r****r
发帖数: 1394 | 1 what if he value bets KQ on river? any chance?
PokerStars Game #50857027559: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10 USD) -
2010/10/09 19:08:35 ET
Table 'Shedir IV' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 2: 鋝sadpooleks ($12.42 in chips)
Seat 3: ihernand82 ($10.42 in chips)
Seat 4: hero ($7.60 in chips)
Seat 6: calamaroweb ($13.16 in chips)
Seat 7: 45f5 ($3.40 in chips)
Seat 8: Chris.5X ($7.54 in chips)
Seat 9: fujiyoto ($17.76 in chips)
HDJTHEFIRST will be allowed to play after the button
calamaroweb: posts small blind $0.05
45f5: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to hero [6h 6s]
Chris.5X: folds
fujiyoto: folds
鋝sadpooleks: raises $0.20 to $0.30
ihernand82: folds
hero calls $0.30
calamaroweb: folds
45f5: folds
*** FLOP *** [6c Qh Qd]
鋝sadpooleks: bets $0.30
hero raises $0.30 to $0.60
鋝sadpooleks: calls $0.30
*** TURN *** [6c Qh Qd] [5h]
鋝sadpooleks: checks
hero checks
*** RIVER *** [6c Qh Qd 5h] [Ad]
鋝sadpooleks: bets $1
hero calls $1
*** SHOW DOWN ***
鋝sadpooleks: shows [Qs As] (a full house, Queens full of Aces)
hero mucks hand
鋝sadpooleks collected $3.76 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $3.95 | Rake $0.19
Board [6c Qh Qd 5h Ad]
Seat 2: 鋝sadpooleks showed [Qs As] and won ($3.76) with a full house,
Queens full of Aces
Seat 3: ihernand82 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: hero (button) mucked [6h 6s]
Seat 6: calamaroweb (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: 45f5 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: Chris.5X folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: fujiyoto folded before Flop (didn't bet) | W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 2 why do you check turn? Flop raise bigger. bet turn when check to. You
should have less than pot size bet left shove on river and get it in
regardless. You did not lose your whole stack here, meaning you did not
play it right.
preflop pot 0.75$
flop he bets 0.3$ you should raise to 1.2$ (pot 3$)
turn he check you bet 2$ (pot is 7$)
you will have around 4$ for a perfect sized shove on river.
On any street if he reraise you, you get it in right there. | r****r
发帖数: 1394 | 3 Thanks! generally i should bet turn and lose more on river.
i thought he may call flop with sth like 99,TT, or even AK on flop, which
are almost dead.
so i wanted him to bluff on turn or probably river.
but, if i hope him to bluff on turn or river, i should've played slow on
flop.
min raise flop blocks him of bluffing, probably.
so,可以这么说： flop play and turn play contradict, right?
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: why do you check turn? Flop raise bigger. bet turn when check to. You
: should have less than pot size bet left shove on river and get it in
: regardless. You did not lose your whole stack here, meaning you did not
: play it right.
: preflop pot 0.75$
: flop he bets 0.3$ you should raise to 1.2$ (pot 3$)
: turn he check you bet 2$ (pot is 7$)
: you will have around 4$ for a perfect sized shove on river.
: On any street if he reraise you, you get it in right there.
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 4 similar to one hand i posted the other day, my 22 vs. AQ on 2QQ flop.
pre-flop, same play.
flop, i donk bet out 2/3 pot:
1) could get value from a wide range of hands for at least this street,
since few ppl would expect me to have Qx or even 22 here AND bet like this
out of position (many ppl love to slow play or check raise here);
2) against a preflop raiser, if indeed he got a decent hand, or even Qx (AQ
or KQs), this donk bet may piss him off and start the action right away if
he's too straihgt forward;
3) there's another LP guy in the pot.
indeed as i expected, raiser immediately pops up to like 3x more (mini-raise
here is kind of bad with Qx, showing strength but not getting enough value,
could be used for other hands though sometimes), i then know he indeed got
a strong hand with Qx (AQ makes most sense).
no need to slow play, he could far easily put me on another Qx (or JJ/TT
alike) than sneaky 22 (ppl' tendency to put others on a hand he could beat),
i 3x back to commit myself and force him to shove. he does and turns over
AQ.
well, i'm way ahead but still need to sweat on turn and river, and am luckier
than yours.
【在 r****r 的大作中提到】
: what if he value bets KQ on river? any chance?
: PokerStars Game #50857027559: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10 USD) -
: 2010/10/09 19:08:35 ET
: Table 'Shedir IV' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
: Seat 2: 鋝sadpooleks ($12.42 in chips)
: Seat 3: ihernand82 ($10.42 in chips)
: Seat 4: hero ($7.60 in chips)
: Seat 6: calamaroweb ($13.16 in chips)
: Seat 7: 45f5 ($3.40 in chips)
: Seat 8: Chris.5X ($7.54 in chips)
| r****r
发帖数: 1394 | 5 Thank you both!
I thought that min raise flop can make him think that I had a missed pair
and reraise with Qx. but he didn't. I thought he would bet any Q on turn but
he didn't. guess we both played too cautiously and confused ourselves.
played another hand later. I got AA, raise to 3bb pre, sb called.
flop QQ3, he check, i bet 2/3 pot, he big raised.
I tanked for a while, thinking that he would not raise so big with trips or
boat (or maybe i was on tilt?). so i called. turn nth, he all in (i
generally play with 75-80 bb deep)
and i called and won. he had TT.
what about this one?
AQ
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: similar to one hand i posted the other day, my 22 vs. AQ on 2QQ flop.
: pre-flop, same play.
: flop, i donk bet out 2/3 pot:
: 1) could get value from a wide range of hands for at least this street,
: since few ppl would expect me to have Qx or even 22 here AND bet like this
: out of position (many ppl love to slow play or check raise here);
: 2) against a preflop raiser, if indeed he got a decent hand, or even Qx (AQ
: or KQs), this donk bet may piss him off and start the action right away if
: he's too straihgt forward;
: 3) there's another LP guy in the pot.
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 6 you two are not cautious, both are trying to slow play.
both hands explain one thing, at least at these stakes, ppl tend to
slow play monsters while act strong with medium hands. we need to reverse it
sometimes.
btw, the poker blueprint is a good book (although based on 6-max), the first
half is basic stuff, you can go ahead and read the 2nd half (covering this
paired situations), very helpful.
slow play is not a bad thing, but it has problems too:
1) miss value against medium hands;
2) more scary cards coming, could kill medium value;
3) you have to lay down on later streets sometimes, yes, have to, otherwise
our plan is not consistent.
like today a hand i play with someone, he 2x from LP, only i call with Qd9d
at BB.
FLOP: AdTd7s, i check, he bets a little over POT, which to me, looks like
trying to finish the game right here. he could have a weak Ax here but i
doubt, against only BB, he could have many other air hands or trash PP too.
so i can't let him go easily with my flush draw, i mini-check raise him (see
? what mini-raise means most of time? hehe). he calls, which is fine with my
plan.
TURN: 5d, i hit my gold mine. a check here would be a disaster with my
previous action. i play "straight forward" poker here, bet pot, and set the
stage for river shoving size (then he has to call). i'm happy with his
folding here too.
he tanks and calls.
RIVER: 2s, perfect card, i shove the rest and he calls with TT. holy, what
is he doing on the flop then?
but
or
【在 r****r 的大作中提到】
: Thank you both!
: I thought that min raise flop can make him think that I had a missed pair
: and reraise with Qx. but he didn't. I thought he would bet any Q on turn but
: he didn't. guess we both played too cautiously and confused ourselves.
: played another hand later. I got AA, raise to 3bb pre, sb called.
: flop QQ3, he check, i bet 2/3 pot, he big raised.
: I tanked for a while, thinking that he would not raise so big with trips or
: boat (or maybe i was on tilt?). so i called. turn nth, he all in (i
: generally play with 75-80 bb deep)
: and i called and won. he had TT.
| r****r
发帖数: 1394 | 7 very interesting hand. well played!
maybe he put u on Ax so no flush possible.
it
first
this
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: you two are not cautious, both are trying to slow play.
: both hands explain one thing, at least at these stakes, ppl tend to
: slow play monsters while act strong with medium hands. we need to reverse it
: sometimes.
: btw, the poker blueprint is a good book (although based on 6-max), the first
: half is basic stuff, you can go ahead and read the 2nd half (covering this
: paired situations), very helpful.
: slow play is not a bad thing, but it has problems too:
: 1) miss value against medium hands;
: 2) more scary cards coming, could kill medium value;
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 8 that's the sales package i try to sell to him, but not actually a perfect
one if we take a closer look.
(all in most likely or "normal" cases)
pre-flop: if i have a strong AJ+, i'd not let him 2x and have position over
me postflop.
flop: same thing, strong Ax on a flush draw flop, a check mini-raise is
weird. weak Ax is even more weird (do i want to get a fold or not?) Ax with
2 pair? with his TT, chances are not high at all, and x% times ppl will slow
play this again. AA or 77 set, rarely and slow play cases again.
turn: flush hits, how likely a weak Ax hand would do this? and one key
factor, Ad on the board, which kills a lot of suited ace cases (for pre-flop
and flop flush chasing cases).
so on the flop, he'd be happy to shove if i donk with my Ax.
【在 r****r 的大作中提到】
: very interesting hand. well played!
: maybe he put u on Ax so no flush possible.
:
: it
: first
: this
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 9 The miniraise pot size c bet with a draw is not a good play. more often you
will get 3 bet out of the pot on flop. If he is bluffing pot size, he will
check fold turn. If he indeed has a strong hand, you take a card with a call
and stack him when you do hit. This fish's flat flop is even worse. Snap
shove or big raise to commit to charge for draws and A top pair and small
set.
over
with
slow
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: that's the sales package i try to sell to him, but not actually a perfect
: one if we take a closer look.
: (all in most likely or "normal" cases)
: pre-flop: if i have a strong AJ+, i'd not let him 2x and have position over
: me postflop.
: flop: same thing, strong Ax on a flush draw flop, a check mini-raise is
: weird. weak Ax is even more weird (do i want to get a fold or not?) Ax with
: 2 pair? with his TT, chances are not high at all, and x% times ppl will slow
: play this again. AA or 77 set, rarely and slow play cases again.
: turn: flush hits, how likely a weak Ax hand would do this? and one key
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 10 well, i don't put him on a strong hand to 3-bet me either, from his 2x pre
and pot on flop, both are weak (i'm wrong though).
my mini-raise is a free-card play in general.
you
call
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: The miniraise pot size c bet with a draw is not a good play. more often you
: will get 3 bet out of the pot on flop. If he is bluffing pot size, he will
: check fold turn. If he indeed has a strong hand, you take a card with a call
: and stack him when you do hit. This fish's flat flop is even worse. Snap
: shove or big raise to commit to charge for draws and A top pair and small
: set.
:
: over
: with
: slow
| | | W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 11 Is that a leak from limit Holdem? ^_^
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: well, i don't put him on a strong hand to 3-bet me either, from his 2x pre
: and pot on flop, both are weak (i'm wrong though).
: my mini-raise is a free-card play in general.
:
: you
: call
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 12 no, it's a weapon we need to have, just when and how to use it, hehe. if he'
s indeed weak, i can easily get a free turn card or even river, lol, better
than being pushed around with even higher price.
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: Is that a leak from limit Holdem? ^_^
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 13 Honestly, most of the mini-raise mini-bet are not good moves. Every time i
see someone doing that, i put a fish note on him instantly...
Even the famous blocking bet is a serious leak vs good players.
But poker is poker. Even a leak sometimes can make you money. Some guy
mini-block bet turn and river with 73242 rainbow board with K7. I raised turn
and river. He called down. I have air. So i put a fish note on him and
another note "Value bet him with tptk or better vs his blocking bet". Next
time he will have to pay for his. Or shove river with a busted draw next time like Durr... "Want to block bet and call? Take that fish!" lol | f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 14 Honestly, most of the mini-raise mini-bet are not good moves. Every time i
see someone doing that, i put a fish note on him instantly... | W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 15 I used "most" and "every time" unconciously. But this somehow proved my
point exactly. This is always a bad move, but sometimes, you mistake can
make you $$. I am not contradicting myself at all, am I?
The biggest problem with minibet and miniraise is that you can not balance
this move unless you miniraise with that board with set too. Is miniraising
with a set a good move here? I would rather semi-bluff and raise with 2 pair
sets larger at this spot with a balanced range. Or call with some of these
with a good mix...
i
"
"
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: Honestly, most of the mini-raise mini-bet are not good moves. Every time i
: see someone doing that, i put a fish note on him instantly...
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 16 well, to me, "always" = fixed mindset = not an open strategy, hehe.
miniraising
pair
these
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: I used "most" and "every time" unconciously. But this somehow proved my
: point exactly. This is always a bad move, but sometimes, you mistake can
: make you $$. I am not contradicting myself at all, am I?
: The biggest problem with minibet and miniraise is that you can not balance
: this move unless you miniraise with that board with set too. Is miniraising
: with a set a good move here? I would rather semi-bluff and raise with 2 pair
: sets larger at this spot with a balanced range. Or call with some of these
: with a good mix...
:
: i
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 17 smallish blocking bet is a very exploitable play. It really only work on
fish or weak tight player who are clueless. Because you are simply telling
your opponents that you do not have a very strong hand, but would like see a
showdown. If you have a strong hand, you will never play like this because
the value lost over long term is much bigger. Any time when you tell your
opponents what you have in a game of incomplete information, you lose. Now
all we need to do is shove over his blocking bet with various depolarized
hand including those hand you normally will not over play. Anything that is
above his blocking bet range, TPTK, over pair or any weak 2 pair plus most
importantly some air. Now he is just a sitting duck waiting to get
slaughtered.
Miniraising with a draw is similar to small blocking bet . You are giving a
tell because you will not do this with a ultra strong hand like top 2 or set
on a wet board, and you open up the action again if your opponents does
have a strong hand. Samething as small bet to induce and shove over
with relatively deep stack, you are giving a tell with your nuts, you will
not get paid that way.
However, fish will pay you regardless of your play. So everytime when you get paid off by a fish, you just 1 step away from getting your leak fixed.
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: well, to me, "always" = fixed mindset = not an open strategy, hehe.
:
: miniraising
: pair
: these
| I**n
发帖数: 839 | 18 I think it all depends. poker is situational anyway.
I 'block bet' a few times on the weekends into regulars and they snap shoved
into my monster like half of times. lol
It's all about adapting I guess
telling
a
because
your
Now
is
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: smallish blocking bet is a very exploitable play. It really only work on
: fish or weak tight player who are clueless. Because you are simply telling
: your opponents that you do not have a very strong hand, but would like see a
: showdown. If you have a strong hand, you will never play like this because
: the value lost over long term is much bigger. Any time when you tell your
: opponents what you have in a game of incomplete information, you lose. Now
: all we need to do is shove over his blocking bet with various depolarized
: hand including those hand you normally will not over play. Anything that is
: above his blocking bet range, TPTK, over pair or any weak 2 pair plus most
: importantly some air. Now he is just a sitting duck waiting to get
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 19 Because they think you are a fish. They will put a note on you and this will
be the last time you get paid. As for yourself, you probably have lost more
value over long run instead when you play like this often or get drawn out
many other time.
What were we saying again? oh yeah.. not to be result oriented.
shoved
【在 I**n 的大作中提到】
: I think it all depends. poker is situational anyway.
: I 'block bet' a few times on the weekends into regulars and they snap shoved
: into my monster like half of times. lol
: It's all about adapting I guess
:
: telling
: a
: because
: your
: Now
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 20 sigh, apparently you missed the "situational" and "adapting" keywords again?
will
more
out
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: Because they think you are a fish. They will put a note on you and this will
: be the last time you get paid. As for yourself, you probably have lost more
: value over long run instead when you play like this often or get drawn out
: many other time.
: What were we saying again? oh yeah.. not to be result oriented.
:
: shoved
| | | W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 21 nothing is abosolute in poker obviously. when you 5 bet all in with QQ vs
someone opens 20% preflop, fold to 3 bet 10%, 4 bet 10%, you can still run
into KK or AA.
So yeah, you can point out situations where you got pushed all in when you
miniraise with a set on a wet board. My question is whether you do this
often -- miniraising with set on wet board? If you do, i think you really
need to look at the long term impact other than 1 or 2 times where you get
paid off. If you don't do this often only rarely, but with draw mostly, then
I think pushing all in from the regular is a good play even though this
time he runs into a set.
Not to be result oriented is easy to say than done. Otherwise there will be
no money to be made in poker. | f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 22 hehe, if you put this "nothing is abosolute in poker obviously" first
instead of "always" or "every time", then we'd have no arguments at all.
even folding AA preflop makes sense in 1% of times, for example, you're at a
FT and 6 left, where top 5 get paid equally for a ticket, when two even
stacks shove and call, it's a super easy fold for you.
then
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: nothing is abosolute in poker obviously. when you 5 bet all in with QQ vs
: someone opens 20% preflop, fold to 3 bet 10%, 4 bet 10%, you can still run
: into KK or AA.
: So yeah, you can point out situations where you got pushed all in when you
: miniraise with a set on a wet board. My question is whether you do this
: often -- miniraising with set on wet board? If you do, i think you really
: need to look at the long term impact other than 1 or 2 times where you get
: paid off. If you don't do this often only rarely, but with draw mostly, then
: I think pushing all in from the regular is a good play even though this
: time he runs into a set.
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 23 I don't think you get what I try to say.
a
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: hehe, if you put this "nothing is abosolute in poker obviously" first
: instead of "always" or "every time", then we'd have no arguments at all.
: even folding AA preflop makes sense in 1% of times, for example, you're at a
: FT and 6 left, where top 5 get paid equally for a ticket, when two even
: stacks shove and call, it's a super easy fold for you.
:
: then
| d*****0
发帖数: 1500 | |
|
