s****9
发帖数: 932 | 1 新手上路，以前什么都没有，现在才开始打算。
我和太太的收入都是Fellowship income，没有W-2，没有经过学校的payroll，所以不
符合学校的401K或者403b，询问了之后能够享受的tax retirement福利就只有
Individual retirement account（IRA）。我们都还比较年轻。
问题是：
1）选择的时候，是Roth IRA划算还是traditional IRA。Roth IRA是投资收益免税，
Traditional IRA是本金免税。是不是，如果放10年以上，Roth IRA会比较划算？
2）以前有一部分401K里的钱（大约3000块），能不能transfer到Vanguard？transfer
有没有penalty？
3）如果我们以后回国了，Roth IRA还能不能保留，收益是否还免税？ |
g*****g
发帖数: 34805 | 2 You don't have much income, your tax bracket is so low your tax bracket in
retirement won't likely be lower than this. Take Roth.
transfer
【在 s****9 的大作中提到】
: 新手上路，以前什么都没有，现在才开始打算。
: 我和太太的收入都是Fellowship income，没有W-2，没有经过学校的payroll，所以不
: 符合学校的401K或者403b，询问了之后能够享受的tax retirement福利就只有
: Individual retirement account（IRA）。我们都还比较年轻。
: 问题是：
: 1）选择的时候，是Roth IRA划算还是traditional IRA。Roth IRA是投资收益免税，
: Traditional IRA是本金免税。是不是，如果放10年以上，Roth IRA会比较划算？
: 2）以前有一部分401K里的钱（大约3000块），能不能transfer到Vanguard？transfer
: 有没有penalty？
: 3）如果我们以后回国了，Roth IRA还能不能保留，收益是否还免税？
|
s****9
发帖数: 932 | 3 谢谢指教。
【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: You don't have much income, your tax bracket is so low your tax bracket in
: retirement won't likely be lower than this. Take Roth.
:
: transfer
|
f*******n
发帖数: 12623 | 4
不是。Roth IRA是税后的，就是现在交税。deductible Traditional IRA是税前的，就
是以后交税。哪个好就是看你现在的税率高还是以后的税率高。如果两个税率是一样的
，Roth IRA和deductible Traditional IRA的结果是一样的，无论多少年。
Traditional IRA本金当然不是免税的。
如果你现在收入低，应该Roth IRA比较划算。
transfer
你的意思是rollover到IRA（Traditional或Roth）？当然能。可以问vanguard会有什么
费用
当然能保留。就是一个帐户。
【在 s****9 的大作中提到】
: 新手上路，以前什么都没有，现在才开始打算。
: 我和太太的收入都是Fellowship income，没有W-2，没有经过学校的payroll，所以不
: 符合学校的401K或者403b，询问了之后能够享受的tax retirement福利就只有
: Individual retirement account（IRA）。我们都还比较年轻。
: 问题是：
: 1）选择的时候，是Roth IRA划算还是traditional IRA。Roth IRA是投资收益免税，
: Traditional IRA是本金免税。是不是，如果放10年以上，Roth IRA会比较划算？
: 2）以前有一部分401K里的钱（大约3000块），能不能transfer到Vanguard？transfer
: 有没有penalty？
: 3）如果我们以后回国了，Roth IRA还能不能保留，收益是否还免税？
|
E******w
发帖数: 2616 | 5 这点钱想什么retirement。都留在银行帐户里备用最好。
transfer
【在 s****9 的大作中提到】
: 新手上路，以前什么都没有，现在才开始打算。
: 我和太太的收入都是Fellowship income，没有W-2，没有经过学校的payroll，所以不
: 符合学校的401K或者403b，询问了之后能够享受的tax retirement福利就只有
: Individual retirement account（IRA）。我们都还比较年轻。
: 问题是：
: 1）选择的时候，是Roth IRA划算还是traditional IRA。Roth IRA是投资收益免税，
: Traditional IRA是本金免税。是不是，如果放10年以上，Roth IRA会比较划算？
: 2）以前有一部分401K里的钱（大约3000块），能不能transfer到Vanguard？transfer
: 有没有penalty？
: 3）如果我们以后回国了，Roth IRA还能不能保留，收益是否还免税？
|
f*******n
发帖数: 12623 | 6 也可以留在Roth IRA里备用啊
【在 E******w 的大作中提到】
: 这点钱想什么retirement。都留在银行帐户里备用最好。
:
: transfer
|
r****9
发帖数: 4961 | 7 Roth IRA is always better for any income level. |
f*******n
发帖数: 12623 | 8 No.
【在 r****9 的大作中提到】
: Roth IRA is always better for any income level.
|
E******w
发帖数: 2616 | 9 In fact, Roth IRA is always useless for any income level.
【在 r****9 的大作中提到】
: Roth IRA is always better for any income level.
|
y***j
发帖数: 11235 | 10 zkss？
【在 E******w 的大作中提到】
: In fact, Roth IRA is always useless for any income level.
|
|
|
c**********0
发帖数: 624 | |
r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 12 展一展
【在 E******w 的大作中提到】
: In fact, Roth IRA is always useless for any income level.
|
E******w
发帖数: 2616 | 13 哼，都想吃白食。本青蛙就是不说！
【在 r****m 的大作中提到】
: 展一展
|
s****9
发帖数: 932 | 14 说说吧，给你2个包子（您转给 EmMeadow,现金(伪币):20,收取手续费:0.2）
搬个凳子，听大牛讲学。
【在 E******w 的大作中提到】
: 哼，都想吃白食。本青蛙就是不说！
|
E******w
发帖数: 2616 | 15 为了大家好，本青蛙不能说。首先，不会炒股，根本就不该考虑什么Roth IRA，
Traditional IRA。（至少大部分人把钱放进这些账户都是用来炒股的，或者美其名曰
投资）那些都是把你的钱骗进股市的陷阱。普通账户亏了钱还可以抵税，那些账户亏了
钱连税都抵不了。新手都认为自己会投资，认为钱不放到什么地方增值就亏了。可是股
市里90%的人都是亏的。就算你是MIT博士毕业，你的思路和做法和那些大妈大叔没有什
么区别，结局也肯定不会有什么两样。大部分人买个菜还会斤斤计较，可是几万几十万
的所谓“投资”，即不花时间研究，也不花时间学习基本技巧。最终的结果不过是给华
尔街送钱罢了。本青蛙自己也是这么过来的，把将近十年的积蓄都亏光了。现在虽然稳
住了阵脚，但是实在觉得不应该忽悠大家进股市。
总之，做为新手，别总觉得拿着cash很亏。实际上cash进了股市亏得更厉害。别听别人
忽悠什么“年轻，可以take moderate risk”。一边象狗一样地给老板干活，一边象傻
子一样把血汗钱送给华尔街。要是真能想明白这是多么愚蠢的行为，恐怕你都不好意思
说你读过博士。其次，如果想花时间和精力学习，开个普通账户用点小钱先学好技术。
或者学习别的投资也一样。别想着省税。等你先学会了赚钱，再想其他的不迟。
【在 s****9 的大作中提到】
: 说说吧，给你2个包子（您转给 EmMeadow,现金(伪币):20,收取手续费:0.2）
: 搬个凳子，听大牛讲学。
|
y***j
发帖数: 11235 | 16 Roth IRA一年才5000快么？开个roth ira存CD行不？另外不折腾定投SPY和MDY行不？
【在 E******w 的大作中提到】
: 为了大家好，本青蛙不能说。首先，不会炒股，根本就不该考虑什么Roth IRA，
: Traditional IRA。（至少大部分人把钱放进这些账户都是用来炒股的，或者美其名曰
: 投资）那些都是把你的钱骗进股市的陷阱。普通账户亏了钱还可以抵税，那些账户亏了
: 钱连税都抵不了。新手都认为自己会投资，认为钱不放到什么地方增值就亏了。可是股
: 市里90%的人都是亏的。就算你是MIT博士毕业，你的思路和做法和那些大妈大叔没有什
: 么区别，结局也肯定不会有什么两样。大部分人买个菜还会斤斤计较，可是几万几十万
: 的所谓“投资”，即不花时间研究，也不花时间学习基本技巧。最终的结果不过是给华
: 尔街送钱罢了。本青蛙自己也是这么过来的，把将近十年的积蓄都亏光了。现在虽然稳
: 住了阵脚，但是实在觉得不应该忽悠大家进股市。
: 总之，做为新手，别总觉得拿着cash很亏。实际上cash进了股市亏得更厉害。别听别人
|
E******w
发帖数: 2616 | 17 存定期可以，但是这样开不开Roth IRA区别就不大了。而且，如果你需要买房买车，一
边存定期，一边用银行贷款买房，这也是不合算的。总之我觉得不开Roth IRA更合理一
些。
【在 y***j 的大作中提到】
: Roth IRA一年才5000快么？开个roth ira存CD行不？另外不折腾定投SPY和MDY行不？
|
c**********0
发帖数: 624 | 18 research shows people with higher IQ and financial literacy level prefer
Roth |
f*******n
发帖数: 12623 | 19 当然有区别。在外面存定期要交两次税。在Roth IRA存定期只要交一次税。
【在 E******w 的大作中提到】
: 存定期可以，但是这样开不开Roth IRA区别就不大了。而且，如果你需要买房买车，一
: 边存定期，一边用银行贷款买房，这也是不合算的。总之我觉得不开Roth IRA更合理一
: 些。
|
r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 20 太极端点了吧?
为什么不把 roth ira 钱放在指数基金里面呢? 从长远来看, 股市还是往上走的啊. |
|
|
r****9
发帖数: 4961 | 21 thank you.
【在 c**********0 的大作中提到】
: research shows people with higher IQ and financial literacy level prefer
: Roth
|
r*******y
发帖数: 290 | 22 Roth and traditional IRA makes big differences in the long term
The difference is the reinvestment and tax delay of the dividend yield
If you have sufficient funds to invest in your personal account,
you should select ROTH.
【在 c**********0 的大作中提到】
: research shows people with higher IQ and financial literacy level prefer
: Roth
|
f*******n
发帖数: 12623 | 23 There is no difference between short term and long term. The only difference
is between your tax rate now and your tax rate when you take it out.
【在 r*******y 的大作中提到】
: Roth and traditional IRA makes big differences in the long term
: The difference is the reinvestment and tax delay of the dividend yield
: If you have sufficient funds to invest in your personal account,
: you should select ROTH.
|
r****9
发帖数: 4961 | 24 roth is almost always better.
【在 f*******n 的大作中提到】
: There is no difference between short term and long term. The only difference
: is between your tax rate now and your tax rate when you take it out.
|
r*******y
发帖数: 290 | 25 As I said, there is a difference! and the difference is on the dividend
yield
This difference is small in 5 years, but could be 10% or more in 10years
difference
【在 f*******n 的大作中提到】
: There is no difference between short term and long term. The only difference
: is between your tax rate now and your tax rate when you take it out.
|
l******g
发帖数: 6771 | 26 zkss?
【在 r*******y 的大作中提到】
: As I said, there is a difference! and the difference is on the dividend
: yield
: This difference is small in 5 years, but could be 10% or more in 10years
:
: difference
|
f*******n
发帖数: 12623 | 27 No there is not. Even if it was 100 years, if the rate at which you are
taxed now and you are taxed when you take it out are the same, there is *
absolutely no difference*.
【在 r*******y 的大作中提到】
: As I said, there is a difference! and the difference is on the dividend
: yield
: This difference is small in 5 years, but could be 10% or more in 10years
:
: difference
|
l******g
发帖数: 6771 | 28 but that's a big if
【在 f*******n 的大作中提到】
: No there is not. Even if it was 100 years, if the rate at which you are
: taxed now and you are taxed when you take it out are the same, there is *
: absolutely no difference*.
|
r****9
发帖数: 4961 | 29 even in that case, Roth is almost always better.
【在 f*******n 的大作中提到】
: No there is not. Even if it was 100 years, if the rate at which you are
: taxed now and you are taxed when you take it out are the same, there is *
: absolutely no difference*.
|
s****9
发帖数: 932 | 30 新手上路，以前什么都没有，现在才开始打算。
我和太太的收入都是Fellowship income，没有W-2，没有经过学校的payroll，所以不
符合学校的401K或者403b，询问了之后能够享受的tax retirement福利就只有
Individual retirement account（IRA）。我们都还比较年轻。
问题是：
1）选择的时候，是Roth IRA划算还是traditional IRA。Roth IRA是投资收益免税，
Traditional IRA是本金免税。是不是，如果放10年以上，Roth IRA会比较划算？
2）以前有一部分401K里的钱（大约3000块），能不能transfer到Vanguard？transfer
有没有penalty？
3）如果我们以后回国了，Roth IRA还能不能保留，收益是否还免税？ |
|
|
g*****g
发帖数: 34805 | 31 You don't have much income, your tax bracket is so low your tax bracket in
retirement won't likely be lower than this. Take Roth.
transfer
【在 s****9 的大作中提到】
: 新手上路，以前什么都没有，现在才开始打算。
: 我和太太的收入都是Fellowship income，没有W-2，没有经过学校的payroll，所以不
: 符合学校的401K或者403b，询问了之后能够享受的tax retirement福利就只有
: Individual retirement account（IRA）。我们都还比较年轻。
: 问题是：
: 1）选择的时候，是Roth IRA划算还是traditional IRA。Roth IRA是投资收益免税，
: Traditional IRA是本金免税。是不是，如果放10年以上，Roth IRA会比较划算？
: 2）以前有一部分401K里的钱（大约3000块），能不能transfer到Vanguard？transfer
: 有没有penalty？
: 3）如果我们以后回国了，Roth IRA还能不能保留，收益是否还免税？
|
s****9
发帖数: 932 | 32 谢谢指教。
【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: You don't have much income, your tax bracket is so low your tax bracket in
: retirement won't likely be lower than this. Take Roth.
:
: transfer
|
f*******n
发帖数: 12623 | 33
不是。Roth IRA是税后的，就是现在交税。deductible Traditional IRA是税前的，就
是以后交税。哪个好就是看你现在的税率高还是以后的税率高。如果两个税率是一样的
，Roth IRA和deductible Traditional IRA的结果是一样的，无论多少年。
Traditional IRA本金当然不是免税的。
如果你现在收入低，应该Roth IRA比较划算。
transfer
你的意思是rollover到IRA（Traditional或Roth）？当然能。可以问vanguard会有什么
费用
当然能保留。就是一个帐户。
【在 s****9 的大作中提到】
: 新手上路，以前什么都没有，现在才开始打算。
: 我和太太的收入都是Fellowship income，没有W-2，没有经过学校的payroll，所以不
: 符合学校的401K或者403b，询问了之后能够享受的tax retirement福利就只有
: Individual retirement account（IRA）。我们都还比较年轻。
: 问题是：
: 1）选择的时候，是Roth IRA划算还是traditional IRA。Roth IRA是投资收益免税，
: Traditional IRA是本金免税。是不是，如果放10年以上，Roth IRA会比较划算？
: 2）以前有一部分401K里的钱（大约3000块），能不能transfer到Vanguard？transfer
: 有没有penalty？
: 3）如果我们以后回国了，Roth IRA还能不能保留，收益是否还免税？
|
E******w
发帖数: 2616 | 34 这点钱想什么retirement。都留在银行帐户里备用最好。
transfer
【在 s****9 的大作中提到】
: 新手上路，以前什么都没有，现在才开始打算。
: 我和太太的收入都是Fellowship income，没有W-2，没有经过学校的payroll，所以不
: 符合学校的401K或者403b，询问了之后能够享受的tax retirement福利就只有
: Individual retirement account（IRA）。我们都还比较年轻。
: 问题是：
: 1）选择的时候，是Roth IRA划算还是traditional IRA。Roth IRA是投资收益免税，
: Traditional IRA是本金免税。是不是，如果放10年以上，Roth IRA会比较划算？
: 2）以前有一部分401K里的钱（大约3000块），能不能transfer到Vanguard？transfer
: 有没有penalty？
: 3）如果我们以后回国了，Roth IRA还能不能保留，收益是否还免税？
|
f*******n
发帖数: 12623 | 35 也可以留在Roth IRA里备用啊
【在 E******w 的大作中提到】
: 这点钱想什么retirement。都留在银行帐户里备用最好。
:
: transfer
|
r****9
发帖数: 4961 | 36 Roth IRA is always better for any income level. |
f*******n
发帖数: 12623 | 37 No.
【在 r****9 的大作中提到】
: Roth IRA is always better for any income level.
|
E******w
发帖数: 2616 | 38 In fact, Roth IRA is always useless for any income level.
【在 r****9 的大作中提到】
: Roth IRA is always better for any income level.
|
y***j
发帖数: 11235 | 39 zkss？
【在 E******w 的大作中提到】
: In fact, Roth IRA is always useless for any income level.
|
c**********0
发帖数: 624 | |
|
|
r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 41 展一展
【在 E******w 的大作中提到】
: In fact, Roth IRA is always useless for any income level.
|
E******w
发帖数: 2616 | 42 哼，都想吃白食。本青蛙就是不说！
【在 r****m 的大作中提到】
: 展一展
|
s****9
发帖数: 932 | 43 说说吧，给你2个包子（您转给 EmMeadow,现金(伪币):20,收取手续费:0.2）
搬个凳子，听大牛讲学。
【在 E******w 的大作中提到】
: 哼，都想吃白食。本青蛙就是不说！
|
E******w
发帖数: 2616 | 44 为了大家好，本青蛙不能说。首先，不会炒股，根本就不该考虑什么Roth IRA，
Traditional IRA。（至少大部分人把钱放进这些账户都是用来炒股的，或者美其名曰
投资）那些都是把你的钱骗进股市的陷阱。普通账户亏了钱还可以抵税，那些账户亏了
钱连税都抵不了。新手都认为自己会投资，认为钱不放到什么地方增值就亏了。可是股
市里90%的人都是亏的。就算你是MIT博士毕业，你的思路和做法和那些大妈大叔没有什
么区别，结局也肯定不会有什么两样。大部分人买个菜还会斤斤计较，可是几万几十万
的所谓“投资”，即不花时间研究，也不花时间学习基本技巧。最终的结果不过是给华
尔街送钱罢了。本青蛙自己也是这么过来的，把将近十年的积蓄都亏光了。现在虽然稳
住了阵脚，但是实在觉得不应该忽悠大家进股市。
总之，做为新手，别总觉得拿着cash很亏。实际上cash进了股市亏得更厉害。别听别人
忽悠什么“年轻，可以take moderate risk”。一边象狗一样地给老板干活，一边象傻
子一样把血汗钱送给华尔街。要是真能想明白这是多么愚蠢的行为，恐怕你都不好意思
说你读过博士。其次，如果想花时间和精力学习，开个普通账户用点小钱先学好技术。
或者学习别的投资也一样。别想着省税。等你先学会了赚钱，再想其他的不迟。
【在 s****9 的大作中提到】
: 说说吧，给你2个包子（您转给 EmMeadow,现金(伪币):20,收取手续费:0.2）
: 搬个凳子，听大牛讲学。
|
y***j
发帖数: 11235 | 45 Roth IRA一年才5000快么？开个roth ira存CD行不？另外不折腾定投SPY和MDY行不？
【在 E******w 的大作中提到】
: 为了大家好，本青蛙不能说。首先，不会炒股，根本就不该考虑什么Roth IRA，
: Traditional IRA。（至少大部分人把钱放进这些账户都是用来炒股的，或者美其名曰
: 投资）那些都是把你的钱骗进股市的陷阱。普通账户亏了钱还可以抵税，那些账户亏了
: 钱连税都抵不了。新手都认为自己会投资，认为钱不放到什么地方增值就亏了。可是股
: 市里90%的人都是亏的。就算你是MIT博士毕业，你的思路和做法和那些大妈大叔没有什
: 么区别，结局也肯定不会有什么两样。大部分人买个菜还会斤斤计较，可是几万几十万
: 的所谓“投资”，即不花时间研究，也不花时间学习基本技巧。最终的结果不过是给华
: 尔街送钱罢了。本青蛙自己也是这么过来的，把将近十年的积蓄都亏光了。现在虽然稳
: 住了阵脚，但是实在觉得不应该忽悠大家进股市。
: 总之，做为新手，别总觉得拿着cash很亏。实际上cash进了股市亏得更厉害。别听别人
|
E******w
发帖数: 2616 | 46 存定期可以，但是这样开不开Roth IRA区别就不大了。而且，如果你需要买房买车，一
边存定期，一边用银行贷款买房，这也是不合算的。总之我觉得不开Roth IRA更合理一
些。
【在 y***j 的大作中提到】
: Roth IRA一年才5000快么？开个roth ira存CD行不？另外不折腾定投SPY和MDY行不？
|
c**********0
发帖数: 624 | 47 research shows people with higher IQ and financial literacy level prefer
Roth |
f*******n
发帖数: 12623 | 48 当然有区别。在外面存定期要交两次税。在Roth IRA存定期只要交一次税。
【在 E******w 的大作中提到】
: 存定期可以，但是这样开不开Roth IRA区别就不大了。而且，如果你需要买房买车，一
: 边存定期，一边用银行贷款买房，这也是不合算的。总之我觉得不开Roth IRA更合理一
: 些。
|
r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 49 太极端点了吧?
为什么不把 roth ira 钱放在指数基金里面呢? 从长远来看, 股市还是往上走的啊. |
r****9
发帖数: 4961 | 50 thank you.
【在 c**********0 的大作中提到】
: research shows people with higher IQ and financial literacy level prefer
: Roth
|
|
|
r*******y
发帖数: 290 | 51 Roth and traditional IRA makes big differences in the long term
The difference is the reinvestment and tax delay of the dividend yield
If you have sufficient funds to invest in your personal account,
you should select ROTH.
【在 c**********0 的大作中提到】
: research shows people with higher IQ and financial literacy level prefer
: Roth
|
f*******n
发帖数: 12623 | 52 There is no difference between short term and long term. The only difference
is between your tax rate now and your tax rate when you take it out.
【在 r*******y 的大作中提到】
: Roth and traditional IRA makes big differences in the long term
: The difference is the reinvestment and tax delay of the dividend yield
: If you have sufficient funds to invest in your personal account,
: you should select ROTH.
|
r****9
发帖数: 4961 | 53 roth is almost always better.
【在 f*******n 的大作中提到】
: There is no difference between short term and long term. The only difference
: is between your tax rate now and your tax rate when you take it out.
|
r*******y
发帖数: 290 | 54 As I said, there is a difference! and the difference is on the dividend
yield
This difference is small in 5 years, but could be 10% or more in 10years
difference
【在 f*******n 的大作中提到】
: There is no difference between short term and long term. The only difference
: is between your tax rate now and your tax rate when you take it out.
|
l******g
发帖数: 6771 | 55 zkss?
【在 r*******y 的大作中提到】
: As I said, there is a difference! and the difference is on the dividend
: yield
: This difference is small in 5 years, but could be 10% or more in 10years
:
: difference
|
f*******n
发帖数: 12623 | 56 No there is not. Even if it was 100 years, if the rate at which you are
taxed now and you are taxed when you take it out are the same, there is *
absolutely no difference*.
【在 r*******y 的大作中提到】
: As I said, there is a difference! and the difference is on the dividend
: yield
: This difference is small in 5 years, but could be 10% or more in 10years
:
: difference
|
l******g
发帖数: 6771 | 57 but that's a big if
【在 f*******n 的大作中提到】
: No there is not. Even if it was 100 years, if the rate at which you are
: taxed now and you are taxed when you take it out are the same, there is *
: absolutely no difference*.
|
r****9
发帖数: 4961 | 58 even in that case, Roth is almost always better.
【在 f*******n 的大作中提到】
: No there is not. Even if it was 100 years, if the rate at which you are
: taxed now and you are taxed when you take it out are the same, there is *
: absolutely no difference*.
|
c****n
发帖数: 1630 | 59 你能给出具体的解释么？我也听到过很多类似的说法，但是算下来并非如此。
拿几个简单的数字算算，假定本金100元，税率20%，投资若干年总收益100%。
Traditional——
投入100元，收益100元，取出200元，交税40元，得160元。
Roth——
交税20元，投入80元，收益80元，取出得160元。
所以，正如fakeshawn所说，如果投入和取出时的税率一样，则Traditional和Roth无区
别。如果税率现在低将来高，则Roth合算；如果税率现在高将来低，则Traditional合
算。
【在 r****9 的大作中提到】
: even in that case, Roth is almost always better.
|
S**C
发帖数: 2964 | 60 You are wrong.
Let's say your marginal tax rate is 25% Fed plus 5% state, you have $100
pretax dollar to invest.
If traditional you invest $100, grows to $200, when you take it out, you may
pay **nothing** on the first dollar you take out, you pay tax until you hit
certain tax bracket, your effective tax may be just 15% on the amout you
take out, so you get $170 net.
If ROTH that's straightforward, you invest $70, pay $30, the investment
grows to $140, and you get $140 net, the traditional win.
In short, for ROTH, you pay marginal tax rate when you invest each dollar.
For TraIRA, you pay effective tax rate when you take each dollar out. If
there is no tax code change, your future effective tax rate will very likely
lower than your current marginal tax rate even if your marginal rate is the
same.
For me, the ROTH option is much less appealing than what I thought before. I
do ROTH mainly for tax diversification purpose and its flexibility now. Of
course, non-deductable TraIRA is worse than ROTH.
【在 c****n 的大作中提到】
: 你能给出具体的解释么？我也听到过很多类似的说法，但是算下来并非如此。
: 拿几个简单的数字算算，假定本金100元，税率20%，投资若干年总收益100%。
: Traditional——
: 投入100元，收益100元，取出200元，交税40元，得160元。
: Roth——
: 交税20元，投入80元，收益80元，取出得160元。
: 所以，正如fakeshawn所说，如果投入和取出时的税率一样，则Traditional和Roth无区
: 别。如果税率现在低将来高，则Roth合算；如果税率现在高将来低，则Traditional合
: 算。
|
|
|
r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 61 Hmmm, marginal tax rate for Roth and effective tax rate for Traditional IRA.
Really? I am afraid you are wrong in your description.
Obviously, there are many differences between Roth IRA and Traditional IRA,
such as eligibility, withdrawal rules, etc. some differences are very
significant.
First of all, if you are eligible, always invest in Roth IRA, period.
Compared with Traditional IRA, Roth has too many advantages!
Now for tax rate, both are subject to income tax, with Roth taxed at the
year when you invest, and Traditional taxed at the year you withdraw. You
are probably confused about the effective rate and marginal tax rate. Any
incremental income is taxed at marginal tax rate, is Roth incremental income
at the year you invest it?
It's income you already received regardless you invest it or not, so you
should NOT treat it at marginal tax rate.
Traditional IRA's withdraws, it's something you have to take out anyway due
to IRS RMD rules, regardless you like it or not, so as you said, it should
be viewed at effective tax rate.
In other words, both are the same from tax rate perspective (although actual
rates could change, now and then, but that's a different topic).
The above discussion applies to 401K and Roth IRA, if you are comparing 401K
and and ROTH 401(k), they are essentially the same, except the now and then
tax rate differences, as you said, invest in Roth 401K for tax
diversification purpose is OK.
Just my 2 cents, pls consult your tax advisor before you taking any actions. |
S**C
发帖数: 2964 | 62 Well I do not think so.
"It's income you already received regardless you invest it or not, so you
should NOT treat it at marginal tax rate."
Sure it is income you already received, pretax. If you invest in ROTH, then
you need to pay marginal income tax, 30% in my post scenario, and remaining
goes to ROTH. If you invest in TraIRA, 100% goes in. So you ARE paying
marginal tax rate for the money that you put in ROTH. I think here should be
no dispute here. Every dough was taxed at 30%, that is, marginal rate.
When you take it out during retirement, unless you have other significant
income sources, social security is the only one for most people other than
investment income. Currently 25% tax bracket start at $36,251 for single and
$72,501 for married couple, adding in deductions, you need to withdraw a
lot dough from TraIRA to hit the bracket, So your withdrawal will be taxed
first at 10% then 15% then 25%, plus state tax 5%, the dough you withdrawed
may taxed at 15-20%, that is, very close to effective rate. I think here
should also be no dispute either. Agree?
My example is straitforward, $100 goes in TraIRA, or $70 goes in ROTH plus $
30 to Fed/State. Investment doubles, we end up with $200 if in TraIRA, and $
160-170 after paying tax, or $140 in ROTH. A tax uncertainty (risk) carries
benefit, sounds reasonable to me.
I should also mention between one retires to one needs to take RMD, there is
a long time with very little income, living off one's savings, hopefully
extra savings, so you can convert your significant amount of TraIRA to ROTH
at lower rate.
IRA.
,
【在 r****m 的大作中提到】
: Hmmm, marginal tax rate for Roth and effective tax rate for Traditional IRA.
: Really? I am afraid you are wrong in your description.
: Obviously, there are many differences between Roth IRA and Traditional IRA,
: such as eligibility, withdrawal rules, etc. some differences are very
: significant.
: First of all, if you are eligible, always invest in Roth IRA, period.
: Compared with Traditional IRA, Roth has too many advantages!
: Now for tax rate, both are subject to income tax, with Roth taxed at the
: year when you invest, and Traditional taxed at the year you withdraw. You
: are probably confused about the effective rate and marginal tax rate. Any
|
h**l
发帖数: 4883 | 63 Roth 和 traditional的limit都是5500。 但是Roth 是after tax 的钱，也就是说能投
入的pretax的钱比 traditional 多。 traditional 投入100块，收益100块，将来拿到
160块。 Roth 能投入125块pretax也就是100块after tax的钱，将来能拿到200块。
Well I do not think so."It's income you already received regardless you
invest it or not........
【在 S**C 的大作中提到】
: Well I do not think so.
: "It's income you already received regardless you invest it or not, so you
: should NOT treat it at marginal tax rate."
: Sure it is income you already received, pretax. If you invest in ROTH, then
: you need to pay marginal income tax, 30% in my post scenario, and remaining
: goes to ROTH. If you invest in TraIRA, 100% goes in. So you ARE paying
: marginal tax rate for the money that you put in ROTH. I think here should be
: no dispute here. Every dough was taxed at 30%, that is, marginal rate.
: When you take it out during retirement, unless you have other significant
: income sources, social security is the only one for most people other than
|
S**C
发帖数: 2964 | 64 It is a different aspect. Not everyone can max out tax shelters, it is also
a question if one want max out traditional 401k first then ROTH, if 401k
plan is good.
【在 h**l 的大作中提到】
: Roth 和 traditional的limit都是5500。 但是Roth 是after tax 的钱，也就是说能投
: 入的pretax的钱比 traditional 多。 traditional 投入100块，收益100块，将来拿到
: 160块。 Roth 能投入125块pretax也就是100块after tax的钱，将来能拿到200块。
:
: Well I do not think so."It's income you already received regardless you
: invest it or not........
|
i**********o
发帖数: 5993 | 65 你真是什么都不懂还喜欢乱讲。害人呀。
【在 E******w 的大作中提到】
: 为了大家好，本青蛙不能说。首先，不会炒股，根本就不该考虑什么Roth IRA，
: Traditional IRA。（至少大部分人把钱放进这些账户都是用来炒股的，或者美其名曰
: 投资）那些都是把你的钱骗进股市的陷阱。普通账户亏了钱还可以抵税，那些账户亏了
: 钱连税都抵不了。新手都认为自己会投资，认为钱不放到什么地方增值就亏了。可是股
: 市里90%的人都是亏的。就算你是MIT博士毕业，你的思路和做法和那些大妈大叔没有什
: 么区别，结局也肯定不会有什么两样。大部分人买个菜还会斤斤计较，可是几万几十万
: 的所谓“投资”，即不花时间研究，也不花时间学习基本技巧。最终的结果不过是给华
: 尔街送钱罢了。本青蛙自己也是这么过来的，把将近十年的积蓄都亏光了。现在虽然稳
: 住了阵脚，但是实在觉得不应该忽悠大家进股市。
: 总之，做为新手，别总觉得拿着cash很亏。实际上cash进了股市亏得更厉害。别听别人
|
h**l
发帖数: 4883 | 66 Not everyone can contribute to traditional IRA either.
People who are able to max out 401k are more likely to contribute to Roth
because they may not qualify for traditional IRA.
Another thing is that traditional IRA is similar to 401k in tax perspective,
so contributing to Roth can diversify the tax risk since you never know if
the tax rate after your retirement could be 50%...
also
【在 S**C 的大作中提到】
: It is a different aspect. Not everyone can max out tax shelters, it is also
: a question if one want max out traditional 401k first then ROTH, if 401k
: plan is good.
|
r**m
发帖数: 1825 | 67 nasdaq index is still 25% below its peak 13 years ago.
so timing is important.
【在 r****m 的大作中提到】
: 太极端点了吧?
: 为什么不把 roth ira 钱放在指数基金里面呢? 从长远来看, 股市还是往上走的啊.
|
S**C
发帖数: 2964 | 68 I think I already mentioned tax diversification and flexibility of ROTH as
reasons why I invest in ROTH. I am challenging the view that for same pre-
tax dollar, if tax code has no change, you get same after-tax dollar, and
since ROTH has extra benefits, ROTH wins hands-down.
I say, not so fast, you are very likely to end up with more after-tax dollar
if you invest in traditional IRA/401k vehicle, rather than pay tax now and
invest the rest to ROTH IRA/401k.
If we wander to tax changes and maneuvers one can make, than it become
anyone's guess. Tax rate can increase, well, ROTH can be subjected to mean
testing that partially eliminate its tax benefit. How about a national VAT
and low income tax rate? ROTH would be not-so-good an idea in such
environment too. Not to mention, between RMD and retirement, one has a lot
of time to do ROTH conversion at low rate. The list goes on and on, the
Congress will find ways to tax where the money is, and 20 years from now,
the pols will find out how attractive these ROTH accouts are.
perspective,
if
【在 h**l 的大作中提到】
: Not everyone can contribute to traditional IRA either.
: People who are able to max out 401k are more likely to contribute to Roth
: because they may not qualify for traditional IRA.
: Another thing is that traditional IRA is similar to 401k in tax perspective,
: so contributing to Roth can diversify the tax risk since you never know if
: the tax rate after your retirement could be 50%...
:
: also
|
h**l
发帖数: 4883 | 69 But your assumption of withdrawing tax rate is only based on low income
after retirement. If you already withdraw enough money from 401k plus SS to
hit high tax bracket, the money from IRA will be taxed at 30% marginal rate
comparing to roth at 0%.
dollar
and
【在 S**C 的大作中提到】
: I think I already mentioned tax diversification and flexibility of ROTH as
: reasons why I invest in ROTH. I am challenging the view that for same pre-
: tax dollar, if tax code has no change, you get same after-tax dollar, and
: since ROTH has extra benefits, ROTH wins hands-down.
: I say, not so fast, you are very likely to end up with more after-tax dollar
: if you invest in traditional IRA/401k vehicle, rather than pay tax now and
: invest the rest to ROTH IRA/401k.
: If we wander to tax changes and maneuvers one can make, than it become
: anyone's guess. Tax rate can increase, well, ROTH can be subjected to mean
: testing that partially eliminate its tax benefit. How about a national VAT
|
c****n
发帖数: 1630 | 70 这个我也想到了，但是同时又想到，如果我现在收入比较低，那么我可能没有足够的剩
余的钱投满IRA；如果我现在收入比较高了，有足够的钱投满IRA了，可是我的税率又高
了，这时候投Roth又不合算了。所以上限的问题只有在某个特定范围内有意义。最关键
的还是两个税率的对比。
【在 h**l 的大作中提到】
: Roth 和 traditional的limit都是5500。 但是Roth 是after tax 的钱，也就是说能投
: 入的pretax的钱比 traditional 多。 traditional 投入100块，收益100块，将来拿到
: 160块。 Roth 能投入125块pretax也就是100块after tax的钱，将来能拿到200块。
:
: Well I do not think so."It's income you already received regardless you
: invest it or not........
|
|
|
c****n
发帖数: 1630 | 71 另外，对于Roth option多投的25元，traditional同样也可以用于投资，只不过收益要
交税罢了。所以我们看看同样投125元的情况。为方便计算，假定税率仍是20%，若干年
收益100%，IRA上限100元。
Traditional——
投入100元至IRA，取出200元，交税40元，得160元。另外25元，交税5元，剩下20元投
资，收益20元，交税4元。共计196元。
Roth——
与你的计算相同，得200元。
所以可以看到，即使在理想的情况下，IRA上限带来的影响也只有4元的差别而已。这个
差别与其他影响因素相比是比较小的。
【在 h**l 的大作中提到】
: Roth 和 traditional的limit都是5500。 但是Roth 是after tax 的钱，也就是说能投
: 入的pretax的钱比 traditional 多。 traditional 投入100块，收益100块，将来拿到
: 160块。 Roth 能投入125块pretax也就是100块after tax的钱，将来能拿到200块。
:
: Well I do not think so."It's income you already received regardless you
: invest it or not........
|
c****n
发帖数: 1630 | 72 大家讨论的主要分歧我觉得可能在于对取出时的税率预估不同。有的人觉得那时候可能
没有收入或者收入很低，因此税率应当比现在低；有的人觉得那时候应该有很多收入，
税率肯定比现在高。这都是有可能的。但是我的考虑是，只有在前者的情况下，IRA里
面的钱才对我最有意义。如果我退休的时候有很多收入，那么traditional IRA收的几
个税钱对我就无所谓了。所以，我更愿意着眼于前者的情况，即假定退休后收入很低。
再者，先交税的话，交了就是交了，钱不是我的了。但是先放在traditional IRA里面
的话，我可以决定什么时候再交。比如忽然失业了，又需要用钱，以低税率取出，即使
算上penalty都可能是合算的，加起来都比我之前的税率低。更不用说还有一些情况可
以免penalty。 |
S**C
发帖数: 2964 | 73 Not every dollar you took out subjects to marginal tax, while every dollor
you put in ROTH may well be the case. I do not need to assume marhinal tax
rate change to come ahead.
to
rate
【在 h**l 的大作中提到】
: But your assumption of withdrawing tax rate is only based on low income
: after retirement. If you already withdraw enough money from 401k plus SS to
: hit high tax bracket, the money from IRA will be taxed at 30% marginal rate
: comparing to roth at 0%.
:
: dollar
: and
|
h**l
发帖数: 4883 | 74 I would agree with you if comparing traditional 401k and Roth 401k. But
traditional IRA and Roth IRA are supplemental retirement investment to me,
so both would be taxed at marginal tax rate given my major retirement income
will be from ss and 401k.
Not every dollar you took out subjects to marginal tax, while every dollor
you put in RO........
【在 S**C 的大作中提到】
: Not every dollar you took out subjects to marginal tax, while every dollor
: you put in ROTH may well be the case. I do not need to assume marhinal tax
: rate change to come ahead.
:
: to
: rate
|
h**l
发帖数: 4883 | 75 Let's say you get $100000 from 401k and ss and $10000 from traditional IRA
Or you get $100000 from 401k and ss and $10000 from Roth
You would pay $2500 tax more in the first case if the marginal tax rate is
25% then, not $1500 which is the effective tax rate.
I would agree with you if comparing traditional 401k and Roth 401k.
【在 h**l 的大作中提到】
: I would agree with you if comparing traditional 401k and Roth 401k. But
: traditional IRA and Roth IRA are supplemental retirement investment to me,
: so both would be taxed at marginal tax rate given my major retirement income
: will be from ss and 401k.
:
: Not every dollar you took out subjects to marginal tax, while every dollor
: you put in RO........
|
c****n
发帖数: 1630 | 76 那这是一个很大的前提假定了，恐怕多数人的财务状况并非如此，你的结论只能适用于
一部分人。同时投满401k和IRA的人应该不多，大部分还是二选一的吧。讨论IRA选择
traditional还是roth的时候，很多时候就意味着401k是没有的或者很少的。
而且如我前面所说，如果你在取IRA之前就已经有了足以达到高税率的收入，那么IRA这
点钱对你来说只是锦上添花，不是决定性的意义。如果是我的话，我不在乎为“闲钱”
多交几个百分点的税，或者请个好的会计师来替我操心。但是对于更多数人的情况而言
，IRA是退休后收入的主要来源，几个百分点也会影响生活质量的高低，这时候才有必
要仔细规划。
income
【在 h**l 的大作中提到】
: I would agree with you if comparing traditional 401k and Roth 401k. But
: traditional IRA and Roth IRA are supplemental retirement investment to me,
: so both would be taxed at marginal tax rate given my major retirement income
: will be from ss and 401k.
:
: Not every dollar you took out subjects to marginal tax, while every dollor
: you put in RO........
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h**l
发帖数: 4883 | 77 不管同不同时投401k和IRA, 大多数人一生投下来就会有个combination的 tax
deferred (401k和 traditional IRA)和 tax advantaged (roth)的账户吧。很少有人
一辈子只投IRA 或者只投 roth的。 我觉得你的计算就是用一时的投资过于simplify对
于整个几十年的退休账户的操作。 大多数人退休后的钱应该是从多种账户包括ss来算
的， 所以退休后IRA和Roth 的税率比较不该用effective tax rate. 因为大多数人一
生工作下来，退休取得钱里肯定是有ss, 401k的。 最后traditional IRA和 roth的税
率差距应该是marginal tax rate或者接近于 这个税率。 所以大多数网上比较roth和
traditional IRA都是用marginal tax rate 在比。
那这是一个很大的前提假定了，恐怕多数人的财务状况并非如此，你的结论只能适用于
一部分人。同时投满401k和IRA的人应该不多，大部分还是二选一的吧。讨论IRA选择
traditio........
【在 c****n 的大作中提到】
: 那这是一个很大的前提假定了，恐怕多数人的财务状况并非如此，你的结论只能适用于
: 一部分人。同时投满401k和IRA的人应该不多，大部分还是二选一的吧。讨论IRA选择
: traditional还是roth的时候，很多时候就意味着401k是没有的或者很少的。
: 而且如我前面所说，如果你在取IRA之前就已经有了足以达到高税率的收入，那么IRA这
: 点钱对你来说只是锦上添花，不是决定性的意义。如果是我的话，我不在乎为“闲钱”
: 多交几个百分点的税，或者请个好的会计师来替我操心。但是对于更多数人的情况而言
: ，IRA是退休后收入的主要来源，几个百分点也会影响生活质量的高低，这时候才有必
: 要仔细规划。
:
: income
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