d******u
发帖数: 385 | 1 这是在local casino的一首牌:
我BB, 他UTG+3, 他先raise到$12, 我AJo call,
flop: J74o
我bet $12, 他raise 到$30, 我call,
turn: Q
我check, 他bet $60, 我fold
他bet 60的时候我想了很久不觉得他有东西，没有理由这样bet赶我走，只能说他是小
队，或者就是纯bluff. 他后来说我顶多一对JJ or QQ. | c*****t
发帖数: 817 | 2 Just check to the raiser。你这个牌基本上没有在flop上donk bet的必要。AJJ这样
的平庸牌OOP重要的是pot control，而不是protect your hand。敌人的read很准。这
种牌面你有真正的强牌一般会check raise，或者check call the flop and donk bet
the turn。
你donk bet的结果就是被人raise把pot做大，然后turn上面对重注你就慢慢猜吧。你凭
什么就觉得他一定没有东西，难道他QQ/KK/AA不会bet $60 into a $84 pot? 且不说60
into 84根本不算overbet感你走。有一定水平的bluffer都不会干出value bet small and
bluff bet big的傻事。他们会value bet big来protect他们的bluff。
我个人觉得donk bet很少是正确的。以下三种情况除外。
1 敌人weak passive。 几乎不bluff。这是你可以donk bet for value, and fold to
a raise.
2 敌人非常aggressive。这时你有set在J72的牌面上可以donk bet 1/3 pot来扮演probe
bet。诱使对方raise你把pot做大。AJ在J72上就应该check call了。
3 你有强牌但是牌面太危险。你需要donk bet来保护你的牌。比如你有TT但是牌面是
JT9二花。我会donk bet同时准备打到全下。这种牌面完全不用slow play，敌人有无数种放不下
的draw会跟我。而且敌人有AA/KK也放不下，因为他们会觉得我的donk bet是semibluff with
a draw. | s*********f
发帖数: 155 | 3 stack size? Read on villain?
The board is very dry. The villain seems to have an overpair or a set based
on his action. If he is loose and aggressive, he may also have JTs (some
players love JT, me included), QJs, KJs or AJ. Overall, folding seems good
on the turn.
I rather go for a check raise on the flop if the stack is deep enough. This
can control the pot size if he checks. However, many players automatically
do a continuation bet. Your donk bet loses value if the villain c-bets on
air or with an underpair. I also take the initiative with a check raise. If
he calls your check raise on the flop, you most likely have to check-fold
on the turn.
【在 d******u 的大作中提到】
: 这是在local casino的一首牌:
: 我BB, 他UTG+3, 他先raise到$12, 我AJo call,
: flop: J74o
: 我bet $12, 他raise 到$30, 我call,
: turn: Q
: 我check, 他bet $60, 我fold
: 他bet 60的时候我想了很久不觉得他有东西，没有理由这样bet赶我走，只能说他是小
: 队，或者就是纯bluff. 他后来说我顶多一对JJ or QQ.
| d******u
发帖数: 385 | 4 受教了，确实面对raiser 最好是check，我猜他 bluff的原因是因为对他的桌面映像，
他经常下大注raise.
【在 d******u 的大作中提到】
: 这是在local casino的一首牌:
: 我BB, 他UTG+3, 他先raise到$12, 我AJo call,
: flop: J74o
: 我bet $12, 他raise 到$30, 我call,
: turn: Q
: 我check, 他bet $60, 我fold
: 他bet 60的时候我想了很久不觉得他有东西，没有理由这样bet赶我走，只能说他是小
: 队，或者就是纯bluff. 他后来说我顶多一对JJ or QQ.
| c*****t
发帖数: 817 | 5 No..我觉得check raise TPTK 是 live player 输钱的主要原因之一。
live player，尤其是老爷爷们的一个主要特点就是bluff少，但是容易overplay他们的
hand。
他们好像觉得check raise打出了气势，特别爽。我的主要一个赢钱来源就是例如：我
raise with AA,老爷爷call OOP。flop Q 10 2 rainbow. 老爷爷check raise我all in
。对老爷爷们这种情况我snap call。基本上知道老爷爷们不是AQ就是KQ。
TPTK是好牌。但是check raise turns it into a bluff。太可惜了。
你基本上打跑了所有输给你的牌，留下的都是比你大的。尤其是面对bluffer。你何不
如check call让他继续bluff呢。当然，check raise的结果是你能知道where you are
and can fold to a reraise。但是用check raise的方式来知道自己在哪里也太贵了。
对于bluffer，你不需要知道他的牌是什么，just check call, knowing that your
range is ahead of his range is enough。
我个人觉得check raise的牌应该是monster (at least 2-pair) for value 或者bluff
。中等强度的牌用来check raise，大概要到Durrr这个级别的牌手才能打的好。
based
This
If
【在 s*********f 的大作中提到】
: stack size? Read on villain?
: The board is very dry. The villain seems to have an overpair or a set based
: on his action. If he is loose and aggressive, he may also have JTs (some
: players love JT, me included), QJs, KJs or AJ. Overall, folding seems good
: on the turn.
: I rather go for a check raise on the flop if the stack is deep enough. This
: can control the pot size if he checks. However, many players automatically
: do a continuation bet. Your donk bet loses value if the villain c-bets on
: air or with an underpair. I also take the initiative with a check raise. If
: he calls your check raise on the flop, you most likely have to check-fold
| p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 6 恩差不多，不过我觉得用tptk check raise with good read也是很好用的，尤其当
drawy的board的时候，而且你check raise tptk some time， 其他人就会觉得你fish
，你有nuts的时候很容易被pay off， also it's a good way to depolarize your
check raise range
in
are
【在 c*****t 的大作中提到】
: No..我觉得check raise TPTK 是 live player 输钱的主要原因之一。
: live player，尤其是老爷爷们的一个主要特点就是bluff少，但是容易overplay他们的
: hand。
: 他们好像觉得check raise打出了气势，特别爽。我的主要一个赢钱来源就是例如：我
: raise with AA,老爷爷call OOP。flop Q 10 2 rainbow. 老爷爷check raise我all in
: 。对老爷爷们这种情况我snap call。基本上知道老爷爷们不是AQ就是KQ。
: TPTK是好牌。但是check raise turns it into a bluff。太可惜了。
: 你基本上打跑了所有输给你的牌，留下的都是比你大的。尤其是面对bluffer。你何不
: 如check call让他继续bluff呢。当然，check raise的结果是你能知道where you are
: and can fold to a reraise。但是用check raise的方式来知道自己在哪里也太贵了。
| p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 7 Agree. When you are OOP, pot control with marginal hand is extremely
important. I think stacksize and table image(both you and opp) matter a
lot.
If your stack is pretty short and think you are ahead with tptk, check/raise
and willing to call shove is fine. Otherwise, do not think that is a
profitable play majority of time. You are right, check/raising to find out
where you are with tptk is way too expensive. I do not think Durrrr and Phil G do that often either unless it is heads up situation where tptk is very strong range
and often get called/reraised by worse.
Here is a classical example : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVoODueyWQc
I really like how Patrick played , Erick was still kind of live cash fish
then. Almost never correct to put a lot of money in hoping for a chop.
in
are
【在 c*****t 的大作中提到】
: No..我觉得check raise TPTK 是 live player 输钱的主要原因之一。
: live player，尤其是老爷爷们的一个主要特点就是bluff少，但是容易overplay他们的
: hand。
: 他们好像觉得check raise打出了气势，特别爽。我的主要一个赢钱来源就是例如：我
: raise with AA,老爷爷call OOP。flop Q 10 2 rainbow. 老爷爷check raise我all in
: 。对老爷爷们这种情况我snap call。基本上知道老爷爷们不是AQ就是KQ。
: TPTK是好牌。但是check raise turns it into a bluff。太可惜了。
: 你基本上打跑了所有输给你的牌，留下的都是比你大的。尤其是面对bluffer。你何不
: 如check call让他继续bluff呢。当然，check raise的结果是你能知道where you are
: and can fold to a reraise。但是用check raise的方式来知道自己在哪里也太贵了。
| c*****t
发帖数: 817 | 8
fish
In live poker, I am not sure if you need to balance your check raise range
at all. A typical check raise percentage is 5 ~ 10%. Say you got a 5-hour
session and played 150 hands. Your VPIP is 20%. Then you check raised about
1 ~ 3 times over the whole session. For such a small sample size you dont
really need to balance or depolarize your range.
【在 p*******p 的大作中提到】
: 恩差不多，不过我觉得用tptk check raise with good read也是很好用的，尤其当
: drawy的board的时候，而且你check raise tptk some time， 其他人就会觉得你fish
: ，你有nuts的时候很容易被pay off， also it's a good way to depolarize your
: check raise range
:
: in
: are
| p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 9 well, I play live with same ppl every week, and my vpip is around 70%, so
yes I do need to depolarize
about
【在 c*****t 的大作中提到】
:
: fish
: In live poker, I am not sure if you need to balance your check raise range
: at all. A typical check raise percentage is 5 ~ 10%. Say you got a 5-hour
: session and played 150 hands. Your VPIP is 20%. Then you check raised about
: 1 ~ 3 times over the whole session. For such a small sample size you dont
: really need to balance or depolarize your range.
| p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 10 you are suckout master? :) my vpip is around 90% now, playing heads up.
【在 p*******p 的大作中提到】
: well, I play live with same ppl every week, and my vpip is around 70%, so
: yes I do need to depolarize
:
: about
| | | p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 11 come on, it's not called suck out, it's well timing chasing of draws :)
I play full ring(6 to 10), heads up my vpip is 100%
.
【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: you are suckout master? :) my vpip is around 90% now, playing heads up.
| h*******s
发帖数: 3932 | 12 and yet no one punishes you with such high vpip?
【在 p*******p 的大作中提到】
: well, I play live with same ppl every week, and my vpip is around 70%, so
: yes I do need to depolarize
:
: about
| p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 13 they punish me all the time ， 5555， I am the biggest fish on that table
【在 h*******s 的大作中提到】
: and yet no one punishes you with such high vpip?
| t********t
发帖数: 5415 | 14 yeah right...
【在 p*******p 的大作中提到】
: they punish me all the time ， 5555， I am the biggest fish on that table
| p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 15 li shu is KGB there? I will join in your guys to suck out him if I go
Boston..
【在 t********t 的大作中提到】
: yeah right...
| p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 16 no, I am chinese business man....
【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: li shu is KGB there? I will join in your guys to suck out him if I go
: Boston..
| d*****0
发帖数: 1500 | 17 no you are chinese fisherman | s*********k
发帖数: 1989 | 18 I agree. Check-raise with marginal hand works very well in live, especially
in
position. Many player are willing to fold TPTK OOP on turn after call check-
raise on flop.
fish
【在 p*******p 的大作中提到】
: 恩差不多，不过我觉得用tptk check raise with good read也是很好用的，尤其当
: drawy的board的时候，而且你check raise tptk some time， 其他人就会觉得你fish
: ，你有nuts的时候很容易被pay off， also it's a good way to depolarize your
: check raise range
:
: in
: are
| h*******s
发帖数: 3932 | 19 in position check-raise is not usual...e.g., A checks, you check, C bet, A
call, you check-raise, C fold, A call.. your check-raise is very strong
against two players.
or you mean plain raise in position?
especially
check-
【在 s*********k 的大作中提到】
: I agree. Check-raise with marginal hand works very well in live, especially
: in
: position. Many player are willing to fold TPTK OOP on turn after call check-
: raise on flop.
:
: fish
|
|
