s*****w
发帖数: 1017 | 1 一个偏小将的民主观
最近两个月才开始关注菌斑，发现自己应该被归类为小将。作为一个交流的平台，想写
篇文章阐述一下一个80后的偏小将对于民主的看法（当然，一个人的观点也是在不断的
在改变和升级的，不同的阶段而已）。中国现在虽然经济发展不错，但是社会问题太多
，没有民主保护，走错一步就有可能前功尽弃。
也许有很多地方不成熟，欢迎理性和平的讨论拍砖。
本人从小接受tg洗脑，不过政治倾向一直比较中庸。本科毕业以后出国，从一个还行的
学校到一个还行的学校念理工科phd，从此呼吸着民主的空气。所以应该和买买提版上
相当数量的人经历类似吧。个人背景仅仅是一个参考。
理论上的民主和专制
很多时候，彼此攻击对方的观点是因为双方对于核心词汇的理解是不一样的。在本文中
，绝对民主是指对于涉及自己的公共事务，严格意义上的一人一票；而绝对的专制则相
反，少数人甚至几个人决定大部分事务。所以绝对的民主和专制是处理事务方法的两极
，根本上不具有褒贬色彩，任何国家都是在两个极端之间。专制很简单，金胖在上，大
权军队在手，一层压一层。而民主在操作中，为了方便统治和提升行政效率，任何国家
都会选一些所谓的议员或者代表，来代替基层民众行使形式上的对于具体事务的投票权
，所以民主又可以具体纵向分为基层民主和高层民主。基层民主是指民众对于市这一级
的议员或者代表的影响力，而高层民主是对于掌管国家的几个人的影响力。
以下一切都是以中国的利益为出发点。那些持其它护照的，屁股坐的地方就不一样，内
心深处是不是想让中国好，还得打个问号。当然，也不排除大量的爱国华人存在。以下
以问答形式阐述
0）民主的目的是什么
高层民主的目的是做出正确的大决策，基层民主的目的是代表民众利益，同时监督基层
官员。民主本身并不是民主的目的，如果民主会让一个国家变糟，不如不民主。随着发
展，中国现在的形势是高层民主还行，基层民主很糟。
1）美国民主还是中国民主？
废话，当然美国民主，这还用争论么？虽然美国的所谓民主也是被米犹阉割的，但比tg
还是好一点。Tg有民主的形式，但是民众民主意识比较差，再加上很多东西都是台面下
的，地方的人大代表也没啥权，还是“官”比较实惠。中国需要向美国学习真正民主，
这也是要成为一个大国长治久安需要做到的一点。
2）那美国说中国不民主为什么小将不高兴？
因为美国说中国不民主不是为了帮助中国改善民主环境，而是为了take China down。
独轮运天天骂中国，不是为了中国好，而是乐于看到中国垮。美国不愧是大国，智商比
独轮运不知道高到哪里去了，能派出香蕉人当大使，和民众谈笑风生！但是他始终是代
表美国的利益，任何一个崛起的大国对于美国国家利益不利，用脚趾头也想的明白。带
路党以为中国顺了美国的意，就能成为其代理人，最好能成为美国的一个州。别逗了，
中国要真的顺了美国的意，第一步就是拆分中国成几个国家，然后分而治之，也许资本
家和沿海几个城市能发展的不错，但是在共同富裕方面估计比现在还不如，大概也就相
当于一个分裂以后的印度。
总之一句话，一个富强和统一的政权对美国极不利，不管你是欧盟，苏联还是中国，美
国都必须整垮他们。
3）爱国和爱党是两回事，你懂么？
当然懂，这就相当于爱家和爱家里的管家是两码事一样。这个管家原来是建筑队的，趁
另一个建筑队和敌人火拼壮大自己，最后夺得了这个房子的建筑权。在成管家之后，做
得有对也有错，得罪了不少人。78年之后管的还不错，把房子越装潢越好了。虽然也产
生了非常多的其它问题，但是从世界这30年的管家从业经历来看，他的管家成果在管家
界还是值得一提的。
有没有想过换个管家？换了管家，房子就变得更好了？要换管家，换谁？你能找到个新
管家那么熟悉家里每个人的生活习惯么？目前来说，解决问题是主要任务。要是哪一天
这个管家犯了大错，惹了全家的众怒，不用我们说，全家人也会赶他走的。
4）民主是不是好的？
这个还真不一定。民主和专制只是管理方式的两极，并没有好坏之分，这得看情况。一
个简单的道理，如果家里有两个老人，两个成年人，3个青少年，家里的大事应该一人
一票决定还是主要由两个成年人决定？同样，让那些平均年龄只有23-25岁的北非国家
投票，那些群众懂啥，能选出个啥？要是1948年中国举行绝对公正的全民选举，90%的
农民不都欢欣鼓舞，tg绝对压倒性胜利阿。
5）民主有什么不好？
民主缺点太多了。首先，对于正确的决定，民主的效率低；其次，选举花费巨大，基本
上和维稳费用在一个量级；再次，选举需要财团资助，上台后基本上要出卖更多的利益
给财团，共和党上台必然给军火商上供啊；最后，民主的结果是大部分人眼前的利益，
可能会忽视少数人的，或者长远的利益。还有很多，可以慢慢举。
待续 |
j****n
发帖数: 7636 | 2 要是哪一天这个管家犯了大错，惹了全家的众怒，不用我们说，全家人也会赶他走的??
???
democracy just provides a peaceful way to make this possible.
【在 s*****w 的大作中提到】
: 一个偏小将的民主观
: 最近两个月才开始关注菌斑，发现自己应该被归类为小将。作为一个交流的平台，想写
: 篇文章阐述一下一个80后的偏小将对于民主的看法（当然，一个人的观点也是在不断的
: 在改变和升级的，不同的阶段而已）。中国现在虽然经济发展不错，但是社会问题太多
: ，没有民主保护，走错一步就有可能前功尽弃。
: 也许有很多地方不成熟，欢迎理性和平的讨论拍砖。
: 本人从小接受tg洗脑，不过政治倾向一直比较中庸。本科毕业以后出国，从一个还行的
: 学校到一个还行的学校念理工科phd，从此呼吸着民主的空气。所以应该和买买提版上
: 相当数量的人经历类似吧。个人背景仅仅是一个参考。
: 理论上的民主和专制
|
x****u
发帖数: 44466 | 3 哪个华尔街老板被赶走了？
??
【在 j****n 的大作中提到】
: 要是哪一天这个管家犯了大错，惹了全家的众怒，不用我们说，全家人也会赶他走的??
: ???
: democracy just provides a peaceful way to make this possible.
|
j****n
发帖数: 7636 | 4 so many ... And it is orange vs apple.
【在 x****u 的大作中提到】
: 哪个华尔街老板被赶走了？
:
: ??
|
x****u
发帖数: 44466 | 5 挟巨款退休不算赶走。。。
【在 j****n 的大作中提到】
: so many ... And it is orange vs apple.
|
j****n
发帖数: 7636 | 6 That is your definition. And it is irrelevant to LZ's topic. No one said
that shere should be democracy in a company.
【在 x****u 的大作中提到】
: 挟巨款退休不算赶走。。。
|
x****u
发帖数: 44466 | 7 OK，携巨款退休也是被赶走的。
【在 j****n 的大作中提到】
: That is your definition. And it is irrelevant to LZ's topic. No one said
: that shere should be democracy in a company.
|
j****n
发帖数: 7636 | 8 That is your definition. And it is irrelevant to LZ's topic. No one said
that shere should be democracy in a company.
【在 x****u 的大作中提到】
: OK，携巨款退休也是被赶走的。
|
I******a
发帖数: 3812 | 9 Oh believe me, lots of people said it before, they are fired.
【在 j****n 的大作中提到】
: That is your definition. And it is irrelevant to LZ's topic. No one said
: that shere should be democracy in a company.
|
j****n
发帖数: 7636 | 10 who said what and fired by whom?
【在 I******a 的大作中提到】
: Oh believe me, lots of people said it before, they are fired.
|
|
|
O*******d
发帖数: 20343 | 11 民主有优点，但缺点也是非常多，并且是不可克服的。 |
d*****n
发帖数: 331 | |
L*********d
发帖数: 7037 | 13 你展开说说
【在 O*******d 的大作中提到】
: 民主有优点，但缺点也是非常多，并且是不可克服的。
|
d*****n
发帖数: 331 | 14
??
但也不表明中国的管家以后就无法peaceful地交接
【在 j****n 的大作中提到】
: 要是哪一天这个管家犯了大错，惹了全家的众怒，不用我们说，全家人也会赶他走的??
: ???
: democracy just provides a peaceful way to make this possible.
|
j****n
发帖数: 7636 | 15 Maybe you are right. NO one knows future for sure.
But so far, the history tells a different story.
【在 d*****n 的大作中提到】
:
: ??
: 但也不表明中国的管家以后就无法peaceful地交接
|
O*******d
发帖数: 20343 | 16 美国的国会就是活生生的例子。
【在 L*********d 的大作中提到】
: 你展开说说
|
L*********d
发帖数: 7037 | 17 美国国会这个民主的活生生的例子的优点和非常多的、不可克服的缺点都是啥
【在 O*******d 的大作中提到】
: 美国的国会就是活生生的例子。
|
I******a
发帖数: 3812 | 18 Says people, fired by bosses.
You can Google "fired journalists" right?
【在 j****n 的大作中提到】
: who said what and fired by whom?
|
f*****g
发帖数: 3197 | 19 本中将告诉你，写得不错。基本抓住了现下国际“民主”矛盾的本质。说白了，民主是一种约束官僚特别是基础官僚的手段，民主要逐步搞，但一定是中国人自己搞。而且，多党制是毒药，是让带路党合法化的歧途。
【在 s*****w 的大作中提到】
: 一个偏小将的民主观
: 最近两个月才开始关注菌斑，发现自己应该被归类为小将。作为一个交流的平台，想写
: 篇文章阐述一下一个80后的偏小将对于民主的看法（当然，一个人的观点也是在不断的
: 在改变和升级的，不同的阶段而已）。中国现在虽然经济发展不错，但是社会问题太多
: ，没有民主保护，走错一步就有可能前功尽弃。
: 也许有很多地方不成熟，欢迎理性和平的讨论拍砖。
: 本人从小接受tg洗脑，不过政治倾向一直比较中庸。本科毕业以后出国，从一个还行的
: 学校到一个还行的学校念理工科phd，从此呼吸着民主的空气。所以应该和买买提版上
: 相当数量的人经历类似吧。个人背景仅仅是一个参考。
: 理论上的民主和专制
|
j****n
发帖数: 7636 | 20 Just googled, it seems nothing related to what you are talking about which I
still don't know.
What do you mean "says people?"
【在 I******a 的大作中提到】
: Says people, fired by bosses.
: You can Google "fired journalists" right?
|
|
|
I******a
发帖数: 3812 | 21 Yeah you don't see the sun around this time do you, therefore it does not
exist.
I
【在 j****n 的大作中提到】
: Just googled, it seems nothing related to what you are talking about which I
: still don't know.
: What do you mean "says people?"
|
j****n
发帖数: 7636 | 22 I am just asking you what you mean.
Do you think that you are the sun and I should see you as clearly as the sun
? If so, I don't need ask you anymore. Heehee.
【在 I******a 的大作中提到】
: Yeah you don't see the sun around this time do you, therefore it does not
: exist.
:
: I
|
I******a
发帖数: 3812 | 23 Look, even if you are fresh off the boat, you must have heard of Corporate
America right?
Do you translate that into an autocratic democracy or democratic autocracy?
sun
【在 j****n 的大作中提到】
: I am just asking you what you mean.
: Do you think that you are the sun and I should see you as clearly as the sun
: ? If so, I don't need ask you anymore. Heehee.
|
j****n
发帖数: 7636 | 24 I have heard neither of these translations. They don't make any sense to me.
You may have better idea?
【在 I******a 的大作中提到】
: Look, even if you are fresh off the boat, you must have heard of Corporate
: America right?
: Do you translate that into an autocratic democracy or democratic autocracy?
:
: sun
|
I******a
发帖数: 3812 | 25 You said this: "No one said that there should be democracy in a company."
And that's the same as saying "No one said that there should be democracy in
Corporate America"
It makes no sense to you right? to me neither.
me.
【在 j****n 的大作中提到】
: I have heard neither of these translations. They don't make any sense to me.
: You may have better idea?
|
j****n
发帖数: 7636 | 26 I see your point. Still it seems to me it is just word game...
I "guess" most people know the difference between a political system of a
country and that within a corporation/company.
There is no need to argue further. Thanks for your explanation.
in
【在 I******a 的大作中提到】
: You said this: "No one said that there should be democracy in a company."
: And that's the same as saying "No one said that there should be democracy in
: Corporate America"
: It makes no sense to you right? to me neither.
:
: me.
|
s********n
发帖数: 26222 | 27 可造之才，分析得不错，希望继续在军版深造，哈哈
【在 s*****w 的大作中提到】
: 一个偏小将的民主观
: 最近两个月才开始关注菌斑，发现自己应该被归类为小将。作为一个交流的平台，想写
: 篇文章阐述一下一个80后的偏小将对于民主的看法（当然，一个人的观点也是在不断的
: 在改变和升级的，不同的阶段而已）。中国现在虽然经济发展不错，但是社会问题太多
: ，没有民主保护，走错一步就有可能前功尽弃。
: 也许有很多地方不成熟，欢迎理性和平的讨论拍砖。
: 本人从小接受tg洗脑，不过政治倾向一直比较中庸。本科毕业以后出国，从一个还行的
: 学校到一个还行的学校念理工科phd，从此呼吸着民主的空气。所以应该和买买提版上
: 相当数量的人经历类似吧。个人背景仅仅是一个参考。
: 理论上的民主和专制
|
I******a
发帖数: 3812 | 28 Well you are now in fact arguing the void of overlap between the two, and
that's up against the very reference of Corporate America itself.
If Uncle Sam's business is so much different from a business, then it must
have been very stupid for the American people to link these two together
right?
I can see it does seem to be a word game for YOU. After all.
【在 j****n 的大作中提到】
: I see your point. Still it seems to me it is just word game...
: I "guess" most people know the difference between a political system of a
: country and that within a corporation/company.
: There is no need to argue further. Thanks for your explanation.
:
: in
|
s********n
发帖数: 26222 | 29 中国民主的双重标准
作者：smokinggun
对内容忍左中右不同意见的阶层，建立维护中国国家国民民族利益的民主形式；对外，
严厉打击任何危害中国国家国民民族利益的敌对分子，包括恐怖分子，独运轮， NED/
CIA 破坏分子和敌对国家势力。
这就是中国民主的双重标准。 |
L*********d
发帖数: 7037 | 30 Corporate America根本不是指政治制度说的
其实 Corporate 里也有民主，叫 board room democracy，是按股份不是按人头计票而已
【在 I******a 的大作中提到】
: Well you are now in fact arguing the void of overlap between the two, and
: that's up against the very reference of Corporate America itself.
: If Uncle Sam's business is so much different from a business, then it must
: have been very stupid for the American people to link these two together
: right?
: I can see it does seem to be a word game for YOU. After all.
|
|
|
j****n
发帖数: 7636 | 31 I understand that you seriouly believe that Since there is not much
democracy within most american companies (almost everyone having working
experience here would agree if we are not talking about board et al.), USA as country must be autocracy since another name of USA is Corporate America.
Most of the disagreemt in a debate often is caused by some fundemental
differences in "axiom" systems, to which people simply believe without much
reasonings as religion. We can see so much examples on the board from Lao
Jiang and Xiao Jiang.
I think we reached that point. I simply can not agree with your argument: it
is just absurd in my opinion, even though maybe you are right. There is no
point to argue more.
【在 I******a 的大作中提到】
: Well you are now in fact arguing the void of overlap between the two, and
: that's up against the very reference of Corporate America itself.
: If Uncle Sam's business is so much different from a business, then it must
: have been very stupid for the American people to link these two together
: right?
: I can see it does seem to be a word game for YOU. After all.
|
I******a
发帖数: 3812 | 32 那人说公司没民主，又不是我说的。
而已
【在 L*********d 的大作中提到】
: Corporate America根本不是指政治制度说的
: 其实 Corporate 里也有民主，叫 board room democracy，是按股份不是按人头计票而已
|
j****n
发帖数: 7636 | 33 All I said is that company vs a country is apple vs orange.
Company does not and can not have the kind of democracy of a country.
【在 I******a 的大作中提到】
: 那人说公司没民主，又不是我说的。
:
: 而已
|
I******a
发帖数: 3812 | 34 Showing you your own conclusory statement leads to absurd results, is not a
belief at all.
YOU believe "corporate democracy is unheard of", not me.
as country must be autocracy since another name of USA is Corporate America.
much
it
no
【在 j****n 的大作中提到】
: I understand that you seriouly believe that Since there is not much
: democracy within most american companies (almost everyone having working
: experience here would agree if we are not talking about board et al.), USA as country must be autocracy since another name of USA is Corporate America.
: Most of the disagreemt in a debate often is caused by some fundemental
: differences in "axiom" systems, to which people simply believe without much
: reasonings as religion. We can see so much examples on the board from Lao
: Jiang and Xiao Jiang.
: I think we reached that point. I simply can not agree with your argument: it
: is just absurd in my opinion, even though maybe you are right. There is no
: point to argue more.
|
I******a
发帖数: 3812 | 35 Sure, Apples are run by Martians whereas Oranges are run by Lemurians right?
【在 j****n 的大作中提到】
: All I said is that company vs a country is apple vs orange.
: Company does not and can not have the kind of democracy of a country.
|
L*********d
发帖数: 7037 | 36 你没享受上民主是因为你是 employee，不是 owner。跟你不是美国公民不能投票是一
个意思
as country must be autocracy since another name of USA is Corporate America.
much
it
no
【在 j****n 的大作中提到】
: I understand that you seriouly believe that Since there is not much
: democracy within most american companies (almost everyone having working
: experience here would agree if we are not talking about board et al.), USA as country must be autocracy since another name of USA is Corporate America.
: Most of the disagreemt in a debate often is caused by some fundemental
: differences in "axiom" systems, to which people simply believe without much
: reasonings as religion. We can see so much examples on the board from Lao
: Jiang and Xiao Jiang.
: I think we reached that point. I simply can not agree with your argument: it
: is just absurd in my opinion, even though maybe you are right. There is no
: point to argue more.
|
j****n
发帖数: 7636 | 37 Whatever... I would say absurd logic can lead to anything.
I don't think you understand my statement and you have never revealed yours
explicitly. What is your point?
Is american company democratic?
Is american political system democratic?
Are these two the same?
America.
【在 I******a 的大作中提到】
: Showing you your own conclusory statement leads to absurd results, is not a
: belief at all.
: YOU believe "corporate democracy is unheard of", not me.
:
: as country must be autocracy since another name of USA is Corporate America.
: much
: it
: no
|
s********n
发帖数: 26222 | 38 US democracy is belonging to Jewish billionares,bankers and warlords. To all
other american people, US democracy is a "make-believe" illusion which
never existed. |
j****n
发帖数: 7636 | 39 Well, I just think american company and a country are fundmentally different.
If you really want to argue, then the difference is that in a corporation
board, the voting weight depends on the amount of shares. If a country, all the votes should be the same... If the company is private, the owner family can do whatever to the company.
I don't think that is the democracy we normally talking about.
America.
【在 L*********d 的大作中提到】
: 你没享受上民主是因为你是 employee，不是 owner。跟你不是美国公民不能投票是一
: 个意思
:
: as country must be autocracy since another name of USA is Corporate America.
: much
: it
: no
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I******a
发帖数: 3812 | 40 Nothing, kid. I just had a little fun, now I gotta go.
I have no intention of having to do with YOUR belief.
yours
【在 j****n 的大作中提到】
: Whatever... I would say absurd logic can lead to anything.
: I don't think you understand my statement and you have never revealed yours
: explicitly. What is your point?
: Is american company democratic?
: Is american political system democratic?
: Are these two the same?
:
: America.
|
|
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L*********d
发帖数: 7037 | 41 这不是我刚说的吗，你给翻译成英文再说给我听？
你们俩论了半天，也没看出你到底想说啥
different.
votes
【在 j****n 的大作中提到】
: Well, I just think american company and a country are fundmentally different.
: If you really want to argue, then the difference is that in a corporation
: board, the voting weight depends on the amount of shares. If a country, all the votes should be the same... If the company is private, the owner family can do whatever to the company.
: I don't think that is the democracy we normally talking about.
:
: America.
|
j****n
发帖数: 7636 | 42 Sure thing. What can you do even you want?
【在 I******a 的大作中提到】
: Nothing, kid. I just had a little fun, now I gotta go.
: I have no intention of having to do with YOUR belief.
:
: yours
|
j****n
发帖数: 7636 | 43 OK, Let's start from beginning:
LZ: If TG do a very bad job in future, people can take over.
I: Democracy is a way to do it peacefully
XiaoJ: Did any wall street boss were taken over in US?
I: Yes
XiaoJ: They went with a lot of money.
I: Yes, they are still in trouble and no one said a company should have
democracy.
Alpha started to argue... It seems to me that he was trying to say that
american company and US goverment must both democratic or both autocratic
since there is a word "Corporate America".
This seems absurd to me... What do you think?
【在 L*********d 的大作中提到】
: 这不是我刚说的吗，你给翻译成英文再说给我听？
: 你们俩论了半天，也没看出你到底想说啥
:
: different.
: votes
|
L*********d
发帖数: 7037 | 44 从小九开始就不明白了。我觉得可能和你说英文有关系。orange 和 apple 是啥意思，
根本不同，还是都是水果？
have
【在 j****n 的大作中提到】
: OK, Let's start from beginning:
: LZ: If TG do a very bad job in future, people can take over.
: I: Democracy is a way to do it peacefully
: XiaoJ: Did any wall street boss were taken over in US?
: I: Yes
: XiaoJ: They went with a lot of money.
: I: Yes, they are still in trouble and no one said a company should have
: democracy.
: Alpha started to argue... It seems to me that he was trying to say that
: american company and US goverment must both democratic or both autocratic
|
j****n
发帖数: 7636 | 45 根本不同
【在 L*********d 的大作中提到】
: 从小九开始就不明白了。我觉得可能和你说英文有关系。orange 和 apple 是啥意思，
: 根本不同，还是都是水果？
:
: have
|
L*********d
发帖数: 7037 | 46 那你还不如直接说呢。总之用英文讨论的最后都是说的不明白，听的不清楚，看的更糊
涂。
【在 j****n 的大作中提到】
: 根本不同
|
j****n
发帖数: 7636 | 47 Probably... Agree.
【在 L*********d 的大作中提到】
: 那你还不如直接说呢。总之用英文讨论的最后都是说的不明白，听的不清楚，看的更糊
: 涂。
|
m**c
发帖数: 192 | 48 你基本不懂什么叫民主 有一个网站叫wikipedia
【在 s*****w 的大作中提到】
: 一个偏小将的民主观
: 最近两个月才开始关注菌斑，发现自己应该被归类为小将。作为一个交流的平台，想写
: 篇文章阐述一下一个80后的偏小将对于民主的看法（当然，一个人的观点也是在不断的
: 在改变和升级的，不同的阶段而已）。中国现在虽然经济发展不错，但是社会问题太多
: ，没有民主保护，走错一步就有可能前功尽弃。
: 也许有很多地方不成熟，欢迎理性和平的讨论拍砖。
: 本人从小接受tg洗脑，不过政治倾向一直比较中庸。本科毕业以后出国，从一个还行的
: 学校到一个还行的学校念理工科phd，从此呼吸着民主的空气。所以应该和买买提版上
: 相当数量的人经历类似吧。个人背景仅仅是一个参考。
: 理论上的民主和专制
|
