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jym2307 (罪魁) 于 (Tue Nov 1 17:30:19 2011, 美东) 提到:
1:1耶稣基督的仆人保罗，奉召为使徒，特派传神的福音。
1:2这福音是神从前藉众先知，在圣经上所应许的。
1:3论到他儿子，我主耶稣基督。按肉体说，是从大卫后裔生的。
1:4按圣善的灵说，因从死里复活，以大能显明是神的儿子。
1:5我们从他受了恩惠，并使徒的职分，在万国之中叫人为他的名信服真道。
1:6其中也有你们这蒙召属耶稣基督的人。
1:7我写信给你们在罗马为神所爱，奉召作圣徒的众人。愿恩惠平安，从我们的父神，
并主耶稣基督，归与你们。
1：1 首先讲到保罗的身份，是耶稣基督的仆人，是使徒，而他的职责就是传“神的福
音”。一句话，保罗言简意赅的描述了自己的身份和使命。
1：2 其次保罗讲到了福音与旧约的关系，是承传的关系，是在旧约中就应许了的福音。
1：3 按旧约说，耶稣基督是大卫后裔，应验了旧约的预言和神的应许。参见撒母耳记
下7：12
1：4 按新约说，耶稣以复活显明自己是神的儿子。
1：5 保罗自己首先是蒙恩的人，其次从神那里领受了使徒的职分，作为他蒙召的使命
，在万国中传扬真道。而这真道的目的就是让人因耶稣的名归向神。
1：6 话锋一转，谈到授信的对象，罗马教会的信徒
1：7 祝福
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BHistory (往者的影子) 于 (Tue Nov 1 17:33:47 2011, 美东) 提到:
我觉着这样好，弟兄可以继续，我们两边都读，才有新的可学的东西。
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windking (Mr Doctor) 于 (Tue Nov 1 17:36:27 2011, 美东) 提到:
弟兄你是不是可以多说一点自己的感触？
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jym2307 (罪魁) 于 (Tue Nov 1 17:38:30 2011, 美东) 提到:
解经的步骤是，观察，解释，应用
你说的是“感触”是不是“应用”的意思？
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windking (Mr Doctor) 于 (Tue Nov 1 17:57:06 2011, 美东) 提到:
包括解释和应用。
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jym2307 (罪魁) 于 (Tue Nov 1 17:58:33 2011, 美东) 提到:
一步步来
你对于“客观解释”部分有没有不同意见？
然后我再在“客观解释”的基础上，展开“应用和感触”
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windking (Mr Doctor) 于 (Tue Nov 1 18:17:31 2011, 美东) 提到:
解释当然要客观，必须以圣经原意为基础。所以我没有不同意见。
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jym2307 (罪魁) 于 (Tue Nov 1 18:21:59 2011, 美东) 提到:
我的"感触"就是,保罗清楚的知道,自己的身份,自己的使命,自己活着的意义
而这往往是今天信徒所最为缺乏的,也是软弱的一个原因
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jym2307 (罪魁) 于 (Tue Nov 1 18:23:49 2011, 美东) 提到:
这是这段经文自身的含义
所以我读经的习惯是,先明白经文本身要传递的意思
而不是立刻把精力放在经文的"引申"上面,那样有点舍本逐末
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qiaqiafeng ($_$) 于 (Tue Nov 1 20:01:48 2011, 美东) 提到:
jym弟兄，我觉得就叫《和合本》Chinese Union Version查经比较好，福音派太大了，
而且有自由福音派，不属于正统。
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jym2307 (罪魁) 于 (Tue Nov 1 20:04:22 2011, 美东) 提到:
我是考虑版上的基督徒大多是无宗派的
所以也只有福音派的名字能包含所有人
而且我们也不一定只看和合本
或者有别的好一点的名字?
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renjie1967 (任大先生) 于 (Tue Nov 1 21:04:36 2011, 美东) 提到:
我没有看注释，就着直观感觉发言：
虽然保罗开头说的是“福音”，但是在这一段他强调的是“权柄”。他传主的福音，有
两个权柄---来自于神的和来自于人的。1：1-1：4是神的权柄，1：5是因着“从他受了
恩惠”得到的使徒职分---人的权柄。
这里给了我一个看见：我们行事为人，有没有得到“权柄”？没有神来的权柄，我们就
可能落在不义中，没有人给的权柄，我们就是在“干犯”神。
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qiaqiafeng ($_$) 于 (Tue Nov 1 21:24:22 2011, 美东) 提到:
很赞同弟兄的分享。保罗这里强调使徒的权柄和职分。正如加拉太书保罗提到他当面斥
责矶法，这里说到两个权柄。历史上有一小段时间，教会里有人质疑保罗的使徒职分和
权柄，保罗开宗明义说到这个权柄，从而他的文字是神的默示。
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jym2307 (罪魁) 于 (Tue Nov 1 21:24:47 2011, 美东) 提到:
权柄的问题，更多的是在加拉太1章，和林后11章讲的
这里权柄不是重点
职分是重点
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qiaqiafeng ($_$) 于 (Tue Nov 1 21:26:32 2011, 美东) 提到:
这么说我蒙对了一半，太受打击了。
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jym2307 (罪魁) 于 (Tue Nov 1 21:29:34 2011, 美东) 提到:
要严谨
再严谨
尤其是为真道争辩的时候
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qiaqiafeng ($_$) 于 (Tue Nov 1 21:30:55 2011, 美东) 提到:
嗯，所以我现在比较少说话。呵呵
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renjie1967 (任大先生) 于 (Tue Nov 1 21:32:10 2011, 美东) 提到:
不好意思，弟兄，你说的“职分”，就是我说的权柄之一：来源于人的权柄（使徒）。
你说的是现象，我说的是本质。
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jym2307 (罪魁) 于 (Tue Nov 1 21:36:24 2011, 美东) 提到:
两者的本质都只有一个，就是神的呼召
没有神主动的拣选和呼召，那就根本谈不上“职分”和“权柄”
“职分”和“权柄”是平行的
好比我给你看大门的工作，同时也把钥匙给你
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renjie1967 (任大先生) 于 (Tue Nov 1 21:45:30 2011, 美东) 提到:
我说你话怎么这么多？顺服权柄，顺服职分--我们今天查的是什么？
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littletshirt (小仙鹤) 于 (Tue Nov 1 23:50:23 2011, 美东) 提到:
Second this.
Best discussion series since I joined this forum. Keep It up
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mapleinca (风继续吹) 于 (Wed Nov 2 10:31:12 2011, 美东) 提到:
非常赞同！
有次查revelation时，我问主坐前七灵是哪七灵；结果很多都说就是圣灵，七只是完全
之数；我很疑惑，想那为什么不用holy spirit。
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windking (Mr Doctor) 于 (Wed Nov 2 10:50:29 2011, 美东) 提到:
七灵指在启示录的时代，神的行动需要七倍加强的灵，这灵当然就是圣灵。将其解为天
使或者别的灵体是错误的，用其对应以赛亚书十一2也显得牵强。
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libaijia (青花瓷) 于 (Wed Nov 2 11:16:44 2011, 美东) 提到:
神行动需要7倍的灵？那没有这个7倍的灵就转不动了，那还叫神吗？
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windking (Mr Doctor) 于 (Wed Nov 2 11:19:28 2011, 美东) 提到:
我上午还有点时间，跟你探讨一下吧。这样，请你首先说一下，你如何理解七灵，然后
我再跟你解释神为什么需要七倍加强的灵，行不行？
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libaijia (青花瓷) 于 (Wed Nov 2 11:37:10 2011, 美东) 提到:
启示录是最难解释的。
7灵我认为就是圣灵。神是三一的真神，7灵在位格上是也是一灵，是神属性和功用的彰
显（弗4：4）。绝非有人所说的7倍加强的灵。
在我看来神是全能的，不像你所说的神需要，不需要可能就行动不便利了。
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happybird (家有乖宝小丹尼) 于 (Wed Nov 2 11:39:07 2011, 美东) 提到:
Rebecca姊妹,七灵指的是一个灵, 代表圣灵, 七在圣经中代表完全圆满的意思. 弟兄说
的七倍加强的灵指的是圣灵的七倍功效, 参见以赛亚书11:2-3节.
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windking (Mr Doctor) 于 (Wed Nov 2 11:40:12 2011, 美东) 提到:
那为什么要用七呢？就像刚才有人问到的，为什么不直接用圣灵？
另外注意：七倍加强的灵也指的是圣灵。
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libaijia (青花瓷) 于 (Wed Nov 2 11:41:40 2011, 美东) 提到:
姐妹的意思和我基本一样的，那是神的7个属性和功用的彰显。圣灵本来就有的。
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libaijia (青花瓷) 于 (Wed Nov 2 11:46:06 2011, 美东) 提到:
启示录谈的是神的7灵。到你那里就变成了7倍加强的灵，不要偷换概念。那五旬节圣灵降临变弱了，少了6倍？照你的意思来理解
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windking (Mr Doctor) 于 (Wed Nov 2 11:54:01 2011, 美东) 提到:
对呀，这就是问题，为什么要在启示录提七灵，不在使徒行传提？这是为什么？
灵降临变弱了，少了6灵？照你的意思来理解
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blackdragon (黑龙) 于 (Wed Nov 2 11:57:42 2011, 美东) 提到:
我觉得启示录里说的七灵还有七星是在说神本质的性项。神是灵，所以神本质的存在形
式就是以灵的形式存在。七灵中的七也不是简单化和物质世界的数字一样的7个，而是
灵境界的“七”。就好比三维空间的立方体和七位空间的立方体都叫立方体，但是七维
空间中的立方体对我们来说是很抽象的，不能简单用我们可以看见的三维内的立方体图
像往上套。
七灵和圣灵的关系是：圣灵是神的位格，七灵不是位格。
打个比方帮助理解：中国的土壤一般认为是5色土，就是五种不同颜色的土壤。那我们
在说五色土这个名词的时候可以代表中国大地，故乡的土，有这个含义。我们说五种颜
色的土的时候呢？是在说中国的土壤主要有五种不同颜色。圣灵和七灵之间的关系就类
似五色土这个名词和五中颜色的土壤之间的关系。
这个比方只是帮助理解，不要简单化成，圣灵由七灵组成的。灵境界的奥秘我们回归灵
境界以前很多都只能凭信心接受，不用执着于到底是一个什么样的关系，能不能形象化
，它要能完全的形象化就不叫灵境界了，就是物质界了。
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libaijia (青花瓷) 于 (Wed Nov 2 12:02:32 2011, 美东) 提到:
我已经说了我对7灵的理解了。你不是要解释7灵需要加抢吗？
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libaijia (青花瓷) 于 (Wed Nov 2 12:09:05 2011, 美东) 提到:
没关系，我也想看看召会的灵意解经要怎么样来解释。
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windking (Mr Doctor) 于 (Wed Nov 2 12:19:14 2011, 美东) 提到:
在某种程度同意这种说法。在圣经中，七这个数字指称范围很广，因此对启示录的这个
数字不应做具体属性的对应，比如对应到赛十一2。启示录五章明言，羔羊有七角和七
眼，就是神的七灵，奉差遣往全地去。这就对应于撒迦利亚书四10，这七眼乃是耶和华
的眼睛，遍察全地。可见这里的七乃是指着神的工作而言。
那么神的工作为什么需要七灵呢？在出埃及二十五章里有七灯，是为着建造帐幕。在撒
迦利亚三至四章的七眼和七灯则是为了恢复神的建造。同样，启示录里的七灵，就是在
宝座前的七灯和羔羊的七眼， 也是为着建造新耶路撒冷。为着建造，神需要圣灵发挥
出七倍的功效，所以在这里称祂为七倍加强。
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littletshirt (小仙鹤) 于 (Wed Nov 2 12:20:38 2011, 美东) 提到:
"The Holy Spirit, called the seven spirits, not seven in number, nor in
nature, but the infinite perfect Spirit of God, in whom there is a diversity
of gifts and operations " Matthew Henry's Commentary on Bible
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/henry/mhc6.Rev.ii.html
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windking (Mr Doctor) 于 (Wed Nov 2 12:20:53 2011, 美东) 提到:
灵意解经同样是以经解经，只是要找出背后的“灵意”而已，不是自己在那里乱猜。
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littletshirt (小仙鹤) 于 (Wed Nov 2 12:29:11 2011, 美东) 提到:
JC's comment on Romans 1;1
With regard to the word Paul, as it is a subject
of no such moment as ought to detain us, and as nothing can be said
which has not been mentioned by other expounders, I should say nothing,
were it not proper to satisfy some at small expense without being
tedious to others; for the subject shall be despatched in a very few
words.
They who think that the Apostle attained this name as a trophy for
having brought Sergius, the proconsul, to the faith of Christ, are
confuted by the testimony of Luke, who shows that he was so called
before that time. (Acts 13:7, 9.) Nor does it seem probable to me, that
it was given him when he was converted to Christ; though this idea so
pleased Augustine, that he took occasion refinedly to philosophize on
the subject; for he says, that from a proud Saul he was made a very
little (parvulum [12] ) disciple of Christ. More probable is the
opinion of Origen, who thought that he had two names; for it is not
unlikely to be true, that his name, Saul, derived from his kindred, was
given him by his parents to indicate his religion and his descent; and
that his other name, Paul, was added, to show his right to Roman
citizenship; [13] they would not have this honor, then highly valued,
to be otherwise than made evident; but they did not so much value it as
to withhold a proof of his Israelitic descent. But he has commonly
taken the name Paul in his Epistles, and it may be for the following
reasons: because in the churches to which he wrote, it was more known
and more common, more acceptable in the Roman empire, and less known
among his own nation. It was indeed his duty to avoid the foolish
suspicion and hatred under which the name of a Jew then labored among
the Romans and in their provinces, and to abstain from inflaming the
rage of his own countrymen, and to take care of himself.
A servant of Jesus Christ, etc. -- He signalizes himself with these
distinctions for the purpose of securing more authority to his
doctrine; and this he seeks to secure by two things -- first, by
asserting his call to the Apostleship; [14] and secondly, by showing
that his call was not unconnected with the Church of Rome: for it was
of great importance that he should be deemed an Apostle through God's
call, and that he should be known as one destined for the Roman Church.
He therefore says, that he was a servant of Christ, and called to the
office of an Apostle, thereby intimating that he had not presumptuously
intruded into that office. He then adds, that he was chosen, (selectum
-- selected, [15] ) by which he more fully confirms the fact, that he
was not one of the people, but a particular Apostle of the Lord.
Consistently with this, he had before proceeded from what was general
to what was particular, as the Apostleship was an especial service; for
all who sustain the office of teaching are to be deemed Christ's
servants, but Apostles, in point of honor, far exceed all others. But
the choosing for the gospel, etc., which he afterwards mentions,
expresses the end as well as the use of the Apostleship; for he
intended briefly to show for what purpose he was called to that
function. By saying then that he was servant of Christ, he declared
what he had in common with other teachers; by claiming to himself the
title of an Apostle, he put himself before others; but as no authority
is due to him who willfully intrudes himself, he reminds us, that he
was appointed by God.
Then the meaning is, -- that Paul was a servant of Christ, not any kind
of servant, but an Apostle, and that by the call of God, and not by
presumptuous intrusion: then follows a clearer explanation of the
Apostolic office, -- it was ordained for the preaching of the Gospel.
For I cannot agree with those who refer this call of which he speaks to
the eternal election of God; and who understand the separation, either
that from his mother's womb, which he mentions in Galatians 1:15, or
that which Luke refers to, when Paul was appointed for the Gentiles:
but I consider that he simply glories in having God as the author of
his call, lest any one should think that he had through his own
rashness taken this honor to himself. [16]
We must here observe, that all are not fitted for the ministry of the
word; for a special call is necessary: and even those who seem
particularly fitted ought to take heed lest they thrust themselves in
without a call. But as to the character of the Apostolic and of the
Episcopal call, we shall consider it in another place. We must further
observe, that the office of an Apostle is the preaching of the gospel.
It hence appears what just objects of ridicule are those dumb dogs, who
render themselves conspicuous only by their mitre and their crook, and
boast themselves to be the successors of the Apostles!
The word, servant, imports nothing else but a minister, for it refers
to what is official. [17] I mention this to remove the mistake of those
who too much refine on this expression and think that there is here to
be understood a contrast between the service of Moses and that of
Christ.
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littletshirt (小仙鹤) 于 (Wed Nov 2 12:31:04 2011, 美东) 提到:
JC's comments on Romans 1;2
As the suspicion of being new
subtracts much from the authority of a doctrine, he confirms the faith
of the gospel by antiquity; as though he said, "Christ came not on the
earth unexpectedly, nor did he introduce a doctrine of a new kind and
not heard of before, inasmuch as he, and his gospel too, had been
promised and expected from the beginning of the world." But as
antiquity is often fabulous, he brings witnesses, and those approved,
even the Prophets of God, that he might remove every suspicion. He in
the third place adds, that their testimonies were duly recorded, that
is, in the Holy Scriptures.
We may learn from this passage what the gospel is: he teaches us, not
that it was promulgated by the Prophets but only promised. If then the
Prophets promised the gospel, it follows, that it was revealed, when
our Lord was at length manifested in the flesh. They are then mistaken
who confound the promises with the gospel, since the gospel is properly
the appointed preaching of Christ as manifested, in whom the promises
themselves are exhibited. [
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littletshirt (小仙鹤) 于 (Wed Nov 2 12:32:10 2011, 美东) 提到:
JC's comments on 1;3
Concerning his own Son, etc. -- This is a remarkable passage, by
which we are taught that the whole gospel is included in Christ, so
that if any removes one step from Christ, he withdraws himself from the
gospel. For since he is the living and express image of the Father, it
is no wonder, that he alone is set before us as one to whom our whole
faith is to be directed and in whom it is to center. It is then a
definition of the gospel, by which Paul expresses what is summarily
comprehended in it. I have rendered the words which follow, Jesus
Christ our Lord, in the same case; which seems to me to be most
agreeable with the context. We hence learn, that he who has made a due
proficiency in the knowledge of Christ, has acquired every thing which
can be learned from the gospel; and, on the other hand, that they who
seek to be wise without Christ, are not only foolish, but even
completely insane.
Who was made, etc. -- Two things must be found in Christ, in order that
we may obtain salvation in him, even divinity and humanity. His
divinity possesses power, righteousness, life, which by his humanity
are conveyed to us. Hence the Apostle has expressly mentioned both in
the Summary he gives of the gospel, that Christ was manifested in the
flesh -- and that in it he declared himself to be the Son of God. So
John says; after having declared that the Word was made flesh, he adds,
that in that flesh there was a glory as of the only-begotten Son of
God. (John 1:14.) That he specially notices the descent and lineage of
Christ from his ancestor David, is not superfluous; for by this he
calls back our attention to the promise, that we may not doubt but that
he is the very person who had been formerly promised. So well known was
the promise made to David, that it appears to have been a common thing
among the Jews to call the Messiah the Son of David. This then -- that
Christ did spring from David -- was said for the purpose of confirming
our faith.
He adds, according to the flesh; and he adds this, that we may
understand that he had something more excellent than flesh, which he
brought from heaven, and did not take from David, even that which he
afterwards mentions, the glory of the divine nature. Paul does further
by these words not only declare that Christ had real flesh, but he also
clearly distinguishes his human from his divine nature; and thus he
refutes the impious raving of Servetus, who assigned flesh to Christ,
composed of three untreated elements.
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littletshirt (小仙鹤) 于 (Wed Nov 2 12:34:07 2011, 美东) 提到:
JC's commetns on 1;4:
Declared [19] the Son of God, etc.: or, if you prefer, determined
(definitus); as though he had said, that the power, by which he was
raised from the dead, was something like a decree by which he was
proclaimed the Son of God, according to what is said in Psalm 2:7, "I
have this day begotten thee:" for this begetting refers to what was
made known. Though some indeed find here three separate evidences of
the divinity of Christ -- "power," understanding thereby miracles --
then the testimony of the Spirit -- and, lastly, the resurrection from
the dead -- I yet prefer to connect them together, and to reduce these
three things to one, in this manner -- that Christ was declared the Son
of God by openly exercising a real celestial power, that is, the power
of the Spirit, when he rose from the dead; but that this power is
comprehended, when a conviction of it is imprinted on our hearts by the
same Spirit. The language of the Apostle well agrees with this view;
for he says that he was declared by power, because power, peculiar to
God, shone forth in him, and uncontestably proved him to be God; and
this was indeed made evident by his resurrection. Paul says the same
thing in another place; having stated, that by death the weakness of
the flesh appeared, he at the same time extols the power of the Spirit
in his resurrection; (2 Corinthians 13:4) This glory, however, is not
made known to us, until the same Spirit imprints a conviction of it on
our hearts. And that Paul includes, together with the wonderful energy
of the Spirit, which Christ manifested by rising from the dead, the
testimony which all the faithful feel in their hearts, is even evident
from this -- that he expressly calls it the Spirit of Holiness; as
though he had said, that the Spirit, as far as it sanctifies, confirms
and ratifies that evidence of its power which it once exhibited. For
the Scripture is wont often to ascribe such titles to the Spirit, as
tend to illustrate our present subject. Thus He is called by our Lord
the Spirit of Truth, on account of the effect which he mentions; (John
14:17)
Besides, a divine power is said to have shone forth in the resurrection
of Christ for this reason -- because he rose by his own power, as he
had often testified:
"Destroy this temple, and in three days
I will raise it up again," (John 2:19;)
"No man taketh it from me," etc.; (John 10:18)
For he gained victory over death, (to which he yielded with regard to
the weakness of the flesh,) not by aid sought from another, but by the
celestial operation of his own Spirit.
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littletshirt (小仙鹤) 于 (Wed Nov 2 12:36:09 2011, 美东) 提到:
5. Through whom we have received, etc. -- Having completed his
definition of the gospel, which he introduced for the recommendation of
his office, he now returns to speak of his own call; and it was a great
point that this should be proved to the Romans. By mentioning grace and
apostleship apart, he adopts a form of speech, [20] which must be
understood as meaning, gratuitous apostleship or the favor of the
apostleship; by which he means, that it was wholly through divine
favor, not through his own worthiness, that he had been chosen for so
high an office. For though it has hardly any thing connected with it in
the estimation of the world, except dangers, labors, hatred, and
disgrace; yet before God and his saints, it possesses a dignity of no
common or ordinary kind. It is therefore deservedly counted a favor. If
you prefer to say, "I have received grace that I should be an Apostle,"
the sense would be the same. [21]
The expression, on account of his name, is rendered by Ambrose, "in his
name," as though it meant, that the Apostle was appointed in the place
of Christ to preach the gospel, according to that passage, "We are
ambassadors for Christ," etc. (2 Corinthians 5:20.) Their opinion,
however, seems better, who take name for knowledge; for the gospel is
preached for this end -- that we may believe on the name of the Son of
God. (John 3:23.) And Paul is said to have been a chosen vessel, to
carry the name of Christ among the Gentiles. (Acts 9:15.) On account
then of his name, which means the same, as though he had said, that I
might make known what Christ is. [22]
For the obedience of faith, etc. -- That is, we have received a command
to preach the gospel among all nations, and this gospel they obey by
faith. By stating the design of his calling, he again reminds the
Romans of his office, as though he said, "It is indeed my duty to
discharge the office committed to me, which is to preach the word; and
it is your duty to hear the word and willingly to obey it; you will
otherwise make void the vocation which the Lord has bestowed on me."
We hence learn, that they perversely resist the authority of God and
upset the whole of what he has ordained, who irreverently and
contemptuously reject the preaching of the gospel; the design of which
is to constrain us to obey God. We must also notice here what faith is;
the name of obedience is given to it, and for this reason -- because
the Lord calls us by his gospel; we respond to his call by faith; as on
the other hand, the chief act of disobedience to God is unbelief, I
prefer rendering the sentence, "For the obedience of faith," rather
than, "In order that they may obey the faith;" for the last is not
strictly correct, except taken figuratively, though it be found once in
the Acts 6:7. Faith is properly that by which we obey the gospel. [23]
Among all nations, etc. It was not enough for him to have been
appointed an Apostle, except his ministry had reference to some who
were to be taught: hence he adds, that his apostleship extended to all
nations. He afterwards calls himself more distinctly the Apostle of the
Romans, when he says, that they were included in the number of the
nations, to whom he had been given as a minister. And further, the
Apostles had in common the command to preach the gospel to all the
world; and they were not, as pastors and bishops, set over certain
churches. But Paul, in addition to the general undertaking of the
apostolic function, was constituted, by a special appointment, to be a
minister to proclaim the gospel among the Gentiles. It is no objection
to this, that he was forbidden to pass through Macedonia and to preach
the word in Mysia: for this was done, not that there were limits
prescribed to him, but that he was for a time to go elsewhere; for the
harvest was not as yet ripe there.
Ye are the called of Jesus Christ, etc. He assigns a reason more nearly
connected with them -- because the Lord had already exhibited in them
an evidence by which he had manifested that he had called them to a
participation of the gospel. It hence followed, that if they wished
their own calling to remain sure, they were not to reject the ministry
of Paul, who had been chosen by the same election of God. I therefore
take this clause, "the called of Jesus Christ," as explanatory, as
though the particle "even" were inserted; for he means, that they were
by calling made partakers of Christ. For they who shall be heirs of
eternal life, are chosen by the celestial Father to be children in
Christ; and when chosen, they are committed to his care and protection
as their shepherd. [24]
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Eloihim (真神) 于 (Wed Nov 2 12:37:51 2011, 美东) 提到:
哈哈！！
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littletshirt (小仙鹤) 于 (Wed Nov 2 12:40:55 2011, 美东) 提到:
7. To all of you who are at Rome, etc. By this happy arrangement he
sets forth what there is in us worthy of commendation; he says, that
first the Lord through his own kindness made us the objects of his
favor and love; and then that he has called us; and thirdly, that he
has called us to holiness: but this high honor only then exists, when
we are not wanting to our call.
Here a rich truth presents itself to us, to which I shall briefly
refer, and leave it to be meditated upon by each individual: Paul does
by no means ascribe the praise of our salvation to ourselves, but
derives it altogether from the fountain of God's free and paternal love
towards us; for he makes this the first thing -- God loves us: and what
is the cause of his love, except his own goodness alone? On this
depends our calling, by which in his own time he seals his adoption to
those whom he had before freely chosen. We also learn from this passage
that none rightly connect themselves with the number of the faithful,
except they feel assured that the Lord is gracious, however unworthy
and wretched sinners they may be, and except they be stimulated by his
goodness and aspire to holiness, for he hath not called us to
uncleanness, but to holiness. (1 Thessalonians 4:7.) As the Greek can
be rendered in the second person, I see no reason for any change.
Grace to you and peace, etc. Nothing is more desirable than to have God
propitious to us, and this is signified by grace; and then to have
prosperity and success in all things flowing from him, and this is
intimated by peace; for however things may seem to smile on us, if God
be angry, even blessing itself is turned to a curse. The very
foundation then of our felicity is the favor of God, by which we enjoy
true and solid prosperity, and by which also our salvation is promoted
even when we are in adversities. [25] And then as he prays to God for
peace, we must understand, that whatever good comes to us, it is the
fruit of divine benevolence. Nor must we omit to notice, that he prays
at the same time to the Lord Jesus Christ for these blessings. Worthily
indeed is this honor rendered to him, who is not only the administrator
and dispenser of his Father's bounty to us, but also works all things
in connection with him. It was, however, the special object of the
Apostle to show, that through him all God's blessings come to us. [26]
There are those who prefer to regard the word peace as signifying
quietness of conscience; and that this meaning belongs to it sometimes,
I do not deny: but since it is certain that the Apostle wished to give
us here a summary of God's blessings, the former meaning, which is
adduced by Bucer, is much the most suitable. Anxiously wishing then to
the godly what makes up real happiness, he betakes himself, as he did
before, to the very fountain itself, even the favor of God, which not
only alone brings to us eternal felicity but is also the source of all
blessings in this life.
__________________________________________________________________
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom38.v.i.html
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libaijia (青花瓷) 于 (Wed Nov 2 12:45:57 2011, 美东) 提到:
看样子你是不知道神的灵功用是什么。 你自己也同意你提出的7倍加强的灵就是圣灵。
那五旬节圣灵降临，少了6倍的功力了。你所说的都没有圣经依据。启示录的7灵哪儿写
了需要发挥7倍加强的功效。这都是你臆测的。
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windking (Mr Doctor) 于 (Wed Nov 2 12:48:06 2011, 美东) 提到:
你不妨把你的意思说出来。请你明言：为什么启示录这里要用七灵，而在使徒行传或者
别的地方都没有用？
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libaijia (青花瓷) 于 (Wed Nov 2 13:08:12 2011, 美东) 提到:
我觉得不需要去强解7灵，或者去给他加个称号变成7倍加强的灵。启示录很多东西人都
说不清楚。因为你又承认7倍加强的灵是圣灵，那么就会出现很多矛盾的地方，为什么
在其他提到圣灵的地方就不是7倍加强了，就圣灵出来了，还没加倍。
在启示录里面提到7灵，我个人理解是老约翰是12使徒中的最后死的一个，他因为亲眼
见到各种异像，比在使徒时代或者其他的任何时候见到的是最多的。神也给他很多恩典
，留他的命最长，看到启示录和最终的结局，他看的特别清楚，他一个一个的记录下来
，不敢有偏差，包括在主宝座前看到的。
出于【 在 windking (Mr Doctor) 的大作中提到: 】
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windking (Mr Doctor) 于 (Wed Nov 2 13:13:58 2011, 美东) 提到:
那么请问，你如何就可以认定这里的七灵是指的神的七个属性和功用？你没有给你的圣
经依据，我猜是以赛亚书十一2，对不对？请问这两处经节彼此间存在什么样的直接联
系？
你更提到说，老约翰是12使徒中的最后死的一个，神也给他很多恩典，留他的命最长，
看到启示录和最终的结局，他看的特别清楚，请问这跟他提到七灵有什么关系？以前的
使徒看不明白，现在约翰看明白了？但是按照你所说，以赛亚书不早就解释了吗，为什
么还需要约翰去看见？你这么说的圣经依据何在，还是你自己的遐想？
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libaijia (青花瓷) 于 (Wed Nov 2 13:22:05 2011, 美东) 提到:
以赛亚书解释的神的灵的一些功用和属性，两者的关系就是会看见7灵乃是与主在国度
中的工作相连结的灵，是圣灵在工作中7方面的彰显。
所以说不能强解啊。隐秘的事属于耶和华，神愿意让约翰亲眼看到7灵的样子是神的恩
典。
。【 在 windking (Mr Doctor) 的大作中提到: 】
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windking (Mr Doctor) 于 (Wed Nov 2 13:23:34 2011, 美东) 提到:
请你明说，这两处经节有没有直接联系？否则就是你在强解。
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libaijia (青花瓷) 于 (Wed Nov 2 13:25:57 2011, 美东) 提到:
我已经说了啊，是圣灵工作的彰显啊。当然有直接的联系。我看你的臆测是比较多的，
我才不会去强解7灵是7倍加强的灵，然后又说不出为啥在这加强了，在那又不加强了。
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windking (Mr Doctor) 于 (Wed Nov 2 13:29:36 2011, 美东) 提到:
你如何看出来的？请引用圣经经节说明。另外，你仍然没有回答：为什么只在启示录用
到七灵，刚才你说的只是你个人的见解，有没有圣经支持。
七倍加强的灵，我已经说明了，这是借助于撒迦利亚书等相关章节来说明。我一直都在
引用圣经章节说明，你却一直在说个人的见解。
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libaijia (青花瓷) 于 (Wed Nov 2 13:33:29 2011, 美东) 提到:
在以赛亚数11章1到3节。我在启示录没有看到7倍加强的灵，你怎么看见了？
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BlizzFlare (爱哭鬼冰火) 于 (Wed Nov 2 13:36:55 2011, 美东) 提到:
有没有谁在经文里面看到三位一体几个字了？
如果没有看到确切的经文，还是不要强解的比较好。。。
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windking (Mr Doctor) 于 (Wed Nov 2 13:53:33 2011, 美东) 提到:
我们说“七倍加强的灵”英文是sevenfold intensified spirits，请你仔细去看诸多
解经教师对这条经节的注释，他们是不是都是在用sevenfold。如果说圣灵是sevenfold
，是不是intensified？他们有多少同意此处就是对应于以赛亚书十一2？
说回来，以赛亚书十一2说，耶和华的灵必住在他身上、就是使他有智慧和聪明的灵、
谋略和能力的灵、知识和敬畏耶和华的灵。 明显后面六个方面是在说明前一个耶和华
的灵，怎么能够将祂们混为一谈？
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blackdragon (黑龙) 于 (Wed Nov 2 13:58:48 2011, 美东) 提到:
我也觉得别强解，知道那是神的奥秘就可以了。
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libaijia (青花瓷) 于 (Wed Nov 2 14:00:51 2011, 美东) 提到:
7倍加强的灵当然是不同意我的说法。我说7灵就是一个圣灵，我又没说是7个灵。行，
就按你6个方面来谈，也是圣灵的属性和彰显。你解决了五旬节圣灵降临，弱掉了6倍的问题了
没？不是7倍加强吗，一时加强，一时不加强的现象。
sevenfold
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jym2307 (罪魁) 于 (Wed Nov 2 14:03:50 2011, 美东) 提到:
鉴于
第一，七灵的问题跟这段圣经无关
第二，召会的新概念还有好几框子
所以我只简单回应一下关于“七灵”的问题
其实很简单，启示录是属于“启示文学”的范畴。圣经一共有七种文体，而对应于不同
的文体，有不同的解经思路与方式。如果用叙事体的方式，来解释诗歌体，一定会闹很
多的笑话。具体请参考“基督教释经学手册”
http://www.cclw.net/Bible/jdjsjxsc/htm/index.html
·第6章 叙事体
·第7章 诗体
·第8章 智慧文学
·第9章 预 言
·第10章 启示文学
·第11章 比 喻
·第12章 书 信
启示录谈到了很多的“七”，这是一种文法上的“工整结构”，但不代表说每一个“七
”都是确切的“七”个。例如“七碗”，重点在于神的“烈怒”，并不一定代表说就有
“七轮灾难”
对于“七灵”，重点在于和“七个教会”/“七星”相对应，表明基督是全体教会的元
首。如果一定要解释成“七个灵”，那么后面4：5的“七灯”和5：6的“七角七眼”，
就更乱套了。
所以，对应于不同的文体，要有不同的解释方法。叙事的方法，诗歌的方法，启示预言
的方法，都不一样。不能拿一个方法，去解释所有的经文，那是非常非常粗燥的解经。
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blackdragon (黑龙) 于 (Wed Nov 2 14:05:58 2011, 美东) 提到:
good
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windking (Mr Doctor) 于 (Wed Nov 2 14:11:45 2011, 美东) 提到:
圣灵七倍加强，当然还是一个。正如你吹气球，胀大多少倍，也还是一个。
圣灵为着建造，需要七倍加强，这是从出埃及记的七灯、撒迦利亚书的七眼与启示录的
对应关系来看，这些地方神都是为着祂的建造，比如帐幕、耶路撒冷与新耶路撒冷。这
是从经节之间的关联做的一个推断。在五旬节的时候，神并没有建造的工作，所以圣灵
并无加强的必要。
其实我们要注意，圣灵的加强不是为着祂自己，而是为着我们。因为圣灵本身就是神，
祂是无限的，不存在强弱的差别。只不过在建造的时期，神要使我们合一，成为祂团体
的彰显，需要更多分赐到我们里面。
的问题了
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jym2307 (罪魁) 于 (Wed Nov 2 14:14:22 2011, 美东) 提到:
自有永有，全权全能的神
居然还需要“七倍加强”
唉，这都是神马信仰啊！！！！！！
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windking (Mr Doctor) 于 (Wed Nov 2 14:20:50 2011, 美东) 提到:
拜托，我已经解释了你问的问题。
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jym2307 (罪魁) 于 (Wed Nov 2 14:23:36 2011, 美东) 提到:
我建议你有空稍微浏览一下58楼的书
基本的解经概念要有，如果李常受没有教过你们这一方面的话
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windking (Mr Doctor) 于 (Wed Nov 2 14:44:44 2011, 美东) 提到:
好吧，那用弟兄你的原则，你觉得利百加说七灵是指以赛亚书十一2，这样对不对？
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jym2307 (罪魁) 于 (Wed Nov 2 14:51:15 2011, 美东) 提到:
神的灵只有一个，就是“圣灵”
赛11：2那里说的都是一个灵，描述神的灵不同的属性，例如智慧，知识，等等
就好比说圣灵的九种果子一样，不是说真的有9个果子，而是说圣灵改变的生命，在这
九个方面都有所体现
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libaijia (青花瓷) 于 (Wed Nov 2 14:53:59 2011, 美东) 提到:
555，我现在深深体会你说的被洗脑的后果是什么。
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windking (Mr Doctor) 于 (Wed Nov 2 14:56:55 2011, 美东) 提到:
请你明说，利百加这样解对不对？
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windking (Mr Doctor) 于 (Wed Nov 2 14:58:13 2011, 美东) 提到:
姊妹，如果你就是要在这里说风凉话，好讥诮的话，请你打住。这对于问题的探讨并无
帮助。
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jym2307 (罪魁) 于 (Wed Nov 2 15:00:45 2011, 美东) 提到:
.....
这个用词么，还是要谨慎.....
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jym2307 (罪魁) 于 (Wed Nov 2 15:02:03 2011, 美东) 提到:
47/49楼
跟我说的是一个意思吧？
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libaijia (青花瓷) 于 (Wed Nov 2 15:06:09 2011, 美东) 提到:
好了好了，我说错了。
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Eloihim (真神) 于 (Wed Nov 2 15:12:32 2011, 美东) 提到:
魁爺說得太好了！
不過一個神七個靈也挺好笑的。
你們繼續！
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windking (Mr Doctor) 于 (Wed Nov 2 15:15:33 2011, 美东) 提到:
没关系啦，要在平时你说说也就罢了，我是为了这个帖子着想。要是变成一个互相指责
的贴子，就失去本意了。
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windking (Mr Doctor) 于 (Wed Nov 2 15:23:32 2011, 美东) 提到:
你没有回答为什么说这里的七灵指的是以赛亚书十一2，而不是别处，比如加五22，这
里提到圣灵有诸多果子。
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windking (Mr Doctor) 于 (Wed Nov 2 15:27:12 2011, 美东) 提到:
其实这是一个小问题，就先打住吧，行不行？
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jym2307 (罪魁) 于 (Wed Nov 2 15:31:16 2011, 美东) 提到:
反正我要说的58楼都说了
而且不是小问题
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windking (Mr Doctor) 于 (Wed Nov 2 16:34:06 2011, 美东) 提到:
我说的是七灵是否联系于以赛亚书十一2的问题。
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jym2307 (罪魁) 于 (Wed Nov 2 16:37:09 2011, 美东) 提到:
都是相类似的表述/文学方式
描述的都是一个灵，的不同方面
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renjie1967 (任大先生) 于 (Wed Nov 2 21:05:35 2011, 美东) 提到:
魁兄，字面解经当然是我们的首选，但是《启示录》的大部分经节并不适用这个方法。
灵意解经最大的忌讳是执迷于自己的“看见”，因为神的道是活的。
我自己的直观看见与召会无关，也没看任何资料，我的感觉是这样的：
《启示录》写的是王得胜的启示与异象，以前的圣灵用的是单数，而这里不同，复数！
所以七灵可以不只一个含义（比如我们说的“一语双关”），七在这里一定有强调复数
的意思，虚指，并不一定就是“七倍”。
王得胜的时候，他已经得着他的百姓了，就是得胜的我们。那时，我们的灵与主的灵同
在，圣灵不再是“单数”了，主不再“孤单”了，父的国度成了，我们与主一道做王，
哈里路亚！
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jym2307 (罪魁) 于 (Wed Nov 2 21:10:25 2011, 美东) 提到:
如果其他的数字都是八，例如八号，八碗，八登台，八教会，八印
那么可能你说的有道理
但是，这几个启示录里最重要的数字都是七，那么就必须考虑到其他几个七的含义
灵意解经最大的忌讳就在于，文法上下的功夫太少，直接跳到“灵感”上来了
结果虽说是“一个圣灵所感”，却出来无数种解释
显然不是圣灵的作为
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renjie1967 (任大先生) 于 (Wed Nov 2 21:26:20 2011, 美东) 提到:
不是说“双关语”了吗？我只说了我看见了其中一个意思，灵意解是不可以“认定”的
，那很危险。 |
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