B********r
发帖数: 2787 | 1 twitter和FLG比起来怎么样啊，待遇相仿吗？
上市后前景如何啊？一般员工能像facebook那样的小发一笔吗？
公司在三藩，从两湾过去似乎太辛苦了一些。 |
m*******i
发帖数: 8711 | 2 depend on how much you want to make |
f******2
发帖数: 2455 | 3 听说没有Google轻松，赚钱也实际比不上FLG.
【在 B********r 的大作中提到】
: twitter和FLG比起来怎么样啊，待遇相仿吗？
: 上市后前景如何啊？一般员工能像facebook那样的小发一笔吗？
: 公司在三藩，从两湾过去似乎太辛苦了一些。
|
j****n
发帖数: 4358 | 4 据说给百万股票。
【在 B********r 的大作中提到】
: twitter和FLG比起来怎么样啊，待遇相仿吗？
: 上市后前景如何啊？一般员工能像facebook那样的小发一笔吗？
: 公司在三藩，从两湾过去似乎太辛苦了一些。
|
m*******i
发帖数: 8711 | 5 when facebook around 1000 people, the engineer got 10k to 20k pre split
worth about 100k to 200k at that time. Of course facebook value increased
10x from that time. Twitter is bigger than 1000 people now and Twitter won't
worth 60B
so as a very senior engineer, you might make 500k to 1m eventually |
g*********e
发帖数: 14401 | |
m*******i
发帖数: 8711 | 7 sure it can
【在 g*********e 的大作中提到】
: twitter能不能上市还是个问题
|
t**********g
发帖数: 3388 | 8 it has to. 因为现在已经没有哪家会/能买它了
【在 m*******i 的大作中提到】
: sure it can
|
B********r
发帖数: 2787 | 9 就是解决个小黑屋就行
【在 m*******i 的大作中提到】
: depend on how much you want to make
|
B********r
发帖数: 2787 | 10 交了税也就25万到50万
还得四年拼死拼活
好像有点不值得啊
't
【在 m*******i 的大作中提到】
: when facebook around 1000 people, the engineer got 10k to 20k pre split
: worth about 100k to 200k at that time. Of course facebook value increased
: 10x from that time. Twitter is bigger than 1000 people now and Twitter won't
: worth 60B
: so as a very senior engineer, you might make 500k to 1m eventually
|
|
|
m*******i
发帖数: 8711 | 11 there is no free money. Can you make more any where else? The problem is
that twitter's valuation is too rich now, unlike LinkedIn when it was IPO
【 在 BearAffair (别怕) 的大作中提到: 】 |
B********r
发帖数: 2787 | 12 4年25万税后，也不是特别多的样子
别的地方不见得多，但是算hourly rate不见得低
valuation这个问题，好像有点泡沫
象FB上市，先来个100B，然后指望长成1000B
也太不现实了
这种小公司不会有一天没钱关门吧？现在break even了吗？
有点想去面面，搞个offer来再说
【在 m*******i 的大作中提到】
: there is no free money. Can you make more any where else? The problem is
: that twitter's valuation is too rich now, unlike LinkedIn when it was IPO
: 【 在 BearAffair (别怕) 的大作中提到: 】
|
m*******i
发帖数: 8711 | 13 Twitter is there to stay. It is NOT a small company!
it is not even a startup any more
【在 B********r 的大作中提到】
: 4年25万税后，也不是特别多的样子
: 别的地方不见得多，但是算hourly rate不见得低
: valuation这个问题，好像有点泡沫
: 象FB上市，先来个100B，然后指望长成1000B
: 也太不现实了
: 这种小公司不会有一天没钱关门吧？现在break even了吗？
: 有点想去面面，搞个offer来再说
|
B********r
发帖数: 2787 | 14 梅姐渊博
是不是T比FLG更值得去？
【在 m*******i 的大作中提到】
: Twitter is there to stay. It is NOT a small company!
: it is not even a startup any more
|
r********n
发帖数: 300 | 15 Too late. not worth it. All those people who joined Facebook 1-2 years
before IPO did not make sensible money because of their already high
valuation before IPO. You need to join in company with valuation around 1-2B
to win big. Try Lookout if you can (because Dropbox, Square, Airbnb already
>5B)
【在 B********r 的大作中提到】
: twitter和FLG比起来怎么样啊，待遇相仿吗？
: 上市后前景如何啊？一般员工能像facebook那样的小发一笔吗？
: 公司在三藩，从两湾过去似乎太辛苦了一些。
|
B********r
发帖数: 2787 | 16 有道理。
那还是继续偶早9晚5的快乐生活吧
每天回家吃自己做的饭
不用commute个两三个小时
从南湾到三藩无论开车还是坐shuttle都很痛苦
2B
already
【在 r********n 的大作中提到】
: Too late. not worth it. All those people who joined Facebook 1-2 years
: before IPO did not make sensible money because of their already high
: valuation before IPO. You need to join in company with valuation around 1-2B
: to win big. Try Lookout if you can (because Dropbox, Square, Airbnb already
: >5B)
|
m*******i
发帖数: 8711 | 17 I don"t see any current 1-2B companies have that potential. Maybe pinterest,
it still have less than 200 people. Dunno its package though
2B
already
【在 r********n 的大作中提到】
: Too late. not worth it. All those people who joined Facebook 1-2 years
: before IPO did not make sensible money because of their already high
: valuation before IPO. You need to join in company with valuation around 1-2B
: to win big. Try Lookout if you can (because Dropbox, Square, Airbnb already
: >5B)
|
m*******i
发帖数: 8711 | 18 Twitter has an office in mountain view and is renovating a permanent one in
Sunnyvale
【在 B********r 的大作中提到】
: 有道理。
: 那还是继续偶早9晚5的快乐生活吧
: 每天回家吃自己做的饭
: 不用commute个两三个小时
: 从南湾到三藩无论开车还是坐shuttle都很痛苦
:
: 2B
: already
|
B********r
发帖数: 2787 | 19 那还可以考虑啊，哈哈
T的package和G的比起来如何？
in
【在 m*******i 的大作中提到】
: Twitter has an office in mountain view and is renovating a permanent one in
: Sunnyvale
|
m*******i
发帖数: 8711 | 20 better.
right now google, Twitter, google, square and dropbox are tier one eng
companies
【在 B********r 的大作中提到】
: 那还可以考虑啊，哈哈
: T的package和G的比起来如何？
:
: in
|
|
|
p*****u
发帖数: 188 | 21 Twitter maybe a little better based on Twitter's current valuation of $8-10B.
It all depends on how much you think Twitter will worth after IPO.
【在 B********r 的大作中提到】
: 那还可以考虑啊，哈哈
: T的package和G的比起来如何？
:
: in
|
m****u
发帖数: 3915 | 22 4年25万税后是extra money，twitter又不是不发工资，而且基本上没有风险，我觉得
很多了
板上果然牛人遍地走啊
【在 B********r 的大作中提到】
: 4年25万税后，也不是特别多的样子
: 别的地方不见得多，但是算hourly rate不见得低
: valuation这个问题，好像有点泡沫
: 象FB上市，先来个100B，然后指望长成1000B
: 也太不现实了
: 这种小公司不会有一天没钱关门吧？现在break even了吗？
: 有点想去面面，搞个offer来再说
|
m*******i
发帖数: 8711 | 23 20-30B is my guess
10B.
【在 p*****u 的大作中提到】
: Twitter maybe a little better based on Twitter's current valuation of $8-10B.
: It all depends on how much you think Twitter will worth after IPO.
|
p*****u
发帖数: 188 | 24 FLG also have stable stocks and bonus on top of base salary,
while Twitter's $250K after tax money is still
paper money at this moment. Although I think Twitter will do well in IPO.
【在 m****u 的大作中提到】
: 4年25万税后是extra money，twitter又不是不发工资，而且基本上没有风险，我觉得
: 很多了
: 板上果然牛人遍地走啊
|
p*****u
发帖数: 188 | 25 Very likely..
【在 m*******i 的大作中提到】
: 20-30B is my guess
:
: 10B.
|
s*****r
发帖数: 43070 | 26 LinkedIn也不错
【在 m*******i 的大作中提到】
: better.
: right now google, Twitter, google, square and dropbox are tier one eng
: companies
|
c*********r
发帖数: 2097 | |
w*********m
发帖数: 4740 | 28 how about pinterest and flipboard?
【在 m*******i 的大作中提到】
: better.
: right now google, Twitter, google, square and dropbox are tier one eng
: companies
|
m*******i
发帖数: 8711 | 29 I am talking about tiers in term of eng reputation (add points to your
resume). pinterest, flip board, LinkedIn no at the same eng level
eng in tier one are perceived to work on real hard problems
【在 w*********m 的大作中提到】
: how about pinterest and flipboard?
|
h*******1
发帖数: 401 | 30 梅同学在twitter上班？给大家多介绍一下情况啊
我认为twitter现在10B估值有点低，15B-20B是合理的区间
Twitter, google, square and dropbox are tier one eng? 估计FB的同学要和你拼了
。。。
这个问题应该这样理解：
google有很多牛人 主要因为他的人口基数大，几万号人马呢
twitter的牛人 不知道 举几个例子？但这不影响它15B-20B的估值。
square and dropbox还是典型的startup 你管他有没有牛人，又不能当饭吃。看商业
前景。square和dropbox在各自领域都相当不错。现在去 怎么也能混个米吧 当然也有
风险，square的风险便是传统的visa、master等等 square是抢了visa、master等没重
视的small business。paypal等也会虎视眈眈。市场起来后，大家都会一拼而上，
google也会插一脚。dropbox的风险是box等公司已经在做business领域，后面也会很多
大的player进来。personal领域现在还赚不到钱，而且竞争已经非常激烈。
虽然有一点点风险，现在去square和dropbox回报还是不错的。两个公司都会成为10B的
公司，更多就看造化了。
pinterest和airbnb现在风险还比较高，”风险回报比“可能比不上square和dropbox。
但是现在两家估值相对少，都是2.5B。硬撑到10B，那就是4x的增长。pinterest的想象
空间比较大，毕竟站队站到了互联网最大的ecommerce蛋糕这边。who knows，right？
【在 m*******i 的大作中提到】
: better.
: right now google, Twitter, google, square and dropbox are tier one eng
: companies
|
|
|
m*******i
发帖数: 8711 | 31 sorry, forgot to include Facebook
【在 h*******1 的大作中提到】
: 梅同学在twitter上班？给大家多介绍一下情况啊
: 我认为twitter现在10B估值有点低，15B-20B是合理的区间
: Twitter, google, square and dropbox are tier one eng? 估计FB的同学要和你拼了
: 。。。
: 这个问题应该这样理解：
: google有很多牛人 主要因为他的人口基数大，几万号人马呢
: twitter的牛人 不知道 举几个例子？但这不影响它15B-20B的估值。
: square and dropbox还是典型的startup 你管他有没有牛人，又不能当饭吃。看商业
: 前景。square和dropbox在各自领域都相当不错。现在去 怎么也能混个米吧 当然也有
: 风险，square的风险便是传统的visa、master等等 square是抢了visa、master等没重
|
m*******i
发帖数: 8711 | 32 when I talk about tier one, it is not about niu ren. it is the average eng
quality ( in google, probably the ones joining before 2010) and the hard
problems they work on.
you never know how much you can make in a startup, thus the perceived eng
value is very important for your next job hunting
【在 h*******1 的大作中提到】
: 梅同学在twitter上班？给大家多介绍一下情况啊
: 我认为twitter现在10B估值有点低，15B-20B是合理的区间
: Twitter, google, square and dropbox are tier one eng? 估计FB的同学要和你拼了
: 。。。
: 这个问题应该这样理解：
: google有很多牛人 主要因为他的人口基数大，几万号人马呢
: twitter的牛人 不知道 举几个例子？但这不影响它15B-20B的估值。
: square and dropbox还是典型的startup 你管他有没有牛人，又不能当饭吃。看商业
: 前景。square和dropbox在各自领域都相当不错。现在去 怎么也能混个米吧 当然也有
: 风险，square的风险便是传统的visa、master等等 square是抢了visa、master等没重
|
s********k
发帖数: 6180 | 33 Nestlabs?
【在 m*******i 的大作中提到】
: I am talking about tiers in term of eng reputation (add points to your
: resume). pinterest, flip board, LinkedIn no at the same eng level
: eng in tier one are perceived to work on real hard problems
|
m*******i
发帖数: 8711 | 34 not considered as software comapany, just like apple and Samsung are top
companies, but their software eng is not considered top tier |
h*******1
发帖数: 401 | 35 how do you measure the "average eng quality"? One thing that can help is
looking at their potential good hiring time window.
People who are really good engineers are joining google in early 2000, but
how many are still there?
Best engineers are trying to join Facebook in 2009, 2010. These people are
already starting to leave this big sinking ship.
to be honest, Twitter, i think its AVERAGE eng quality is far less than
Facebook, dropbox and square, even pinterest. why? because there is not a
good time window for them to hire good people.
Now it is a good hiring time window for SF startups, like dropbox,square,
pinterest, airbnb. |
h*******1
发帖数: 401 | 36 To answer the LZ's question, it is not late if you can get around 20K shares
. It's current valuation is 10B, which can grow to 15B - 20B in its IPO. |
w*********m
发帖数: 4740 | 37 then how about income?
【在 m*******i 的大作中提到】
: I am talking about tiers in term of eng reputation (add points to your
: resume). pinterest, flip board, LinkedIn no at the same eng level
: eng in tier one are perceived to work on real hard problems
|
m*******i
发帖数: 8711 | 38 how much a share now?
to answer your question above, eng join google in before 2010 are generally
good. the real competition to it is Facebook but Facebook was small at that
time.
the people getting into google and Facebook in 2009 to mid 2010 are generaly
very good because the economy was crappy at that time and only the best can
get in.
Twitter pre-2010 is not good, but it picks up good hirings starting mid-
later 2011 because the best thought Facebook IPO ship was sailing out and
they wanted to go to next one
shares
【在 h*******1 的大作中提到】
: To answer the LZ's question, it is not late if you can get around 20K shares
: . It's current valuation is 10B, which can grow to 15B - 20B in its IPO.
|
m*******i
发帖数: 8711 | 39 those companies will guarantee pay at 95%
【在 w*********m 的大作中提到】
: then how about income?
|
m*******i
发帖数: 8711 | 40 it was 16/share when it was at 8B valuation, assume 3x-4x up side (20B to
30B), 20k shares will worth 1.2M, like I guessed |
|
|
g*****g
发帖数: 34805 | 41 Consider Netflix with 30M paid users is now valued around 10B.
Other than Twitter, I don't think startups like pinterest, square and
dropbox is anywhere close to 10B valuation.
【在 h*******1 的大作中提到】
: 梅同学在twitter上班？给大家多介绍一下情况啊
: 我认为twitter现在10B估值有点低，15B-20B是合理的区间
: Twitter, google, square and dropbox are tier one eng? 估计FB的同学要和你拼了
: 。。。
: 这个问题应该这样理解：
: google有很多牛人 主要因为他的人口基数大，几万号人马呢
: twitter的牛人 不知道 举几个例子？但这不影响它15B-20B的估值。
: square and dropbox还是典型的startup 你管他有没有牛人，又不能当饭吃。看商业
: 前景。square和dropbox在各自领域都相当不错。现在去 怎么也能混个米吧 当然也有
: 风险，square的风险便是传统的visa、master等等 square是抢了visa、master等没重
|
m*******i
发帖数: 8711 | 42 Talking about present value is useless. what matters is future value in 4
years
【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: Consider Netflix with 30M paid users is now valued around 10B.
: Other than Twitter, I don't think startups like pinterest, square and
: dropbox is anywhere close to 10B valuation.
|
r********n
发帖数: 300 | 43 Following the crowd can only give you above average win. To win big, you
need to follow the few extra smart guys, not a big smart group.
Donot understand it makes any money sense to join in Facebook right now no
matter how high its perceived eng value is. Dropbox and Square stock value
are already very high. You can hardly exercise your options because of the
high tax. The same with Twitter, you can just be trapped there before
cashing out. Plus they cannot give you many shares. Valuation around 1B is a
golden point to join: you get many shares and you can exercise and leave
the company for your own passion later on, and pay long term tax.
Pinterest and Flipboard could be good startups too. But the former sounds
better than the latter, I guess.
【在 m*******i 的大作中提到】
: when I talk about tier one, it is not about niu ren. it is the average eng
: quality ( in google, probably the ones joining before 2010) and the hard
: problems they work on.
: you never know how much you can make in a startup, thus the perceived eng
: value is very important for your next job hunting
|
r********n
发帖数: 300 | 44
you
a
【在 r********n 的大作中提到】
: Following the crowd can only give you above average win. To win big, you
: need to follow the few extra smart guys, not a big smart group.
: Donot understand it makes any money sense to join in Facebook right now no
: matter how high its perceived eng value is. Dropbox and Square stock value
: are already very high. You can hardly exercise your options because of the
: high tax. The same with Twitter, you can just be trapped there before
: cashing out. Plus they cannot give you many shares. Valuation around 1B is a
: golden point to join: you get many shares and you can exercise and leave
: the company for your own passion later on, and pay long term tax.
: Pinterest and Flipboard could be good startups too. But the former sounds
|
r********n
发帖数: 300 | 45 Sure it is not an easy job to dig gold. By the time everyone hears about the
startup, it will be extremely hard to join in and stock price will go up
very quickly. Only few super smart or lucky guys can catch the golden window.
pinterest,
【在 m*******i 的大作中提到】
: I don"t see any current 1-2B companies have that potential. Maybe pinterest,
: it still have less than 200 people. Dunno its package though
:
: 2B
: already
|
m*******i
发帖数: 8711 | 46 super smart folks won't come here for advice
the
window.
【在 r********n 的大作中提到】
: Sure it is not an easy job to dig gold. By the time everyone hears about the
: startup, it will be extremely hard to join in and stock price will go up
: very quickly. Only few super smart or lucky guys can catch the golden window.
:
: pinterest,
|
i**p
发帖数: 940 | 47 别这么说。一般来这咨询的都是没太多经验和connection的，和smart与否关系不一定
大。
【在 m*******i 的大作中提到】
: super smart folks won't come here for advice
:
: the
: window.
|
i**p
发帖数: 940 | 48 这个靠谱。一个公司valuation太高的时候，不光透支了未来价格上涨的潜力，而且
options价格太贵，一旦进去就被trap在那里。
Twitter就是一个成熟的公司，给的是RSU，不存在有没有钱exercise options的问题，
但同样的，给的不可能多，我觉得和拿到一个好的goog offer差不多。
Square去年给的还是options，今年不知道是RSU还是options。但我感觉那里似乎有点
问题，看看那里executives的turn over rate就知道了。
a
【在 r********n 的大作中提到】
: Following the crowd can only give you above average win. To win big, you
: need to follow the few extra smart guys, not a big smart group.
: Donot understand it makes any money sense to join in Facebook right now no
: matter how high its perceived eng value is. Dropbox and Square stock value
: are already very high. You can hardly exercise your options because of the
: high tax. The same with Twitter, you can just be trapped there before
: cashing out. Plus they cannot give you many shares. Valuation around 1B is a
: golden point to join: you get many shares and you can exercise and leave
: the company for your own passion later on, and pay long term tax.
: Pinterest and Flipboard could be good startups too. But the former sounds
|
s*****r
发帖数: 43070 | 49 square有到10B的可能，dropbox可能是个groupon，pinterest没看懂能靠啥赚钱。
【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: Consider Netflix with 30M paid users is now valued around 10B.
: Other than Twitter, I don't think startups like pinterest, square and
: dropbox is anywhere close to 10B valuation.
|
m*******i
发帖数: 8711 | 50 Square doesn't have good collaborative culture
【在 i**p 的大作中提到】
: 这个靠谱。一个公司valuation太高的时候，不光透支了未来价格上涨的潜力，而且
: options价格太贵，一旦进去就被trap在那里。
: Twitter就是一个成熟的公司，给的是RSU，不存在有没有钱exercise options的问题，
: 但同样的，给的不可能多，我觉得和拿到一个好的goog offer差不多。
: Square去年给的还是options，今年不知道是RSU还是options。但我感觉那里似乎有点
: 问题，看看那里executives的turn over rate就知道了。
:
: a
|
|
|
x*****u
发帖数: 4750 | 51 zeze zeze 你懂得
【在 m*******i 的大作中提到】
: sorry, forgot to include Facebook
|
s*****m
发帖数: 8094 | 52 尺寸不是问题，it公司不必其他公司，发达起来可以很疯狂，死起来也可以异常痛快。
【在 m*******i 的大作中提到】
: Twitter is there to stay. It is NOT a small company!
: it is not even a startup any more
|
h****u
发帖数: 102 | 53 那些做Ads的公司怎么样？比如quantcast，好像也还不错啊。 |
p*****u
发帖数: 188 | 54 Both Square and Dropbox are half way to 10B now.....
【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: Consider Netflix with 30M paid users is now valued around 10B.
: Other than Twitter, I don't think startups like pinterest, square and
: dropbox is anywhere close to 10B valuation.
|
p*****u
发帖数: 188 | 55 For average people, "average win" is already good enough. Good tradeoff
between risk and return.
Don't understand what you mean by "You can hardly exercise your options
because of the high tax."
To exercise your options, you need some cash = # of shares x strike price.
You don't need to pay tax
until you sell your shares. Right?
a
【在 r********n 的大作中提到】
: Following the crowd can only give you above average win. To win big, you
: need to follow the few extra smart guys, not a big smart group.
: Donot understand it makes any money sense to join in Facebook right now no
: matter how high its perceived eng value is. Dropbox and Square stock value
: are already very high. You can hardly exercise your options because of the
: high tax. The same with Twitter, you can just be trapped there before
: cashing out. Plus they cannot give you many shares. Valuation around 1B is a
: golden point to join: you get many shares and you can exercise and leave
: the company for your own passion later on, and pay long term tax.
: Pinterest and Flipboard could be good startups too. But the former sounds
|
f******2
发帖数: 2455 | 56 楼主在讨论average win是多少才值得的问题呀
【在 p*****u 的大作中提到】
: For average people, "average win" is already good enough. Good tradeoff
: between risk and return.
: Don't understand what you mean by "You can hardly exercise your options
: because of the high tax."
: To exercise your options, you need some cash = # of shares x strike price.
: You don't need to pay tax
: until you sell your shares. Right?
:
: a
|
m*******i
发帖数: 8711 | 57 the stock value equals your salary every year
【在 f******2 的大作中提到】
: 楼主在讨论average win是多少才值得的问题呀
|
f******2
发帖数: 2455 | 58 如果真那样就不太值了，在Google啥的混混，弄个小25，6万。
在twitter拼死拼活地干，一年15万base，再搞个15万的paper value，性价比不高。
【在 m*******i 的大作中提到】
: the stock value equals your salary every year
|
i**p
发帖数: 940 | 59 然，但twitter据说是一个比goog还轻松的地方，就是commute比较讨厌。
现在要想发大财，得去当founder或者碰运气到startup当前5-10号员工。要想发中财，
得去valuation 1B一下但增长很好商业模式也比较清晰得地方混。twitter就是个和FLG
差不了多少得地方。
【在 f******2 的大作中提到】
: 如果真那样就不太值了，在Google啥的混混，弄个小25，6万。
: 在twitter拼死拼活地干，一年15万base，再搞个15万的paper value，性价比不高。
|
m*******i
发帖数: 8711 | 60 twitter is not that busy at all |
|
|
m*******i
发帖数: 8711 | 61 现在startup valuation都很高。基本没有增长高，商业模式清晰，而valuation只在1B
的 |
y*c
发帖数: 904 | |
h****n
发帖数: 2094 | 63 twitter上市后的话应该也会发奖金股票的吧，比如fb现在就都有了，这样的话和照你
说的google的25-26万（不过google 难道不是30万？ ）差得不是很多了，再加上15万
的股票，那就比google多不少了。
【在 f******2 的大作中提到】
: 如果真那样就不太值了，在Google啥的混混，弄个小25，6万。
: 在twitter拼死拼活地干，一年15万base，再搞个15万的paper value，性价比不高。
|
p*****u
发帖数: 310 | 64 能不能谈谈BOX？面试是我见过最难的，package好像远不如twitter，HR倒是挺殷勤的
。 |
P***t
发帖数: 1006 | 65 Your picture seems too rosy. :)
【在 m*******i 的大作中提到】
: it was 16/share when it was at 8B valuation, assume 3x-4x up side (20B to
: 30B), 20k shares will worth 1.2M, like I guessed
|
m**m
发帖数: 5500 | 66 小黑屋难道不是湾区最高奋斗目标嘛，那么容易解决？
【在 B********r 的大作中提到】
: 就是解决个小黑屋就行
|
m*******i
发帖数: 8711 | 67 not at all, it will come out of the gate at 15B.
【在 P***t 的大作中提到】
: Your picture seems too rosy. :)
|
