t****p
发帖数: 1504 | 1 很多时候听到病人手术切除加化疗以后，不久发现癌细胞转移，宣判死刑。
这个癌细胞转移应该是发生在手术切除的之前，还是之后？
看review得不到这个答案，哪位做癌症的给解惑一下。 |
l******u
发帖数: 936 | 2 normaly 在手术切除的之前, but 在手术切除的之前 not been detected.
【在 t****p 的大作中提到】
: 很多时候听到病人手术切除加化疗以后，不久发现癌细胞转移，宣判死刑。
: 这个癌细胞转移应该是发生在手术切除的之前，还是之后？
: 看review得不到这个答案，哪位做癌症的给解惑一下。
|
D*********t
发帖数: 370 | 3 Both are possible, depending on the tumor type and stage. For late stage
tumors, usually there are plenty of circulating tumor cells in the blood
that cannot be surgically removed or easily killed. Some of them eventually
find new homes (tissues) to grow, if not already have settled.
【在 t****p 的大作中提到】
: 很多时候听到病人手术切除加化疗以后，不久发现癌细胞转移，宣判死刑。
: 这个癌细胞转移应该是发生在手术切除的之前，还是之后？
: 看review得不到这个答案，哪位做癌症的给解惑一下。
|
t****p
发帖数: 1504 | 4 Thank you very much. Looks you are familiar with this field.
Another question, may be too specific:
How possible is it to use migration inhibitor to interfere cancer metatasis,
before cancer cells settle down at new places?
eventually
【在 D*********t 的大作中提到】
: Both are possible, depending on the tumor type and stage. For late stage
: tumors, usually there are plenty of circulating tumor cells in the blood
: that cannot be surgically removed or easily killed. Some of them eventually
: find new homes (tissues) to grow, if not already have settled.
|
l*h
发帖数: 4124 | 5 There is no clinically available migration/metastasis inhibitor.
There are quite some research efforts trying to figure out what causes
cancer cells to metastasize. No real answer has been found yet (A lot of
molecules are involved.) For research, as the last time I did a literature
survey, there is no cancer cell (even for a specific cancer type) specific
migration inhibitor.
metatasis,
【在 t****p 的大作中提到】
: Thank you very much. Looks you are familiar with this field.
: Another question, may be too specific:
: How possible is it to use migration inhibitor to interfere cancer metatasis,
: before cancer cells settle down at new places?
:
: eventually
|
l*h
发帖数: 4124 | 6 If you can find/develop a cancer specific migration inhibitor, it will be a
big deal.
metatasis,
【在 t****p 的大作中提到】
: Thank you very much. Looks you are familiar with this field.
: Another question, may be too specific:
: How possible is it to use migration inhibitor to interfere cancer metatasis,
: before cancer cells settle down at new places?
:
: eventually
|
t****p
发帖数: 1504 | 7 thank you. this help a lot.
if the migration inhibitor is not specific, what will happen、
I saw a lot of inhibitors, such as mTOR or PI3K inhibtors, growth receptor
inhibitors, they are not cell type specific at all. I am confused how these
inhibitors can kill tumor cells at specific window.
a
【在 l*h 的大作中提到】
: If you can find/develop a cancer specific migration inhibitor, it will be a
: big deal.
:
: metatasis,
|
l*h
发帖数: 4124 | 8 They are signal transduction pathway inhibitors.
these
【在 t****p 的大作中提到】
: thank you. this help a lot.
: if the migration inhibitor is not specific, what will happen、
: I saw a lot of inhibitors, such as mTOR or PI3K inhibtors, growth receptor
: inhibitors, they are not cell type specific at all. I am confused how these
: inhibitors can kill tumor cells at specific window.
:
: a
|
t****p
发帖数: 1504 | 9 what is the difference? they could also interfere function of normal cells.
【在 l*h 的大作中提到】
: They are signal transduction pathway inhibitors.
:
: these
|
l*h
发帖数: 4124 | 10 I mean the inhibitors you listed are signal transduction pathway inhibitors.
Yes, you do interfere with normal cells too. That's why some of these
inhibitors cause interstitial pneumonitis and some other adverse effects
when used in cancer treatment.
Specificity is something people are chasing after.
.
【在 t****p 的大作中提到】
: what is the difference? they could also interfere function of normal cells.
|
|
|
t****p
发帖数: 1504 | 11
good to know. thanks a lot.
【在 l*h 的大作中提到】
: I mean the inhibitors you listed are signal transduction pathway inhibitors.
: Yes, you do interfere with normal cells too. That's why some of these
: inhibitors cause interstitial pneumonitis and some other adverse effects
: when used in cancer treatment.
: Specificity is something people are chasing after.
:
: .
|
l*h
发帖数: 4124 | 12 What you find confusing is also the things those big guys in the field are
trying to understand. When you know what have not been studied, you will not
feel confused. If you have the resources, you can propose some studies to
answer your own questions.
【在 t****p 的大作中提到】
:
: good to know. thanks a lot.
|
y**s
发帖数: 6809 | 13 弱弱的问一下，发育完成之后，成体的哪些细胞需要migrate啊？
There is no clinically available migration/metastasis inhibitor.
There are quite some research efforts trying to figure out what causes
cancer cells to metastasize. No real answer has been found yet (A lot of
molecules are involved.) For research, as the last time I did a literature
survey, there is no cancer cell (even for a specific cancer type) specific
migration inhibitor.
metatasis,
【在 l*h 的大作中提到】
: There is no clinically available migration/metastasis inhibitor.
: There are quite some research efforts trying to figure out what causes
: cancer cells to metastasize. No real answer has been found yet (A lot of
: molecules are involved.) For research, as the last time I did a literature
: survey, there is no cancer cell (even for a specific cancer type) specific
: migration inhibitor.
:
: metatasis,
|
l*h
发帖数: 4124 | 14 migrate in large scales, for example, monocytes (macrophages) and other
immune cells.
【在 y**s 的大作中提到】
: 弱弱的问一下，发育完成之后，成体的哪些细胞需要migrate啊？
:
: There is no clinically available migration/metastasis inhibitor.
: There are quite some research efforts trying to figure out what causes
: cancer cells to metastasize. No real answer has been found yet (A lot of
: molecules are involved.) For research, as the last time I did a literature
: survey, there is no cancer cell (even for a specific cancer type) specific
: migration inhibitor.
: metatasis,
|
h********n
发帖数: 4079 | 15 to follow up this topic.
The model(s) of metastasis is still under debate. I am very interested in
these topic:
1. what is the time scale for each step: from primary cell invasion to
circulation to extravasation to settledown to outgrowth. In different
cancer type the steps might take different time scale, which will affect
drug targeting strategy.
2. which step(s) is rate limiting?
3. pre-malignant vs malignant cell migration. Most papers said malignant
cell migrated and formed metastasis, bu
【在 D*********t 的大作中提到】
: Both are possible, depending on the tumor type and stage. For late stage
: tumors, usually there are plenty of circulating tumor cells in the blood
: that cannot be surgically removed or easily killed. Some of them eventually
: find new homes (tissues) to grow, if not already have settled.
|
h********n
发帖数: 4079 | 16 I think the more specific compounds are: cancer specific migration inhibitor
. Even you find one, the side effect (to other cell type) are hard to
predict. Just my own opinion.
metatasis,
【在 t****p 的大作中提到】
: Thank you very much. Looks you are familiar with this field.
: Another question, may be too specific:
: How possible is it to use migration inhibitor to interfere cancer metatasis,
: before cancer cells settle down at new places?
:
: eventually
|
D*********t
发帖数: 370 | 17 Well said (lmh and snoopy). Indeed there are no cancer-specific migration
inhibitors available as yet. However, cancer cells tend to overexpress
certain molecules and rely more heavily on these molecules for function (
including migration). The cancer-specific molecules (especially those
expressed on the cell surface) themselves are a focus of investigations, for
the purpose specific targeting. |
r****r
发帖数: 379 | 18 我觉得更有可能的是两类途径：
1，依据一些metastasis中出现的突变蛋白的那些突变位点设计specific rani therapy
2，发展delivery tools，用专一性的载体比如单抗结合迁移肿瘤的一些特异表面受体
去delivery the drug
对于tumor therapy而言，想着纯粹从化学角度开发专一性药物，可能不是个很有效的
方法。
for
【在 D*********t 的大作中提到】
: Well said (lmh and snoopy). Indeed there are no cancer-specific migration
: inhibitors available as yet. However, cancer cells tend to overexpress
: certain molecules and rely more heavily on these molecules for function (
: including migration). The cancer-specific molecules (especially those
: expressed on the cell surface) themselves are a focus of investigations, for
: the purpose specific targeting.
|
D******9
发帖数: 2665 | 19 个人认为这个cancer specific migration inhibitor在临床上很难被引用， 因为很多
病人被诊断的时候， 已经被转移了， 像小细胞肺癌。要是在发生在转移前发现， 只
要手术就可以清除了。要是手术后复发， 基本上都是在手术前就转移了。
了解tumor细胞如何变成转移的细胞， 像乳腺癌的EMT， 想办法阻断或是逆转它，倒是
很有意义。 |
t****p
发帖数: 1504 | 20 是，了解癌细胞转移究竟在手术前和手术后很重要。
怎么解释有的病人几年后发生转移呢？
【在 D******9 的大作中提到】
: 个人认为这个cancer specific migration inhibitor在临床上很难被引用， 因为很多
: 病人被诊断的时候， 已经被转移了， 像小细胞肺癌。要是在发生在转移前发现， 只
: 要手术就可以清除了。要是手术后复发， 基本上都是在手术前就转移了。
: 了解tumor细胞如何变成转移的细胞， 像乳腺癌的EMT， 想办法阻断或是逆转它，倒是
: 很有意义。
|
|
|
r****r
发帖数: 379 | 21 metastasis也分阶段的，所以这些抑制剂还是有用的。
但他讲的是一个悖论的问题，我倒觉得从另外一个角度来说，是非常对的，没有发现转
移的时候，你不能无的放矢去用药，包括剂量，给药方式都无法确定一个最佳效果，你
虽然可以依据以往的经验预判可能出现的转移类型而且用药，但可能还是抵不过癌细胞
的突变筛选，最后逃过你这个抑制剂的作用。
我觉得更多的作用还是在：1），怎么更好的预判，以及迅速在早期发现癌转移；2），
怎么更有效杀死发生癌转移的细胞；3），怎么抑制癌转移（更现实的可能不是抑制起
始，而是中间阶段）。
其实所有的癌相关的东西，检测远比治疗更重要，而靶向性治疗远比所谓的专一性治疗
更重要。
【在 t****p 的大作中提到】
: 是，了解癌细胞转移究竟在手术前和手术后很重要。
: 怎么解释有的病人几年后发生转移呢？
|
w******y
发帖数: 8040 | 22 你要真对治疗癌症有兴趣
多关注一下CSC
俺老觉得最靠谱的一个是CSC,一个是细胞免疫治疗
【在 t****p 的大作中提到】
: 是，了解癌细胞转移究竟在手术前和手术后很重要。
: 怎么解释有的病人几年后发生转移呢？
|
t****p
发帖数: 1504 | 23 不是，我只是在了解我现在的一些研究结果是否有可能跟疾病挂钩。
【在 w******y 的大作中提到】
: 你要真对治疗癌症有兴趣
: 多关注一下CSC
: 俺老觉得最靠谱的一个是CSC,一个是细胞免疫治疗
|
D******9
发帖数: 2665 | 24 怎么解释有的病人几年后发生转移呢？
不是几年后转移， 是在手术前就转移了， 只是看不见， 从一个癌细胞到一个可见的
肿瘤， 或许需要几年的时间。 |
D******9
发帖数: 2665 | 25 怎么解释有的病人几年后发生转移呢？
不是几年后转移， 是在手术前就转移了， 只是看不见， 从一个癌细胞到一个可见的
肿瘤， 或许需要几年的时间。 |
s******r
发帖数: 2876 | 26 什么是CSC？
你要真对治疗癌症有兴趣
多关注一下CSC
俺老觉得最靠谱的一个是CSC,一个是细胞免疫治疗
【在 w******y 的大作中提到】
: 你要真对治疗癌症有兴趣
: 多关注一下CSC
: 俺老觉得最靠谱的一个是CSC,一个是细胞免疫治疗
|
h******y
发帖数: 1374 | 27 cancer stem cell?
【在 s******r 的大作中提到】
: 什么是CSC？
:
: 你要真对治疗癌症有兴趣
: 多关注一下CSC
: 俺老觉得最靠谱的一个是CSC,一个是细胞免疫治疗
|
l*h
发帖数: 4124 | 28 Let me throw a wrench in here.
Certain types of cancers tend to metastasize to CNS. Up until very recently,
the clinical approach is to perform lumbar puncture frequently to collect
CSF for analysis.
Recently it has been observed that this practice greatly increases the rate
of CNS metastasis in these cancers, even though no metastasis has been ever
known to occur on the types of tissues that exist on the puncture path (skin
, intervertebrate ligaments and etc.). This raises the possibility that |
l*h
发帖数: 4124 | 29 你老觉得靠谱的东西太多了。Cancer stem cell现在虽然很热，但还是一个假说。这样
靠谱的假说过去10年多了去了。
【在 w******y 的大作中提到】
: 你要真对治疗癌症有兴趣
: 多关注一下CSC
: 俺老觉得最靠谱的一个是CSC,一个是细胞免疫治疗
|
w******y
发帖数: 8040 | 30 恼羞成怒了？哈哈哈
CSC的确目前介于假说和事实之间
俺老的意思是CSC学说给出了现在治疗方式很快失效的原因
是值得pursue的方向
【在 l*h 的大作中提到】
: 你老觉得靠谱的东西太多了。Cancer stem cell现在虽然很热，但还是一个假说。这样
: 靠谱的假说过去10年多了去了。
|
|
|
r****r
发帖数: 379 | 31 csc并没有解释现在大部分治疗方式失效的原因，只是这个理论认为它可以解释。
不过，我同意这是很值得关注的一个方向：P
【在 w******y 的大作中提到】
: 恼羞成怒了？哈哈哈
: CSC的确目前介于假说和事实之间
: 俺老的意思是CSC学说给出了现在治疗方式很快失效的原因
: 是值得pursue的方向
|
l******u
发帖数: 936 | 32 在生物领域，要用某个理论彻底解释某个现象还是非常难的。
近年有些研究把 CSC 和 EMT 建立了一些联系， 还挺有意思的。
【在 r****r 的大作中提到】
: csc并没有解释现在大部分治疗方式失效的原因，只是这个理论认为它可以解释。
: 不过，我同意这是很值得关注的一个方向：P
|
i****e
发帖数: 156 | 33 Acturally I do not think anyone can give you an exact answer. First,no one
can guarantee a surgery is able to remove all the cancer cells in a patient,
Second, no one knows if the metastasis has happened before a surgery. So
metastasis could be happening either before or after a surgery. Of cos, the
earlier to do surgery, the less chance of metastasis, and the longer life
for the patient to survive.
【在 t****p 的大作中提到】
: 很多时候听到病人手术切除加化疗以后，不久发现癌细胞转移，宣判死刑。
: 这个癌细胞转移应该是发生在手术切除的之前，还是之后？
: 看review得不到这个答案，哪位做癌症的给解惑一下。
|
i****e
发帖数: 156 | 34 In my understanding, EMT & metastasis must be related with CSCs, CAFs, and
cancer cell microenviroment. I donot believe any cancer cell can regenerate
a tumor after spreading to other tissues. Only CSCs can. I also believe the
cross-talking between cancer cells and CAFs, and the microenviroment of
cancer cells have important regulation to metastasis. So before discovering
an effective metastasis-inhibitor, we need to clear the metastasis mechanism
first.
【在 l*h 的大作中提到】
: There is no clinically available migration/metastasis inhibitor.
: There are quite some research efforts trying to figure out what causes
: cancer cells to metastasize. No real answer has been found yet (A lot of
: molecules are involved.) For research, as the last time I did a literature
: survey, there is no cancer cell (even for a specific cancer type) specific
: migration inhibitor.
:
: metatasis,
|
i****e
发帖数: 156 | 35 good points.
therapy
【在 r****r 的大作中提到】
: 我觉得更有可能的是两类途径：
: 1，依据一些metastasis中出现的突变蛋白的那些突变位点设计specific rani therapy
: 2，发展delivery tools，用专一性的载体比如单抗结合迁移肿瘤的一些特异表面受体
: 去delivery the drug
: 对于tumor therapy而言，想着纯粹从化学角度开发专一性药物，可能不是个很有效的
: 方法。
:
: for
|
i****e
发帖数: 156 | 36 It is very possible that the cancer cells had metastasized before surgery.
Also it is possible that is a primary tumor rather than a metastatic tumor.
Cancer patients usually carry some gene mutation/deletion or other situation
under which cancer happens easily, possibly in multiple tissues.
【在 t****p 的大作中提到】
: 是，了解癌细胞转移究竟在手术前和手术后很重要。
: 怎么解释有的病人几年后发生转移呢？
|
i****e
发帖数: 156 | 37 Donot you believe CSCs?
Currently few people doubt about the existence of CSCs. But some bioligist
are arguing about the proportion of CSCs. At the beginning it was
hypothesized that only small proporation of cancer cells has characteristics
of stem cells.Recently someone argue that as many as 40% of cancer cells
has the properties of CSCs. But I personally support the beginning one. From
the literature, as few as 100 CSCs (defined from cell surface markers)
injection is able to grow to a tunor
【在 l*h 的大作中提到】
: 你老觉得靠谱的东西太多了。Cancer stem cell现在虽然很热，但还是一个假说。这样
: 靠谱的假说过去10年多了去了。
|
y***i
发帖数: 11639 | 38 现在癌症药物五花八门, specificity好像没有大家直觉上感觉的那么重要。现在有
的drug是针对transcription mechine， 有的是translation mechine，都是正常细胞
必须的功能，几乎没有specificity可言。
inhibitors.
cells
【在 l*h 的大作中提到】
: I mean the inhibitors you listed are signal transduction pathway inhibitors.
: Yes, you do interfere with normal cells too. That's why some of these
: inhibitors cause interstitial pneumonitis and some other adverse effects
: when used in cancer treatment.
: Specificity is something people are chasing after.
:
: .
|
t******y
发帖数: 716 | 39 从癌症的表型特征来看，癌症细胞能够自我更新，实体瘤不是单一一种细胞组成，就符
合当前对干细胞的定义：自我更新，和分化能力。
不过是否存在cancer stem cell的争论对治疗癌症现实意义不大。生物是一个连续体，
没有办法人为用定义来区分。无论是癌细胞还是恶性干细胞，在现实中就是同一表型的
不同命名。 |
p*f
发帖数: 77 | 40 Not all "cancer stem cells" can generate tumors. Tumorigenesis is a complex
process.
characteristics
From
are
【在 i****e 的大作中提到】
: Donot you believe CSCs?
: Currently few people doubt about the existence of CSCs. But some bioligist
: are arguing about the proportion of CSCs. At the beginning it was
: hypothesized that only small proporation of cancer cells has characteristics
: of stem cells.Recently someone argue that as many as 40% of cancer cells
: has the properties of CSCs. But I personally support the beginning one. From
: the literature, as few as 100 CSCs (defined from cell surface markers)
: injection is able to grow to a tunor
|
|
|
s*r
发帖数: 2757 | 41 does the practice increase the actual rate or the diagnosis rate instead
recently,
rate
ever
skin
even
to
【在 l*h 的大作中提到】
: Let me throw a wrench in here.
: Certain types of cancers tend to metastasize to CNS. Up until very recently,
: the clinical approach is to perform lumbar puncture frequently to collect
: CSF for analysis.
: Recently it has been observed that this practice greatly increases the rate
: of CNS metastasis in these cancers, even though no metastasis has been ever
: known to occur on the types of tissues that exist on the puncture path (skin
: , intervertebrate ligaments and etc.). This raises the possibility that
|
s*r
发帖数: 2757 | 42 sperms eggs
【在 y**s 的大作中提到】
: 弱弱的问一下，发育完成之后，成体的哪些细胞需要migrate啊？
:
: There is no clinically available migration/metastasis inhibitor.
: There are quite some research efforts trying to figure out what causes
: cancer cells to metastasize. No real answer has been found yet (A lot of
: molecules are involved.) For research, as the last time I did a literature
: survey, there is no cancer cell (even for a specific cancer type) specific
: migration inhibitor.
: metatasis,
|
