p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 1 online MTT. there were around 30 ppl left in the tourney and I had
about 50BB and was one of the chip leader( top 5 in chip stack). the blind
and ante are quite high.
A relative tight player open shoved in MP for about 15-16BB, everybody
else folded. I was at BB with 77.
should I call this shove from ICM point of view?
thanks
| p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 2 ICM 是神马玩意儿
blind
everybody
【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: online MTT. there were around 30 ppl left in the tourney and I had
: about 50BB and was one of the chip leader( top 5 in chip stack). the blind
: and ante are quite high.
:
: A relative tight player open shoved in MP for about 15-16BB, everybody
: else folded. I was at BB with 77.
: should I call this shove from ICM point of view?
: thanks
:
| s*******o
发帖数: 4896 | 3 有anti吗？大概多少
blind
everybody
【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: online MTT. there were around 30 ppl left in the tourney and I had
: about 50BB and was one of the chip leader( top 5 in chip stack). the blind
: and ante are quite high.
:
: A relative tight player open shoved in MP for about 15-16BB, everybody
: else folded. I was at BB with 77.
: should I call this shove from ICM point of view?
: thanks
:
| p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 4 有啊，想不起来多少了， 但是是标准的tourney 结构。
这是ftp 的 fifty-fifty(50$ buyin and 50K guarr) , 好像有1,300多人，payout
大多钱都在final table 呢。
【在 s*******o 的大作中提到】
: 有anti吗？大概多少
:
: blind
: everybody
| s*******o
发帖数: 4896 | 5 我觉得应该是一个fold，如果是10bb左右可以call
payout
【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: 有啊，想不起来多少了， 但是是标准的tourney 结构。
: 这是ftp 的 fifty-fifty(50$ buyin and 50K guarr) , 好像有1,300多人，payout
: 大多钱都在final table 呢。
| p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 6 我call le , 对方是AQ, 结果挂了。
【在 s*******o 的大作中提到】
: 我觉得应该是一个fold，如果是10bb左右可以call
:
: payout
| c*****t
发帖数: 817 | 7 15-16BB typically has M=8. Just considering chips, you need a pot odds of 7.
5 / (8 + 8 + 0.5) = 45.5%.
Without any extra information, we can use 1.1 ~ 1.2 as the default ICM chip
discount, which means that the pot odds you really need is about 45.5 * (1.1
~ 1.2) = 50 ~ 55%.
If he is a solid players, then his MP shove range is probably AJo+, A9s+,
and 66+. You barely got the pot odds to call. It is really a close decision.
Personally, I am leaning to fold. | h*******s
发帖数: 3932 | 8 cmis91 should be able to answer that..but from ICM point it can't be simple
math. need to check with software i guess. also need to know the payout
structure.
gut feeling is this is coin flip and dont call.
blind
everybody
【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: 我call le , 对方是AQ, 结果挂了。
| c*****t
发帖数: 817 | 9 Agree. Small pairs are good for shoving but bad for calling -- you are
either way behind or slightly ahead.
When I am a big stack, I tend to fold if I expect a call to be a coin flip.
Instead, I prefer to use my stack size for bully. When I am a small stack, I
dont mind coin flips since I need to gamble to keep a healthy stack size.
Otherwise as my stack dwindles I lose my fold equity. | s*******o
发帖数: 4896 | 10 in fact, it also depends on the types of villian. I don't think a tight
player will push cards not in top 10% range when they have 15-16bb.
I think when they got 15-20bb, they still have fold equity when they shove
against an open to steal some money. But when they open shove at these
stack size, the range of cards they shove will not be very wide.
.
I
【在 c*****t 的大作中提到】
: Agree. Small pairs are good for shoving but bad for calling -- you are
: either way behind or slightly ahead.
: When I am a big stack, I tend to fold if I expect a call to be a coin flip.
: Instead, I prefer to use my stack size for bully. When I am a small stack, I
: dont mind coin flips since I need to gamble to keep a healthy stack size.
: Otherwise as my stack dwindles I lose my fold equity.
| | | p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 11 鱼宝宝的确是MTT达人， 能解释一下什么是ICM chip discount 吗？这个1.1-1.2是
怎么算的？
我当时call 的原因主要觉得这个payout structure 太top heavy. 而且他
这么open shove 15 BB 不太可能是JJ+. 而且即使输了， 我还有35个BB, 还可以打
。那时好长一段都card dead. 这个77 是哪一段最好的牌了。 现在看来还是不应该
call.
谢了。
7.
chip
.1
decision.
【在 c*****t 的大作中提到】
: 15-16BB typically has M=8. Just considering chips, you need a pot odds of 7.
: 5 / (8 + 8 + 0.5) = 45.5%.
: Without any extra information, we can use 1.1 ~ 1.2 as the default ICM chip
: discount, which means that the pot odds you really need is about 45.5 * (1.1
: ~ 1.2) = 50 ~ 55%.
: If he is a solid players, then his MP shove range is probably AJo+, A9s+,
: and 66+. You barely got the pot odds to call. It is really a close decision.
: Personally, I am leaning to fold.
| c*****t
发帖数: 817 | 12 It basically quantifies the fact that the chip in your hand is more valuable
than the chip to win. For example, at the WSOP main event money/final_table
bubble, the value is about 1.4. The meaning is that if you go all in with
your whole stack, you need 1.4/(1+1.4) = 59% allin EV to be money EV neutral
.
The value varies with your effective stack size and pay structure. If you
are a big stack and are at the bubble of a satellite tournament, then the
value could be infinity against the chip leader, which means that you should
fold AA against his allin. The value could be close to 1 against a tiny
stack, which means it is ok to call the allin from a short stack to bust him
and end the game.
The value is always larger than 1. When you are far from the money or when
the pay jump is very flat, the value is typically 1.1. The implication is
that it is ok to go for a coin flip, provided that there are some dead money
or you are a slight favorite.
BTW, I memorized the value 1.1 and 1.4 from a book. I didnt bother to remember their algorithm -- we
wont be able to replay the computation process in a tourney anyway.
【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: 鱼宝宝的确是MTT达人， 能解释一下什么是ICM chip discount 吗？这个1.1-1.2是
: 怎么算的？
: 我当时call 的原因主要觉得这个payout structure 太top heavy. 而且他
: 这么open shove 15 BB 不太可能是JJ+. 而且即使输了， 我还有35个BB, 还可以打
: 。那时好长一段都card dead. 这个77 是哪一段最好的牌了。 现在看来还是不应该
: call.
: 谢了。
:
: 7.
: chip
| y********n
发帖数: 2063 | 13 icm 这时候不起作用，因为离decent money还有好远。
这时候你call tight player's 15bb allin, 还是slightly -ev。
只要你认为对手还是有66，55，44之类的东西，就没有什么大问题。
blind
everybody
【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: 鱼宝宝的确是MTT达人， 能解释一下什么是ICM chip discount 吗？这个1.1-1.2是
: 怎么算的？
: 我当时call 的原因主要觉得这个payout structure 太top heavy. 而且他
: 这么open shove 15 BB 不太可能是JJ+. 而且即使输了， 我还有35个BB, 还可以打
: 。那时好长一段都card dead. 这个77 是哪一段最好的牌了。 现在看来还是不应该
: call.
: 谢了。
:
: 7.
: chip
| d*****0
发帖数: 1500 | 14 30ppl left, and top 5 CL got 50bb, isnt it already in the money?
anyways, it is a clear fold to me. | p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 15 thanks a lot! Suggesting putting this to JHQ.
can you explain why the chip in hand is more valuable than chip to win?
I can understand the case in super SAT, but for top heavy payout structure
MTT, it seems the optitmal play justifies a lot of gambling.
valuable
table
neutral
should
him
【在 c*****t 的大作中提到】
: It basically quantifies the fact that the chip in your hand is more valuable
: than the chip to win. For example, at the WSOP main event money/final_table
: bubble, the value is about 1.4. The meaning is that if you go all in with
: your whole stack, you need 1.4/(1+1.4) = 59% allin EV to be money EV neutral
: .
: The value varies with your effective stack size and pay structure. If you
: are a big stack and are at the bubble of a satellite tournament, then the
: value could be infinity against the chip leader, which means that you should
: fold AA against his allin. The value could be close to 1 against a tiny
: stack, which means it is ok to call the allin from a short stack to bust him
| c****1
发帖数: 457 | 16 Easy fold for me. I never use those numbers generated from icm calculator
because those calculators have lots of assumptions(shove, fold situation)
which are not applicable in mtt. Those numbers are more important in sng.
But the concept of icm is still valuable in mtt. After winning that 15bb,
your effective stack most of times is the same as before and your winning
chance doesn't change much by increasing 15bb. But losing that 15bb, you are
down to 35bb, you will feel pressure on your stack. In that spot, your are
more likely losing than winning.also, it's not a turbo game. I Think you
will have a better than 77 hand to call short stack all in soon.
blind
everybody
【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: thanks a lot! Suggesting putting this to JHQ.
: can you explain why the chip in hand is more valuable than chip to win?
: I can understand the case in super SAT, but for top heavy payout structure
: MTT, it seems the optitmal play justifies a lot of gambling.
:
: valuable
: table
: neutral
: should
: him
| p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 17 thanks a lot!
so for that situation, what range hand of mine should I call a shove
for 15BB ? tt+/AQ+?
are
are
【在 c****1 的大作中提到】
: Easy fold for me. I never use those numbers generated from icm calculator
: because those calculators have lots of assumptions(shove, fold situation)
: which are not applicable in mtt. Those numbers are more important in sng.
: But the concept of icm is still valuable in mtt. After winning that 15bb,
: your effective stack most of times is the same as before and your winning
: chance doesn't change much by increasing 15bb. But losing that 15bb, you are
: down to 35bb, you will feel pressure on your stack. In that spot, your are
: more likely losing than winning.also, it's not a turbo game. I Think you
: will have a better than 77 hand to call short stack all in soon.
:
|
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