S**C
发帖数: 2964 | 1 How many fully charged batteries the station need to store? How much capital
will be tied to that batteries for that station? |
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c*******9
发帖数: 9032 | 3 反复用这种似是而非的论据，比亚迪出的事少吗，把其它部分赔进去了吗，连电动车部
门都没严重影响。出事不要紧，但要知道原因。
了。 |
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k*****r
发帖数: 21039 | 5 re
和文科生是很难有正常的辩论的。特别是洋奴型文科生，他们那是faith based, 不需
要逻辑。 |
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S**C
发帖数: 2964 | 6 Unless someone can invent some type of energy storage media that is better
than gasoline/diesel in terms of safety, energy density (both mass and
volume) and cost, gasoline and diesel and here to stay.
To charge a 85 KWHr battery pack in 5 minutes one needs 1 MW, not going to
happen. That is only one car, think about gas station typically have 4, 8,
12, or more outlet. So plug in fast charge station is dead. For comparison,
filling 10 gallon gas needs ~1 minute, that is about same as 85 kWHr net... 阅读全帖 |
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l********7
发帖数: 1077 | 7 musk或许能够一段时间内成功地卖这些expensive toys给少部分爱装逼的有钱人这个
niche market with the subsidy of taxpayers' money。
对传统汽车毫无威胁
, |
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c*******9
发帖数: 9032 | 8 后年出3,4万美元版本，省了油钱，比很多汽油车还划算。 |
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c*******9
发帖数: 9032 | 9 几百公里的继航，多花点时间充电不是问题。参考智能手机。
in |
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c*******9
发帖数: 9032 | 10 汽油车造成严重污染多交点税䃼贴新能源车很合理吧。 |
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S**C
发帖数: 2964 | 11 What "serious" pollution you are talking about? |
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S**C
发帖数: 2964 | 12 How long do you expect it would be? It takes 240V/20A charger 18 hrs to
charge 85 KWHr to full, considering the power loss, it is not far fetched to
say it take nearly a full day. |
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c*******9
发帖数: 9032 | 13 即便到不了标承的400多公里，300公里一般就可以了。电池每年进步百分之五到八，以
后这更不是大问题。 |
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S**C
发帖数: 2964 | 15 My contention has little to do with battery at all. |
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S**C
发帖数: 2964 | 16 I like to know your "common sense". My common sense is ICE vehicles produce
very little pollution thanks to the advanced after-treatment technologies. |
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S**C
发帖数: 2964 | 17 Where is your source of battery technology advance 5-8% per year. |
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c*******9
发帖数: 9032 | 18 好像是tesla的说法，不会太离谱，否则很容易被反驳。 |
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S**C
发帖数: 2964 | 19 They may talk about the cost of battery rather than the energy density of
the battery. |
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w********e
发帖数: 8594 | 20 谁能评论评论这则消息？
https://cn.nikkei.com/industry/itelectric-appliance/6160-20130801.html
日企开发出让手机电池容量增10倍的新材料
2013/08/01
More
打印E-mail
日本的信越化学工业公司开发出了用于智能手机和电动汽车（EV）的锂离子电
池新材料。这种材料可将电池储存的电量最大增加至10倍，可以延长智能手机的使用时
间或缩小电池体积。计划在3～4年后进行量产，并销售给全球大型电池厂商。在新一代
电池材料开发领域，日本的材料企业具有领先优势。随着信越化学的进入该领域，储存
更多电量的技术的开发有望加速。
信越化学开发的是电池内用于储存电量的薄膜状材料。目前一般采用碳系材料，
但该公司积极利用在半导体晶圆领域积累的技术，以硅替代了碳系材料。与碳系材料相
比，虽然硅的价格高出很多，但拥有储存约10倍电量的特性。如果配备于智能手机，手
机就能长时间使用，因此可以消除频繁充电的烦恼。
信越化学已经开发出试制品，并已开始向国内外电池厂商供货。在2014年之前，
将在群马... 阅读全帖 |
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c*******9
发帖数: 9032 | 21 这个进步还是比较快吧，去年充一半30分钟，今年20分钟，tesla在试验5分钟充电。一
般在家慢慢充的电就够了。
to |
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c*******9
发帖数: 9032 | 23 如何算very little.美国地方大还好点，北京已经没法住了。
produce |
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c*******9
发帖数: 9032 | 24 真实性有侍佐证，电池的潜力还是很大，汽油沒法比。 |
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S**C
发帖数: 2964 | 25 I am not in battery area so I will not comment, although I hear some expert
complaining rechargeable battery over the last 10 years has no progress.
My main argument is regardless battery energy density (unless of course if
they get close to gasoline energy density), the core issue is the shear
amount of energy that need to be charged to the battery in a reasonable
amount of time. |
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w******o
发帖数: 257 | 26 大部分EV是在家里和公司充电，不是加油站。所以你的论断，从加油站每天3000加仑，
85w = 10 gallon, 得出的结论，岂不是扯蛋了？
, |
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S**C
发帖数: 2964 | 27 In lab, you can have 1600 V and 50A. you want to get that in residential
outlet? Tell you what, you can get it fully charged in 5 minutes, it takes 1
MW power. Where do you get that? A ordinary gas station get 16 gas outlet,
prepare 16 MW peak power for equivalent station? |
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S**C
发帖数: 2964 | 28 How long it takes for a garage outlet, 240V/20A to fully charge an 85 kWHr? |
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n********d
发帖数: 7676 | 29 看你们讨论，还以为CTO们都来军版了呢。都是上市公司，你们吵架不如去买股票，用
事实说话。 |
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w******o
发帖数: 257 | 30 你前面不是写了吗？难道要我拿你自己写的内容给你看？
还有tesla车主不是在garage charge吗？有什么问题吗？ |
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S**C
发帖数: 2964 | 31 So they basically use it like a Volt, instead of having an ICE as range
extender also keep the benefit of readily available energy source (gasoline)
, they ask for 4x more battery capacity as range extender and grounded
within xxx miles radius. I won't call it a sound value proposition for the
majority of the public. |
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S**C
发帖数: 2964 | 32 More because of coal fired power plant than cars. Weaker regulation thus
less advanced after treatment system play some role too. |
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c*******9
发帖数: 9032 | 33 Volt里程少很多，tesla对多数人基本够用了。当前也许宝马那样增程式更实用。
gasoline) |
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w******o
发帖数: 257 | 34 不要硬拗了，用英文硬拗也没用。你的逻辑的基础从加油这个环节出发，就是彻底的错
误，要承认，不要硬拗
你前面说到ICE very little population. 我问一句，一边是上亿个汽油发动机，一边
是电车-》电网-》上亿个电动机，那边效率高，那边的污染低？
送你一句话，你有这么好的知识，应该加入革命的队伍，而不是站到反革命的那边。
Knowledge is for Niubility, not for the Zhuangbility.
gasoline) |
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l**t
发帖数: 6971 | 35
produce
我倒，除了汽车公司的人，我看没人会同意你这个“common sense”。 |
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S**C
发帖数: 2964 | 36 It is debatable if Volt battery range hit sweet spot, but Tesla's range is
far overkill for daily life, and not enough for travel. |
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P*C
发帖数: 6109 | 37
in
首先 可以晚上在家里充电 或者白天到单位电桩冲点，每个技术都有自己好的地方和不
好的地方，当年刚出数码相机的时候 那个像素烂的哪能是跟胶片相机比啊，但是今天
还有几个用胶片的，技术都是不断进步的。马车还不用加油呢，吃草就行，不能因为一
个不好的点就全面否定一个新技术的发展 |
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P*C
发帖数: 6109 | 38
发电厂晚上发的电还要倒贴钱进入电网呢，这些能源不利用也是浪费，不如晚上在家冲
电池车 |
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S**C
发帖数: 2964 | 39 The most appealing factor for ICE passenger cars is one can hit the road
whenever/wherever he want to, and he can recharge to extend his range in a
matter of minutes and keep going, with another range at 300-400 miles or
more. All-E vehicles just cannot do that, and there is no realistic way to
do that. Simple as that, convenience and freedom matters. I am ready to
change my view if someone can present his case on that regard.
I did not dispute that ICE vehicles pollute, just a very little, than... 阅读全帖 |
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P*C
发帖数: 6109 | 40
燃油当中好像也有固体颗粒吧，也是会散发到空气中的 |
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P*C
发帖数: 6109 | 41
并不是每个人都要直接上路开三四百麦的，而且每天开那么远，中间晚上需要休息的话
顺便就把电充了也不是什么大不了的事情，这个当然要电桩铺开才行，但这都不是决
定性因素。 |
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S**C
发帖数: 2964 | 42 Give you an example, The European diesel regulation is so tight on
particulate matter (PM) that the PM emitted from the tail pipe is lower than
the atmosphere. |
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P*C
发帖数: 6109 | 43
所以我才说 比亚迪造出来 高端吃不着，低端我们吃不起，回头还是白扯。 |
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P*C
发帖数: 6109 | 44
这个肯定是炒过头了 毫无疑问，不过这不能抹杀它作为一款优秀电动轿车的事实 |
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S**C
发帖数: 2964 | 45 It takes a 240V/20A charger 17.7 hrs to do a full charge (85 kWHr,
equivalent to 10 ga. gasoline generated mechanical power by ICE), assuming
there is no loss in charge. In reality you probably need 20 or more hours.
So you drive 300 miles, need to wait at least 18 hours to hit the road again
. Good luck to sell that idea when the incumbent is far better. |
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l**t
发帖数: 6971 | 46
than
yeah，所以汽车越多，污染越少。 |
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l**t
发帖数: 6971 | 47
again
Tesla网站上说，车库里装的240V twin charger四个多小时可以充满85千瓦时的Model
S。你去告他虚假广告吧，你发财了。 |
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P*C
发帖数: 6109 | 48
again
一般用户 晚上六七点钟回家插上，来来回回上下班对于很多人肯定是足够了。不要硬
整什么长途猛开一天不歇着那种的，汽车刚出来的时候，爱马车的不是还各种笑话吗，
竟然还需要加油，不如吃草。 |
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S**C
发帖数: 2964 | 49 A Volt would suffice for daily commute, or a Volt with a little larger
battery. |
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S**C
发帖数: 2964 | 50 Do a calculation how much current it draws. GM pick 240V/20A for a reason. I
will let you find out yourself.
Model |
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