand. How
: do reincarnations relate to karma and time?
:
: have consciousness and emotions, though developed to different degrees. Both
: will be reborn endless times, unless they reach arahantship.
| a*****y
发帖数: 33185 | 5 那也只是人看着动物的行为，猜测它有soul
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: It's an old question, and I want to ask it specifically again.
: I didn't believe 六道, and I still don't believe Hell or Heaven. But I am
: wondering whether the animals have souls and how those souls compare with
: human souls.
: http://www.mitbbs.com/pc/pccon_6933_184855.html
: 发信人: wh (wh), 信区: Zhejiang
: 标 题: 两个电影：《哭泣的骆驼》，《企鹅的长征》
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Thu Sep 4 17:49:12 2008)
: 这两个都是National Geographic的feature films，场面壮观，情节感人。
: 《哭泣的骆驼》（The Story of the Weeping Camel）讲的是蒙古牧民家的一头母驼，
| d******e
发帖数: 4192 | 6 不觉得,会想知道,那张照片去哪里了?
【在 l****u 的大作中提到】
: 你认为你是你的身体， 是不是？
: 如果我跟你说， 你的body不是你， 你还认为death 是个很特别的事件吗？
: 在极端一下， 如果告诉你， 你的body 跟你没有实质的关系， 就像你挂在墙上的一张
: 图片。
: 有一天， 那张照片突然不见了， 你觉得你自己突然就消失了吗？
:
: ?
: How
: Both
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 7 That's right ah. That's me who is thinking about it.
I didn't believe the reincarnations in 六道, and I want to know how the
Buddhists think about reincarnations into animals, etc.
【在 a*****y 的大作中提到】
: 那也只是人看着动物的行为，猜测它有soul
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 8 I used to chat a lot on the topic of death on this board earlier, but you didn't seem to be here then. I will recap a bit here, and I'd love to see your comments.
No. I am not my body. I am not my thoughts nor emotions, either. I tend to believe (although I can't tell in what extent) reincarnations in human souls (if you call this thing a "soul", or in whatever name).
I accept death, my own and others, peacefully.
I accept the death of my friends and family members, who have passed away, that's what I am sure of.
Of course, as to my own death, it could be still an acceptance at mental or some emotional level so far.
I read the 西藏生死书 recently:
http://www.cnread.net/cnread1/zxzj/fuxue/xzss/
It says that there needs to be lots of practice to prepare oneself to recognize the awareness (or whatever you call that thing) through death, and it seems complicated. Except that, this book really is very good, and I agree with many opinions there.
I was told that the author of this book had something bad happened to him later though. Do you know what happened exactly?
Anyway, so, all in all, I don't think of death as dreadful. I mentioned this earlier to robbin, and she said that she felt that urgency to want to reach 解脱 in this life time, and hence the death seemed fearful. Well, I don't feel that need for that goal (to be clear, I am not a Buddhist, but I am interested in the wonders of humans and this world, etc), and I don't feel anything too special about death. This does not mean that I am idling. Rather, I believe that my choice at each present moment affects my future (karma), and I can make a choice of love at the now. I just don't care about going through reincarnations. Even Buddha died many life-times before he became a Buddha, what's wrong with reincarnations and what's the rush?
hehe, what is that second 你 in "你的body跟你"? I call it a soul, what do you call it?
no ah, as explained earlier. | f*******8
发帖数: 3612 | 9 这是一个真问题。这就是为什么我觉得你还不错。
这类问题再会背书，也是不懂。
不过这类真问题，通常都不是口头回答的，而是要
经过高人引导，通过实证自己去看的。
否则字面明白，实际是误导，因为听者心里想的完全是两码事。
对此，藏传有句话说：非时而说，狗都不如。
------------------
?
How
Both
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: If it's not called a soul, what is that thing that reincarnated many times?
: I don't mind what it's called, I just want to know whether you think those
: reincarnations happen between humans and animals, and why.
: As one mentioned earlier, time is an illusion, which I don't understand. How
: do reincarnations relate to karma and time?
:
: have consciousness and emotions, though developed to different degrees. Both
: will be reborn endless times, unless they reach arahantship.
| l****u
发帖数: 2166 | 10 现在我基本确定我是在帮倒忙。
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: That's right ah. That's me who is thinking about it.
: I didn't believe the reincarnations in 六道, and I want to know how the
: Buddhists think about reincarnations into animals, etc.
| | | T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 11 hehe. Thanks for trying to help! That's probably why I often felt like I was
hitting a wall when I reached here, because it was not yet ready for me. I'
ll wait to see then. Also, please don't feel bad for my misunderstanding in
anyway, if you think your are 帮倒忙. This 忙 could be what I need now.
Happy New Year!
【在 l****u 的大作中提到】
: 现在我基本确定我是在帮倒忙。
| o*******t
发帖数: 1634 | 12 不相信轮回的话 可能比较难理解
如果有缘 可以找个好的催眠师 也许会有机缘看到和感受到前世
也许那时候理解会有所不同吧
was
I'
in
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: hehe. Thanks for trying to help! That's probably why I often felt like I was
: hitting a wall when I reached here, because it was not yet ready for me. I'
: ll wait to see then. Also, please don't feel bad for my misunderstanding in
: anyway, if you think your are 帮倒忙. This 忙 could be what I need now.
: Happy New Year!
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 13 en, I don't know in what extent I believe reincarnation, but I tent to
believe it through PLR.
What I mean to ask is that now that people have memories through life-times
as humans, but never with any memory as other beings (animals or others),
why would Buddhism say that all beings are in reincarnations?
Well, I read Brain Weiss' book "Same Soul, Many Bodies" last month, and he
explicitly mentions the same evidence that no one remembers a life-time as
an animal, but his conclusion is that he can not say that there's no
reincarnations in animals, but just that he cannot know it for sure either
way.
Do you believe in the reincarnations as all beings (humans and animals, and
even 六道), and may I know why?
【在 o*******t 的大作中提到】
: 不相信轮回的话 可能比较难理解
: 如果有缘 可以找个好的催眠师 也许会有机缘看到和感受到前世
: 也许那时候理解会有所不同吧
:
: was
: I'
: in
| o*******t
发帖数: 1634 | 14 呵呵 是的 我相信 因为我从小就有一些模糊的前世记忆 可惜图像非常模糊，感觉更强
烈一些。
后来学了催眠 又记起另外一世。但我学的不好，也许跟体质也有关 记得也很模糊
但我的催眠老师和很多同学谈起过他们自己的前世经验 有的人体质或因缘比较好 可以
记得很多世。
不管从自己的经验还是看别人的体验 都让我无法否认轮回的存在。
至于记不记得动物这个问题 有的人是记得的，只不过确实比较少。
可能因为动物世意识比较弱 所以记忆也不强？（这个是我自己想的，请更了解的师兄
指正）。
不知道有没有回答到你的问题。但我觉得，就像上面很多师兄指出的那样，如果缘分到
了，你自然就会了解到。缘分不到的话，可能理解得弱一些。所以不用太着急。
times
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: en, I don't know in what extent I believe reincarnation, but I tent to
: believe it through PLR.
: What I mean to ask is that now that people have memories through life-times
: as humans, but never with any memory as other beings (animals or others),
: why would Buddhism say that all beings are in reincarnations?
: Well, I read Brain Weiss' book "Same Soul, Many Bodies" last month, and he
: explicitly mentions the same evidence that no one remembers a life-time as
: an animal, but his conclusion is that he can not say that there's no
: reincarnations in animals, but just that he cannot know it for sure either
: way.
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 15 "至于记不记得动物这个问题 有的人是记得的，只不过确实比较少。"
hehe, that's the difference here. I thought that no-one had such memories as
being animals. Is there any?
Well, after all, this question does not matter to my life right now, and I'
ll wait to see. Thanks for sharing!
兄指正）。
【在 o*******t 的大作中提到】
: 呵呵 是的 我相信 因为我从小就有一些模糊的前世记忆 可惜图像非常模糊，感觉更强
: 烈一些。
: 后来学了催眠 又记起另外一世。但我学的不好，也许跟体质也有关 记得也很模糊
: 但我的催眠老师和很多同学谈起过他们自己的前世经验 有的人体质或因缘比较好 可以
: 记得很多世。
: 不管从自己的经验还是看别人的体验 都让我无法否认轮回的存在。
: 至于记不记得动物这个问题 有的人是记得的，只不过确实比较少。
: 可能因为动物世意识比较弱 所以记忆也不强？（这个是我自己想的，请更了解的师兄
: 指正）。
: 不知道有没有回答到你的问题。但我觉得，就像上面很多师兄指出的那样，如果缘分到
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