w****j
发帖数: 5581 | 1 最近正在翻的两本书，一本是liberal的观点。对美国历史细节的整理很有意思，比如
关于北美印第安人的历史，用社会心理学的cognitive dissonance的概念解释和反对
ethnocentric（其实就是European centric)的史观，重新整理和评价印第安人对美国
的形成的影响。另一本是conservative的历史学家，从历史中找出传统价值的作用，比
如来自新教的工作伦理（说得好像没有基督教，就没有伦理了）。我几乎是出于条件反
射式地厌恶某些教徒那种要把自己的宗教加之于别的人，民族以至文化圈的劲头（虽然
捏着鼻子看下去并非不能发现一些合理且有趣的东西）。作为一个西方文明圈里的人，
接受那些东西可能是自然而然的，然而作为一个来自不属于西方文明圈的人，西方保守
派的一股陈腐气味还真是叫人受不了。
总之，和社会上的自由，保守两派相比，两边的伦理武器也差不多。自由派比较喜欢围
绕公平，正义这些概念，保守派比较喜欢繁荣，发展这些概念。书还是要对比着读才有
意思啊。 | y****e
发帖数: 1785 | 2 跟内容也有关系吧，如果讲Frontier的很多都会设计cognitive dissonance，而讲新英
格兰历史的就跳不开新教伦理。
【在 w****j 的大作中提到】
: 最近正在翻的两本书，一本是liberal的观点。对美国历史细节的整理很有意思，比如
: 关于北美印第安人的历史，用社会心理学的cognitive dissonance的概念解释和反对
: ethnocentric（其实就是European centric)的史观，重新整理和评价印第安人对美国
: 的形成的影响。另一本是conservative的历史学家，从历史中找出传统价值的作用，比
: 如来自新教的工作伦理（说得好像没有基督教，就没有伦理了）。我几乎是出于条件反
: 射式地厌恶某些教徒那种要把自己的宗教加之于别的人，民族以至文化圈的劲头（虽然
: 捏着鼻子看下去并非不能发现一些合理且有趣的东西）。作为一个西方文明圈里的人，
: 接受那些东西可能是自然而然的，然而作为一个来自不属于西方文明圈的人，西方保守
: 派的一股陈腐气味还真是叫人受不了。
: 总之，和社会上的自由，保守两派相比，两边的伦理武器也差不多。自由派比较喜欢围
| w****j
发帖数: 5581 | 3 新英格兰也可以讲印第安人啊，更可以讲白人的cognitive dissonance了。比如荷兰人
买曼哈顿的故事。其实曼哈顿当时真正的主人是Weckquaesgeeks人，但荷兰人付账（低
廉地让人诧异）给的是Manhate人。有理由认为荷兰人根本就是故意的，他们立刻修建
城墙就可以知道他们也明白Weckquaesgeeks人是不会买账的。其实这种手段在白人殖民
者那里是屡试不爽的，但后来这个故事都用来论证印第安人不懂产权概念了。这就是典
型的cognitive dissonance。
另外一个有趣但不常被提到的事情是1740年，印第安部落联盟the Iroquois League(美
国国徽白头鹰一支爪子里面抓的一束箭就来自Iroquois League的符号，本意是团结起
来就不容易被折断）在跟北美十三个殖民地往来交易的时候时常被英国殖民地之间的争
吵所困惑，于是建议他们效仿印第安人建立一个union。1794年，富兰克林在仔细考察
了the Iroquois League后向殖民地政治领袖提出来建立联盟的提议，这就是Albany
Plan of Union。这个提案虽然被拒绝，但仍然可以被视为是美国联邦和宪法的先声。
不过独立战争和之后的1812年战争可以看作是一道坎，之前印第安人还是可以学习和合
作的对象，之后就被看成是美国扩张的绊脚石了。
【在 y****e 的大作中提到】
: 跟内容也有关系吧，如果讲Frontier的很多都会设计cognitive dissonance，而讲新英
: 格兰历史的就跳不开新教伦理。
| w****j
发帖数: 5581 | | h******x
发帖数: 10156 | 5
有兴趣啊，多讲讲印地安人。在东部还有什么遗迹吗？似乎被扫得干干净净
【在 w****j 的大作中提到】
: 没人对美国历史感兴趣么？
| G**8
发帖数: 1209 | 6 我正好在学美国“史前”历史！你说的是野史，参杂了太多的后人解说。比如神马富兰
克林学习印第安社会结构：清朝被人打得满地找牙还硬撑着说“中学为用”，我不信富
兰克林在18世纪就有那么先进的人文理念！要知道当时连女人的投票权都没有！印第安
学西方，弄出一个山寨共和国倒是真的。
【在 w****j 的大作中提到】
: 新英格兰也可以讲印第安人啊，更可以讲白人的cognitive dissonance了。比如荷兰人
: 买曼哈顿的故事。其实曼哈顿当时真正的主人是Weckquaesgeeks人，但荷兰人付账（低
: 廉地让人诧异）给的是Manhate人。有理由认为荷兰人根本就是故意的，他们立刻修建
: 城墙就可以知道他们也明白Weckquaesgeeks人是不会买账的。其实这种手段在白人殖民
: 者那里是屡试不爽的，但后来这个故事都用来论证印第安人不懂产权概念了。这就是典
: 型的cognitive dissonance。
: 另外一个有趣但不常被提到的事情是1740年，印第安部落联盟the Iroquois League(美
: 国国徽白头鹰一支爪子里面抓的一束箭就来自Iroquois League的符号，本意是团结起
: 来就不容易被折断）在跟北美十三个殖民地往来交易的时候时常被英国殖民地之间的争
: 吵所困惑，于是建议他们效仿印第安人建立一个union。1794年，富兰克林在仔细考察
| w****j
发帖数: 5581 | 7 这是富兰克林写于1754年的话：
"It would be a strange thing if six nations of ignorant savages should be
capable of forming a scheme for such a union and be able to execute it in
such a manner as that is has subsisted ages and appears insoluble; and yet
that a like union should be impracticable for ten or dozen English colonies."
虽然这里面仍然充满西方人对北美印第安人的偏见，但可以看出来的是富兰克林是研究
过the Iroquois League的政治组织方式后写下的话。另外，国会在1775年由John
Hancock签署的对the Iroquois的讲话是这样说的："The Six Nations (the Iroquois
League) are a wise people, let us harken to their council(Iroquois advice
from 1744) and teach our children to follow it."
需要搞明白的是北美印第安人很难说是savage。这点和刚到北美的白人比起来，白人被
称为savage我看更合理些，因为白人的暴力倾向显然高于印第安人。在白人刚开始殖民
北美大陆的时候，北美大陆印第安人总数超过2000万，而且大多数人口从事农业。而且
印第安人的农业技术并不原始，一些部落能做到现在农业粮食产量(typical)的2～3倍
（Alfred Crosby Jr.， ”Demographics and Ecology", paper presented at
Smithsonian Institute Seminar, Washington DC, September 1990). "Andean
Indians practiced the only agriculture known to produce more topsoil than it
depleted. We have yet to unlock all the secrets of Mexican and Guatemalan
agriculture, which seem to have combined floating gardens, canals, and
fisheries".
北美印第安人的社会结构通常比较扁平，没有heavy hierarchy，个人相对比较自由，
社会成员之间地位比较平等。对早期Virginia殖民地史的研究显示当时印第安的生活方
式对白人也是相当有吸引力的。"facilitated by the fact that some Indians lived
among the English as day laborers, while a number of settlers fled to
Indian villages rather than endure the rigors of life among the autocratic
English."(Gary Nash: Red, White and Black) Michel Guillaume Jean de
Crevecoeurz的Letters from an American Farmer里面说："There must be in the
Indians' social bond something singularly captivating, and far superior to
be boasted of among us; for thousands of Europeans are Indians, and we have
no example of even one of those Aborigines having from choice become
Europeans." Benjamin Franklin也就此事说过："No European who has tasted
Savage Life(Indian way of life) can afterwards bear to live in our societies
."这种人口损失曾经给殖民地造成很大困扰。清教徒殖民地曾有法令规定不许留印第安
式长发，逃离殖民地的白人抓到后最高可以被判死刑（Karen Kupperman: Settling
with Indians）。看到这里，你想起点什么没有？有没有想到柏林墙和美墨边境啊？
Franklin还说过："All their(the Iroquois) government is by Counselof the
Sages.There is no Force; there are no Prisons, no officers to compel
Obedience, or inflict Punishment."1727年纽约Lt. Gov. Cadwallader Colden曾说
过："Their Authority is only the Esteem of the People, and ceases the Moment
that Esteem is lost." "Here we see the natural Origin of all Power and
Authority among a free People."虽然这里面可能掺杂了说话人的政治意图，但也一
定程度上解释了为什么当时印第安社会对下层白人殖民者有吸引力了。有历史学家认为
，北美印第安社会结构给了欧洲社会哲学以启迪，影响了莫尔，洛克，蒙恬，孟德斯鸠
和卢梭。
我无从得知你看的是哪本历史书，不妨说来看看。不过现在研究印第安社会的社会学家
大多对印第安文明的评价不低，按某个人说法，人类学领域里L. H. Morgan和Karl
Marx的savage to
barbaric to civilized这种描述模式已经过时了。我觉得阅读的面应该宽一些，左
中右都看看，别被右派的ethnocentric的偏见蒙蔽了，也别被左派的ideology给忽悠了。
哈哈，抄书抄得好累啊。
【在 G**8 的大作中提到】
: 我正好在学美国“史前”历史！你说的是野史，参杂了太多的后人解说。比如神马富兰
: 克林学习印第安社会结构：清朝被人打得满地找牙还硬撑着说“中学为用”，我不信富
: 兰克林在18世纪就有那么先进的人文理念！要知道当时连女人的投票权都没有！印第安
: 学西方，弄出一个山寨共和国倒是真的。
| w****j
发帖数: 5581 | 8 东部还有印第安保护区啊。比如最早接触欧洲殖民者的Wampanoags部落，现在在麻省
Duke County的Watuppa Wampanoag Reservation。2000年人口统计的时候就剩91个人了
。Wampanoags很悲愤的。在1970年，麻省Department of Commerce为纪念the Pilgrims
' Landing 350周年，邀请Wampanoag人Frank James（印第安名字Wamsutta）发
表演讲。但Frank James演讲稿没有通过审查，被噤声了（谁说只有共产党搞
censorship的）。如果麻省DOC给予他言论的自由，那么他在纪念仪式上将会发布如下
演讲（希望大家能耐心读下去，我觉得写得相当不错，白人挖人家坟的事情都是真的。
里面提到的印第安酋长的雕像应该还在，有在Plymouth的同学没有？）：
I speak to you as a man -- a Wampanoag Man. I am a proud man, proud of my
ancestry, my accomplishments won by a strict parental direction ("You must
succeed - your face is a different color in this small Cape Cod community!")
. I am a product of poverty and discrimination from these two social and
economic diseases. I, and my brothers and sisters, have painfully overcome,
and to some extent we have earned the respect of our community. We are
Indians first - but we are termed "good citizens." Sometimes we are arrogant
but only because society has pressured us to be so.
It is with mixed emotion that I stand here to share my thoughts. This is a
time of celebration for you - celebrating an anniversary of a beginning for
the white man in America. A time of looking back, of reflection. It is with
a heavy heart that I look back upon what happened to my People.
Even before the Pilgrims landed it was common practice for explorers to
capture Indians, take them to Europe and sell them as slaves for 220
shillings apiece. The Pilgrims had hardly explored the shores of Cape Cod
for four days before they had robbed the graves of my ancestors and stolen
their corn and beans. Mourt's Relation describes a searching party of
sixteen men. Mourt goes on to say that this party took as much of the
Indians' winter provisions as they were able to carry.
Massasoit, the great Sachem of the Wampanoag, knew these facts, yet he and
his People welcomed and befriended the settlers of the Plymouth Plantation.
Perhaps he did this because his Tribe had been depleted by an epidemic. Or
his knowledge of the harsh oncoming winter was the reason for his peaceful
acceptance of these acts. This action by Massasoit was perhaps our biggest
mistake. We, the Wampanoag, welcomed you, the white man, with open arms,
little knowing that it was the beginning of the end; that before 50 years
were to pass, the Wampanoag would no longer be a free people.
What happened in those short 50 years? What has happened in the last 300
years? History gives us facts and there were atrocities; there were broken
promises - and most of these centered around land ownership. Among ourselves
we understood that there were boundaries, but never before had we had to
deal with fences and stone walls. But the white man had a need to prove his
worth by the amount of land that he owned. Only ten years later, when the
Puritans came, they treated the Wampanoag with even less kindness in
converting the souls of the so-called "savages." Although the Puritans were
harsh to members of their own society, the Indian was pressed between stone
slabs and hanged as quickly as any other "witch."
And so down through the years there is record after record of Indian lands
taken and, in token, reservations set up for him upon which to live. The
Indian, having been stripped of his power, could only stand by and watch
while the white man took his land and used it for his personal gain. This
the Indian could not understand; for to him, land was survival, to farm, to
hunt, to be enjoyed. It was not to be abused. We see incident after incident
, where the white man sought to tame the "savage" and convert him to the
Christian ways of life. The early Pilgrim settlers led the Indian to believe
that if he did not behave, they would dig up the ground and unleash the
great epidemic again.
The white man used the Indian's nautical skills and abilities. They let him
be only a seaman -- but never a captain. Time and time again, in the white
man's society, we Indians have been termed "low man on the totem pole."
Has the Wampanoag really disappeared? There is still an aura of mystery. We
know there was an epidemic that took many Indian lives - some Wampanoags
moved west and joined the Cherokee and Cheyenne. They were forced to move.
Some even went north to Canada! Many Wampanoag put aside their Indian
heritage and accepted the white man's way for their own survival. There are
some Wampanoag who do not wish it known they are Indian for social or
economic reasons.
What happened to those Wampanoags who chose to remain and live among the
early settlers? What kind of existence did they live as "civilized" people?
True, living was not as complex as life today, but they dealt with the
confusion and the change. Honesty, trust, concern, pride, and politics wove
themselves in and out of their [the Wampanoags'] daily living. Hence, he was
termed crafty, cunning, rapacious, and dirty.
History wants us to believe that the Indian was a savage, illiterate,
uncivilized animal. A history that was written by an organized, disciplined
people, to expose us as an unorganized and undisciplined entity. Two
distinctly different cultures met. One thought they must control life; the
other believed life was to be enjoyed, because nature decreed it. Let us
remember, the Indian is and was just as human as the white man. The Indian
feels pain, gets hurt, and becomes defensive, has dreams, bears tragedy and
failure, suffers from loneliness, needs to cry as well as laugh. He, too, is
often misunderstood.
The white man in the presence of the Indian is still mystified by his
uncanny ability to make him feel uncomfortable. This may be the image the
white man has created of the Indian; his "savageness" has boomeranged and
isn't a mystery; it is fear; fear of the Indian's temperament!
High on a hill, overlooking the famed Plymouth Rock, stands the statue of
our great Sachem, Massasoit. Massasoit has stood there many years in silence
. We the descendants of this great Sachem have been a silent people. The
necessity of making a living in this materialistic society of the white man
caused us to be silent. Today, I and many of my people are choosing to face
the truth. We ARE Indians!
Although time has drained our culture, and our language is almost extinct,
we the Wampanoags still walk the lands of Massachusetts. We may be
fragmented, we may be confused. Many years have passed since we have been a
people together. Our lands were invaded. We fought as hard to keep our land
as you the whites did to take our land away from us. We were conquered, we
became the American prisoners of war in many cases, and wards of the United
States Government, until only recently.
Our spirit refuses to die. Yesterday we walked the woodland paths and sandy
trails. Today we must walk the macadam highways and roads. We are uniting We
're standing not in our wigwams but in your concrete tent. We stand tall and
proud, and before too many moons pass we'll right the wrongs we have
allowed to happen to us.
We forfeited our country. Our lands have fallen into the hands of the
aggressor. We have allowed the white man to keep us on our knees. What has
happened cannot be changed, but today we must work towards a more humane
America, a more Indian America, where men and nature once again are
important; where the Indian values of honor, truth, and brotherhood prevail.
You the white man are celebrating an anniversary. We the Wampanoags will
help you celebrate in the concept of a beginning. It was the beginning of a
new life for the Pilgrims. Now, 350 years later it is a beginning of a new
determination for the original American: the American Indian.
There are some factors concerning the Wampanoags and other Indians across
this vast nation. We now have 350 years of experience living amongst the
white man. We can now speak his language. We can now think as a white man
thinks. We can now compete with him for the top jobs. We're being heard; we
are now being listened to. The important point is that along with these
necessities of everyday living, we still have the spirit, we still have the
unique culture, we still have the will and, most important of all, the
determination to remain as Indians. We are determined, and our presence here
this evening is living testimony that this is only the beginning of the
American Indian, particularly the Wampanoag, to regain the position in this
country that is rightfully ours.
Wamsutta September 10, 1970
【在 h******x 的大作中提到】
:
: 有兴趣啊，多讲讲印地安人。在东部还有什么遗迹吗？似乎被扫得干干净净
| w****j
发帖数: 5581 | 9 我觉得有必要呼吁一下，来美国的中国人，如果还对美国历史有点兴趣的话，别老从白
人传统角度看问题。白人至上的观点在白人中间流行还可以理解，在中国人中间也流行
就有点怪异了，尤其是这种ethnocentric的历史观不仅不符合史实，对现实中的美国政
治气氛也是有毒害作用的，特别是对非欧洲裔的移民的政治和经济权利的损害。有色人
种在美国的悲惨历史有必要心中有数。要有争取自己权益的所需要的知识和勇气。 | G**8
发帖数: 1209 | 10 你牛。我决定活剥你这篇帖子写篇小paper(弱化一下观点)，拿个A不成问题啊。哈哈。
教这门课的教授是白人，很左，整个一反人类、反社会的标本。
不过我还是很难想象白人自由民大规模去印第安，也许是逃亡的白奴或者罪犯吧。早期
殖民地的奴隶以白人为主！曾经达到人口的1/10以上。
Pilgrims
【在 w****j 的大作中提到】
: 东部还有印第安保护区啊。比如最早接触欧洲殖民者的Wampanoags部落，现在在麻省
: Duke County的Watuppa Wampanoag Reservation。2000年人口统计的时候就剩91个人了
: 。Wampanoags很悲愤的。在1970年，麻省Department of Commerce为纪念the Pilgrims
: ' Landing 350周年，邀请Wampanoag人Frank James（印第安名字Wamsutta）发
: 表演讲。但Frank James演讲稿没有通过审查，被噤声了（谁说只有共产党搞
: censorship的）。如果麻省DOC给予他言论的自由，那么他在纪念仪式上将会发布如下
: 演讲（希望大家能耐心读下去，我觉得写得相当不错，白人挖人家坟的事情都是真的。
: 里面提到的印第安酋长的雕像应该还在，有在Plymouth的同学没有？）：
: I speak to you as a man -- a Wampanoag Man. I am a proud man, proud of my
: ancestry, my accomplishments won by a strict parental direction ("You must
| w****j
发帖数: 5581 | 11 呵呵，没问题啊。不过提醒一下，对于我放的引用，你最好查一下原始出处。网上写东
西和学术要求毕竟不样，小心一点没错。我只是抄书，没有核对过原始材料。
你说的白人奴隶指的是不是indentured servants? 早期殖民地因为拿到土地比较容易
，农场主就想出这种东西，和现在偷渡组织的做法有点像。Indentured servants比奴
隶的地位还是好多了，还了钱就自由了。你能就这个话题zkss么？
【在 G**8 的大作中提到】
: 你牛。我决定活剥你这篇帖子写篇小paper(弱化一下观点)，拿个A不成问题啊。哈哈。
: 教这门课的教授是白人，很左，整个一反人类、反社会的标本。
: 不过我还是很难想象白人自由民大规模去印第安，也许是逃亡的白奴或者罪犯吧。早期
: 殖民地的奴隶以白人为主！曾经达到人口的1/10以上。
:
: Pilgrims
|
|
