p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 1
Brandon Adams 还搞了种服务，牛。
https://www.expertinsight.com/tracy-quan
严格算，跟durrrr 还是同事，lol.
https://www.expertinsight.com/tom-dwan
" I don't sit around waiting for pocket aces -- I can show you when and
why 7-2o gets the job done just as well, or better."
I like this part though. | H****r
发帖数: 2801 | 2 “You need to be confident in your game. You need to be able to bluff and
lose a big pot, and make a big call and be wrong, and just move on to the
next hand and get over it. ”
Well said!!!
【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
:
: Brandon Adams 还搞了种服务，牛。
: https://www.expertinsight.com/tracy-quan
: 严格算，跟durrrr 还是同事，lol.
: https://www.expertinsight.com/tom-dwan
:
: " I don't sit around waiting for pocket aces -- I can show you when and
: why 7-2o gets the job done just as well, or better."
:
: I like this part though.
| p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 3 and you need afford to pay 6500$/h to pay the man. lol. kidding.
【在 H****r 的大作中提到】
: “You need to be confident in your game. You need to be able to bluff and
: lose a big pot, and make a big call and be wrong, and just move on to the
: next hand and get over it. ”
: Well said!!!
| c****1
发帖数: 457 | 4 “You need to be able to bluff and lose a big pot”
这个我做到了。大家帮我分析一下这手牌，欢迎细节
commerce 5/10,
preflop, UTG+2 (senior) limp, all folded to me at Btn, I pealed at my 3s7s
and raised to 30. Blinds folded and senior raised to 70. he had 1300 and I
had 1400, i called.
flop: Jh,5h,6h, he bet 100, I called
turn: 9s, he bet 200, I raised to 540. (I think his range is capped at AA KK
QQ and i can represent made flush, turned straight, or pocket 5s, 6s) He
tanked for 3 minutes and didnt stare at me but the board.
River is 7h, he checked, I shoved the remaining 600+ (hope he doesnt have
heart), He called immediately and shows KhKc
Any comment?
Let's demonstrate how to make the healthy discussion on the board. Any detailed comments are more than welcome, especially opposite opinions
【在 H****r 的大作中提到】
: “You need to be confident in your game. You need to be able to bluff and
: lose a big pot, and make a big call and be wrong, and just move on to the
: next hand and get over it. ”
: Well said!!!
| p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 5 First, I really like your altitude of being modest and being open to dicussion
.
When I play these middle stake live NL cash game(2-5 or 5-10NL), one thing that I
keep reminding myself is " study your opponent before you make any move".
For this hand, I think your preflop move and calling small reraise
is fine with this effective stack. But I do not really like the flop call. I prefer to
give up on the flop.
But once you called the flop, I think the turn move is OK. You could
get decent FE against the right opponent. But I would like to give up on the
river. He very likely called the with KK/AA with one heart in his hand.
just my 2 cents.
KK
【在 c****1 的大作中提到】
: “You need to be able to bluff and lose a big pot”
: 这个我做到了。大家帮我分析一下这手牌，欢迎细节
: commerce 5/10,
: preflop, UTG+2 (senior) limp, all folded to me at Btn, I pealed at my 3s7s
: and raised to 30. Blinds folded and senior raised to 70. he had 1300 and I
: had 1400, i called.
: flop: Jh,5h,6h, he bet 100, I called
: turn: 9s, he bet 200, I raised to 540. (I think his range is capped at AA KK
: QQ and i can represent made flush, turned straight, or pocket 5s, 6s) He
: tanked for 3 minutes and didnt stare at me but the board.
| p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 6 i would fold at flop most of the time, u only have 3 good odds (and you are
not even drawing to nuts)
KK
【在 c****1 的大作中提到】
: “You need to be able to bluff and lose a big pot”
: 这个我做到了。大家帮我分析一下这手牌，欢迎细节
: commerce 5/10,
: preflop, UTG+2 (senior) limp, all folded to me at Btn, I pealed at my 3s7s
: and raised to 30. Blinds folded and senior raised to 70. he had 1300 and I
: had 1400, i called.
: flop: Jh,5h,6h, he bet 100, I called
: turn: 9s, he bet 200, I raised to 540. (I think his range is capped at AA KK
: QQ and i can represent made flush, turned straight, or pocket 5s, 6s) He
: tanked for 3 minutes and didnt stare at me but the board.
| c*****t
发帖数: 817 | 7 我觉得你的line的合理性大概是50/50。这个牌如果我是你的对手的话，在这种
monotone的超级湿的board，我会干脆放弃range analysis -- 太多的牌可能hit这个
board了。我可以找到10000个理由来相信你，也可以找到10000个理由来call你。最后
决定基本上就是看read和history还有对钱的恐惧感。换句话说，如果是1/2 game你基
本上会被call。而你这次可能遇到了一个对钱不是太有恐惧感的富老爷爷。他把这个当
这1/2来打了。
另外我觉得这把牌其实turn上挺难打的。打太多的话，老爷爷有Ah怎么都会call。然后
到river上出没出花你都没有fold equity了。turn上打太少的话，又represent不了
baby flush。因为baby flush显然在turn上要raise big to charge nut flush draw。
简单说就是你如果min raise the turn，而我拿着Ah的话，我根本就不相信你。就等着
call你river的shove好了。想来想去我要是你的话，不如放弃这个bluff的机会。 | H****r
发帖数: 2801 | 8 cmis 这把打得颇有高手风范啊，最后river对手second nuts实在没办法了，其实最后
不出红桃还好...
那位算下对方有 Qh,Kh,Ah的几率多大？
KK
【在 c****1 的大作中提到】
: “You need to be able to bluff and lose a big pot”
: 这个我做到了。大家帮我分析一下这手牌，欢迎细节
: commerce 5/10,
: preflop, UTG+2 (senior) limp, all folded to me at Btn, I pealed at my 3s7s
: and raised to 30. Blinds folded and senior raised to 70. he had 1300 and I
: had 1400, i called.
: flop: Jh,5h,6h, he bet 100, I called
: turn: 9s, he bet 200, I raised to 540. (I think his range is capped at AA KK
: QQ and i can represent made flush, turned straight, or pocket 5s, 6s) He
: tanked for 3 minutes and didnt stare at me but the board.
| w***w
发帖数: 6301 | 9 这个bluff失败的原因中，但最关键的是对对手风格没掌握到火候。按对手风格，在这
种情况下，fold的概率有多大？你在对手眼中，bluff的概率有多大？另外，由于bluff
都是用大钱赢小钱。所以如果对手fold概率仅仅大于50%是不够的。大概要有70%-80%的
概率才能+EV.
你这次bluff可能影响桌上其他players对你的看法，对你下一次有好牌时赢大钱有帮助。
但是live的节奏慢。你下次拿到好牌的机会比online小很多。所以live里bluff应该更
慎重。
KK
【在 c****1 的大作中提到】
: “You need to be able to bluff and lose a big pot”
: 这个我做到了。大家帮我分析一下这手牌，欢迎细节
: commerce 5/10,
: preflop, UTG+2 (senior) limp, all folded to me at Btn, I pealed at my 3s7s
: and raised to 30. Blinds folded and senior raised to 70. he had 1300 and I
: had 1400, i called.
: flop: Jh,5h,6h, he bet 100, I called
: turn: 9s, he bet 200, I raised to 540. (I think his range is capped at AA KK
: QQ and i can represent made flush, turned straight, or pocket 5s, 6s) He
: tanked for 3 minutes and didnt stare at me but the board.
| y********n
发帖数: 2063 | 10 这手牌打得不好的。
RIVER上,POT 540*2+100*2+70*2+15=1435， 你只有1400-70-100-540 = 690，
EFFECTIVE STACK: 590.
RIVER BLUFF.他的牌是明牌（，因为它call了turn reraise),一个大对子加一张大红桃
。他用590刀去赢1435+590， RIVER他是不可能FOLD任何大红桃了。所以BLUFF 红桃
RIVER不明智。
RIVER 出其他牌，你能用ALL IN 赢下来的机会也很小。7， 8 ，ace,都算好牌，但即
使如此，出了7，8，ace,他call 你的机会都有50%。
所以river bluff allin 是巨大的-ev.
出现这种情况是因为你在turn上也可能犯了错。你在turn上的返加造成得锅太大。而且
给对手的odds 又太好。pot: 15+70*2+100*2+200+540 =1095, 对手只要call 540-200=
340。如果对手没有红桃的话，是有可能fold得。但once对手是任何的value hand,你也
是不能让他fold得。（我个人觉得你的turn有问题，但是说不清。你最好问问高手。）
flop上问题更大，你没有show down value,也没有improve得可能。建议还是reraise（
TO 235-280,因为你没有improve 的可能，我建议270左右。当然，这种pot,如果你有牛
牌 reraise to 235，也是一样的，bet,bet,就allin on the river了） or fold 比较
好。因为一旦你reraise,其实也是让对方明白这是一个allin pot. 他没有高对加红桃
，或者ACE红桃，就该退了。当然，对手如果有AH，在这种4BET POT中，几乎90%以上已经是NUT FLUSH.
preflop,个人觉得问题不是很大。
总结：这手牌在flop上没能控制住，造成turn很难处理。（应该算是大错）
turn上，cmis91的确拿1/2pot donk bet没脾气。个人觉得CMIS处理得还行。
RIVER上，大错特错。这种牌对手每CALL你一条街，RANGE 就发生了巨大的变化
（BLUFF 越来越少，VALUE HAND越来越多）。到了RIVER,RANGE就很窄了。
注：措辞有些过激，请CMIS原谅。
“You need to be able to bluff and lose a big pot”
这个我做到了。大家帮我分析一下这手牌，欢迎细节
commerce 5/10,
preflop, UTG+2 (senior) limp, all folded to me at Btn, I pealed at my 3s7s
and raised to 30. Blinds folded and senior raised to 70. he had 1300 and I
had 1400, i called.
flop: Jh,5h,6h, he bet 100, I called
turn: 9s, he bet 200, I raised to 540. (I think his range is capped at AA KK
QQ and i can represent made flush, turned straight, or pocket 5s, 6s) He
tanked for 3 minutes and didnt stare at me but the board.
River is 7h, he checked, I shoved the remaining 600+ (hope he doesnt have
heart), He called immediately and shows KhKc
Any comment?
Let's demonstrate how to make the healthy discussion on the board. Any
detailed comments are more than welcome, especially opposite opinions
KK
【在 c****1 的大作中提到】
: “You need to be able to bluff and lose a big pot”
: 这个我做到了。大家帮我分析一下这手牌，欢迎细节
: commerce 5/10,
: preflop, UTG+2 (senior) limp, all folded to me at Btn, I pealed at my 3s7s
: and raised to 30. Blinds folded and senior raised to 70. he had 1300 and I
: had 1400, i called.
: flop: Jh,5h,6h, he bet 100, I called
: turn: 9s, he bet 200, I raised to 540. (I think his range is capped at AA KK
: QQ and i can represent made flush, turned straight, or pocket 5s, 6s) He
: tanked for 3 minutes and didnt stare at me but the board.
| | | p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 11 have not seen you long long time, not even at MSN. how have you been doing
?
anyway, take care, buddy!
【在 y********n 的大作中提到】
: 这手牌打得不好的。
: RIVER上,POT 540*2+100*2+70*2+15=1435， 你只有1400-70-100-540 = 690，
: EFFECTIVE STACK: 590.
: RIVER BLUFF.他的牌是明牌（，因为它call了turn reraise),一个大对子加一张大红桃
: 。他用590刀去赢1435+590， RIVER他是不可能FOLD任何大红桃了。所以BLUFF 红桃
: RIVER不明智。
: RIVER 出其他牌，你能用ALL IN 赢下来的机会也很小。7， 8 ，ace,都算好牌，但即
: 使如此，出了7，8，ace,他call 你的机会都有50%。
: 所以river bluff allin 是巨大的-ev.
: 出现这种情况是因为你在turn上也可能犯了错。你在turn上的返加造成得锅太大。而且
| y********n
发帖数: 2063 | 12 还有这手牌挺特殊的。
130BB EFFECTIVE, 4BET PREFLOP
在FLOP上其实就能决定是否ALL IN 得。
所以FLOP上一个小的RE-RAISE,对方就知道你是否准备ALL IN 了
POT on the flop, without any action: 70+70+15=155
对方只下了100在flop上，是很难在river上形成allin 的。
但是如果你reraise成280，对方就知道你要干什么了。如果他call了,他就是有牌了。
【在 y********n 的大作中提到】
: 这手牌打得不好的。
: RIVER上,POT 540*2+100*2+70*2+15=1435， 你只有1400-70-100-540 = 690，
: EFFECTIVE STACK: 590.
: RIVER BLUFF.他的牌是明牌（，因为它call了turn reraise),一个大对子加一张大红桃
: 。他用590刀去赢1435+590， RIVER他是不可能FOLD任何大红桃了。所以BLUFF 红桃
: RIVER不明智。
: RIVER 出其他牌，你能用ALL IN 赢下来的机会也很小。7， 8 ，ace,都算好牌，但即
: 使如此，出了7，8，ace,他call 你的机会都有50%。
: 所以river bluff allin 是巨大的-ev.
: 出现这种情况是因为你在turn上也可能犯了错。你在turn上的返加造成得锅太大。而且
| y********n
发帖数: 2063 | 13 我在一个小公司上班,看看能不能攒一笔。因为打牌是计时工资，每天8小时，工资是定的。作生意万一搞好了，一次卖10000个产品，还是很不一样的。
大家也帮我注意一下美国的牛B产品，看看有没有适合中国（，就是在中国有销量），并且能仿制的。
doing
【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: have not seen you long long time, not even at MSN. how have you been doing
: ?
: anyway, take care, buddy!
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 14 天，这是谁??这难道是个穿越贴？
兄弟，想你啊！！！
昨天还在随机翻一些老贴子，感慨很多。
火速汇报最近这一年的各种情况！！！！
定的。作生意万一搞好了，一次卖10000个产品，还是很不一样的。
，并且能仿制的。
【在 y********n 的大作中提到】
: 我在一个小公司上班,看看能不能攒一笔。因为打牌是计时工资，每天8小时，工资是定的。作生意万一搞好了，一次卖10000个产品，还是很不一样的。
: 大家也帮我注意一下美国的牛B产品，看看有没有适合中国（，就是在中国有销量），并且能仿制的。
:
: doing
| p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 15 +1
老大根俺在Vegas见面时，也多次提起你。 有空常回来看看吧，不论你是否还在打
Poker, 这里都有你的朋友。
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: 天，这是谁??这难道是个穿越贴？
: 兄弟，想你啊！！！
: 昨天还在随机翻一些老贴子，感慨很多。
: 火速汇报最近这一年的各种情况！！！！
:
: 定的。作生意万一搞好了，一次卖10000个产品，还是很不一样的。
: ，并且能仿制的。
| y********n
发帖数: 2063 | 16 :)
老大是非常热心的，这个板块的超级斑竹加支持者。很可惜，都没有实际见过1面。有
空的时候看看你们的游记还是很兴奋的。尤其老大的文笔功夫好，文风诙谐。
我现在因为工作的原因，打牌时间肯定很少了。当然，打牌是我们的共同爱好。能够互
相用母语讨论牌谱，很有帮助阿。cmis91的sunday million win的final table就是超
级高手的风范,打得太aggressive, 太精彩了。
大家如果能同时update一下各自的情况，就更好了。
【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: +1
: 老大根俺在Vegas见面时，也多次提起你。 有空常回来看看吧，不论你是否还在打
: Poker, 这里都有你的朋友。
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 17 yjj 新年第一贴就火! 分析得很好啊~ 看得出水平比以前更高的了! 现在不再打牌了
吗? 太可惜了. | W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 18 你这里还有重要的一点没有说，就是你在桌上的image 是十么。
I like yjj's opinion of raising flop instead of raising turn. Let me first
say that your line is fine too sometimes depending on history. It could have a larger fold equity if the lines you choose for previous showdown hands consist of calling flop and raising turn with strong made hand. that is probably the few advantages from raising turn.
Raising flop is good. I concur YJJ's spot-on reasoning. I also think that
raising flop or raising turn narrow down villian's hand range almost the
same. Once he calls, he almost for sure has at least a big 4 card flush draw
, most likely a big pair as well. Honestly, without a super nitty image from
you, I will stop bluff right there. It is way too ambitious trying to bluff
off someone with a hand like this in a 3 bet pot with a not so deep stack.
This shows exactly why that it is better to raise flop, because it is
cheaper. It is always better to bluff when the cost is low expecially under
the situation where if he calls, you are unlikely to bluff him off anyway.
You can just shut down and be happy about it. after putting in a healthy
flop raise and gets called, i would just check behind turn, if I hit river
gut shot and no flush, i will put in a very large value over bet (or over shove raise if he bets) which he is most likely calling. You have no showdown value on the flop, I think raising the flop to get rid of a lot of weaker made hand is a +ev move by itself. He could even have AK with no flush draw.
Another good reason to raise the flop, I think you can rep a lot more strong
hand that have him beat. Call flop, raise turn, you mostly represent flush.
By raising flop, you can also represent set and 2 pair knowing that he most
likely call with over pair and flush draw with the raise. Is that correct?
When your hand is so polarized and if you don't have a good image, I think
they are more likely to call you down.
Then in the end, I guess everyone has mentioned, flush card is the worst (yes indeed worst) card to bluff here when his hand is faceup with a big flush card. You could probably gain a little more fold equity if it is not a flush card. Your turn raise made the stack size so awkward that he is rarely folding his made flush after he called turn. Actually, if you called flop, you would rather call turn too and overbet/raise river. you can again rep a lot of strong hand with or without the 4th flush card. Without flush card, you can overbet/raise to rep sets and 2 pair. Even if he calls, you could gain more ground for future thin values. With flush card, you could rep the nut flush too after calling 2 street. Of course with 4th flush card, he could also have a made nut flush. So you would need to be extra careful and have to gain some information from his physical tells and betting size to see whether he did have the nuts before making the move.
2c
KK
【在 c****1 的大作中提到】
: “You need to be able to bluff and lose a big pot”
: 这个我做到了。大家帮我分析一下这手牌，欢迎细节
: commerce 5/10,
: preflop, UTG+2 (senior) limp, all folded to me at Btn, I pealed at my 3s7s
: and raised to 30. Blinds folded and senior raised to 70. he had 1300 and I
: had 1400, i called.
: flop: Jh,5h,6h, he bet 100, I called
: turn: 9s, he bet 200, I raised to 540. (I think his range is capped at AA KK
: QQ and i can represent made flush, turned straight, or pocket 5s, 6s) He
: tanked for 3 minutes and didnt stare at me but the board.
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 19 哥，白天上班忙没空细说。
两眼泪汪汪啊！别的不说，祝愿你干啥啥来钱先！
【在 y********n 的大作中提到】
: :)
: 老大是非常热心的，这个板块的超级斑竹加支持者。很可惜，都没有实际见过1面。有
: 空的时候看看你们的游记还是很兴奋的。尤其老大的文笔功夫好，文风诙谐。
: 我现在因为工作的原因，打牌时间肯定很少了。当然，打牌是我们的共同爱好。能够互
: 相用母语讨论牌谱，很有帮助阿。cmis91的sunday million win的final table就是超
: 级高手的风范,打得太aggressive, 太精彩了。
: 大家如果能同时update一下各自的情况，就更好了。
| c****1
发帖数: 457 | 20 Thanks for all the replies and suggestions.
My image on the table is tricky. I only have one showdown (except preflop
all in with short stack) with flopped baby flush. Other than that, I check
raised turn once and got opponents to fold.
I don't incline to fold the flop. To justify the preflop call, we must be
able to win some pots in position with floating and bluffing with
appropriate board texture. Whether I can hit my 4 outs is not that important
. Whether i can bluff him off the pot and when is my biggest concern.
Now the question is that should I raise the flop or turn. My thought as in
play was that, most times, those seniors will call my flop raise with KK on
J56s board and see what I can do on turn. But raising the turn, I may
represent more strong hands(actually not that much, just one more straight).
But the thing is that I feel that in their minds I like to slow play the
flop.Raising a big pot seems strong to those senior players and looks like i
am commmitted to the pot. So my turn raising with bigger pot may have more
credibility and fold equity,psychologically not statistically)
River is a stupid move. I didnt think too much before shoving with the hope
he didnt have the heart. But I should have figured out from his 3 minutes
turn tank that he had Kh or Ah.
Overall, I feel raising the flop is cheaper and less risky.Raising the turn
has slightly more fold equity if opponents did not have Ah or Kh. Right now
I feel raising the flop is a better choice.
have a larger fold equity if the lines you choose for previous showdown
hands consist of calling flop and raising turn with strong made hand. that
is probably the few advantages from raising turn.
draw
from
bluff
.
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: 你这里还有重要的一点没有说，就是你在桌上的image 是十么。
: I like yjj's opinion of raising flop instead of raising turn. Let me first
: say that your line is fine too sometimes depending on history. It could have a larger fold equity if the lines you choose for previous showdown hands consist of calling flop and raising turn with strong made hand. that is probably the few advantages from raising turn.
: Raising flop is good. I concur YJJ's spot-on reasoning. I also think that
: raising flop or raising turn narrow down villian's hand range almost the
: same. Once he calls, he almost for sure has at least a big 4 card flush draw
: , most likely a big pair as well. Honestly, without a super nitty image from
: you, I will stop bluff right there. It is way too ambitious trying to bluff
: off someone with a hand like this in a 3 bet pot with a not so deep stack.
: This shows exactly why that it is better to raise flop, because it is
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