y********n 发帖数: 2063 | 1 File: HH20131027 Hydra #5 - $0.10-$0.25 - USD No Limit Hold'em.txt
PokerStars Zoom Hand #106138690731: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2013/
10/27 21:41:50 ET
Table 'Hydra' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: swand ($24.20 in chips)
Seat 2: Quisut ($25.98 in chips)
Seat 3: hahaChina ($13.30 in chips)
Seat 4: aecdragon ($27.62 in chips)
Seat 5: luchoq10 ($22.33 in chips)
Seat 6: alitostar ($25.59 in chips)
Quisut: posts small blind $0.10
hahaChina: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to aecdragon [Jd Jc]
aecdragon: raises $0.45 to $0.70
luchoq10: folds
alitostar: raises $1.50 to $2.20
swand: folds
Quisut: folds
hahaChina: folds
aecdragon: calls $1.50
*** FLOP *** [3h 5d 4s]
aecdragon: checks
alitostar: bets $2.60
aecdragon: raises $3.40 to $6
alitostar: raises $17.39 to $23.39 and is all-in
aecdragon: calls $17.39
*** TURN *** [3h 5d 4s] [8s]
*** RIVER *** [3h 5d 4s 8s] [4h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
aecdragon: shows [Jd Jc] (two pair, Jacks and Fours)
alitostar: shows [As Ad] (two pair, Aces and Fours)
alitostar collected $49.53 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $51.53 | Rake $2
Board [3h 5d 4s 8s 4h]
Seat 1: swand (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Quisut (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: hahaChina (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: aecdragon showed [Jd Jc] and lost with two pair, Jacks and Fours
Seat 5: luchoq10 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: alitostar showed [As Ad] and won ($49.53) with two pair, Aces and
Fours | W********m 发帖数: 7793 | 2 without any HUD information, it is hard to comment. if you and vallian both
have a very aggressive image (raise a lot on the flop), i suppose he could
do this reshove with AK as well... | f**********0 发帖数: 29 | 3 这手牌有点像cooler. (100bb,6-max).
感觉没有太多的腾挪余地。我的看法是:
I am assuming that he C-bet his whole range on this flop. If you check-call
the flop, after the turn card came out, you check the turn. At this stage, I
am thinking he would probably check AK, AQ, KQ, 66, 77, 99 behind and he
was going to bet AA, KK, QQ, JJ, sets, turned flush draw. 我的感觉是,面对正
常的选手,你如果采取check-call, check turn 的打法, 他继续下注, 你落后的可
能性特别大。
当形势不明时, 应check-call 静观其变, 以获取更多的信息。 | f**********0 发帖数: 29 | | q****8 发帖数: 3281 | 5 It is hard to say which play would be the best without read.
It is tough to play JJ oop facing 3-bet, you have 2 general choices:
1. 4-bet and call shove preflop. You get easy decisions by using this way,
but the cost is higher variance.
2. Call 3-bet, then take check-call or check-raise line based on board. It
is tough to play this way against a good aggressive player without position. | y********n 发帖数: 2063 | 6 ------>to be honest, this is not a good choice, since the villain leverages
us. If we played this way, we only will put our money into bad situation.
The result is kind of winning small, lose big.
position.
If villain's 3bet range is polarized, I think usually we will break even on
this kind of call.
If villain's 3bet range is depolarized, I do not know exactly, but will
guess I will lose some money on average. option is donk big on the flop.
For this perticular hand, I guess I will lose big in general.
On the flop:
Options include donk beting big on the flop, or check/raise flop and fold to
the shove. But I do not know which option is better.
position. | y********n 发帖数: 2063 | 7 ------> this is the solid play.
------>you are correct. But villain could bet turn smallish with 88, 99, tt
to control pot, and decide to check back on the river, it is very tough
situation on almost any turn card.
On the river, villain will play perfectly against us no matter what he has.
call
I | d*****0 发帖数: 1500 | 8 我去啊,没有任何数据 来讨论这手牌 不是纯浪费时间么
对手btn位的3bet频率和3bet range,以及你在对手眼里的pfr和call 3bet/4bet%,
包括对手的3bet pot cbet%,wsst,整体af,总赢率,每一条都影响到你在这里的决策
如果是信息全无,abc,哥推荐fold preflop,最省钱了 | W********m 发帖数: 7793 | 9 很难听,很尖酸。 版二有版大化的趋势。 不妙~
决策
【在 d*****0 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 我去啊,没有任何数据 来讨论这手牌 不是纯浪费时间么 : 对手btn位的3bet频率和3bet range,以及你在对手眼里的pfr和call 3bet/4bet%, : 包括对手的3bet pot cbet%,wsst,整体af,总赢率,每一条都影响到你在这里的决策 : 如果是信息全无,abc,哥推荐fold preflop,最省钱了
| y********n 发帖数: 2063 | 10 实际情况就是没有数据,而且有数据,对手也会根据你的打法也会调整相应的数据。
所以在这里讨论数据的意义不是很大。
如果一定要讲数据的话,就假设对手是个普通reg好了。
决策
【在 d*****0 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 我去啊,没有任何数据 来讨论这手牌 不是纯浪费时间么 : 对手btn位的3bet频率和3bet range,以及你在对手眼里的pfr和call 3bet/4bet%, : 包括对手的3bet pot cbet%,wsst,整体af,总赢率,每一条都影响到你在这里的决策 : 如果是信息全无,abc,哥推荐fold preflop,最省钱了
| | | E*******r 发帖数: 520 | 11 这版三位置岌岌可危丫。
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 很难听,很尖酸。 版二有版大化的趋势。 不妙~ : : 决策
| d*****0 发帖数: 1500 | 12
前提条件是,彼此之间信息全无
我的一点看法
1 以你所在的ps 25NL的整个player pool的信息为基础,做决定。比如大牛你前几万手
牌里,包括你involved或者是旁观的3bet pot的%,preflop是不是经常3bet 4bet,整
体的commit pot的hand strength,hand showdown的比例,整体的aggression程度(即
大多数时候,这个级别的game是soft或者是push hard)等等。哥觉得在相对soft的
game environment里,JJ在这里call 3bet oop,以pot control为基础play post flop
问题不大,换言之,marginal。而在非常pushy的game里,postflop会变得异常难打,
大多数情况下ended up猜对手有没有牌,大的variance不可避免。
2 从game flow的角度来讲,其实你这手牌的任何应对,都会对未来该桌的dynamic,以
及你跟另外5个对手(尤其是本手的villain)之间的未来的交手做铺垫。换言之,无论
你怎么打这手牌,好好利用这手牌的结果,在将来可以获得远远超出你这手牌的实际得
失。就比如你这把牌在postflop把整个stack都兜进去了,a你至少确立了一个tough的
桌面形象,减小了以后被人postflop bluffing push的%,潜在的避免了很多maginal
situation。b如果对手是pro的话(这个级别,哥非常怀疑),他会凭这手牌
categorize你的preflop的4bet range,你给他的image是polarized 4bet或者no 4bet
at all,建立了你的deceiving 4bet range。
3 哥自己的经历,感觉25NL毕竟属于micro stake,大多数对手犯错误的频率大到,其
犯错送出的价值足以支付你为了避免variance而放弃的一些equity。导致,普通情况下
,weaktight打法,都能在micro级别保平争胜。尤其是多桌,尽量避免marginal
situation是避免自己忙中出错的一个好方法。这就是哥建议fold JJ oop preflop的原
因。
当然,这手牌具体怎么打,flop下来应不应该check/call,turn re-evaluate,或者
直接overbet shove,或者raise commit,在哥看来都是差不多,因为spr已经达到4比1
。哥稍微倾向于以这个级别整体的tendency为基础做决定。
还有一点,对手并不知道你拿着JJ,所以preflop fold并不会真的hurt你的形象,相同
情况下,哥更愿意拿着trash 3bet IP,而dump掉这手牌。
【在 y********n 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 实际情况就是没有数据,而且有数据,对手也会根据你的打法也会调整相应的数据。 : 所以在这里讨论数据的意义不是很大。 : 如果一定要讲数据的话,就假设对手是个普通reg好了。 : : 决策
| q****8 发帖数: 3281 | 13 If you think tt,99,88 are also in his 3-bet range, why not 4-bet preflop?
tt
【在 y********n 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 实际情况就是没有数据,而且有数据,对手也会根据你的打法也会调整相应的数据。 : 所以在这里讨论数据的意义不是很大。 : 如果一定要讲数据的话,就假设对手是个普通reg好了。 : : 决策
| q****8 发帖数: 3281 | 14 If you think tt,99,88 are also in his 3-bet range, why not 4-bet preflop?
tt
【在 y********n 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 实际情况就是没有数据,而且有数据,对手也会根据你的打法也会调整相应的数据。 : 所以在这里讨论数据的意义不是很大。 : 如果一定要讲数据的话,就假设对手是个普通reg好了。 : : 决策
| y********n 发帖数: 2063 | 15 JJ is the strong part of our value hands. If we 4bet, we have to get it
allin preflop. The problem is that JJ is underdog when it gets allin, since
villain will fold AQ, TT, 99, 88.
If I do want to 4bet, I will 4bet with deep polarized range, such as AA, KK,
AK, 9Ts, A4s.... JJ is not in that range.
【在 q****8 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : If you think tt,99,88 are also in his 3-bet range, why not 4-bet preflop? : : tt
| y********n 发帖数: 2063 | 16 前提条件是,彼此之间信息全无
我的一点看法
1 以你所在的ps 25NL的整个player pool的信息为基础,做决定。比如大牛你前几万手
牌里,包括你involved或者是旁观的3bet pot的%,preflop是不是经常3bet 4bet,整
体的commit pot的hand strength,hand showdown的比例,整体的aggression程度(即
大多数时候,这个级别的game是soft或者是push hard)等等。哥觉得在相对soft的
game environment里,JJ在这里call 3bet oop,以pot control为基础play post flop
问题不大,换言之,marginal。而在非常pushy的game里,postflop会变得异常难打,
大多数情况下ended up猜对手有没有牌,大的variance不可避免。
----------Yes, you are right.
而在非常pushy的game里,postflop会变得异常难打,
大多数情况下ended up猜对手有没有牌,大的variance不可避免。
2 从game flow的角度来讲,其实你这手牌的任何应对,都会对未来该桌的dynamic,以
及你跟另外5个对手(尤其是本手的villain)之间的未来的交手做铺垫。换言之,无论
你怎么打这手牌,好好利用这手牌的结果,在将来可以获得远远超出你这手牌的实际得
失。就比如你这把牌在postflop把整个stack都兜进去了,a你至少确立了一个tough的
桌面形象,减小了以后被人postflop bluffing push的%,潜在的避免了很多maginal
situation。b如果对手是pro的话(这个级别,哥非常怀疑),他会凭这手牌
categorize你的preflop的4bet range,你给他的image是polarized 4bet或者no 4bet
at all,建立了你的deceiving 4bet range。
------------>It is Zoom, the same as rush poker. This is not a big
consideration.
You are right again. I do that shit sometimes, then regs will stay away from
me.
3 哥自己的经历,感觉25NL毕竟属于micro stake,大多数对手犯错误的频率大到,其
犯错送出的价值足以支付你为了避免variance而放弃的一些equity。导致,普通情况下
,weaktight打法,都能在micro级别保平争胜。尤其是多桌,尽量避免marginal
situation是避免自己忙中出错的一个好方法。这就是哥建议fold JJ oop preflop的原
因。
------->You will get 3bet a ton in 6max, some hands are ridiculous, such as
K5o, J7o, we will never fold JJ.
I already change my fold to 3bet pct from 50% to 58%.
当然,这手牌具体怎么打,flop下来应不应该check/call,turn re-evaluate,或者
直接overbet shove,或者raise commit,在哥看来都是差不多,因为spr已经达到4比1
。哥稍微倾向于以这个级别整体的tendency为基础做决定。
---------这个级别整体的tendency为基础: 这个级别的3Bet percentage可不低。也有
6%--8%. 如果盲注vsBTN,这个级别整体的3B% 可能会达到8%,有些选手的数据是15%,
尽管数据有点少。
还有一点,对手并不知道你拿着JJ,所以preflop fold并不会真的hurt你的形象,相同
情况下,哥更愿意拿着trash 3bet IP,而dump掉这手牌。
---------dump掉这手牌 is one choice, I will consider it sometimes. If the
villain does not 3bet often enough, and I am OOP, I do fold some AKo,
because it has no implied odds, plus I will get owned post-flop.
But JJ is very easy to play post-flop, I will usually(95% chance) not
consider fold it preflop.
flop
【在 d*****0 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : : 前提条件是,彼此之间信息全无 : 我的一点看法 : 1 以你所在的ps 25NL的整个player pool的信息为基础,做决定。比如大牛你前几万手 : 牌里,包括你involved或者是旁观的3bet pot的%,preflop是不是经常3bet 4bet,整 : 体的commit pot的hand strength,hand showdown的比例,整体的aggression程度(即 : 大多数时候,这个级别的game是soft或者是push hard)等等。哥觉得在相对soft的 : game environment里,JJ在这里call 3bet oop,以pot control为基础play post flop : 问题不大,换言之,marginal。而在非常pushy的game里,postflop会变得异常难打, : 大多数情况下ended up猜对手有没有牌,大的variance不可避免。
| q****8 发帖数: 3281 | 17 I agree what u said.
but I prefer to flat in position, and 4bet oop.
At .1/.25 level, I dont think many players would fold tt,99,88, aq to 4bet
if they 3bet it.
since
KK,
【在 y********n 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : JJ is the strong part of our value hands. If we 4bet, we have to get it : allin preflop. The problem is that JJ is underdog when it gets allin, since : villain will fold AQ, TT, 99, 88. : If I do want to 4bet, I will 4bet with deep polarized range, such as AA, KK, : AK, 9Ts, A4s.... JJ is not in that range.
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