R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 1 Defining Calvinism
In spite of many differences of opinion among Calvinists today, Calvinism is
generally explained by the acronym, TULIP. Philip F. Congdon writes that "a
tulip is a beautiful flower, but bad theology. The fruit of the flower is a
ppealing; the fruit of the theology is appalling . . . works, as an inevitab
le result, are necessary for salvation. To be fair, Classical Calvinists usu
ally object to this by describing the gospel message as not `faith + works =
justification,' but `faith = justification + works' . . . . This is no more
than a word game. It is best seen in the old Calvinist saying: `You are sav
ed by faith alone, but the faith that saves you is never alone . . . . "' 64
Some readers may have never heard of TULIP. Others, while knowing that it ha
s something to do with Calvinism, find it difficult to remember what each le
tter stands for. Here, in brief, is a summary of common explanations. In eac
h case, in order to avoid the charge that they are not properly stated, they
are presented in the words of the major Calvinistic creeds or confessions:
"T" stands for Total Depravity: that man, because he is spiritually dead to
God "in trespasses and in sins" (Ephesians 2:1; Colossians 2:13), is incapab
le of responding to the gospel, though able to make other moral choices.
The Westminster Confession of Faith declares: "Our first parents ... became
dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and b
ody ... wholly inclined to all evil .... Man, by his fall into a state of si
n, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying s
alvation ... being altogether averse from that good, and dead to sin, is not
able by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereun
to." 65
"U" stands for Unconditional Election: that God decides on no basis whatsoev
er but by the mystery of His will to save some, called the elect, and to all
ow all others to go to Hell even though He could save them all if He so desi
red.
The Canons of Dort declare: "That some receive the gift of faith from God, a
nd others do not receive it proceeds from God's eternal decree ... [by] whic
h decree, he graciously softens the hearts of the elect, however obstinate,
and inclines them to believe, while he leaves the non-elect in his just judg
ment to their own wickedness and obduracy." 66
"L" stands for Limited Atonement: that these elect are the only ones for who
m Christ died in payment of the penalty for their sins and that His death is
efficacious for no others.
Dort declares: "For this was the sovereign counsel, and most gracious will a
nd purpose of God the Father, that ... the most precious death of his Son sh
ould extend to all the elect ... all those, and those only, who were from et
ernity chosen to salvation ... he purchased ... by his death." 67
"I" stands for Irresistible Grace: that God is able to cause whomever He wil
l to respond to the gospel, that without this enabling no one could do so, a
nd that He only provides this Irresistible Grace to the elect and damns the
rest.
The Westminster Confession states: "All those whom God hath predestinated un
to life, and those only, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time,
effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and de
ath . . . effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so, as they come mos
t freely, being made willing by his grace." 68
"P" stands for Perseverance of the saints: that God will not allow any of th
e elect to lose the salvation which He has sovereignly given them.
The Westminster Confession states: "They, whom God hath accepted in his Belo
ved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally n
or finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere
therein to the end, and be eternally saved. This perseverance of the saints
depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the degre
e of election. 69
William Cunningham speaks for most Calvinists when he writes that "No synod
or council was ever held in the church, whose decisions, all things consider
ed are entitled to more deference and respect [than the Synod of Dort]." 70
The Bible is our authority, not the beliefs of either John Calvin or Jacobus
Arminius, or any council, synod, assembly, or creed. In the following pages
, the points of TULIP are compared with the Bible, one point at a time, and
in order. | D******r
发帖数: 637 | 2 加尔文主义五要点的第一条T: 全然败坏，其实按照加尔文主义的精确定义，应该是全然
“无能”：人不能自己接受福音，除非上帝预定了这个人得救。就是说，预定得救在先
，人认识和接受福音在后。
加尔文的T告诉我们，在座的各位能不能有没有接受福音（加尔文主义的福音），都是已
经规定好了的。而不接受加尔文福音的，都是被上帝预定要下地狱的
上帝预定一个人下地狱，这个人就不会接受福音，他下地狱是为了彰显上帝的“公义”
温和的加尔文主义者会说这是个“奥秘”，即使是非加尔文派也会用同样的“两扇门”
的例子：
你进了天堂，门上写着“信而得救”，进去后，门后写着“预定得救”。
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【在 R*o 的大作中提到】
: Defining Calvinism
: In spite of many differences of opinion among Calvinists today, Calvinism is
: generally explained by the acronym, TULIP. Philip F. Congdon writes that "a
: tulip is a beautiful flower, but bad theology. The fruit of the flower is a
: ppealing; the fruit of the theology is appalling . . . works, as an inevitab
: le result, are necessary for salvation. To be fair, Classical Calvinists usu
: ally object to this by describing the gospel message as not `faith + works =
: justification,' but `faith = justification + works' . . . . This is no more
: than a word game. It is best seen in the old Calvinist saying: `You are sav
: ed by faith alone, but the faith that saves you is never alone . . . . "' 64
| D******r
发帖数: 637 | 3 加尔文主义的其他四条，都是出自T“全然无能”这一条。既然人类是毫无自主性的机器
，那么所有关于救恩的信条都与人无关了。
第二条U，无条件的拣选。根据加尔文主义，人类分两类，少的一类是被预定得救上天堂
的（得救=成圣，根据加尔文主义），多数人类是被预定下地狱的（讽刺的是，加尔文派
的子女都那么巧的被预定上天堂了）。而上帝作出的选择，是跟个人无关的，无论你是
否努力做个好人，这都跟上帝在创世之初的预定无关。
上帝“随机”选择一批少数人上天堂，“随机”选择一批大多数人下地狱，只是为了荣
耀自己，前者可以彰显上帝的“仁慈”，后者可以彰显上帝的“公义”
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64
【在 R*o 的大作中提到】
: Defining Calvinism
: In spite of many differences of opinion among Calvinists today, Calvinism is
: generally explained by the acronym, TULIP. Philip F. Congdon writes that "a
: tulip is a beautiful flower, but bad theology. The fruit of the flower is a
: ppealing; the fruit of the theology is appalling . . . works, as an inevitab
: le result, are necessary for salvation. To be fair, Classical Calvinists usu
: ally object to this by describing the gospel message as not `faith + works =
: justification,' but `faith = justification + works' . . . . This is no more
: than a word game. It is best seen in the old Calvinist saying: `You are sav
: ed by faith alone, but the faith that saves you is never alone . . . . "' 64
| D******r
发帖数: 637 | 4 加尔文主义的第三条L，有限的救赎，是加尔文主义者们自己都很难接受的。例如加尔文
派的Charles Spurgeon，他就说限定救赎是对上帝的极大亵渎
http://www.mitbbs.com/article/TrustInJesus/612531_3.html
这个问题的本质就是耶稣的血是不是为了全人类流的，这个和Mr. Huo与Seeketernal经
常挂在嘴边的一个问题有关：是不是有一批人要下地狱？实际上阿民念主义并非“普救
论”，这是加尔文们对阿民念的又一次污蔑。
启示录既然说了一批人要下地狱，那么耶稣有没有为他们而死？这个是L的根本。
is
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【在 R*o 的大作中提到】
: Defining Calvinism
: In spite of many differences of opinion among Calvinists today, Calvinism is
: generally explained by the acronym, TULIP. Philip F. Congdon writes that "a
: tulip is a beautiful flower, but bad theology. The fruit of the flower is a
: ppealing; the fruit of the theology is appalling . . . works, as an inevitab
: le result, are necessary for salvation. To be fair, Classical Calvinists usu
: ally object to this by describing the gospel message as not `faith + works =
: justification,' but `faith = justification + works' . . . . This is no more
: than a word game. It is best seen in the old Calvinist saying: `You are sav
: ed by faith alone, but the faith that saves you is never alone . . . . "' 64
| D******r
发帖数: 637 | 5 加尔文的第四条I：不可抗拒的恩典，和第二条U:无条件的救赎，是紧密相连的。加尔文
们相信上帝在创世之初”随机"的挑选了信徒，被挑选的信徒也无法拒绝这样的”恩典“
，
加尔文们相信耶稣如果为一个死，这个人就必然信他并得救。
在这本书里，作者Dave Hunt在记述约翰加尔文在日内瓦的酷政时经常这么说：加尔文相
信神的恩典的是不可抗拒的，他就同样把“神的律法”不可抗拒的强加在日内瓦公民身
上，而事实上日内瓦当时的各种犯罪行为依然存在，加尔文自己的弟弟就犯了通奸罪
同样的，这个版的加尔文派版主jym0237和seeketernal也在当政期间，试图把改革宗的
“律法”“不可抗拒”的强加在这个版的版友身上
既然加尔文们相信神的恩典是不可抗拒的，可他们又要强迫基督们遵从改革宗教会的信
条。他们既然相信一切行为的主权在神，可同时又要用人为的权柄去控制基督徒。在认
为神的预定不可侵犯的同时，他们不断制定信条信经来控制信徒的思想，以至于myelsa
书写得救的唯一条件是主耶稣，都要被认为是异端而被删除。
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64
【在 R*o 的大作中提到】
: Defining Calvinism
: In spite of many differences of opinion among Calvinists today, Calvinism is
: generally explained by the acronym, TULIP. Philip F. Congdon writes that "a
: tulip is a beautiful flower, but bad theology. The fruit of the flower is a
: ppealing; the fruit of the theology is appalling . . . works, as an inevitab
: le result, are necessary for salvation. To be fair, Classical Calvinists usu
: ally object to this by describing the gospel message as not `faith + works =
: justification,' but `faith = justification + works' . . . . This is no more
: than a word game. It is best seen in the old Calvinist saying: `You are sav
: ed by faith alone, but the faith that saves you is never alone . . . . "' 64
| D******r
发帖数: 637 | 6 最后一条P：圣徒永蒙保守，也是和第二条U：无条件的拣选紧密相连。既然人类是毫无
自主性的机器人，那神叫你信你就信，让你活就活，让你死就是死，不是吗？
圣徒还是信徒，这个问题上，大部分加尔文派认为信徒=圣徒。很好理解，既然上帝让你
信就让你得救“一次得救，永远得救”，那你当然是圣徒。
加尔文派认为恩典不会“失落”就造成了李洪志逻辑，李洪志以前吹嘘练法轮功就不用
看病，可有很多练习者不看病而病死了，那李洪志就说了“练功而病死的都不是真的练
功”，就如E神的经典“一句话提高中国人素质：低素质的中国人都是假中国人”
所以P信条毫无可行性，比如希特勒，你可以说他不是真信徒，反正政治上需要谁是信徒
，他就是永蒙保守的，比如牛顿会下地狱吗？
is
"a
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inevitab
usu
=
more
sav
64
【在 R*o 的大作中提到】
: Defining Calvinism
: In spite of many differences of opinion among Calvinists today, Calvinism is
: generally explained by the acronym, TULIP. Philip F. Congdon writes that "a
: tulip is a beautiful flower, but bad theology. The fruit of the flower is a
: ppealing; the fruit of the theology is appalling . . . works, as an inevitab
: le result, are necessary for salvation. To be fair, Classical Calvinists usu
: ally object to this by describing the gospel message as not `faith + works =
: justification,' but `faith = justification + works' . . . . This is no more
: than a word game. It is best seen in the old Calvinist saying: `You are sav
: ed by faith alone, but the faith that saves you is never alone . . . . "' 64
| S*********L
发帖数: 5785 | 7 看你说了半天不得要领，真替你着急。
神的预定是按神的美意确定一些人得救，否则这些人和其他人一样面临必死惩罚；而不
是你理解的随机。
谁在神的预定得救之中，最后与神同在，只有神知道，人并不知道，这是神的主权。
说什么张三李四得救犯罪也不影响得救等等，实际上连加尔文主义的边都没沾。
让你
信徒
【在 D******r 的大作中提到】
: 最后一条P：圣徒永蒙保守，也是和第二条U：无条件的拣选紧密相连。既然人类是毫无
: 自主性的机器人，那神叫你信你就信，让你活就活，让你死就是死，不是吗？
: 圣徒还是信徒，这个问题上，大部分加尔文派认为信徒=圣徒。很好理解，既然上帝让你
: 信就让你得救“一次得救，永远得救”，那你当然是圣徒。
: 加尔文派认为恩典不会“失落”就造成了李洪志逻辑，李洪志以前吹嘘练法轮功就不用
: 看病，可有很多练习者不看病而病死了，那李洪志就说了“练功而病死的都不是真的练
: 功”，就如E神的经典“一句话提高中国人素质：低素质的中国人都是假中国人”
: 所以P信条毫无可行性，比如希特勒，你可以说他不是真信徒，反正政治上需要谁是信徒
: ，他就是永蒙保守的，比如牛顿会下地狱吗？
:
| b*********d
发帖数: 596 | 8 看了你的回复我有个问题：加尔文宗认为神确定某些人得救应该是远在这些人出生以前
吧？
【在 S*********L 的大作中提到】
: 看你说了半天不得要领，真替你着急。
: 神的预定是按神的美意确定一些人得救，否则这些人和其他人一样面临必死惩罚；而不
: 是你理解的随机。
: 谁在神的预定得救之中，最后与神同在，只有神知道，人并不知道，这是神的主权。
: 说什么张三李四得救犯罪也不影响得救等等，实际上连加尔文主义的边都没沾。
:
: 让你
: 信徒
| S*********L
发帖数: 5785 | 9 谢谢询问。是的。神在创始之前就预定和拣选了一些人得救，并按照神的预定最终实现。
否则，我们人类至今不知道已经有了多少辈，如果神不保守，想想中国的乱世多于太平
，有多大概率能保证当事人能来到那个被神拯救的时间？
这个问题是一个复杂和深刻的问题，欢迎朋友提出单独讨论。
【在 b*********d 的大作中提到】
: 看了你的回复我有个问题：加尔文宗认为神确定某些人得救应该是远在这些人出生以前
: 吧？
| b*********d
发帖数: 596 | 10 既然如此，那么自然随之而来有两个可能性：1. 这些人预订得救应该是和他们在生活
中具体怎么做没有关系的，不管怎么样都能得救；2. 这些人一生中的行为必然符合圣
经里得救的标准。
不知道你觉得哪个正确？
现。
【在 S*********L 的大作中提到】
: 谢谢询问。是的。神在创始之前就预定和拣选了一些人得救，并按照神的预定最终实现。
: 否则，我们人类至今不知道已经有了多少辈，如果神不保守，想想中国的乱世多于太平
: ，有多大概率能保证当事人能来到那个被神拯救的时间？
: 这个问题是一个复杂和深刻的问题，欢迎朋友提出单独讨论。
| S*********L
发帖数: 5785 | 11 第一条，神拣选和他们的行为没有关系，但是救赎以后，神会引导他们成圣，不断地提
高属灵程度，最后达到神的标准。
第二条，首先人被神拯救以后，就是换了心，有了圣灵进驻，并非一开始就在外在行为
上都符合神的要求，但是他们会在正确的方向上不断进步，即使很缓慢。
所以两个都有正确的成分，但是不完整也不清晰。
【在 b*********d 的大作中提到】
: 既然如此，那么自然随之而来有两个可能性：1. 这些人预订得救应该是和他们在生活
: 中具体怎么做没有关系的，不管怎么样都能得救；2. 这些人一生中的行为必然符合圣
: 经里得救的标准。
: 不知道你觉得哪个正确？
:
: 现。
| R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 12 for what reason, God chose you to go to heaven? Did you do anything to plea
se God before God chose you? So I said it is random.
【在 S*********L 的大作中提到】
: 看你说了半天不得要领，真替你着急。
: 神的预定是按神的美意确定一些人得救，否则这些人和其他人一样面临必死惩罚；而不
: 是你理解的随机。
: 谁在神的预定得救之中，最后与神同在，只有神知道，人并不知道，这是神的主权。
: 说什么张三李四得救犯罪也不影响得救等等，实际上连加尔文主义的边都没沾。
:
: 让你
: 信徒
| m****a
发帖数: 9485 | 13
既然你说只有神知道，就要真的说不知道。这才是言行一致的。
可是，说异教异端不得救，不得救怎样？按照你神学理论，是要下地狱的，而且要受永
远的折磨。这岂不是说两面话吗？
在你看来，犹太教的人要下地狱，伊斯兰教，耶証摩门教的人，都要下地狱，包括牛顿
，因为他不信三位一体，不对吗？你都明明说了，异教异端不得救的，另一方面还说上
述的似乎又模棱两可的话，你自己都跟自己的话矛盾，不是吗？
如果你真的按照你最后一句话在思考，在行动，我没话可说，但是，你明明行的，说的
，是完全另外一回事。
你的神学和教义本身就是矛盾的---才导致你言行的不一致。
【在 S*********L 的大作中提到】
: 看你说了半天不得要领，真替你着急。
: 神的预定是按神的美意确定一些人得救，否则这些人和其他人一样面临必死惩罚；而不
: 是你理解的随机。
: 谁在神的预定得救之中，最后与神同在，只有神知道，人并不知道，这是神的主权。
: 说什么张三李四得救犯罪也不影响得救等等，实际上连加尔文主义的边都没沾。
:
: 让你
: 信徒
|
|
