f*f
发帖数: 121 | 1 In higher stakes game, most players are fairly aggressive. Aggressive poker
is good poker right? Well.. not always true, but unless you are playing
against true maniacs, aggressive is usually right since we just don't make
that many strong hands in Holdem, you have to win your share of the pots
where no one has a strong hand to stay afloat of the rake and blinds.
So back to the topic, why you see AK being played so aggressively preflop by
most good players? Ready?...
Reason #1) It's a damn ... 阅读全帖 |
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W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 2 why are we assuming that people are playing perfect against us? they never
get it in behind after flop? really? 99 folds to a bet post flop on a 10 2
3 board with pot is 120$? This calculations is way off because you never
considered that we get it all in after flop ahead. Even under this condition where people play perfect against us, we STILL make 10$ over long run. The real ev
vs 3 or 4 fish in the pot are much higher.
You might think you understand what 37% means, but I don't think you do... 阅读全帖 |
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W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 3 when you calculate your ev preflop, you should not consider special cases of
which cards will be dealt. The unconditional odds is useful there because
there is no condition exit yet (the cards has not been dealt yet). You
should have a plan post flop for different board texture and action, but
that should not impact your way of thinking preflop. When you change your
play because you are worried about certain board texture, you are doing it
wrong. Because the unconditional odds already covered ... 阅读全帖 |
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w***w
发帖数: 6301 | 4 I had 4 out of 5 times pocket KK beat by AA, in the same situation as above
mentioned.It is now an alarming pattern to me that reraise on preflop raise,
has more chance to be AA.
As I think it over, QQ is not safe to do a reraise, because one A or K on
flop , will give QQ enough trouble.
I mean the main function of reraise on preflop raise, is to make your opponents more pot committed.But QQ is not powerful enough to commit both your opponnent and yourself into the pot, since most preflop raiser |
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G********r
发帖数: 666 | 5 梨叔太客气了, 不是teaching, 是互相交流看法切磋进步.
preflop折KK是higher stake, deeper stack时面对solid player全进时的纪律。
Windstormm的preflop 5 bet Ax/s的pro bet也是针对于此的高级move。在２５NL上，
面对全进可以说几乎没有人preflop折JJ甚至AK以上的牌，因此想５bet的没必要采取一些具有针对性
质的高级策略,被５bet的没必要也折KK, just call away ... |
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f*f
发帖数: 121 | 6 I usually just play ak like AA, except I don't slowplay it preflop, but I
can do that because I play a lot of other hands aggressively preflop, even
deep stack, if you fold AQ type of hand to me preflop, it probably would be
a mistake in the long run |
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w***w
发帖数: 6301 | 7 I had 4 out of 5 times pocket KK beat by AA, in the same situation as above
mentioned.It is now an alarming pattern to me that reraise on preflop raise,
has more chance to be AA.
As I think it over, QQ is not safe to do a reraise, because one A or K on
flop , will give QQ enough trouble.
I mean the main function of reraise on preflop raise, is to make your opponents more pot committed.But QQ is not powerful enough to commit both your opponnent and yourself into the pot, since most preflop raiser |
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w***w
发帖数: 6301 | 8 Preflop 3X. Flop 5X.
在网上打的好象没有live这么凶.
Preflop raise一般是3X,4X.再高就没人call,除非有特别好的牌. |
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w***w
发帖数: 6301 | 9 I just watch 插一腿's vedio playing $3/$6 cash game at fulltilt.
http://www.screencast.com/t/S8mHwaBY
But the link no longer works now.
He is regarded as playing too aggressive in MTT and SNG, but in cash game he
played more conservative than I thought, more conservative even than my
play.
At the button he had AJ but folded to a 3.5 BB preflop raise.Even I would call.
BTW, he played well and made $300 into $1200 in one hour.
In another hand, he had pocket AA, raised to $21 preflop and a guy with KK |
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w***w
发帖数: 6301 | 10 Kao,今天打到现在,只见到一个reraise on preflop raise.
It was me and a guy both with AA and raised back and forth until allin.
LOL.
As I said before, people here don't reraise preflop with AK,QQ, or even KK.They just call. |
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G********r
发帖数: 666 | 11 Either fold PREFLOP if you believed your opponent had AA/KK, or shove on
that flop if you gave him a lower range. What flops were you hoping for
after calling a solid player's 4 bet preflop, if you intended to fold on a
King rag-rag board? |
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f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 12 hehe, of course, in case 1, 5 handed, KK wins 37.23% times, right?
you're assuming NO more betting post flop, just like alan's example, AA vs.
9 all-in hands preflop is the optimal case in the long term.
but here, KK is doomed to lose ANOTHER $100 post flop in 5-way most of time
(if not more), this changes the whole thing.
compared with $30 preflop, $100 is not small money at all that can be
ignored.
understand what this % mean in the graph you posted? |
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f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 13 no, the biggest problem with your "unconditional" calc is you're trying to
see your EV PREFLOP and BEFORE the hand is over. you're using a static model
with no more bettings. however, your remaining $100 and 4 callers are the
"conditions" in your "unconditional" calc.
i highly suggest you read alan's question and you'll see. a lot of
discussions on 2+2 too, actually the optimal number of callers is 8, not 9,
some math guy proved, but it's trival.
yes, if we got all-in preflop with KK, we want ev... 阅读全帖 |
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W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 14 i am just trying to answer your question :
"but what do we do now on the flop with $100, act first? how often do 77/99
hero call behind you with only a lonely pair?"
does it answer your question?
for your other questions, i already answered them in previous posts.. not going to repeat~~~~ These two hands have
very similar patterns. If you fail to see them. I can't help you~~~~ Little hint: what comes on the flop is not important for
your preflop action. But my example should tell you what you ... 阅读全帖 |
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w***w
发帖数: 6301 | 15 Preflop 3X. Flop 5X.
在网上打的好象没有live这么凶.
Preflop raise一般是3X,4X.再高就没人call,除非有特别好的牌. |
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w***w
发帖数: 6301 | 16 I just watch 插一腿's vedio playing $3/$6 cash game at fulltilt.
http://www.screencast.com/t/S8mHwaBY
But the link no longer works now.
He is regarded as playing too aggressive in MTT and SNG, but in cash game he
played more conservative than I thought, more conservative even than my
play.
At the button he had AJ but folded to a 3.5 BB preflop raise.Even I would call.
BTW, he played well and made $300 into $1200 in one hour.
In another hand, he had pocket AA, raised to $21 preflop and a guy with KK |
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w***w
发帖数: 6301 | 17 Kao,今天打到现在,只见到一个reraise on preflop raise.
It was me and a guy both with AA and raised back and forth until allin.
LOL.
As I said before, people here don't reraise preflop with AK,QQ, or even KK.They just call. |
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w***w
发帖数: 6301 | 18 Not AA,KK at the same time.One each time.
I raised preflop, and KK(or AA) called, other folded. |
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w***w
发帖数: 6301 | 19 I preflop raised 3.5 BB with pocket KK, someone reraised me 3 times my bet.
I think for a while and folded.
I think the chance he was AA was high enough for me to fold, and if he had pocket QQ, should not do this( unless he play very loose).If I call, he is likely to bet like 10-15 times BB on flop( no matter he was AA or QQ), and that would be tough for me to decide.
Was I wrong? |
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w***w
发帖数: 6301 | 20 Yes, I noticed this difference.
For online cash game, the standard preflop raise is 3.5 BB.
I read from you guys' posts that live poker has much higher raise. That's
what I meant the same action has different meaning in online poker vs live
poker.
I think it is due to slowness in dealing cards in live poker.Online you may
play 5 times more hand than in live poker for the same period. So you can
always give up some opportunities and wait for the next one. In live poker
you just can't afford let |
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c****u
发帖数: 3277 | 21 well, AJ is a major sucker to call a tight player's preflop raise...
You may end up losing a lot of money if you flop an ace or J. I'd call
a raise with AJ only against aggressive or super aggressive players.
he
call. |
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w***w
发帖数: 6301 | 22 Yes, I read opponents as specific hand like AA,but in a probability sense.I
mean AA but it is like 70% or 80%, 30% or 20% weaker.I think it function the
same as you put a range. It work for me well.
Where you play? I find some pokerrooms people bluff a lot more, in that
situation,reraise on preflop raise don't have to mean something.
Here in ultimatebet, at $.25/$.5, people usually play straight,I mean they
play what they have, bluff less.So I can read out their hands well, actually
there are ve |
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w***w
发帖数: 6301 | 23 I played there since Friday, 80% reraise on preflop raise were AA.
I was beat with KK by AA 5, 6 times, all lost buyin.
I understand it would not be the case in other places.
Another feature here, is if you sit at button, the 3 or 4 players check
round on flop before you,and you bet a BB, all fold.
It works about 70% time,
so I usually like to call at the button, no matter what my hand is. |
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W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 24 Checked my PT. For the past 10 hand preflop all in with AA. I lost more
than i won.. I need to reconsider my way of play.. |
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n******1
发帖数: 4742 | 25 被bad beat一把而且， 如果能选，我选我每把都是AA，每把别人都和我preflop all
in |
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t*********d
发帖数: 3398 | 26 最好当天不玩了。
周六在big blinds拿到 AA, 前面MP bet 3bb, CO and small blinds called. I
pushed all in with 120BB. MP and CO folded, SB called quickly with 80BB.
SB showed 67 off set!
Flop 345!!!
然后就是AA preflop all in 输给 KK, AA postflop 输给33, etc
然后400+ bb很快就没了。
妈的。 |
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m*********4
发帖数: 94 | 27 今天两次aa preflop allin 输给AK， 不过最后还是赢回来了，比lz运气好点 |
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g********r
发帖数: 1458 | 28 一直有个想法，觉得网上扑克的网站大牌的概率较高，其实做个软件不难，完全按照同
样的概率抽牌，头张牌抽到的概率是1/52，第二张1/51， etc（然后按照人数发牌就完
了）. 但是我觉得，比如ftp，经常是大牌（straight and above)连连，所以preflop
all in 是不是要保守些。
这是不是很多online高手玩casino poker需要适应一下的原因？请高手指教。 |
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W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 29 Reading the book non-limit holdem theory and practice. It appears to me that
they advocate more limping than raising preflop. The reason is that it is
better to keep inferior hand in to win a bigger pot than to win a mere
blinds. Does it make sense? Half of the hand they recomment limp, i would
even raise with. i only run vpip 13 7 or so. so are they suggesting to have
something 18 6 for vpipd?
Any comments? |
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W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 30 i do not recommend folding KK preflop like ever..
but this is an exception. I feel he has AA >80% of the time here.
1) I 3 bet EP vs utg raise = Super super strength
2) I do not like the sizing of his 3 bet at all.
If he only had QQ or AK here, I can only say "great job, clueless donk" and
give him the pot. I will get him back in the future. |
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W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 31 very good point.. but considering people at those stake are hyper aggressive and 3 bet and 4 bet so often preflop, I think it is a 4 bet shove with AK most of the time at those stake.. and be prepared to be looked up by pocket deuces and lose the coin flip...lol
hehe. |
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D*********l
发帖数: 493 | 32 I started to play real money only for a few months($3 or $4 buy in
tornaments). By following your rule, I will 99.9% not likely to make final
table. Preflop Kx seriously is not even good enough to make a bluff towards
the end.
. |
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W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 33 if you don't go broke with TPTK with AK post flop, then you should not
calling that big 4 bet at all preflop. You can either fold or 5 bet shove
him. |
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W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 34 5 bet all in to fold out KK preflop is what a pro would do. |
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W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 35 only regs like to spazz around preflop |
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h*******s
发帖数: 3932 | 36 昨晚看到有个著名牌手（Erick Lindgren还是谁）提到，现金局中偷盲不是那么重要，
preflop raise主要是build up pot（context是6max cash），我觉得有点道理。现金
局盲注不会涨，基本都是deep stack，偷盲应该不是game的主要部分。
rush里的偷盲相对容易一些，但也不像一开始那样容易了，好些人会对late position
raiser进行light 3bet。如果3x偷盲，3次成功2次多一点才break even。如果2x偷盲，
又容易leak，除非mix得很好或者基本采用2x raise。
你们喜欢2x raise么？我发现在NL 25里面这样做的基本分为三种牌：
1. EP: small pair or suited connector
2. LP: steal
3. Any position: monster
所以，2x被3bet后，range一般变窄很多，有leak之嫌。而且就偷盲目的来说，2x成功
率并不高。我还是更喜欢一律3x open raise。
还有人比较creative，有时会raise到2.4x，我一般会留... 阅读全帖 |
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h*******s
发帖数: 3932 | 37 我想analyze一些自己偷盲的频率和成功率，不过没想好怎么做。
可以用的几个filter是：
1. open raise + not see flop (win or fold preflop)
2. position? (MP + LP + SB)
这里面当然有强牌raise，没想好是不是要过滤掉一些。从别人的角度来看，他是不管
你强牌或弱牌的，只要open raise就是偷盲，呵呵。
,
have
pattern
K9o |
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W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 38 随便写在zhiyoucheng的..这也帖一下~~~
3 bet, 也就是在有人preflop raise 的情况下加注. 这是一个NLH里极其赚钱的手段,
简单原因是因为你有很多fold equity. 如果对手每次都call, flop 后miss 就fold.
长期你肯定赚钱, 因为他miss 可能比make 大得多~~如何对应3 bet 也是一个很大的课
题. 很多时候的共识是在被人3 bet 的情况下, 基本都是-ev,除非你恰好有AA, 主要
讨论是如何减少-ev 的程度. 我不讨论这个问题, 只是想说明为十么3 bet 那么
profitable.
3 bet 分几个阶段, 根据牌手的不同水平. 这和thinking level 很象, level 越高,
对手的level 也要相应高, 否则反而适得其反.
level 1 : 从不3 bet. 这个低级别的选手不懂3 bet, 有十么牌都call. 基本属于
不会打.
level 2: 会3 bet purely for value, 基本只3 bet AA KK QQ. AK 对于他们都属于
drawin... 阅读全帖 |
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f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 39 haha, cohagen2000 he's not LAG, he plays 4 100NL + 4 50NL, which is
overwhelmingly fast, so he plays preflop hard with ok hands like AT/A9 alike
and over plays flop in some cases too if got resistance.
against him, it's really not a good idea to follow his style and go strong
early, there're tons of post flop plays against him, especailly in position.
for example, AK 3/4-betting him and getting in is not optimal, i guess. with
that many of tables going on, he just can't think long and play till ... 阅读全帖 |
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L****n
发帖数: 490 | 40 MP1 ($72.20)
MP2 ($147.75)
MP3 ($100)
CO ($117.20)
Button ($41.40)
Hero (SB) ($248.20)
BB ($104.30)
UTG ($86.30)
UTG+1 ($49)
Preflop: Hero is SB with [Kc Kh],
3 folds, MP2 bets $3.50, 3 folds, Hero raises to $12, 1 fold, MP2 raises to
$30, 1 fold
Total pot: $25 | Rake: $0
MP2 is tangokailua. Anyone has read on this guy. Is this an okay fold.
It's kinda deep and tangokailua seems nitty to me. |
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f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 41 no, your EV calc is flawed because you over simply the situations and don't
take implied odds into account at all.
your model is based on all bettings are done preflop, then KK win xx.xx% in
situation A, and yy.yy% in B, ... etc.
remember long time ago i asked a question from alan's book (poker winners
are different), if you got AA and go all-in pre-flop, how many callers do
you want? the rationally correct answer, 9 or all of them. your EV calc is
exactly based on the same theory.
but implied o... 阅读全帖 |
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f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 42 if the betting is not done preflop, of course implied odds is the key here (
or in poker) and why i said in the beginning his $30 limp raise is very
fishy, you never invite 4 guys behind you with KK here with great odds, and
the winning % pics i posted exactly explained why.
30$ and $100 behind, he causes troubles to himself with bad sizing.
.
if
is
you |
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p**********1
发帖数: 1458 | 43 first I don't know about the commitment threshold here, my guess is
that we are not committed yet. if that is the case, then we can play
it in a simple way and still win some money.
consider the ATdd KK 99 77 case, if KK fold on Axx flop and get it in
on any other flops, ATdd get it in on Axx flop and fold otherwise,
99/77 only get it in if flop a set; then KK show a decent profit,
assuming every1 has $100 left, the pot is $120 preflop. I am not sure
my number is right, anyway here it goes:
Axx ... 阅读全帖 |
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f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 44 no, you are telling whether it's a good play only by the preflop winning %
and EV.
the logic is flawed because it's like you want to pick up (as many as
possible) apples pre flop, but totally run yourself into the risk of losing
a watermelon post flop.
also, you forgot you're the first one to act post flop! $100 into $150, pls
tell us what you would do with 4 guys behind you? check or bet?
and guess what? it's not others "suddenly" play perfect against you, you let
them do so in the first place.... 阅读全帖 |
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p**********1
发帖数: 1458 | 45 I think the SPR is very good for our KK in this hand. If we are a lot deeper
stack, then implied odds make our life harder.
windstormm's approach of gradually building the pot to keep villain's whole
range makes it pretty much a preflop all-in situation, which is very +EV. I
think this is why he keeps saying it is like unconditional probability. the
pot is so big, it is hard for villains to fold to your $30ish small bet otf,
especially if their 99/77 is second pair or something otf.
losing
pls
... 阅读全帖 |
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W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 46 我一直说AKs preflop 不能fold, 这把也算是破例了，讲讲我fold 的原因。
这把的主角是个老黑， 先讲讲前面几手牌。
牌1，
几个limper, 他也limp mp. 我在button KJo. easy raise 15$. 左面的tight fish
(the QQ guy), pop 60$ with 60$ left, fold 了几个，我是没法call的, 准备fold, 结果
action 到老黑停住了，tank 了半天，最后fold 了AK. 我也fold, tight fish show
AA.
牌2,ep 唯一的super fish on the table raise 15, 3 caller, 包括老黑, 我button,
一看AA, raise 60$, super fish 磨磨唧唧, call, super fish 筹码不少,有300, 老
黑又tank了至少一分钟,他有大概两百. call. flop 822, two toned board. 都check
到我,我想了想打多少能既有value from flush draw, ... 阅读全帖 |
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p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 47 +1
that black guy is quite a fish, no need to gamble with AKs without
much dead money in the pot. we can find better spot.
For deep stack NL live game, when I openned with AK and got 3 bet, I
fold it preflop a lot to a lot regs that I am familiar with. These regs
are very solid and their range of 3 betting to me is pretty much JJ+. If I
hit A or K, I can not get any action unless I am beat.
fish
, 结果
show
button,
check |
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d******u
发帖数: 385 | 48 最近两次遇到preflop QQ early position raise (100 BB) 然后被SB reraise，都是
在后面有caller的情况下，我这两次都选择了fold.不知道是不是正确，或者要再
reraise回去？如果这么做的话，基本就是pot committed.
大家高见？ |
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n***a
发帖数: 274 | 49 local 小casino，鱼儿游啊游，打出了很多令人目瞪口呆的牌
一开始还比较正常，preflop raise to $10一般也就两三个caller，偶尔还可以直接拿
下。随着夜深，桌子开始疯狂起来。
1:
limp to LP short stack raise to $12, 4 callers,
flop 994r, check to short stack w/ AA went all in w/ 45$,
short stack limper 1, all in ~60$: K9o!
limper 2, all in~85$: 95s!!!
2:
2 limpers, 一个玩得还不错的deep stack大哥bb直接raise到35$，both limpers
called,
flop: Jd6c6d, bb check, EP bet $25, LP fold, bb蛋疼call，
turn: 7c, bb check, EP bet $100 with $200 behind,bb蛋疼call,
river: 3c, bb check, EP check
bb sh... 阅读全帖 |
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n***a
发帖数: 274 | 50 wasn't bluffing hand 5, based on preflop action, he had no pairs, which left
him w/ K or 4, and i had 4 w/ A kicker。
either k or 4, he could bet into me after i checked the turn, thinking i was
betting on A high on the flop.
on |
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