R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 1 圣经里谈到恶人的下场： 因为作恶的，必被剪除。惟有等候耶和华的，必承受地土。还
有片时，恶人要归于无有。你就是细察他的住处，也要归于无有。（诗篇37：9-11）
剪除这个词最能概括恶人的结局，就是挑出来，除掉。我已经在博文里例举了经文，说
明死亡在希伯来语圣经就是归于尘土，来自上帝的灵归回上帝，复活的时候可能再还给
我们。魂本身就是生命的意思，所以不存在一个人死后，魂还没有死。（见传道书9：5
-10等）人死了，魂就死了。
上帝是创造生命的主，虽然我们不知道他是怎么造天使的，但是我们知道人是由尘土造
出来的。死亡就是哪里来，还是归回哪里。人死了就是归回尘土。
恶人的下场就是死亡，不用担心BBQ。 但是恶人永远没有生命的机会了。没有了生命，
还有什么呢？一切都消失了。
这才是上帝的仁爱和智慧。他又何苦搞个地狱来折磨人， 哪里有什么智慧和仁爱，分明
是小肚鸡肠，以折磨人为乐嘛。这一说法 完全是对上帝的诽谤和污蔑。地狱也很可能是
撒旦搞出的又一个谎言，目的就是诽谤上帝。（魔鬼和撒旦意思就是诽谤者和欺骗者的
意思）
关于恶人的下场，圣经还有很多：
诗篇145：17-20耶和华在他一切所行的，无不公义。在他一切所作的，都有慈爱。18凡
求告耶和华的，就是诚心求告他的，耶和华便与他们相近。19敬畏他的，他必成就他们
的心愿。也必听他们的呼求，拯救他们。20耶和华保护一切爱他的人，却要灭绝一切的
恶人。
上帝对恶人也是爱的，不希望他们灭绝，但是他是公义的上帝，绝不会容忍恶的存在，
恶人不悔改的话，一定死亡：以西结书33：11
你对他们说，主耶和华说，我指着我的永生起誓，我断不喜悦恶人死亡，惟喜悦恶人转
离所行的道而活。以色列家阿，你们转回，转回吧。离开恶道，何必死亡呢？
永生，就是完美的人类跟上帝亲密无间的在一起。（启示录21：3，4）按照上帝的标准
，现在的人都是不完美的，本来没有一个能成为义人的，
传道书7：20：时常行善而不犯罪的义人，世上实在没有。
但是，他在我们现在的这个时期，宁可暂时降低他的标准，将就人的属性，愿意查看人
的内心，那是因为尽管人是不完美的，人同时具有上帝赋予的良心。一个人如果按照自
己良心行事的，上帝就看作内心正直的人。
诗篇11：4-7耶和华在他的圣殿里，耶和华的宝座在天上。他的慧眼察看世人。5耶和华
试验义人。惟有恶人和喜爱强暴的人，他心里恨恶。6 他要向恶人密布网罗。有烈火，
硫磺，热风，作他们杯中的分。7因为耶和华是公义的。他喜爱公义。正直人必得见他的
面。
耶稣到来后，上帝更是广开救赎的大门，凡是信从耶稣的，就是义人了：罗马书10：9-
10：你若口里认耶稣为主，心里信神叫他从死里复活，就必得救。10因为人心里相信，
就可以称义。口里承认，就可以得救。
耶稣身上，完美的反应了上帝的品格，耶稣的所行所为，代表了上帝对世人的怜悯和仁
慈。上帝的品格在耶稣身上表现无疑。耶稣甚至为杀害他的人祷告，告诉我们怎样对待
恨我们的人。
耶稣要不久再次回来，到时候人人都要看见耶稣。启示录1：7：看哪，他在云中来临，
每一个人的眼都会看见他，…..
为什么说到时候会有很多人立即接受他而跟从他呢？从耶稣临死前跟一个被行刑的罪犯
的对话中，我们就可以看出来。
路加福音23：39-43 那同钉的两个犯人，有一个讥诮他说，你不是基督吗？可以救自己
和我们吧。40那一个就应声责备他说，你既是一样受刑的，还不怕神吗？41我们是应该
的。因我们所受的，与我们所作的相称。但这个人没有作过一件不好的事。42就说，耶
稣阿，你得国降临的时候，求你记念我。43耶稣对他说，我今日实在告诉你，你要同我
在乐园里。
第二个犯人，求耶稣在王国来到的时候记得他。 耶稣就答应了。
我们要问：这个犯人是被拣选的基督徒吗？肯定不是，因为他并没有经历过圣灵的重生
，灵性的改变等等。这个人是个"好人"吗？他一定违反了犹太人的律法，被判死刑，他
自己也承认了。
从这个人的说话，反应出来的是他的内心情况，愿意悔改，还是个正直的人，所以，耶
稣就应许他在千禧年的王国里再次见面。
从耶稣对待这个两个犯人态度上，我们不难推断将来耶稣回来时审判人的标准。
一个人犯罪，情况是不同的，有的是内心刚硬，故意犯罪，有的是被人引诱，失足犯罪
。有的做了恶事，丝毫没有悔改之意，有的过后悔恨无比。将来的审判，很大程度要取
决于一个人的内心状况。
所以圣经一再告诉我们不要审判人，因为我们没有论断人的能力。同样，一个教义如果
已经把人定了生死了，可以肯定就是一个错误的教义。比如信耶稣就得救，不信耶稣的
就下地狱。哪里有这么简单的？千万别还告诉别人，这就是上帝的旨意，这不是无意中
做了亵渎上帝的事情吗？哥林多前书4：5所以时候未到，什么都不要论断，只等主来，
他要照出暗中的隐情，显明人心的意念。那时各人要从神那里得着称赞。
雅各书4：12设立律法和判断人的，只有一位，就是那能救人也能灭人的。你是谁，竟敢
论断别人呢？
彼得前书1：17你们既称那不偏待人，按各人行为审判人的主为父，就当存敬畏的心，…
…
另外一次审判就是在千禧年之后的大白宝座的审判（启示录20：11）那个时候，真正被
上帝判为恶人的才会复活。让他们死也死个明白，然后，他们的下场跟撒旦一样，就被
彻底毁灭了。 | c****g
发帖数: 3893 | 2 你这个在本板是绝对的异端.
。还
：5
【在 R*o 的大作中提到】
: 圣经里谈到恶人的下场： 因为作恶的，必被剪除。惟有等候耶和华的，必承受地土。还
: 有片时，恶人要归于无有。你就是细察他的住处，也要归于无有。（诗篇37：9-11）
: 剪除这个词最能概括恶人的结局，就是挑出来，除掉。我已经在博文里例举了经文，说
: 明死亡在希伯来语圣经就是归于尘土，来自上帝的灵归回上帝，复活的时候可能再还给
: 我们。魂本身就是生命的意思，所以不存在一个人死后，魂还没有死。（见传道书9：5
: -10等）人死了，魂就死了。
: 上帝是创造生命的主，虽然我们不知道他是怎么造天使的，但是我们知道人是由尘土造
: 出来的。死亡就是哪里来，还是归回哪里。人死了就是归回尘土。
: 恶人的下场就是死亡，不用担心BBQ。 但是恶人永远没有生命的机会了。没有了生命，
: 还有什么呢？一切都消失了。
| R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 3 calvinism is a cult
【在 c****g 的大作中提到】
: 你这个在本板是绝对的异端.
:
: 。还
: ：5
| c****g
发帖数: 3893 | 4 你个异端!
【在 R*o 的大作中提到】
: calvinism is a cult
| h*o
发帖数: 1035 | 5 异端
你个异端!
★ Sent from iPhone App: iReader Mitbbs Lite 7.20
【在 c****g 的大作中提到】
: 你个异端!
| R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 6 only calvinists will go to eternal punishment in hell with satan.
calvinists worship satan
【在 h*o 的大作中提到】
: 异端
:
: 你个异端!
: ★ Sent from iPhone App: iReader Mitbbs Lite 7.20
| w**********1
发帖数: 2588 | 7 除了魂，还有灵.
人死就灰飞烟灭 很难保证不出现 死后哪管洪水滔天 的心态。
罪恶便难以得到制约。
。还
：5
【在 R*o 的大作中提到】
: 圣经里谈到恶人的下场： 因为作恶的，必被剪除。惟有等候耶和华的，必承受地土。还
: 有片时，恶人要归于无有。你就是细察他的住处，也要归于无有。（诗篇37：9-11）
: 剪除这个词最能概括恶人的结局，就是挑出来，除掉。我已经在博文里例举了经文，说
: 明死亡在希伯来语圣经就是归于尘土，来自上帝的灵归回上帝，复活的时候可能再还给
: 我们。魂本身就是生命的意思，所以不存在一个人死后，魂还没有死。（见传道书9：5
: -10等）人死了，魂就死了。
: 上帝是创造生命的主，虽然我们不知道他是怎么造天使的，但是我们知道人是由尘土造
: 出来的。死亡就是哪里来，还是归回哪里。人死了就是归回尘土。
: 恶人的下场就是死亡，不用担心BBQ。 但是恶人永远没有生命的机会了。没有了生命，
: 还有什么呢？一切都消失了。
| R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 8 The Millennial Kingdom Reign of Jesus Christ will solve your problem.
【在 w**********1 的大作中提到】
: 除了魂，还有灵.
: 人死就灰飞烟灭 很难保证不出现 死后哪管洪水滔天 的心态。
: 罪恶便难以得到制约。
:
: 。还
: ：5
| w**********1
发帖数: 2588 | 9 在今生给过机会而顽固不化的，
Millennial Kingdom 再给一次机会，
是不合理的。。
否则对某些人而言，今生放纵，反正还有 Millennial Kingdom
【在 R*o 的大作中提到】
: The Millennial Kingdom Reign of Jesus Christ will solve your problem.
| R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 10 what chance you give me?
calvinism?
Calvinists are teaching fasle gospel
no wonder ppl won't trust in Jesus
most of us were predestined to hell? You call it good news?
that's why there are so many different sects of chritianity in this world. t
hat's why we are waiting for Jesus's second coming and his personal reign on
this world.
Bible read Romans 10:13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord wil
l be saved." But Calvinists teach that TULIP is the truth. Christian is no
t christian if he/she does not accept TULIP.
【在 w**********1 的大作中提到】
: 在今生给过机会而顽固不化的，
: Millennial Kingdom 再给一次机会，
: 是不合理的。。
: 否则对某些人而言，今生放纵，反正还有 Millennial Kingdom
| | | w**********1
发帖数: 2588 | 11 I am NOT a Calvinist.
But it does not mean that I totally agree with you.
t
on
wil
no
【在 R*o 的大作中提到】
: what chance you give me?
: calvinism?
: Calvinists are teaching fasle gospel
: no wonder ppl won't trust in Jesus
: most of us were predestined to hell? You call it good news?
: that's why there are so many different sects of chritianity in this world. t
: hat's why we are waiting for Jesus's second coming and his personal reign on
: this world.
: Bible read Romans 10:13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord wil
: l be saved." But Calvinists teach that TULIP is the truth. Christian is no
| R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 12 trinity is OK with me.
eternal punishment has no bible basis
(but what can I say if one person agree their grandparents will go to hell?)
I only feel disgusted about 5 points of calvinism.
【在 w**********1 的大作中提到】
: I am NOT a Calvinist.
: But it does not mean that I totally agree with you.
:
: t
: on
: wil
: no
| w**********1
发帖数: 2588 | 13 About the eternal punishment:
I would like to accept: it depends on how God evaluate every specific person
, since the situation for everyone are not all the same, such
as someone may have no chance to hear from the gospel, or someone was
born before the Christ Jesus (before B.C), or some children were
aborted. I believe the God will fairly consider all these specific
condition objectively, since Bible says God may also judge people
base on their conscience if they have no opportuinity to receive gospel.
However, about the family relationship, such as "grandparent",
it depends on how one's grandparent acted during his life time,
rather than relationship, since God is NOT favoritism. Such as
Judas (who betrayed Jesus Christ) may go to hell, regardless of
who is his grandson or grandpa. However, if Judas's relatives
did good in God's sight, then they will be saved regardless of
they had Judas as their relative.
Therefore, it maybe pessimism in some extent for what you mentioned,
but the only way is to let those who still live receive the gospel
of Christ Jesus so that they maybe saved. And even if Judas will go
to hell, he may still feel happy if he knows his children or his other
relatives receive the gospel and go to heaven. Just as bible tells:
【Luk16:19】 'There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen
and lived in luxury every day.
【Luk16:20】 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores
【Luk16:21】 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even
the dogs came and licked his sores.
【Luk16:22】 'The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him
to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried.
【Luk16:23】 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham
far away, with Lazarus by his side.
【Luk16:24】 So he called to him, `Father Abraham, have pity on me and send
Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I
am in agony in this fire.'
【Luk16:25】 'But Abraham replied, `Son, remember that in your lifetime you
received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is
comforted here and you are in agony.
【Luk16:26】 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been
fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone
cross over from there to us.'
【Luk16:27】 'He answered, `Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my
father's house,
【Luk16:28】 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
will not also come to this place of torment.'
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So give up the gospel only because of relationship of family is
not wise, for nobody can change what has already happened, and may
even make the "grandparent" feel sad.
?) | R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 14 just a short reply first. I will reply more later on.
eternal punishment is OK as long as believe God is love.
God love all of us. So our beloved kin won't be tormented forever.
God is love....
person
【在 w**********1 的大作中提到】
: About the eternal punishment:
: I would like to accept: it depends on how God evaluate every specific person
: , since the situation for everyone are not all the same, such
: as someone may have no chance to hear from the gospel, or someone was
: born before the Christ Jesus (before B.C), or some children were
: aborted. I believe the God will fairly consider all these specific
: condition objectively, since Bible says God may also judge people
: base on their conscience if they have no opportuinity to receive gospel.
: However, about the family relationship, such as "grandparent",
: it depends on how one's grandparent acted during his life time,
| R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 15 I think most ppl in today's world do have chance to hear the gospel, includi
ng our parents and grandparents. Will they go into eternal punishment if t
hey choose not to be a Christian? You think this is the justice of God for
sending our beloved relatives to hell? We know no one is perfect. Do they
really deserve this extreme punishment?
I think today's gospel does not accurately represent Jesus' teaching. Ppl w
on't be punished for rejecting a deteriorated gospel. (Think about the diff
erent contradicting Christian Denominations in this world. ) Otherwise mos
t of us should have accepted the "good news". (that's also the reason why J
ohn Calvin came up with a doctrine of limited atonement)
There is a millennial kingdom waiting for us. Our beloved kin will resurrec
t and see Jesus in person if they are righteous. Some of our bad relatives
(I don't think any of my kin is that bad though) will stay at death but stil
l can hear the good news. Most likely, our "bad" relatives will confess the
ir sin before the one-thousand year reign ends.
Is this the right gospel that shows God's love to all human being? I am sea
rching for biblical evidence for this "gospel" which you may call heresy.
person
【在 w**********1 的大作中提到】
: About the eternal punishment:
: I would like to accept: it depends on how God evaluate every specific person
: , since the situation for everyone are not all the same, such
: as someone may have no chance to hear from the gospel, or someone was
: born before the Christ Jesus (before B.C), or some children were
: aborted. I believe the God will fairly consider all these specific
: condition objectively, since Bible says God may also judge people
: base on their conscience if they have no opportuinity to receive gospel.
: However, about the family relationship, such as "grandparent",
: it depends on how one's grandparent acted during his life time,
| R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 16 thanks for share the "bad news" of Luke 16 with me :)
there is no evidence of eteral punishment though.
I googled this comments on Luke 16:19-31
"Now I must distinguish between the judgment that falls upon us immediately
after death and the Day of Judgment that we see in such places as Rev. 20:11
-15"
"In our story in Luke 16 the rich man died and went to Hades which is a temp
orary holding area of hell, where the condemned souls await the Final Judgme
nt and their bodies being resurrected and being cast into hell forever."
I don't agree that the ppl in "temporary hell " described in Luke 16:19-31 w
ill surely go into the "eternal hell" in the Final Judgement.
In Rev 20:12, the book of life will be opened whiling judging the dead. Dea
d ppl still have chances! :) (call me heresy, bro)
person
【在 w**********1 的大作中提到】
: About the eternal punishment:
: I would like to accept: it depends on how God evaluate every specific person
: , since the situation for everyone are not all the same, such
: as someone may have no chance to hear from the gospel, or someone was
: born before the Christ Jesus (before B.C), or some children were
: aborted. I believe the God will fairly consider all these specific
: condition objectively, since Bible says God may also judge people
: base on their conscience if they have no opportuinity to receive gospel.
: However, about the family relationship, such as "grandparent",
: it depends on how one's grandparent acted during his life time,
| w**********1
发帖数: 2588 | 17 I still tend to agree with "eternal punishment", but relate to the
problem of people who do not have chance to become Christian, the
verses in Roman may apply:
【Rom2:12】 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the
law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
【Rom2:13】 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's
sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
【Rom2:14】 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
though they do not have the law,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
【Rom2:15】 since they show that the requirements of the law are
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
【Rom2:16】 This will take place on the day when God will judge men's
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just for your information. Since I disagree with the way that may
practically encourage wickedness during current age.
btw:
What I disagree with Calvin is about its "limited atonement".
includi
t
for
they
w
diff
mos
J | G*****9
发帖数: 3225 | | R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 19 no,
Rom 2 only applys to a remote village where people really hear nothing abou
t Jesus Christ.
Our kin should have heard the "gospel". If not, you call them tonight. :D
I understand your concerns. But even if your interpretation of gospel is t
rue, a person still can accept Jesus right before his last breath. Does thi
s example encourage wickedness? I could take your life and still go to hea
ve with you, as long as I confess before my last breath. Does it show God'
s justice?
Something we cannot understand and solve in our whole life. But there is on
e thing we always can depend on. That's God's love. I believe God love us
and have a good plan for every one of us. I am sure we all are going to hea
ve, even the Calvinists.
s
【在 w**********1 的大作中提到】
: I still tend to agree with "eternal punishment", but relate to the
: problem of people who do not have chance to become Christian, the
: verses in Roman may apply:
: 【Rom2:12】 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the
: law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
: 【Rom2:13】 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's
: sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
: 【Rom2:14】 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even
| R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 20 I am not christian.
I try to find a good healthy theology for my christian friend :)
【在 G*****9 的大作中提到】
: 呵呵，几个基督徒开始掐了。
| | | w**********1
发帖数: 2588 | 21 How to evaluate whether the gospel is heard in an effective way is
a problem, if assume that someone is deaf (can not hear) or
foreigner whom can not understand the gospel.
So for these kind of detail problems, I believe the loving God will
judge in a reasonable way case by case.
For the problem such as someone "kill a person and then believe",
it depends on whether the killer will be killed by the self-defence
of whom he/she try to kill, as well as whether he will still alive
before he try to believe. Since nobody exactly knows when he/she will
die.
abou
t
thi
hea
God'
on
【在 R*o 的大作中提到】
: no,
: Rom 2 only applys to a remote village where people really hear nothing abou
: t Jesus Christ.
: Our kin should have heard the "gospel". If not, you call them tonight. :D
: I understand your concerns. But even if your interpretation of gospel is t
: rue, a person still can accept Jesus right before his last breath. Does thi
: s example encourage wickedness? I could take your life and still go to hea
: ve with you, as long as I confess before my last breath. Does it show God'
: s justice?
: Something we cannot understand and solve in our whole life. But there is on
| l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | 22 四叔不是基
【在 G*****9 的大作中提到】
: 呵呵，几个基督徒开始掐了。
| G*****9
发帖数: 3225 | 23 哦？那我就不观战了。
【在 l*****a 的大作中提到】
: 四叔不是基
|
|
