p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 1 哪怕是打的像我这么烂的,只要在low level grind grind, 一年如果每天都坚持花几个
小时, 磨个几万美金还是有希望的. 你要想在围棋里面一年能收入几万美金,职业初段
都做不到估计. 相比之下,扑克的投入产出实在是太丰厚了 | p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 2 看棋魂突然有感而发,砖头和烂番茄都退回!
【在 p*******p 的大作中提到】
: 哪怕是打的像我这么烂的,只要在low level grind grind, 一年如果每天都坚持花几个
: 小时, 磨个几万美金还是有希望的. 你要想在围棋里面一年能收入几万美金,职业初段
: 都做不到估计. 相比之下,扑克的投入产出实在是太丰厚了
| d*******e
发帖数: 1649 | 3 进了棋协是有工资的吧
【在 p*******p 的大作中提到】
: 哪怕是打的像我这么烂的,只要在low level grind grind, 一年如果每天都坚持花几个
: 小时, 磨个几万美金还是有希望的. 你要想在围棋里面一年能收入几万美金,职业初段
: 都做不到估计. 相比之下,扑克的投入产出实在是太丰厚了
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | | p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 5 初段没啥名气的话,也没太多收入的. 但是成为一个职业初段,难度是不可想象的.说句
难听的,这个板上所有人里面估计都未必能出一个. 但是扑克是个人就可以打,而且就像
大牛fcf说的,只要智力在70以上,用点心思,可以beat NL200的
【在 d*******e 的大作中提到】
: 进了棋协是有工资的吧
| p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 6 说谎话的人以后所有allin都会被bad beat
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: 那是你太厉害了， 我们都是输几万$$
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 7 罪过罪过...
那我就说句大实话. 其实poker 的门槛真是很低很低.. 稍微有点头脑的人都可以稳定
赢钱,而且可以赢不少. 究其原因,因为打poker 主要有两部分人组成:
1) 消遣的, 有没有钱都是为了entertainment, 他们基本是鱼,送钱来的, 这种鱼各个
级别都有.
2) 要来赚钱为生的. 这些人大部分都不是super smart 或capable 的 , 只是因为
poker 这个游戏太简单, 他们稍微会打一点可以靠抓 1) 里的鱼还是能混得不错. 为十
么我说这部分人大都不是super smart 或capable? 因为毕竟打牌在别人眼里还是赌博
, 是不被主流社会所接受的.如果他们能找到一份不错(equally paid or slightly
less) 的工作,大可不必要靠此为生, 而且打牌做职业还是很辛苦的一件事, swing 也
是不可避免的.
所以一部分我认为exceptionally intelligent 的人, 比如说: FCF. 很容易就可以专
业打牌挣到很多钱. 毕竟你面对的大部分对手 1) 2) 要不就是来送钱的,要不就是些根本
不是精英, 智商一般的so called regulars..
【在 p*******p 的大作中提到】
: 说谎话的人以后所有allin都会被bad beat
| p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 8 是啊,如果主流认同了, 大力投入培养职业选手,那时候的扑克估计会.....,哈哈,哈哈
所以大家还是要珍惜现在的好时光
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: 罪过罪过...
: 那我就说句大实话. 其实poker 的门槛真是很低很低.. 稍微有点头脑的人都可以稳定
: 赢钱,而且可以赢不少. 究其原因,因为打poker 主要有两部分人组成:
: 1) 消遣的, 有没有钱都是为了entertainment, 他们基本是鱼,送钱来的, 这种鱼各个
: 级别都有.
: 2) 要来赚钱为生的. 这些人大部分都不是super smart 或capable 的 , 只是因为
: poker 这个游戏太简单, 他们稍微会打一点可以靠抓 1) 里的鱼还是能混得不错. 为十
: 么我说这部分人大都不是super smart 或capable? 因为毕竟打牌在别人眼里还是赌博
: , 是不被主流社会所接受的.如果他们能找到一份不错(equally paid or slightly
: less) 的工作,大可不必要靠此为生, 而且打牌做职业还是很辛苦的一件事, swing 也
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 9 如果职业打牌能受到医生和律师一样的社会地位. 现在大部分pro ,都要破产了. 那些
on-line small stake 和那些live game up to 2-5$ 的ginder for a living 可能都要回到
麦当劳打工了.
我现在网上打牌都不敢让我爸知道,怕气到他老人家.. 这打牌的社会地位可想而知...
【在 p*******p 的大作中提到】
: 是啊,如果主流认同了, 大力投入培养职业选手,那时候的扑克估计会.....,哈哈,哈哈
: 所以大家还是要珍惜现在的好时光
| h*******s
发帖数: 3932 | 10 niu!
【在 p*******p 的大作中提到】
: 哪怕是打的像我这么烂的,只要在low level grind grind, 一年如果每天都坚持花几个
: 小时, 磨个几万美金还是有希望的. 你要想在围棋里面一年能收入几万美金,职业初段
: 都做不到估计. 相比之下,扑克的投入产出实在是太丰厚了
| | | f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 11 一年如果每天都坚持花几个小时, 磨个几万美金还是有希望的
if you can make this, you're already WAY above the avg. level, if your
definition of 几 is normal, i.e., 3-5. you can pretty much call yourself a
pro, who can make a basic living solely from poker. and you're definitely in
the top 5% of all players.
88% of players are long-term losers!
remember, the BEST small stake players (they all played 500K+ hands) in 2009
(up to 200NL) made: | W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 12 你这个BB 是big blind 还是Big bet?
in
2009
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: 一年如果每天都坚持花几个小时, 磨个几万美金还是有希望的
: if you can make this, you're already WAY above the avg. level, if your
: definition of 几 is normal, i.e., 3-5. you can pretty much call yourself a
: pro, who can make a basic living solely from poker. and you're definitely in
: the top 5% of all players.
: 88% of players are long-term losers!
: remember, the BEST small stake players (they all played 500K+ hands) in 2009
: (up to 200NL) made:
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 13 big blind, google "the BEST small stake players 2009" and find the article
from pokertableratings.com (sorry, blocked here at work, only cached version
for me)
let me guess how you feel, "aha, i'm beating that number right now...", lol.
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: 你这个BB 是big blind 还是Big bet?
:
: in
: 2009
| p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 14 说明绝大部分人是没这个耐心grind的, 但是就事论事,poker赚钱比起其他棋牌类容易
太多了,你去玩围棋,桥牌,国际象棋,想赚同样数目要难很多
version
lol.
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: big blind, google "the BEST small stake players 2009" and find the article
: from pokertableratings.com (sorry, blocked here at work, only cached version
: for me)
: let me guess how you feel, "aha, i'm beating that number right now...", lol.
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 15 我的feeling 如下， （不过说了有些伤人品，罪过罪过， 希望今天不要被bad beat
太多）：
way above 没啥稀奇，我觉得我在NL100就是way above average, 我cash 才打了9个月
，和一群能力和智力都一般的人群打牌，要above average 很难吗？
version
lol.
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: big blind, google "the BEST small stake players 2009" and find the article
: from pokertableratings.com (sorry, blocked here at work, only cached version
: for me)
: let me guess how you feel, "aha, i'm beating that number right now...", lol.
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 16 only a tiny % of players try to make $ in 你去玩围棋,桥牌,国际象棋 bah? and
skills dominate there, i can't beat a small pro there even he's drunk, lol.
【在 p*******p 的大作中提到】
: 说明绝大部分人是没这个耐心grind的, 但是就事论事,poker赚钱比起其他棋牌类容易
: 太多了,你去玩围棋,桥牌,国际象棋,想赚同样数目要难很多
:
: version
: lol.
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 17 all about volume, when you reach 500K+ hands and keep this rate, we'll
surely see your name there.
rush poker is a good thing in this aspect, otherwise ppl have to play 10
tables alike and with robotic play (less profitable/hand).
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: 我的feeling 如下， （不过说了有些伤人品，罪过罪过， 希望今天不要被bad beat
: 太多）：
: way above 没啥稀奇，我觉得我在NL100就是way above average, 我cash 才打了9个月
: ，和一群能力和智力都一般的人群打牌，要above average 很难吗？
:
: version
: lol.
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 18 volumn is volumn. Win rate is win rate.
If you are saying that my win rate has not been tested by big volumn, I can'
t say it is not true ( I am >300k hand for the year now even though it cross
through stakes from NL10 to NL100). But if you say they are better player
because they can pull off 500k hand a year, I can't agree.
But i do agree that 10 tabling is a special skill, which is not 100% poker
skill. But these people are top in the business. I never denied that there are smart people in small stake making a living. however I just want to point out a fact that the gereral population are full of average Joes who would be working in Wendy's if it is not for poker. One day, if we can say that "if it is not for poker, some people would be lawyers and doctors", you can trust me on that lots of the current poker player grinding for living will be back to where they belong.
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: all about volume, when you reach 500K+ hands and keep this rate, we'll
: surely see your name there.
: rush poker is a good thing in this aspect, otherwise ppl have to play 10
: tables alike and with robotic play (less profitable/hand).
| p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 19 嗯,其他比赛都正规化,完全的职业化,所以普通人根本没法生存
and
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: only a tiny % of players try to make $ in 你去玩围棋,桥牌,国际象棋 bah? and
: skills dominate there, i can't beat a small pro there even he's drunk, lol.
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 20 hehe, no, you got me wrong.
what i meant was if the BEST players at these stakes can "only" make 3-4BB/
100 over large number of hands in a year, there got to be a reason. and
another interesting thing from the article is some of them got beaten hard
when they tried to move up just one level, like from 100NL to 200NL.
for FTP, my estimate, the active pool of players at these levels are about
1000. rush at any point of time (~200 unique players), and about 30 regular
tables. surely there're some fish but quite some of players are not.
can'
cross
player
are smart people in small stake making a living. however I just want to
point out a fact that the gereral population are full of average Joes who
would be working in Wendy's if it is not for poker. One day, if we can say
that "if it is not for poker, some people would be lawyers and doctors", you
can trust me on that lots of the current poker player grinding for living
will be back to where they belong.
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: volumn is volumn. Win rate is win rate.
: If you are saying that my win rate has not been tested by big volumn, I can'
: t say it is not true ( I am >300k hand for the year now even though it cross
: through stakes from NL10 to NL100). But if you say they are better player
: because they can pull off 500k hand a year, I can't agree.
: But i do agree that 10 tabling is a special skill, which is not 100% poker
: skill. But these people are top in the business. I never denied that there are smart people in small stake making a living. however I just want to point out a fact that the gereral population are full of average Joes who would be working in Wendy's if it is not for poker. One day, if we can say that "if it is not for poker, some people would be lawyers and doctors", you can trust me on that lots of the current poker player grinding for living will be back to where they belong.
| | | W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 21 This is exactly my point. Other than the fish that just come to donating the
$$, these "regulars" are not that intelligent or capable as a human being
in general. The top tier smart people are not going to grind NL100 or NL
200 for a living.
for FTP, my estimate, the active pool of players at these levels are about
1000. rush at any point of time (~200 unique players), and about 30 regular
tables. surely there're some fish but quite some of players are not.
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: hehe, no, you got me wrong.
: what i meant was if the BEST players at these stakes can "only" make 3-4BB/
: 100 over large number of hands in a year, there got to be a reason. and
: another interesting thing from the article is some of them got beaten hard
: when they tried to move up just one level, like from 100NL to 200NL.
: for FTP, my estimate, the active pool of players at these levels are about
: 1000. rush at any point of time (~200 unique players), and about 30 regular
: tables. surely there're some fish but quite some of players are not.
:
: can'
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 22 hehe, i'd be conservative on this, this falls in the 75% of players hole.
the
regular
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: This is exactly my point. Other than the fish that just come to donating the
: $$, these "regulars" are not that intelligent or capable as a human being
: in general. The top tier smart people are not going to grind NL100 or NL
: 200 for a living.
:
: for FTP, my estimate, the active pool of players at these levels are about
: 1000. rush at any point of time (~200 unique players), and about 30 regular
: tables. surely there're some fish but quite some of players are not.
| c******n
发帖数: 15 | 23 fryking 说的很在理啊，这些最好的玩家在这个limit打了这么久，也“只有”这个
winrate足以说明打这个game的不易。
online poker打cash这么成功的，中国只有一个fcf（不知道还能不能说是中国...）。
他赢的轻松不代表是个人就可以。
online poker,无论什么winrate,先挣够$100k再说easy game.
regular
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: hehe, no, you got me wrong.
: what i meant was if the BEST players at these stakes can "only" make 3-4BB/
: 100 over large number of hands in a year, there got to be a reason. and
: another interesting thing from the article is some of them got beaten hard
: when they tried to move up just one level, like from 100NL to 200NL.
: for FTP, my estimate, the active pool of players at these levels are about
: 1000. rush at any point of time (~200 unique players), and about 30 regular
: tables. surely there're some fish but quite some of players are not.
:
: can'
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 24 老大，你coaching 效益怎样？ 好赚吗？
【在 c******n 的大作中提到】
: fryking 说的很在理啊，这些最好的玩家在这个limit打了这么久，也“只有”这个
: winrate足以说明打这个game的不易。
: online poker打cash这么成功的，中国只有一个fcf（不知道还能不能说是中国...）。
: 他赢的轻松不代表是个人就可以。
: online poker,无论什么winrate,先挣够$100k再说easy game.
:
: regular
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 25 你们都没听懂我的意思。
就拿fcf 来说。
fcf 是聪明人，但他肯定不是中国最聪明的， 假设说他是90%above average 聪明，我
觉得很有面子吧？ 可是他在poker 里确是唯一一个。 为十么呢? 因为其他10% 的聪
明人大部分不会来打牌为生.. 用统计的话来说, poker players 这个sub-population
里很少有top 10% of the smart people in the general population. 所以fcf 才会
成为唯一...如果那些聪明人都跑来打牌, 比如说如果达牌的社会地位提高了,那很多现
在职业打牌的人都的改行,因为水平会水涨船高.. 换句话说,现在大部分打牌的还是智资平平,聪明人都来了,他们就肯定不行了. 这和其社会地位有关.. 这话会惹闹很多打牌为生的人, 但我觉得是事实..
【在 c******n 的大作中提到】
: fryking 说的很在理啊，这些最好的玩家在这个limit打了这么久，也“只有”这个
: winrate足以说明打这个game的不易。
: online poker打cash这么成功的，中国只有一个fcf（不知道还能不能说是中国...）。
: 他赢的轻松不代表是个人就可以。
: online poker,无论什么winrate,先挣够$100k再说easy game.
:
: regular
| p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 26
这也可能说明,poker的所谓技术最多也就只能把一个player的edge提高到"只有"这个
winrate的程度.
没人否认fcf打的好,也没人说和他可以比较,不知道这个论点何来的
真有人打到100k,也会有人跳出来说打够1M再说的,这种话有啥意义
我无意贬低poker,但是目前就我各人感受,在poker里面赚同样的钱(或许赚点糊口的小
钱,大钱也没赚过,不评论), 远比其他职业棋牌容易. 我各人玩poker,总共花的时间(玩
牌看书)一起估计也就几百个小时, 目前也赚了10k左右,可能不起眼,不过要是这几百个
小时我花在围棋啥上面,我连一毛钱也赚不到. 我相信wind mm也差不多吧? 呵呵
【在 c******n 的大作中提到】
: fryking 说的很在理啊，这些最好的玩家在这个limit打了这么久，也“只有”这个
: winrate足以说明打这个game的不易。
: online poker打cash这么成功的，中国只有一个fcf（不知道还能不能说是中国...）。
: 他赢的轻松不代表是个人就可以。
: online poker,无论什么winrate,先挣够$100k再说easy game.
:
: regular
| p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 27 其实这里用聪明或者smart也要小心,怎么定义聪明smart? 很多围棋打牌好的人,读书的
时候成绩很差, 当然你可以说读书不代表聪明,那凭啥打牌下棋好就代表一个人聪明呢?
population
智资平平,和其的社会地位有关.. 这话会惹闹很多打牌为生的人, 但我觉得是事实..
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: 你们都没听懂我的意思。
: 就拿fcf 来说。
: fcf 是聪明人，但他肯定不是中国最聪明的， 假设说他是90%above average 聪明，我
: 觉得很有面子吧？ 可是他在poker 里确是唯一一个。 为十么呢? 因为其他10% 的聪
: 明人大部分不会来打牌为生.. 用统计的话来说, poker players 这个sub-population
: 里很少有top 10% of the smart people in the general population. 所以fcf 才会
: 成为唯一...如果那些聪明人都跑来打牌, 比如说如果达牌的社会地位提高了,那很多现
: 在职业打牌的人都的改行,因为水平会水涨船高.. 换句话说,现在大部分打牌的还是智资平平,聪明人都来了,他们就肯定不行了. 这和其社会地位有关.. 这话会惹闹很多打牌为生的人, 但我觉得是事实..
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 28 我只是泛指一个人的能力.. 说聪明确有误导, 我说的聪明绝对不是读书好, 但读书不好的除非自己一定不愿意学, 肯定算不上聪明
我一直相信是金子总会发光. 能力强的人做社么都会成功..
呢?
【在 p*******p 的大作中提到】
: 其实这里用聪明或者smart也要小心,怎么定义聪明smart? 很多围棋打牌好的人,读书的
: 时候成绩很差, 当然你可以说读书不代表聪明,那凭啥打牌下棋好就代表一个人聪明呢?
:
: population
: 智资平平,和其的社会地位有关.. 这话会惹闹很多打牌为生的人, 但我觉得是事实..
| c******n
发帖数: 15 | 29 fcf显然不止90%好不好，没有任何人是最聪明的。不能因为有一个很nb的fcf就说poker
比别的行业容易。每个行业都是市场决定的，如果说2006这个行业比其他行业容易我同
意，但是2010已经不是了。还有很多行业比poker容易的多。我认识几个搞it的，
每年收入轻松上$100k,我觉得他们挺笨的，还有更笨的能bla的，收入能到$200k的。其
他还有很多行业更容易。
但是我真不认识几个打牌的可以稳定$100k。除了nanonoko和GUIGUI_88那样的，我看到
大部分pro也是上上下下。这个行业是公平的，聪明和最努力的人可以拿最多的钱。所
有pro gamer都是这样吧，winner比其他行业的比率都小。
你去查查现在internet poker pro的背景，难道他们不是最聪明的一拨人吗？
population
智资平平,聪明人都来了,他们就肯定不行了. 这和其社会地位有关.. 这话会惹闹很多
打牌为生的人, 但我觉得是事实..
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: 你们都没听懂我的意思。
: 就拿fcf 来说。
: fcf 是聪明人，但他肯定不是中国最聪明的， 假设说他是90%above average 聪明，我
: 觉得很有面子吧？ 可是他在poker 里确是唯一一个。 为十么呢? 因为其他10% 的聪
: 明人大部分不会来打牌为生.. 用统计的话来说, poker players 这个sub-population
: 里很少有top 10% of the smart people in the general population. 所以fcf 才会
: 成为唯一...如果那些聪明人都跑来打牌, 比如说如果达牌的社会地位提高了,那很多现
: 在职业打牌的人都的改行,因为水平会水涨船高.. 换句话说,现在大部分打牌的还是智资平平,聪明人都来了,他们就肯定不行了. 这和其社会地位有关.. 这话会惹闹很多打牌为生的人, 但我觉得是事实..
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 30 搞IT 确实不需要啥education or intelligence. 其实"搞IT, 高中毕业生就行了".. 我
爸就是搞IT的.. 他说的原话.. lol...有点像2006 的poker 是不是? fcf 不是说"NL200 稳定赢家只要有高中毕业生得智商就行了?" 其实我觉得FCF 这话说得不过分..
等大家都发觉这好赚钱, 能力强的都来了就不容易了, 智质平平的就要被淘汰了, 那时就是现在的稳定赢家也有很多要破产改行..
poker
【在 c******n 的大作中提到】
: fcf显然不止90%好不好，没有任何人是最聪明的。不能因为有一个很nb的fcf就说poker
: 比别的行业容易。每个行业都是市场决定的，如果说2006这个行业比其他行业容易我同
: 意，但是2010已经不是了。还有很多行业比poker容易的多。我认识几个搞it的，
: 每年收入轻松上$100k,我觉得他们挺笨的，还有更笨的能bla的，收入能到$200k的。其
: 他还有很多行业更容易。
: 但是我真不认识几个打牌的可以稳定$100k。除了nanonoko和GUIGUI_88那样的，我看到
: 大部分pro也是上上下下。这个行业是公平的，聪明和最努力的人可以拿最多的钱。所
: 有pro gamer都是这样吧，winner比其他行业的比率都小。
: 你去查查现在internet poker pro的背景，难道他们不是最聪明的一拨人吗？
:
| | | f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 31 几点杂感。
除了高不可攀的如david chiu, johnny chan等人，和网络无法考证的中国玩家，fcf的
确是俺孤漏寡闻知道的一个另类。
不知道别人，俺耗了3年，只能说属于很平庸的，还在1/2NL, 50NL，micro stake
tournament这样的低级别grind，虽然论战绩，一年下来有个一万，还能的确比那75%的
强。看怎么定义聪明和努力了，但俺觉得总体不行。
看了cardplayer上起码有100个高手的经历，俺以前归纳过，3年似乎真是个坎，3年没
咋的的(不管什么原因)，再给3年也白搭。
经济差，扑克也受很大影响，UIGEA打击也很大，熬到现在的玩家，俺不敢说还有多少
真是fish, donk，长期送钱的角色，谁对谁真有多大的edge。
咱可能打了几手牌，觉得某个玩家很鱼，其实很可能只是盲人摸象而已。俺现在给谁
记笔记，都争取客观一些，而且如果一个玩家有一阵不见了，最新的动态俺也争取及
时更新，大家都在进步。PLO只所以被炒作要流行(其实也没咋的)，其实的确是因为
NLHE这些年给人吃得很透。
很多pros自己也承认，一年下来其实主要是靠bonus和rakeback，除了少数大名鼎鼎的
，多数pros其实挣的远没有那么多。cardplayer以前一个法国籍pro说过，自己打了20
年high stake，从来没有拥有过1M，这期又有他的专访，很诚实的说他自己最近差点打
电话让staker取消他的deal，最后之不过借了1万块翻本.....光鲜的背后其实很不堪的
，他对网络上谁谁$50, $100起家很不以为然，说如今的这些东西很多其实是BS。
poker
【在 c******n 的大作中提到】
: fcf显然不止90%好不好，没有任何人是最聪明的。不能因为有一个很nb的fcf就说poker
: 比别的行业容易。每个行业都是市场决定的，如果说2006这个行业比其他行业容易我同
: 意，但是2010已经不是了。还有很多行业比poker容易的多。我认识几个搞it的，
: 每年收入轻松上$100k,我觉得他们挺笨的，还有更笨的能bla的，收入能到$200k的。其
: 他还有很多行业更容易。
: 但是我真不认识几个打牌的可以稳定$100k。除了nanonoko和GUIGUI_88那样的，我看到
: 大部分pro也是上上下下。这个行业是公平的，聪明和最努力的人可以拿最多的钱。所
: 有pro gamer都是这样吧，winner比其他行业的比率都小。
: 你去查查现在internet poker pro的背景，难道他们不是最聪明的一拨人吗？
:
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 32 随便说两句， fryking 您别见怪.
我觉得你有一些leak 根深蒂固，是以前打live 1$ /2$ 养成的。 这live 1$/2$ 真是
害人的东西， 打那玩意永远也没法更进一步， 除非你有透过现象看本质的特殊才能。。2+2 上有一个low stake live 的forum, 里面的帖根本不能看， 问的问题都是明显的leak. 这还是live 1$/2$ player 里上2+2 的..我晕
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: 几点杂感。
: 除了高不可攀的如david chiu, johnny chan等人，和网络无法考证的中国玩家，fcf的
: 确是俺孤漏寡闻知道的一个另类。
: 不知道别人，俺耗了3年，只能说属于很平庸的，还在1/2NL, 50NL，micro stake
: tournament这样的低级别grind，虽然论战绩，一年下来有个一万，还能的确比那75%的
: 强。看怎么定义聪明和努力了，但俺觉得总体不行。
: 看了cardplayer上起码有100个高手的经历，俺以前归纳过，3年似乎真是个坎，3年没
: 咋的的(不管什么原因)，再给3年也白搭。
: 经济差，扑克也受很大影响，UIGEA打击也很大，熬到现在的玩家，俺不敢说还有多少
: 真是fish, donk，长期送钱的角色，谁对谁真有多大的edge。
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 33 别说1/2NL，俺的真正leak在于从3/6L打起来的，呵呵。
至于1/2NL害人不，俺倒不这么认为，哪个成功的玩家都是一级级的玩上去的，$1/2是
必经之路，只能说成功和失败在于悟性，学习快慢差异，悟性差的比如俺，就很难爬上
去。
赌性不够也是俺的一个要害，缺少go big or go broke的精神，也是the poker
blueprint里面的一个要点，过于在乎一点点小钱的输赢(这点钱还不够俺闺女的托儿费
)。而不是不管在哪一级，哪个比赛，必须大胜的那种信念。此外，光有go big的精神
也是不够的，必须有吃一堑长三智的消化能力，而不是缓慢的循环，悟一点点，重复犯
28回错。
。。2+2 上有一个low stake live 的forum, 里面的帖根本不能看， 问的问题都是明
显的leak. 这还是live 1$/2$ player 里上2+2 的..我晕
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: 随便说两句， fryking 您别见怪.
: 我觉得你有一些leak 根深蒂固，是以前打live 1$ /2$ 养成的。 这live 1$/2$ 真是
: 害人的东西， 打那玩意永远也没法更进一步， 除非你有透过现象看本质的特殊才能。。2+2 上有一个low stake live 的forum, 里面的帖根本不能看， 问的问题都是明显的leak. 这还是live 1$/2$ player 里上2+2 的..我晕
| B*********s
发帖数: 4158 | 34 可以拼数量。。。打出个supernova elite就值100k一年
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: 别说1/2NL，俺的真正leak在于从3/6L打起来的，呵呵。
: 至于1/2NL害人不，俺倒不这么认为，哪个成功的玩家都是一级级的玩上去的，$1/2是
: 必经之路，只能说成功和失败在于悟性，学习快慢差异，悟性差的比如俺，就很难爬上
: 去。
: 赌性不够也是俺的一个要害，缺少go big or go broke的精神，也是the poker
: blueprint里面的一个要点，过于在乎一点点小钱的输赢(这点钱还不够俺闺女的托儿费
: )。而不是不管在哪一级，哪个比赛，必须大胜的那种信念。此外，光有go big的精神
: 也是不够的，必须有吃一堑长三智的消化能力，而不是缓慢的循环，悟一点点，重复犯
: 28回错。
:
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 35 SNE去年全球不过不到300人，还是在比以前大幅度提高的基础上。
看前面有个贴的那个医院主任的打法，12桌100NL，5，6小时每天，为了$100K太艰难了
。很多人拿了SNE体验过了一把以后，都没有继续保持的愿望了。
Bertrand "ElkY" Grospellier有一年为了打出SNE，每天打无数几百buy-in的SNG，时
间还是紧，最后学了几天据说是达芬奇式睡觉，就是每4个小时，睡15分钟小觉。，，
没多久，受不了，崩溃不干了，呵呵。
【在 B*********s 的大作中提到】
: 可以拼数量。。。打出个supernova elite就值100k一年
| p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 36 这个SNE到底啥好处?
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: SNE去年全球不过不到300人，还是在比以前大幅度提高的基础上。
: 看前面有个贴的那个医院主任的打法，12桌100NL，5，6小时每天，为了$100K太艰难了
: 。很多人拿了SNE体验过了一把以后，都没有继续保持的愿望了。
: Bertrand "ElkY" Grospellier有一年为了打出SNE，每天打无数几百buy-in的SNG，时
: 间还是紧，最后学了几天据说是达芬奇式睡觉，就是每4个小时，睡15分钟小觉。，，
: 没多久，受不了，崩溃不干了，呵呵。
| T*********k
发帖数: 1621 | 37 Poker 能赚钱，最重要是找 fish。
论水平，NL 100 一下的，水平好也好不到哪里去。
现在打的多了，觉得 NL200 是比 NL100 难打。以前说什么 NL200 好打，全是 BS。
总体来说，要在 small stake 混的话，买几本书，把理论读读透，打的 tight 一些，
基本上就能赢钱了。
能赢多少不好说，不过当副业，也不错。炒股输输赢赢，赚了钱还交一大把税，poker
不用交。花些功夫还是值得的。 | H*******n
发帖数: 914 | 38 黎叔，FYI
Supernova Elite is the top rung of the VIP ladder. For most first time
chasers, it is worth approximately $115,000 (personalized calculator). To
reach SNE, tournament and shorthanded players pay just under $182,000 in
rake. Full ring players pay about $167,000.
Supernova Elite rewards:
Milestone Bonuses $30,800
Two Major Tournaments* $18,000-$30,400
WCOOP Main Event $5,200
FPP's** $48,700-$74,400
Total*** $102,700-$135,800
难了
，时
，，
【在 p*******p 的大作中提到】
: 这个SNE到底啥好处?
| y********n
发帖数: 2063 | 39 ELKY play 500$---1000$ buyin level SNG, but the skill of those players on
those stakes are way better than him, he lost huge amount of money. It is
mysterious number. I guess maybe he lost 200k/month.
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: SNE去年全球不过不到300人，还是在比以前大幅度提高的基础上。
: 看前面有个贴的那个医院主任的打法，12桌100NL，5，6小时每天，为了$100K太艰难了
: 。很多人拿了SNE体验过了一把以后，都没有继续保持的愿望了。
: Bertrand "ElkY" Grospellier有一年为了打出SNE，每天打无数几百buy-in的SNG，时
: 间还是紧，最后学了几天据说是达芬奇式睡觉，就是每4个小时，睡15分钟小觉。，，
: 没多久，受不了，崩溃不干了，呵呵。
| y********n
发帖数: 2063 | 40 But a lot of regs gets huge beat also. A lot of NL400 players lost all their
previous profit. (Some ppl said before, a lot of cardrunner coaches has no
winnings for over 1 year. Some just lost their live winnings, 1 million+
dollars.)
Those High buyin HU players has ridiculous swings also, they can lose 1/3 of
their live winnings.
【在 p*******p 的大作中提到】
: 初段没啥名气的话,也没太多收入的. 但是成为一个职业初段,难度是不可想象的.说句
: 难听的,这个板上所有人里面估计都未必能出一个. 但是扑克是个人就可以打,而且就像
: 大牛fcf说的,只要智力在70以上,用点心思,可以beat NL200的
| | | y********n
发帖数: 2063 | 41 King is right. When I first saw that post, I get shocked.
If you wana to win that 60K+ USD in a year from NL100. You have to play a
lot of tables, however, it decreases your focus, your winrate should be
around 4BB/100hands.
If you believe you can do better than those regs, just show us the result
after a year. And I bet your name will be on the magazine.
the
regular
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: This is exactly my point. Other than the fish that just come to donating the
: $$, these "regulars" are not that intelligent or capable as a human being
: in general. The top tier smart people are not going to grind NL100 or NL
: 200 for a living.
:
: for FTP, my estimate, the active pool of players at these levels are about
: 1000. rush at any point of time (~200 unique players), and about 30 regular
: tables. surely there're some fish but quite some of players are not.
| y********n
发帖数: 2063 | 42 Actually, your concept is not correct.
Consider if you can win money by playing chess above 80% ppl, you can make
20k$. Then, chess is not that a big deal.
However, in reality, you need beat 99.999% ppl to get 20K$ yearly salary by
playing chess. No one pays you a shit if you play soso chess. Regular IT job does not need the top 20% to make the money, in this sense, IT job is easier than poker, since poker needs top 10% or less to make the money.
Poker is actually hard than regular jobs in some way. Because in regular
engineering or retail field, you get some insurance from your company,
because the company organize your duties and cooperate a lot of ppl to let
making money easier. However, in poker, you have to depend on yourself, No
such company back you up, you have to bankroll yourself, study by
yourself, discover new tread by yourself, and improve by yourself,
everything becomes harder than regular job.
Nowadays, the studying curving of poker becomes shorter and shorter, only
those guys you can adapt very well can survive.
For example:
Now, I found I have very limited edge on 26$ 90ppl KO games, I have to quit
that game. (----yeah, it is not easy, because it could cost you a lot of
money to find it out.)
http://officialpokerrankings.com/fulltiltpoker/Shark365/poker/statistics/45ABF4555A61422FA14D3D3FD6F9C734.html?t=8 | y********n
发帖数: 2063 | 43 The key concept is the volume.
If you wana make decent money from NL100, the difficult part is volume.
Image high stake player will surely have high winning rate on low stake
games, but they can not do it, because they can not put enough volume.
Exactly as King points out, those heros are the players who has enough
volume and winning rate. If you can do that, you are the hero. But I really
doubt you can achieve it, because human are human, if other ppl find that is
very difficult to achieve, you will find it sooner or later. (nanonoku is
abnormal than majority of ppl, I guess he is that 0.0000001%)
King has another good point also, the rush poker makes it easier for regs to
play, because "otherwise ppl have to play 10
what nanonoku has done, play so many tables and without losing focus. | f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 44 shark365 is still around? lol, haven't checked his stats in a while.
good, he's still in top 300 out of 900K players for last 2 years.
by
job does not need the top 20% to make the money, in this sense, IT job is
easier than poker, since poker needs top 10% or less to make the money.
【在 y********n 的大作中提到】
: Actually, your concept is not correct.
: Consider if you can win money by playing chess above 80% ppl, you can make
: 20k$. Then, chess is not that a big deal.
: However, in reality, you need beat 99.999% ppl to get 20K$ yearly salary by
: playing chess. No one pays you a shit if you play soso chess. Regular IT job does not need the top 20% to make the money, in this sense, IT job is easier than poker, since poker needs top 10% or less to make the money.
: Poker is actually hard than regular jobs in some way. Because in regular
: engineering or retail field, you get some insurance from your company,
: because the company organize your duties and cooperate a lot of ppl to let
: making money easier. However, in poker, you have to depend on yourself, No
: such company back you up, you have to bankroll yourself, study by
| y********n
发帖数: 2063 | 45 Yes. I chat with him before, he is a college student, currently maybe
graduate this summer.
He lowers his buyin significantly.
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: shark365 is still around? lol, haven't checked his stats in a while.
: good, he's still in top 300 out of 900K players for last 2 years.
:
: by
: job does not need the top 20% to make the money, in this sense, IT job is
: easier than poker, since poker needs top 10% or less to make the money.
| p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 46 这个是直接给你钱,还是给你价值这些钱的tourmanents的ticket? ticket可以去哪里卖
掉么?
【在 H*******n 的大作中提到】
: 黎叔，FYI
: Supernova Elite is the top rung of the VIP ladder. For most first time
: chasers, it is worth approximately $115,000 (personalized calculator). To
: reach SNE, tournament and shorthanded players pay just under $182,000 in
: rake. Full ring players pay about $167,000.
: Supernova Elite rewards:
: Milestone Bonuses $30,800
: Two Major Tournaments* $18,000-$30,400
: WCOOP Main Event $5,200
: FPP's** $48,700-$74,400
| p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 47 嗯,我说的是在small stake混混的人,或许high stake不一样,没体验不清楚
their
no
of
【在 y********n 的大作中提到】
: But a lot of regs gets huge beat also. A lot of NL400 players lost all their
: previous profit. (Some ppl said before, a lot of cardrunner coaches has no
: winnings for over 1 year. Some just lost their live winnings, 1 million+
: dollars.)
: Those High buyin HU players has ridiculous swings also, they can lose 1/3 of
: their live winnings.
| p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 48 你们为啥要拿poker和IT比,我是说都是棋牌类的游戏里面,poker赚点小钱远比其他的容
易, 你要说job那没底了,一个弱智去mac扫地还能20k一年呢
by
job does not need the top 20% to make the money, in this sense, IT job is
easier than poker, since poker needs top 10% or less to make the money.
【在 y********n 的大作中提到】
: Actually, your concept is not correct.
: Consider if you can win money by playing chess above 80% ppl, you can make
: 20k$. Then, chess is not that a big deal.
: However, in reality, you need beat 99.999% ppl to get 20K$ yearly salary by
: playing chess. No one pays you a shit if you play soso chess. Regular IT job does not need the top 20% to make the money, in this sense, IT job is easier than poker, since poker needs top 10% or less to make the money.
: Poker is actually hard than regular jobs in some way. Because in regular
: engineering or retail field, you get some insurance from your company,
: because the company organize your duties and cooperate a lot of ppl to let
: making money easier. However, in poker, you have to depend on yourself, No
: such company back you up, you have to bankroll yourself, study by
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 49 Poker is a very simple and easy game. So much easier than chess or go and it
is almost ridiculous. I remember someone said on another board, "poker is
much more complicated than chess because it has more cards than the chess
pieces." I almost laughed at the computer screen. Anyone with a half brain
will not say something this stupid. Why is poker easy? It is simply
because of the decision tree. When we play any game, we need to make
decision with every move. The more option we have the more difficult the
game is because our chance of making a mistake increases. Now let us look at
poker. We have 4 streets if we actually get to river. Every street we have
check, bet or fold 3 options. That is whooping 3^4 81 options total!?! If
the game end at early street, the number of decisions we have to make
decreases dramatically. To choose between 81 options to complete a game,
this game is by no means difficult. You might say poker is about hand
reading of your opponent's card. You are right too. It sounds like a lot to
have chosen 2 out of 52 cards, but the fact is that these combinations can
be easily categorized to less than 10 type of hand, something like 1 pair 2
pair, trips, and you got the idea. With so few options in front of you, it
becomes so easy to pick up the game and be good at it. Now think the same about chess and go. you got the picture, didn't you? There is simply no comparison there.
Cstation asked a good question, if it is so easy why the best player in the
business can only win 3bb/100 hand over big example. This is very easy to
be explained by the natural of the game. But let me first say, if anyone
out there who play poker has a brain and wants to become good at poker, soon
this will become a 0 ev game for everyone simply because this game is so
easy to master. This goes back to my previous argument. 2 type of players
in poker mainly, and neither of them are very good, especially type 1 fish.
Therefore, there is still money to be made in poker at all stakes. So how
do we explain the mere win rate by the best players? I actually already
answered this question. This is because the simplicity of the game, where
the best player really has very little edge vs the so so player who never
improves further. What makes it worse is that even if someone has a major
leak, that leak really can not translate to big win rate over long run.
A simple example, someone always set farming a 3 betted pot without proper
odds. And he likes to play 60bb. This is a major leak obviously. But how
does that translate to ev to someone who exploit this leak?
This guy raise 3X with pocket deuce and someone 3 bet him to 12X with pocket
As and he calls. Well because of the SPR issue, pocket As really can't
fold anymore post flop. So he always go broke with it if this guy hits his
set. Now he has 1/8 chances to hit a set and win 60X bb and 7/8 of times he
loses 12bb. 7/8*12- 1/8*60=3Xbb. There is only 3Xbb gain every hand.
You get 1 AA every 220 hand. You really only get 0.014bb/100 hand to
exploit this obvious leak when you have AA!?! Disappointment? It is also virtuely the same ev as if he lay down to the 3 bet. Surprise? Now I am
simplifying this a bit just to illustrate a point, so there is no need to
argue whether someone can lay down an AA post flop. I am just trying to
prove a point that even an obvious leak can sometimes only yield marginal +
EV over long run. However, everything has two sides. This phenomenon in a
way actually helps hinder some players to advance and fix this leak, because
they can not see through the surface that to call a 3 bet at this spot is a
leak. If they never fix this leak, then we can always win out in the end to
exploit this again and again even with a very small win rate.
There are similar things like calling big raise with suited connector in position. (Even fryking who are a consistent winner argued with me to justify a 1/10 of stack call perflop on 56s in live 1$/2$ game!?! I can not say that I was
not surprised). Is this a very difficult leak to fix? Does it require super
intelligence to do? Apparently not. Why are these regulars not fixing this
leak? I do not know. But one day when everyone wakes up and actually use
their brain to fix these obvious leaks, there are simply no money to be made
in poker anymore. But I doubt this day will come simply because there are
always 2 type of player in the game like I described before. There are
always money to be made in poker and it can be done by anyone with a high
school degree.
Conslusion:
1)Poker is easy game and easy to master and win.
2)The winners in poker are not ultra smart but everyone else is terrible.
3)Easy game can't not translate to high winrate because of the nature of the game
4)If everyone wakes up or the smart people all come in and play, we will be all doomed
5)Now let us go out and crush when the good time still lasts. | y********n
发帖数: 2063 | 50 because you compare poker with chess before, they are so different, no
comparison at all.
Poker can compare with IT though just from incoming resource view per say,
it is very hard to make such comparison, each of them has cons and pros.
However, if you do need compare poker with IT, poker should be way tougher
than IT. (You need to be a super hero to make the same income as a micro
stake cash player, as fryking point out before.)
If you do just want to make small money, poker maybe still way harder than
MAC's 8$/hour job, since you have no guarantee. Plus, I do not think your
first 200 hours has any income at all.
【在 p*******p 的大作中提到】
: 你们为啥要拿poker和IT比,我是说都是棋牌类的游戏里面,poker赚点小钱远比其他的容
: 易, 你要说job那没底了,一个弱智去mac扫地还能20k一年呢
:
: by
: job does not need the top 20% to make the money, in this sense, IT job is
: easier than poker, since poker needs top 10% or less to make the money.
| | | W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 51 靠，那一大段我写了一小时。fryking 发包子吧。100 伪币。。 | y********n
发帖数: 2063 | 52 1.
Poker is a very simple and easy game. | y********n
发帖数: 2063 | 53 1.
Poker is a very simple and easy game. | p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 54
that's your opinion, not truth
【在 y********n 的大作中提到】
: because you compare poker with chess before, they are so different, no
: comparison at all.
: Poker can compare with IT though just from incoming resource view per say,
: it is very hard to make such comparison, each of them has cons and pros.
: However, if you do need compare poker with IT, poker should be way tougher
: than IT. (You need to be a super hero to make the same income as a micro
: stake cash player, as fryking point out before.)
: If you do just want to make small money, poker maybe still way harder than
: MAC's 8$/hour job, since you have no guarantee. Plus, I do not think your
: first 200 hours has any income at all.
| p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 55
the
point is, you don't have to master it to make money in poker, but in other
board games, you do
【在 y********n 的大作中提到】
: 1.
: Poker is a very simple and easy game.
| y********n
发帖数: 2063 | 56 Yes, this is my point. (Your concept to compare chess with poker is just not
good enough. Chess is just so different, only world class can survive. )
In this way, Poker is similar with IT. If only top 0.0001 ppl can survive in
regular job, majority of us can not qualify for it.
Even you spend your whole life on chess, you maybe can not make a penny on it by competing with other guys, even they do not give you the chance to compete since you are un-qualified.
【在 p*******p 的大作中提到】
:
: the
: point is, you don't have to master it to make money in poker, but in other
: board games, you do
| g**s
发帖数: 1114 | 57 I dont think poker is as easy as Windstormm said. I play go before I play
poker. I play go pretty well, love to play it and that's why my name is goes
here.
In Poker there are more decision you need to make other than just fold/call/
bet/raise. Different betting/raising size means different thing and you also
will get 3 bet, 4 bet.
So on each streets, they are way more choice than just fold/call/bet/raise.
Also the most important thing in poker is the incomplete information. There
is no 100% correct move when you see your 2 cards, not like in go/chess/
bridge.
If I have a super-super-super-power computer(ideally) and it will beat pro
9D 100% time, as it's pure math/calculation.
Same computer may not be able to beat NL100 game as poker is not just math/
calculation, it's something else plus math/calculation.
Another unique thing in poker is bad beats, even you play perfectly, you
still lose the game. In go/chess/bridge, this will never ever happen. | p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 58 对啊,我开篇不就是在说,poker赚钱比其他棋牌类容易么, 显然大家都认同这个观点,哈哈
not
in
it by competing with other guys, even they do not give you the chance to
compete since you are un-qualified.
【在 y********n 的大作中提到】
: Yes, this is my point. (Your concept to compare chess with poker is just not
: good enough. Chess is just so different, only world class can survive. )
: In this way, Poker is similar with IT. If only top 0.0001 ppl can survive in
: regular job, majority of us can not qualify for it.
: Even you spend your whole life on chess, you maybe can not make a penny on it by competing with other guys, even they do not give you the chance to compete since you are un-qualified.
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 59 poker 门槛太低。。 我玩9个月可以beat 一大堆玩了几年的鱼。 你玩go, chess,
bridge 行吗？假设大家每天花一样时间。。。
一个NL100 的winning regular 和一堆phill ivey, durr, PA 之类的人一桌打牌， 你就打ABC TAG game, 他们对你的edge 肯定没有 职业9 段对业余初段的edge 大。如果打50bb 短筹码，他们可能根本没有edge. 业余初段 对职业9 段， 不管怎样玩都没有一点机会赢
goes
call/
also
.
There
【在 g**s 的大作中提到】
: I dont think poker is as easy as Windstormm said. I play go before I play
: poker. I play go pretty well, love to play it and that's why my name is goes
: here.
: In Poker there are more decision you need to make other than just fold/call/
: bet/raise. Different betting/raising size means different thing and you also
: will get 3 bet, 4 bet.
: So on each streets, they are way more choice than just fold/call/bet/raise.
: Also the most important thing in poker is the incomplete information. There
: is no 100% correct move when you see your 2 cards, not like in go/chess/
: bridge.
| d*****0
发帖数: 1500 | 60 一口气把这么经典的帖子研读了一遍。
顶风暴兄的1小时长文，尤其例子讲得非常之生动。
油榨王的 “而且如果一个玩家有一阵不见了，最新的动态俺也争取及时更新”真的把
我给笑翻了。
还有其他几位大大，个个立场鲜明，也说得在理，作为1类poker玩家（消遣的鱼），我
没有必要发表任何评论。
纯顶！！
顺带提一下，存在即合理，顶级玩家微薄的收入必有其道理，到了那个层次自然会体会
到（这话其实说了等于没说，另外，everything is evolving，很难下定论，下个十年
poker会发展到如何程度，会有什么格局）。 | | | y********n
发帖数: 2063 | | f*f
发帖数: 121 | 62 I wrote a long reply then my son came and wiped it out.. :(((
anyway, to make little bit of money in poker is easy, but to be a pro is
hard. For most people, I would say if you can't make twice as much in poker
as your regular job, going pro is a mistake for you. Poker requires near
100% concentration when you play, that's quite different from regular job,
so it's hard to grind long hours. When I become a pro earlier this year, I
thought I would be able to put in 2000 hours this year easy.. Well, I am
right around 1000 hours now and the year is almost over. I have been busy
with many other things during the year so that's part of the reason, but the
other part of the reason is simply I find it hard to grind those long hours
.
As to the complicity of poker compare to other games, it's really hard to
say, at for no limit, it is arguably harder to program a deep stack no limit
bot than a bot for chess. While the game may seem simply, there are
factors involved such as game dynamics, opponent tendencies (remember, the
best strategy against each player is different), etc that just doesn't exist
in many other complete information game. | T*********k
发帖数: 1621 | 63 I think windstormm is referring to low stake game as easy game. If you are
willing to study and work hard a little bit, you can beat micro or low stake
game in a short period of time. Because just like ppl trading stocks, too
many ppl are too lazy to put any kind of effort to study and do research. If
you work hard than average joe a little bit, you can beat them.
However, I will never ever play poker as living, it is just too damn hard.
Just like fcf said, you have to concentrate all the time, especially in NL
games. Grinding for 8-9 hours, have a nice profit, and you can all give away
in one hand, by making the wrong decisions or getting unlucky.
I have concluded that I will forever be a low stake player. have a little
fun and earn a little profit. There are always fishes in these games and
beating them is easy. | B*********s
发帖数: 4158 | 64 我要保持单身。。。。。。
poker
I
the
hours
【在 f*f 的大作中提到】
: I wrote a long reply then my son came and wiped it out.. :(((
: anyway, to make little bit of money in poker is easy, but to be a pro is
: hard. For most people, I would say if you can't make twice as much in poker
: as your regular job, going pro is a mistake for you. Poker requires near
: 100% concentration when you play, that's quite different from regular job,
: so it's hard to grind long hours. When I become a pro earlier this year, I
: thought I would be able to put in 2000 hours this year easy.. Well, I am
: right around 1000 hours now and the year is almost over. I have been busy
: with many other things during the year so that's part of the reason, but the
: other part of the reason is simply I find it hard to grind those long hours
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 65 bigslick summarized it pretty well.
I by not means was trying to say that making a living in poker is easy. On
the other hand, my view on poker exactly proved the opposite.
Easy game to master,
Small edge in general,
even smaller profit margin over long run with any edge you have
the famous variance.
This all proved that when you go up the ladder, the game can become very
unprofitable during long run. I am also concered that poker can become a
0ev or -ev game for most of the current winners if everyone start to study
the game or a lot of smart people comes in and try to win.
Luckily, this has not happened at least not yet. Honestly, I do not understand why. FCF said "有高中毕业智商就能赢NL200", now at least 80% of players have this don't they? Only less than 20% of the player can actually make a profit as we have learned. This does not make sense does it? if the 20% of the people do not
have the intelligence and always lose, you still need have 60% of the
capable player (in terms of intelligence) to lose to make this happen. What
on earth happened to this 60% of players? Do they simply not want to win?
I am very confused.
FCF, can you explain your own quote? ~~~~
stake
If
away
【在 T*********k 的大作中提到】
: I think windstormm is referring to low stake game as easy game. If you are
: willing to study and work hard a little bit, you can beat micro or low stake
: game in a short period of time. Because just like ppl trading stocks, too
: many ppl are too lazy to put any kind of effort to study and do research. If
: you work hard than average joe a little bit, you can beat them.
: However, I will never ever play poker as living, it is just too damn hard.
: Just like fcf said, you have to concentrate all the time, especially in NL
: games. Grinding for 8-9 hours, have a nice profit, and you can all give away
: in one hand, by making the wrong decisions or getting unlucky.
: I have concluded that I will forever be a low stake player. have a little
| f*f
发帖数: 121 | 66 I do believe I can coach an average intelligence person who has a good
attitude and open mind the game in a few months that he/she will be able to
beat nl200 at least marginally.
Most players do not win because they do not take the game seriously. Poker
is deceptively easy, and variance makes good player lose and bad win from
time to time. So most players, especially bad ones, over-estimate their
ability. On an average low stakes live fullring table, probably 6 out of
the 9 players are going to be long term losers, but if you actually ask them
if they are winners, I bet except for a few true beginners, everyone thinks
he/she is a winner or at least breakeven.
Also, being skillful enough does not always mean you can win. Some average
Joe who has played fair number of hands can probably beat games up to 5c/10c
online, but he's going to waste his time in those level, instead, he
deposit 500 and play 200nl and lose. And this actually happens to pretty
good players too, I know a player who's probably about my level, but he has
major tilt issue and gambling problem, so when he's on tilt, he move up to
nosebleeds (and often drunk). I have not had a 100k month this year, he had
like 3 100k+ month, yet his total profit for the year is negative if I
remember correctly. | W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 67 FCF 说得不错。important skills to improve in poker
1) not to be result oriented. Most important of all skills in poker is to
see through the long term ev over 1 or 2 hands samples.
2) tilt control and bank roll management. This is not even poker skill anymore.
I actually think anyone who take this game seriously can beat NL100 (can't comment on NL200 since I have not played 1 hand there) at least
marginally simply by going to any free resources out there (i.e. 2+2 forum)
without getting any formal training or coaching. Are people really
unwilling to take the game seriously enough to win? Like 60% of them? I
think there is something we are missing here. | f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 68 i guess the gap is how we define "seriously".
i guess most "regulars" somehow all believe they're already taking this game
"seriously" (just like they believe they're better players than the other
75%), after all, they talk about XXX hands, play XXX hands, read X books,
watch Y videos, almost everyday... it's all about how much they really get
from these X and Ys. or like fcf said, most of them still overestimate their
skills.
like for myself, how many books have i read? 10+, how many videos? 100+ (lol
, i mean those WPT/WSOP ones), for real coaching videos which are really
helpful to me? almost NONE. how many hands i play in a year? 500K+, hours? XXX.
..
am i a serious player? NO, i don't even believe i'm close to that for a
small stake player. otherwise long time ago i would have:
1) spent 20% of time studying everyday as many pros suggest;
2) joined cardrunner or other programs and downloaded XXX videos AND really
watched/digested them;
3) hired someone for coaching and not cared about hourly rate.
4) reviewed HUD data session by session, hand by hand.
...
anymore.
comment on NL200 since I have not played 1 hand there) at least
forum)
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: FCF 说得不错。important skills to improve in poker
: 1) not to be result oriented. Most important of all skills in poker is to
: see through the long term ev over 1 or 2 hands samples.
: 2) tilt control and bank roll management. This is not even poker skill anymore.
: I actually think anyone who take this game seriously can beat NL100 (can't comment on NL200 since I have not played 1 hand there) at least
: marginally simply by going to any free resources out there (i.e. 2+2 forum)
: without getting any formal training or coaching. Are people really
: unwilling to take the game seriously enough to win? Like 60% of them? I
: think there is something we are missing here.
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 69 The people actually do what you listed is probably less than 1% at micro
small stake. I don't even do any of those other than having read 2 book and
watched less than 10 videos from card runners. I do review some hand the
next day in my head but I don't do it systematicly from my HUD. I think I take poker pretty seriously.
The thing I do most often is to go to 2+2 forum and read other people's post
.
game
their
lol
XXX.
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: i guess the gap is how we define "seriously".
: i guess most "regulars" somehow all believe they're already taking this game
: "seriously" (just like they believe they're better players than the other
: 75%), after all, they talk about XXX hands, play XXX hands, read X books,
: watch Y videos, almost everyday... it's all about how much they really get
: from these X and Ys. or like fcf said, most of them still overestimate their
: skills.
: like for myself, how many books have i read? 10+, how many videos? 100+ (lol
: , i mean those WPT/WSOP ones), for real coaching videos which are really
: helpful to me? almost NONE. how many hands i play in a year? 500K+, hours? XXX.
| f*f
发帖数: 121 | 70 hehe.. I probably spend less than 5% of the time studying, not on holdem
anyway. Even when I started playing, I never really read any strategy book,
just twoplustwo posts and talking to friends and thinking about hands
myself. I did a lot of EV line calculation when I was a beginner to make
sure my 4bet/5bet shove with A3o is better than folding against certain
opponent etc. I hardly ever review a hand these days, most of the hands I
save for review are hands that I thought was funny. like the following:
BTN/SB: $1000.00
Hero (BB): $890.00
Pre Flop: ($15.00) Hero is BB with Ts 9h
BTN/SB raises to $20, Hero calls $10
Flop: ($40.00) 3h Jc Jh (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets $10, Hero raises to $30, BTN/SB raises to $50, Hero
raises to $130, BTN/SB calls $80
Turn: ($300.00) Tc (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets $165, Hero calls $165
River: ($630.00) 7d (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB checks
Final Pot: $630.00
BTN/SB mucks 4d 7c
Hero shows Ts 9h (two pair, Jacks and Tens)
Hero wins $629.50
(Rake: $0.50)
the hand was against a top regular at 5/10, we both know that it's hard to
hit this flop, once he bet that small amount on the turn, I know very
certain that he's planning to bet/3bet so I was going to 4bet and plan to
check / shove the turn if it's not J, 3, T, 9. Once I hit, of course I got
slow play this and hope he bluff shove the river which I think he would if
he didn't also hit the river. ^_^. | | | W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 71 Agreed. Think about the game more yourself + visiting 2+2 = profit at micro/
small stake.
fcf 大侠能不能请你多在这里其它文章里发发帖？ 我很想听听你对我们一些讨论的不
同意见。能指出一些错误观点，我们都会感激不尽的， 还是您老看我们一堆鱼争论不
休，不屑发贴啊？
book,
【在 f*f 的大作中提到】
: hehe.. I probably spend less than 5% of the time studying, not on holdem
: anyway. Even when I started playing, I never really read any strategy book,
: just twoplustwo posts and talking to friends and thinking about hands
: myself. I did a lot of EV line calculation when I was a beginner to make
: sure my 4bet/5bet shove with A3o is better than folding against certain
: opponent etc. I hardly ever review a hand these days, most of the hands I
: save for review are hands that I thought was funny. like the following:
: BTN/SB: $1000.00
: Hero (BB): $890.00
: Pre Flop: ($15.00) Hero is BB with Ts 9h
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 72 btw, have you NOVA guys settled for room and car pooling? so i don't need to
check prices, thanks!
book,
【在 f*f 的大作中提到】
: hehe.. I probably spend less than 5% of the time studying, not on holdem
: anyway. Even when I started playing, I never really read any strategy book,
: just twoplustwo posts and talking to friends and thinking about hands
: myself. I did a lot of EV line calculation when I was a beginner to make
: sure my 4bet/5bet shove with A3o is better than folding against certain
: opponent etc. I hardly ever review a hand these days, most of the hands I
: save for review are hands that I thought was funny. like the following:
: BTN/SB: $1000.00
: Hero (BB): $890.00
: Pre Flop: ($15.00) Hero is BB with Ts 9h
| f*f
发帖数: 121 | 73 I don't see many strategy posts here actually and most of the posts are
about full ring hands. I don't have much experience with fullring and I
really don't have experience with those stake levels anyway, so I am
unfamiliar with everyone's range and that's what's important in 99% of the
situation. As a result, most of the hands posted here, i am actually not
equipped to comment :)
oh.. I haven't booked the room yet, it's 2 months away so I thought I can wait a little and book it later. Is it suppose to be cheaper if I book now? I just checked the website, it's 184/night + tax+ fee, so come out something like 430 total. | B*********s
发帖数: 4158 | 74 不玩fr？pro大都打HU吗？
wait a little and book it later. Is it suppose to be cheaper if I book now?
I just checked the website, it's 184/night + tax+ fee, so come out
something like 430 total.
【在 f*f 的大作中提到】
: I don't see many strategy posts here actually and most of the posts are
: about full ring hands. I don't have much experience with fullring and I
: really don't have experience with those stake levels anyway, so I am
: unfamiliar with everyone's range and that's what's important in 99% of the
: situation. As a result, most of the hands posted here, i am actually not
: equipped to comment :)
: oh.. I haven't booked the room yet, it's 2 months away so I thought I can wait a little and book it later. Is it suppose to be cheaper if I book now? I just checked the website, it's 184/night + tax+ fee, so come out something like 430 total.
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 75 你看老大今年一月份的图就知道了，edge极大，从200NL到1000NL，rate都是30BB+/100
以上的，赫赫。
now?
【在 B*********s 的大作中提到】
: 不玩fr？pro大都打HU吗？
:
: wait a little and book it later. Is it suppose to be cheaper if I book now?
: I just checked the website, it's 184/night + tax+ fee, so come out
: something like 430 total.
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 76 价钱不会差多少了，主要是周六贵些，你们几个要是carpool，房间也一起订的话，行
动方便一些。你还免点税。您是职业的，没准还想多玩一两晚呢？呵呵。
俺们其他人一个房间(thebigslick订的那个)，将就些应该可以了，洗个澡打个盹好了
，这帮人都是上桌了下不来的。
wait a little and book it later. Is it suppose to be cheaper if I book now?
I just checked the website, it's 184/night + tax+ fee, so come out
something like 430 total.
【在 f*f 的大作中提到】
: I don't see many strategy posts here actually and most of the posts are
: about full ring hands. I don't have much experience with fullring and I
: really don't have experience with those stake levels anyway, so I am
: unfamiliar with everyone's range and that's what's important in 99% of the
: situation. As a result, most of the hands posted here, i am actually not
: equipped to comment :)
: oh.. I haven't booked the room yet, it's 2 months away so I thought I can wait a little and book it later. Is it suppose to be cheaper if I book now? I just checked the website, it's 184/night + tax+ fee, so come out something like 430 total.
| L****n
发帖数: 490 | 77 You can book for me and my friend, fcf
not mind much about the price difference. I will pm you my cell number. | f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 78 i'll transfer your deposit ($40) back in a min., you guys go ahead and
settle, thanks.
【在 L****n 的大作中提到】
: You can book for me and my friend, fcf
: not mind much about the price difference. I will pm you my cell number.
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 79 fryking, how many people do you have now for the 2 rooms? | f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 80 check the latest update, if fcf they take 4 for room B, we're having about 4
-6 ppl for room A, including those, like you, 1 nighters.
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: fryking, how many people do you have now for the 2 rooms?
| | | W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 81 Great if i could squeeze in. If you all stay on the table, then i could
sleep on a whole bed.. hoho.. | f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 82 i plan to bring my sleeping bag anyway, i'm kind of big in size and snore
like crazy, leave beds for you ladies.
but frankly, bed time is the BEST time to play poker, like one dealer said,
"if you want to make $, play in the early mornings, ppl all with big stacks,
or on tilt, or drunk, or too sleepy, or want to get even..."
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: Great if i could squeeze in. If you all stay on the table, then i could
: sleep on a whole bed.. hoho..
| G********r
发帖数: 666 | 83 Very very informative posts. Thanks to you all, especially fcf, windstormm,
fryking banzhu and patrick who started this series. | vq
发帖数: 30 | 84 从来没在这发言过，说两句。
我觉得最后赢的只有庄家/赌场，和极少数的player。
player输赢的钱都在players之间流动，
但每把有抽水，看似少，但长远看是很大的一笔。
任你再精明的player，总会有倒大霉的时候。
比如你的strong hand遇到stronger hand，
除非你知道对方底牌，否则正常人不可能folding，
此时还往往是大注或all in。
而且赌徒重的人，很难把自己的情绪控制的始终平稳。
输输赢赢，最后钱都被抽水抽掉了。
我曾在一家中等规模的casino做过2年的card dealer，
我们的poker room据我所知只有2个人是赢钱的。
把poker当成一种消遣玩玩还是不错的，反正娱乐也是一种消费。
想偶尔赚钱，容易；想稳定赚钱，难。
【在 p*******p 的大作中提到】
: 哪怕是打的像我这么烂的,只要在low level grind grind, 一年如果每天都坚持花几个
: 小时, 磨个几万美金还是有希望的. 你要想在围棋里面一年能收入几万美金,职业初段
: 都做不到估计. 相比之下,扑克的投入产出实在是太丰厚了
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 85 live里面要长期赢钱而且赢大钱，确实很难，因为时间消耗巨大，毕竟，一个小时20把
撑死，又不能同时N桌，非职业的又不可能每个周末都泡在赌场，而且，除了象LV，AC
等少数地方，很难找到比较大一些的stakes(比如5/10NL)，很多游戏如stud什么的都不
一定够人，开的得出一两张桌子来。
online稍微好些，毕竟任何时间都可以玩，比较灵活，数量也可以玩很多桌，很多不同
游戏。对于很多起步的玩家，全美国你都找不到一个赌场可以让你玩几块钱buy-in，几
千人的比赛，或者$20就可以练手的cash game。但是UIGEA对online的打击很大，活生
生把一个星火燎原的poker boom给打下去了，现在剩下的人，远不是05，06那时候万千
鲤鱼送钱的年代了。
【在 vq 的大作中提到】
: 从来没在这发言过，说两句。
: 我觉得最后赢的只有庄家/赌场，和极少数的player。
: player输赢的钱都在players之间流动，
: 但每把有抽水，看似少，但长远看是很大的一笔。
: 任你再精明的player，总会有倒大霉的时候。
: 比如你的strong hand遇到stronger hand，
: 除非你知道对方底牌，否则正常人不可能folding，
: 此时还往往是大注或all in。
: 而且赌徒重的人，很难把自己的情绪控制的始终平稳。
: 输输赢赢，最后钱都被抽水抽掉了。
| p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 86 还真不难...
【在 vq 的大作中提到】
: 从来没在这发言过，说两句。
: 我觉得最后赢的只有庄家/赌场，和极少数的player。
: player输赢的钱都在players之间流动，
: 但每把有抽水，看似少，但长远看是很大的一笔。
: 任你再精明的player，总会有倒大霉的时候。
: 比如你的strong hand遇到stronger hand，
: 除非你知道对方底牌，否则正常人不可能folding，
: 此时还往往是大注或all in。
: 而且赌徒重的人，很难把自己的情绪控制的始终平稳。
: 输输赢赢，最后钱都被抽水抽掉了。
| p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 87 赢钱!=赢大钱,我的整个point 就是,你每年赢个去夏威夷vacation的钱对大部分智商70
以上的人来说都是完全可行. 要靠这个吃饭(赢>100k 一年)的应该会比较难(起码会比
较累), 看看下围棋的,玩象棋的,99.9%连个方便面的钱都赚不到. 所以poker还是很不
错的,又好玩,又实惠,唯一的就是像我们这种普通人,要满足于赚小钱,
AC
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: live里面要长期赢钱而且赢大钱，确实很难，因为时间消耗巨大，毕竟，一个小时20把
: 撑死，又不能同时N桌，非职业的又不可能每个周末都泡在赌场，而且，除了象LV，AC
: 等少数地方，很难找到比较大一些的stakes(比如5/10NL)，很多游戏如stud什么的都不
: 一定够人，开的得出一两张桌子来。
: online稍微好些，毕竟任何时间都可以玩，比较灵活，数量也可以玩很多桌，很多不同
: 游戏。对于很多起步的玩家，全美国你都找不到一个赌场可以让你玩几块钱buy-in，几
: 千人的比赛，或者$20就可以练手的cash game。但是UIGEA对online的打击很大，活生
: 生把一个星火燎原的poker boom给打下去了，现在剩下的人，远不是05，06那时候万千
: 鲤鱼送钱的年代了。
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