T*********k
发帖数: 1621 | 1 Play 2/5 in Sands.
Me playing at UTG+1, AsJs, Raised to $35
HJ and Button called. both with 330+ stack. HJ and Button is somewhat loose
but not totally out of line.
Pot $112
Flop
6s 7s Jh
I c-bet $35, acting as week and hope to get re-raised so I can raise again.
HJ raised to $85, Button all-in for $320, Pot = $552 and I need $290 to call.
What do you do? Fold, call, or shove? | W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 2 you are behind...Button all-in for $320, Pot can't be $350 | p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 3 preflop 35 2 callers， 然后你bet 35， hj raise to 35， button allin 320，
pot怎么会只有350？
loose
【在 T*********k 的大作中提到】
: Play 2/5 in Sands.
: Me playing at UTG+1, AsJs, Raised to $35
: HJ and Button called. both with 330+ stack. HJ and Button is somewhat loose
: but not totally out of line.
: Pot $112
: Flop
: 6s 7s Jh
: I c-bet $35, acting as week and hope to get re-raised so I can raise again.
: HJ raised to $85, Button all-in for $320, Pot = $552 and I need $290 to call.
: What do you do? Fold, call, or shove?
| T*********k
发帖数: 1621 | 4 changed
【在 p*******p 的大作中提到】
: preflop 35 2 callers， 然后你bet 35， hj raise to 35， button allin 320，
: pot怎么会只有350？
:
: loose
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 5 similar to the other hand of MM's boss (KQs)...
but this one has bigger and earlier action, i think you're good to shove.
BTN got a monster but you have enough outs/odds.
loose
call.
【在 T*********k 的大作中提到】
: Play 2/5 in Sands.
: Me playing at UTG+1, AsJs, Raised to $35
: HJ and Button called. both with 330+ stack. HJ and Button is somewhat loose
: but not totally out of line.
: Pot $112
: Flop
: 6s 7s Jh
: I c-bet $35, acting as week and hope to get re-raised so I can raise again.
: HJ raised to $85, Button all-in for $320, Pot = $552 and I need $290 to call.
: What do you do? Fold, call, or shove?
| T*********k
发帖数: 1621 | 6 After btn all-in, I shove for $350+.
Pot odds is roughly: 1:2
Here was my thinking:
Worst case: agins set or overpair. Against set, I was 2:1 underdog with 2
cards to come, odds enough. For overpair, I was only underdog to AAs, with
better than 2:1. Aginst KK or QQ, I was even money or even favor.
I decided to shove because HJ also was really committed to this pot, he had
$110 invested and the pot after my shove was close to $830+ and he only had
$220 left, he had any sorts of reasonable hand, he will go all in, which
make my odds even better. I will get 3:1 odds and only 2:1 underdog at worst.
BTW, I still considered one of them may have flush draw as well, which he
was close to draw dead.
Let me know if my play is reasonable, if not, what is the best play here. | p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 7 worst case，你shove all in， HJ fold了 （因为他是small fulsh，figured， one
of you have set and the other is nut flush), 这种情况下你的odds不够，不过这
种情况太难得，不用考虑，其他时候无脑all in
had
had
worst.
【在 T*********k 的大作中提到】
: After btn all-in, I shove for $350+.
: Pot odds is roughly: 1:2
: Here was my thinking:
: Worst case: agins set or overpair. Against set, I was 2:1 underdog with 2
: cards to come, odds enough. For overpair, I was only underdog to AAs, with
: better than 2:1. Aginst KK or QQ, I was even money or even favor.
: I decided to shove because HJ also was really committed to this pot, he had
: $110 invested and the pot after my shove was close to $830+ and he only had
: $220 left, he had any sorts of reasonable hand, he will go all in, which
: make my odds even better. I will get 3:1 odds and only 2:1 underdog at worst.
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 8 the way i see this:
1) you only got 72BB before this hand, and 7BB to open from UTG. why are we
playing AJs this way at all? are we looking for some Axx flops? no, most of
time if xx are not spades, it'll be a very tough hand to play out of
position with an awkward stack size (not shallow to make easy decisions or
deep to play creatively). so we're playing more likely for Jxx or nut flush
draw flops for a big pot (even in 2/5NL, 7BB UTG is big);
2) ok then, here you hit your best flop. i like your weakish c-bet. now you
see 2 way big action. i don't think AA/KK would play this way here (too weak
pre and too strong post flop), QQ possible but still too strong. one of them
must have a set 66/77, and it looks like more likely to be BTN. even he got
a set, you got enough odds to justify a call here. yeah, i know, it's $290,
sounds like some money, but just let it roll. dusty would suggest even
shoving AsXs here (not J), your hand is over the standard;
3) the worst case is actually if MP got a combo draw or flush draw too,
which takes 2 out of your outs, still, your 7 remaining outs are all live
outs.
had
had
worst.
【在 T*********k 的大作中提到】
: After btn all-in, I shove for $350+.
: Pot odds is roughly: 1:2
: Here was my thinking:
: Worst case: agins set or overpair. Against set, I was 2:1 underdog with 2
: cards to come, odds enough. For overpair, I was only underdog to AAs, with
: better than 2:1. Aginst KK or QQ, I was even money or even favor.
: I decided to shove because HJ also was really committed to this pot, he had
: $110 invested and the pot after my shove was close to $830+ and he only had
: $220 left, he had any sorts of reasonable hand, he will go all in, which
: make my odds even better. I will get 3:1 odds and only 2:1 underdog at worst.
| T*********k
发帖数: 1621 | 9 Frykings, the ppl there playing, even on 2/5 table, most are not as solid as
you.
Most of ppl are a lot looser than ppl playing online. So I think it is
reasonable to open with AJs.
OK, on a 6s 7s Jh flop.
After I shove, as I expected, HJ seat immediately all-in, we had a $1000+
pot.
I was expecting to see at least one of them had set. But HJ showing 8 9 of
dimonds for up down straight draw, Btn showed AAs, he slowpplayed it now
tried to freeze the board.
I crashed HJ, left him 6 outs, but I am an underdog to Btn. I didn't hit my
flush either. HJ rivered his non-spade 5 and took the whole pot.
Btn threw away his AAs in depression. But he forgot we had 100 side pot.
When dealer tried to figure out who won the side pot, I just pointed out, he
mucked his hand. So he was more depressed.
Sigh, that is one of the 4 all-ins I lost that day. Couple hand later I
crashed into KKs vs AAs in preflop and lost the whole stack. Not a good day
at poker. | p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 10 that's why I love online play, you will never make mistake like much your
winning hand
as
【在 T*********k 的大作中提到】
: Frykings, the ppl there playing, even on 2/5 table, most are not as solid as
: you.
: Most of ppl are a lot looser than ppl playing online. So I think it is
: reasonable to open with AJs.
: OK, on a 6s 7s Jh flop.
: After I shove, as I expected, HJ seat immediately all-in, we had a $1000+
: pot.
: I was expecting to see at least one of them had set. But HJ showing 8 9 of
: dimonds for up down straight draw, Btn showed AAs, he slowpplayed it now
: tried to freeze the board.
| | | g**s
发帖数: 1114 | 11 yeah, but you may get timeout when you have AA or flopped set.
yesterday, I was think about squeeze size with AA in CO and got timeout. btn
squeeze and flop Axx rb...
Last time, I did not pay attention to my flopped set and got timeout...
【在 p*******p 的大作中提到】
: that's why I love online play, you will never make mistake like much your
: winning hand
:
: as
| p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 12 恩，那就看大家喜欢了，我个人不在乎timeout，online 不用担心muck 错hand，不用
去数pot大小， 不用去数chips，想bet多少打给数字就行。 live感觉就是图个热闹，
玩玩可以，认真打不习惯
btn
【在 g**s 的大作中提到】
: yeah, but you may get timeout when you have AA or flopped set.
: yesterday, I was think about squeeze size with AA in CO and got timeout. btn
: squeeze and flop Axx rb...
: Last time, I did not pay attention to my flopped set and got timeout...
| g**s
发帖数: 1114 | 13 I dont like live game either. Too slow, one bad beat or bad played hand
could be all you can eat in that session. Have not played live for a while...
【在 p*******p 的大作中提到】
: 恩，那就看大家喜欢了，我个人不在乎timeout，online 不用担心muck 错hand，不用
: 去数pot大小， 不用去数chips，想bet多少打给数字就行。 live感觉就是图个热闹，
: 玩玩可以，认真打不习惯
:
: btn
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 14 You are missing the key point for live poker.
It is easier to make $$ than on-line because people play worse with larger
stake. This is designed to be disaster for fish... | f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 15 oh, then 11 solid outs, you should not regret at all.
even the 89 guy knew he got enough odds (even taking out 2 spades, still 6)
after you called, $235 more for a $800+ pot.
ed miller has a very good series of articles on card player lately, "25
levels of aggression", in one of them, he said, "at this X level, you should
be able to beat up to 5/10NL live games, and tough games like 0.25/0.5NL
online...", i had to read it twice to make sure i got that "5/10NL = 0.25/0.5" part right, lol.
as
【在 T*********k 的大作中提到】
: Frykings, the ppl there playing, even on 2/5 table, most are not as solid as
: you.
: Most of ppl are a lot looser than ppl playing online. So I think it is
: reasonable to open with AJs.
: OK, on a 6s 7s Jh flop.
: After I shove, as I expected, HJ seat immediately all-in, we had a $1000+
: pot.
: I was expecting to see at least one of them had set. But HJ showing 8 9 of
: dimonds for up down straight draw, Btn showed AAs, he slowpplayed it now
: tried to freeze the board.
| g**s
发帖数: 1114 | 16 I dont miss it. my point is with limited hands played one session, hard to
come back if you have bad luck in one hand.
I have very very bad luck in live game, although I still win money from
there. here is several big pots I remember and I am very used to the the bad
beat but it happens to me so often.
lost AA to 32s 500+ pot pre all in
lost AA to AKo 500+ pot pre all in
lost KK to multi-ways, squezz $80 in btn and get 6 callers. pre-flop is
around 500, flop is J72 rb. push all in with rest of 200 and get called by a
donkey and he has 79s and ofcaouse he got 7 on the river.
lost AA to multi-ways, squezz $100 in BB and get 5 callers. pre-flop is
around 500, flop is Ks5s7d. push all in with rest of 200 and get called by 2
, one has AKo and one has flush draw 4s2s. turn 4, river 4.
Lost floped set to draw several times...
For all multi-way big pots, I lost all of them in my live session games.
I love those donks, but still lost my pot to them... LOL
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: You are missing the key point for live poker.
: It is easier to make $$ than on-line because people play worse with larger
: stake. This is designed to be disaster for fish...
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 17 Not surprised with that statement at all. However, we can't just play the
same way live and on-line and expect to crush both. Proper adjustment is
definitely needed. Adjustment does not mean deviating from poker
fundamentals. Your odds of winning does not change playing live or on-line.
The adjustment mainly should be in the range of hand you play and continue
on every street.
ed miller has a very good series of articles on card player lately, "25
levels of aggression", in one of them, he said, "at this X level, you should
be able to beat up to 5/10NL live games, and tough games like 0.25/0.5NL
online...", i had to read it twice to make sure i got that "5/10NL = 0.25/0.
5" part right, lol.
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: oh, then 11 solid outs, you should not regret at all.
: even the 89 guy knew he got enough odds (even taking out 2 spades, still 6)
: after you called, $235 more for a $800+ pot.
: ed miller has a very good series of articles on card player lately, "25
: levels of aggression", in one of them, he said, "at this X level, you should
: be able to beat up to 5/10NL live games, and tough games like 0.25/0.5NL
: online...", i had to read it twice to make sure i got that "5/10NL = 0.25/0.5" part right, lol.
:
: as
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 18 as said before, still a few problems with live:
1) time investment: at standard 15 hands/hour, there's only so much we can
do, even against fish;
2) volume/variance: smaller volume tends to have bigger variance, yeah, we
play for a sat., say, 10 hours long session, it's only about 150 hands;
3) other side costs like gas, tolls, hotel rooms, etc., small money, but if
we want to put in large volume, they add up too.
online is much more flexible, if i like, play for 1K hands, if i have to do
something else, ok, play for 100 and then log off. we can play everyday
everywhere.
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: You are missing the key point for live poker.
: It is easier to make $$ than on-line because people play worse with larger
: stake. This is designed to be disaster for fish...
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 19 in 2007, i played a lot of live games before i switched to online (i didn't
trust online before that at all), i know what you're talking about, although
i also admit that i sucked at that time, lol.
many times i was so excited to start playing there (well, after a long drive
and tough permission from LD)... so i played very loose passive in the
beginning and easily lost $500-$1000 for the first day, ... then the pain
kicked in and i started to play "good" (weak tight) poker ... i have to say
i got lucky many times to have a huge comeback to be even or up on day two.
bad
a
【在 g**s 的大作中提到】
: I dont miss it. my point is with limited hands played one session, hard to
: come back if you have bad luck in one hand.
: I have very very bad luck in live game, although I still win money from
: there. here is several big pots I remember and I am very used to the the bad
: beat but it happens to me so often.
: lost AA to 32s 500+ pot pre all in
: lost AA to AKo 500+ pot pre all in
: lost KK to multi-ways, squezz $80 in btn and get 6 callers. pre-flop is
: around 500, flop is J72 rb. push all in with rest of 200 and get called by a
: donkey and he has 79s and ofcaouse he got 7 on the river.
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 20 Even Goes can be results oriented? hehe... I expect better from you. Your
bad beat expierence exactly showed that there are much more $$ to be made
live than on-lne. Got to look deeper than the results.
Now 1$/2$ is not too much above our bankroll anymore, so i think it is fine
to play it even seldomly. The major issue with some microtake player who play NL50 or
lower is bank roll. If they seldom goes to live and play larger stake above
their roll. One or few session could put a dent on their bank roll and they
would be crushed and do not want to play live anymore. The fact is that even
though live game is soft as hell, it still requires a PROPER BANK ROLL to
show a profit over LARGE SAMPLE.. It is simple as that.
Poker is not chess. you can not win every session even if you crush everyone on the table. Variance is part of the game. In a slow paced live game, if you do not play often, it is hard to show your true EV, but give it some time, you will get there.
bad
a
【在 g**s 的大作中提到】
: I dont miss it. my point is with limited hands played one session, hard to
: come back if you have bad luck in one hand.
: I have very very bad luck in live game, although I still win money from
: there. here is several big pots I remember and I am very used to the the bad
: beat but it happens to me so often.
: lost AA to 32s 500+ pot pre all in
: lost AA to AKo 500+ pot pre all in
: lost KK to multi-ways, squezz $80 in btn and get 6 callers. pre-flop is
: around 500, flop is J72 rb. push all in with rest of 200 and get called by a
: donkey and he has 79s and ofcaouse he got 7 on the river.
| | | W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 21 Agree with everything you said pretty much. But if I live 10 mins away from
a casino that provide higher level of games, I will play live instead of on-
line for sure. Giving it some time with proper bankroll management, you
probably will see me at 10$/20$ table or at least 5$/10$ table.. Hard to
imagine you will make less money there than even NL200 on-line.
if
do
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: as said before, still a few problems with live:
: 1) time investment: at standard 15 hands/hour, there's only so much we can
: do, even against fish;
: 2) volume/variance: smaller volume tends to have bigger variance, yeah, we
: play for a sat., say, 10 hours long session, it's only about 150 hands;
: 3) other side costs like gas, tolls, hotel rooms, etc., small money, but if
: we want to put in large volume, they add up too.
: online is much more flexible, if i like, play for 1K hands, if i have to do
: something else, ok, play for 100 and then log off. we can play everyday
: everywhere.
| g**s
发帖数: 1114 | 22 I am not results oriented at all. I am not complaining the bad beats, I am
complaining the volume in live game. If I have chance to play with them for
5000 hands in a session, I will be very happy about it. In order to deal
with variance, need to play more. Play more in live is almost impossible to
me(how many hand can we play in a 4 hours session).... As I said, I still
win decent amount of money from live game, but compare the time/effort,
online is more EV+ to me for sure....
fine
play NL50 or
above
they
even
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: Even Goes can be results oriented? hehe... I expect better from you. Your
: bad beat expierence exactly showed that there are much more $$ to be made
: live than on-lne. Got to look deeper than the results.
: Now 1$/2$ is not too much above our bankroll anymore, so i think it is fine
: to play it even seldomly. The major issue with some microtake player who play NL50 or
: lower is bank roll. If they seldom goes to live and play larger stake above
: their roll. One or few session could put a dent on their bank roll and they
: would be crushed and do not want to play live anymore. The fact is that even
: though live game is soft as hell, it still requires a PROPER BANK ROLL to
: show a profit over LARGE SAMPLE.. It is simple as that.
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 23 You can not compare 1$/2$ live with NL100 on-line.
You need to know that with your skill level you can probably crush 5$/10$ or
even higher. What is pulling you back is bankroll. If you live close by the
casino, then you can level up properly and make more very soon. The lack of volumn need to be made up by softer game in higher stakes.
for
to
【在 g**s 的大作中提到】
: I am not results oriented at all. I am not complaining the bad beats, I am
: complaining the volume in live game. If I have chance to play with them for
: 5000 hands in a session, I will be very happy about it. In order to deal
: with variance, need to play more. Play more in live is almost impossible to
: me(how many hand can we play in a 4 hours session).... As I said, I still
: win decent amount of money from live game, but compare the time/effort,
: online is more EV+ to me for sure....
:
: fine
: play NL50 or
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 24 well, i'd say, yes and no, hehe.
yes, i agree with you, live is softer and has more donks. after all, 1/2NL
is like the lowest stake possible for those who only play home games or once
/twice in a year as tourists. they play any ace rag or 33 like a monster.
no, realisically, how many hours can we (most with family and kids) put in
live in a year? 200 hours maybe (20 trips and 10 hours/session, it's a lot
already) or 3K hands. how much can we do with this "small" 3K sample even we
're way better? (which of course is still a question mark). for example,
durrrr challenge, even he has a huge ego to go with his great skills, he's
offering with 50K hands.
if the commonly believed "good" live rate ($15/hour) in 1/2NL is correct, it
's only $3K/year, and this covers variances/side costs/etc.
fine
above
they
even
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: Even Goes can be results oriented? hehe... I expect better from you. Your
: bad beat expierence exactly showed that there are much more $$ to be made
: live than on-lne. Got to look deeper than the results.
: Now 1$/2$ is not too much above our bankroll anymore, so i think it is fine
: to play it even seldomly. The major issue with some microtake player who play NL50 or
: lower is bank roll. If they seldom goes to live and play larger stake above
: their roll. One or few session could put a dent on their bank roll and they
: would be crushed and do not want to play live anymore. The fact is that even
: though live game is soft as hell, it still requires a PROPER BANK ROLL to
: show a profit over LARGE SAMPLE.. It is simple as that.
| D*A
发帖数: 1169 | 25 at live,1/2,2/5,3/6,5/10NL ,so 5/10 is fourth level
at online,0.25/0.5 might be the sixth level already
for a regular online player, open 8 tables, times the speed of hand,
roughly 20 times, so 0.5 x 20 =10 make some sense..
)
should
0.5" part right, lol.
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: oh, then 11 solid outs, you should not regret at all.
: even the 89 guy knew he got enough odds (even taking out 2 spades, still 6)
: after you called, $235 more for a $800+ pot.
: ed miller has a very good series of articles on card player lately, "25
: levels of aggression", in one of them, he said, "at this X level, you should
: be able to beat up to 5/10NL live games, and tough games like 0.25/0.5NL
: online...", i had to read it twice to make sure i got that "5/10NL = 0.25/0.5" part right, lol.
:
: as
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 26 someone used to say live is like 4x in stakes of online, so roughly 1/2NL
live is like 0.25/0.5NL online. but honestly, i don't think they can be
compared in this way, not objective at all.
【在 D*A 的大作中提到】
: at live,1/2,2/5,3/6,5/10NL ,so 5/10 is fourth level
: at online,0.25/0.5 might be the sixth level already
: for a regular online player, open 8 tables, times the speed of hand,
: roughly 20 times, so 0.5 x 20 =10 make some sense..
:
: )
: should
: 0.5" part right, lol.
|
|
