y****i
发帖数: 2108 | 1 方对肖传国的xiao procedure的质疑完全合理。感兴趣的可以google一下,相信从新闻
报道中就可以得出一些结论。注意看英文报道，比较公正些。
简单地说，就是肖在中国草菅人命，把本来应该在大白鼠身上的实验直接用在病人身上
，把处于实验阶段的手术用来营利，然后对结果夸大其词。国外同行请肖去做的同样的
手术结果明显离87%相差太远。
比较可笑可悲的是，肖传国在蹲了半年大牢之后，现在又宣称手术完全不受影响。难道
中国的行医执照没有吊销一说吗？中国人就这么命贱吗？
在中国打假，真的需要勇气。挺周老虎的刘里远朱巨龙还在上窜下跳，魏于全一伙还在
瞄准一切机会反扑，唐骏还是那个唐骏，韩寒也还会是拥有上千万粉丝的韩寒。民智不
开啊民智不开啊。 | q********n
发帖数: 3248 | | y****i
发帖数: 2108 | 3 感兴趣的可以看看这个一年前的貌似中国人写的总结: What unregulated medicine
looks like: History of Xiao procedure
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/02/10/835322/-What-unregulat
medicine-looks-like:-History-of-Xiao-procedure
TUE FEB 09, 2010 AT 09:11 PM PST
What unregulated medicine looks like: History of Xiao procedure
byxgzFollow
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The ability to pee on your own is something we take for granted. But
for a
large group of people, this is only a dream for them. They are the
patients
with spinal cord injuries and those born with spinal bifida. A widely
reported surgery procedure, Xiao procedure, named after its inventor
Dr.
Chuan-Guo Xiao of China, is claimed to offer a cure. But does it
really work?
Dr. Xiao invented this procedure while working in the US with a grant
from
the NIH, but he was not able to run a full clinical trial of his
procedure
in the US. From 1999 to 2006, after spending $2.4 million of NIH grant
(
Grant Number: 5R01DK053063-05), he was only able to report on two
patients
in a preliminary report in 2005. We never heard anything more about
that
study.
The largely unregulated Chinese health care market gave him a much
better
opportunity. In 1995 Dr. Xiao found support from the leaders of the
Pingdingshan Coal Mine Hospital in Henan province. According to an
article
in China News Weekly, "'Artificial Reflex Arc', Who can explain it?"
(in
Chinese),
In 1995, Xiao began the clinical research. His first choice was the
Pingdingshan Coal Mine Hospital in Henan province. The reason that he
did
not first do the trial in the US, was because that "in the US
application
for grants is very slow, at least one and a half to two years. In
addition,
the US has much stricter approval process for clinical trials. Even
for oral
drugs you would need truckloads of paperwork. It's much harder for
surgical
procedures. Further, I am a foreigner, it would be even more
difficult."
"At that time, the head of Pingdingshan Coal Mine Health Bureau was
visiting
the US. He heard that I was working on this, so invited me to their
hospital. I went and visited them. The biggest advantage the hospital
offered was that all the patients were miners so we could keep long
term
follow-up on them."
According to Xiao, the clinical study at Pingdingshan Hospital "did
not
require approval from the Ministry of Health, only needed approval
from the
hospital's ethics committee."
Clearly, the motivation for Dr. Xiao to move back to China was the
lack of
regulation and oversight. Dr. Xiao operated on 15 paralyzed patients
there
in the two years starting from 1999, and claimed success on 10
patients, a
nearly 70% success rate.
Things snowballed from that point on. Dr. Xiao opened a privately run
hospital, Shenyuan Hospital, in Henan province with the sole purpose
of
carrying out this operation. According to some of the doctors, the
Xiao
procedure have been operated on over ten thousand patients (not all of
them
at that hospital). Some of them were desperate Americans who traveled
to
China and paid $30k to $40k for the operation. Dr. Xiao claims over
80%
success rate for these operations. The hospital has since been closed
but
the operations by Dr. Xiao are continued at Tongji Medical School in
Wuhan.
Today, two hospitals in the US, the Beaumont Hospitals in Michigan,
and the
All Children's Hospital in Florida, are conducting clinical trials on
children based on the data from China provided by Dr. Xiao. Several
other
hospitals are also considering starting their own trials. According to
Dr.
Xiao, the benefit of the surgery will not be seen until about a year
after
the surgery. Some patients may take even longer.
Recent news reports out of China, however, have cast some serious
doubts on
the reliability of the clinical data there. Two mothers of the
children who
had the surgeries at Shenyuan Hospital filed lawsuits against the
hospital.
According to this Science News report (in Chinese),
With the help from her parents, Little Fang (pseudonym) comes into the
room
with her crippled legs.
She is one of the patients who have had the surgeries of "Xiao's
Artificial
Reflex Arc Procedure". Her situation was not improved even got worse
after
she received this procedure one and a half years ago. Thus now, she
came to
Beijing and is looking for further treatment.
Little Fang is not the only victim of the Xiao procedure. On October
16, the
mothers of other two children with spina bifida filed lawsuits
against
Henan Shenyuan Urological Surgery Hospital. They complained that the
incontinence of their children were not improved three years after the
Xiao
procedure. Moreover, none of the patients who underwent the same
surgery
during the same period were cured either, which is much different to
the
success rate of 85% claimed by the hospital in their propaganda. The
worst
is that the procedure resulted in serious complications: the two
children
got atrophy and deformity in the left legs.
The lawyer working for the plaintiffs reported more problems (link in
Chinese):
Peng Jian, the lawyer, also found another inexplicable contradiction.
The Neuro-urologic Surgery Research Center at Zhengzhou University
issued a
certificate to Xiao Chuanguo on Feb. 28, 2007, for his application to
academician. The certificate claimed: Starting from Jan. of 2006, the
Neuro-
urological Surgery Research Center at Zhengzhou University had applied
the "
artificial somatic-autonomic reflex arc" technique invented by
Professor
Xiao Chuanguo to 117 patients with neurogenic bladder caused by spina
bifida
or meningomyelocele. Sixty cases were followed up for more than eight
months. 85% of the patients have recovered normal bladder and bowel
functions.
Peng Jian found out, however, that it was reported on Aug. 14 of 2006
by
Dahe Newspaper, "Yesterday, Little Shanshan received the operation at
Zhengzhou Shenyuan Urological Surgery Hospital ...... the operation
for
Little Shanshan was the first case in Henan ...... Dong Ziming, from
Zhengzhou University and the dean of Fundamental Medical School, said:
Shanshan's operation made a Henan record -- the first 'artificial
reflex arc
' in Henan. And Zhengzhou Shenyuan Hospital made a national record --
this
was the first, in our nation, interdisciplinary neuro-urological
surgery
hospital. It was a creation resulted from the effort to integrate
research
and clinical practice in Zhengzhou University."
In other words, the center conducted the first "Xiao reflex arc"
operation
as late as Aug. 13, 2006. It was merely six and a half months away
from the
time when the center provided the certificate of cure rate for Xiao
Chuanguo
, which evidently contradicted with its claim that "Sixty cases were
followed up for more than eight months".
Peng Jian and others sought out and visited more than a hundred
patients who
took the "Xiao reflex arc" operation at Zhengzhou Shenyuan Urological
Surgery Hospital between Aug. 2006 and the first six months of 2007.
They
found no case regained the bladder and bowel control. Instead, the
conditions of many patients deteriorated after the operation. Judging
from
the times of their operations, these patients should at least count
for a
considerable portion of the "117 cases" mentioned in the certificate
issued
by the center. This calls into serious question the hospital's claim
that "
85% of the patients have recovered the bladder and bowel control".
One reporter investigating the case traveled to rural counties
spanning
several provinces to see firsthand the results of the operation on
patients.
What she found was shocking (link in Chinese).
The boy patient in Meishan county could still walk by himself and even
climbed stairs in the hospital before his surgery, in spite of a bit
of
deformity in his legs. But after having the Xiao procedure in Sep.
2007, his
legs with parts of nerves cut off started to fester. Two years later,
both
of his legs had to be amputated at a local hospital of Meishan.
The parents of this boy cherished great hope before the surgery
because the
hospital had promised them a success rate of 85%, which means most of
the
patients could get cured. They trusted the doctors because the doctors
were
kind and looked very trustful. After the boy was already on the
operation
bed, the parents were asked to sign a consent form right before the
surgery,
as if it were just a routine procedure. No explanation was offered,
so they
signed the form without understanding the risk of serious
complications at
all.
The second child in Shanxi province could walk as well before the
surgery,
but is disabled now. After the surgery, the muscles of his feet and
legs
started to atrophy and now his lower extremities are apparently
deformed.
One year ago before the surgery, it costed 1000 Chinese Yuan a year to
buy
diapers for his incontinence. But now, not only his legs are disabled,
but
also his previous incontinence gets more severe. In 2008, he had a
medical
examination in Jishuitan hospital in Beijing, and was told by the
doctor
that it was impossible to restore to the same status as before by
performing
any further surgery on his legs.
The third kid in Deyang County was thought being lucky by his mother
initially after the Xiao procedure. The kid was still very young and
the
case was not very severe before surgery. She was happy that the
disease
seemed to be cured a little and at least did not get worse as others
after
surgeries. But half a year later, the leg which was operated started
to
atrophy and became thinner.
......
The last one in Shanxi province, his father was a coal miner and is
laid-off
now. This family is living in the cave of a mountain and has no
heating in
this cold winter. His father raises 30 pigs and needs to save the
heating
for the piggy cubs, otherwise they will get sick in the cold. He has
finished high school and wanted to make the justice to be done as
well.
These patients are preparing for suing the hospital who misleads them
for
the Xiao procedure with misleading and false statements on the
surgical
risks and effectiveness.
The English translation of all the reports are collected here.
Do we want that kind of health care in the US? | p***1
发帖数: 272 | 4 请注明从哪儿看到"国外同行请肖去做的同样的手术"? 肖在美国没有行医执照, 谁敢让
他做?
肖手术， 现在在美国算临床３－４期， 要随访１－５年后才知道最终结果．
肖利用学霸地位， 钻了空子， 监管部门才是问题所在．
国内拿人直接试手术的， 他既不是第一个， 也不是最后一个， 有的成功了， 现
在就当官了． 有的就废了．
美国是靠强大监管部门，捞黑心钱也有， 当年肝移植丑闻使原来肝移植鼻足医院元气
大伤．
质疑合理， 任何公民都有权； 打假那是专业部门事．
【在 y****i 的大作中提到】
: 方对肖传国的xiao procedure的质疑完全合理。感兴趣的可以google一下,相信从新闻
: 报道中就可以得出一些结论。注意看英文报道，比较公正些。
: 简单地说，就是肖在中国草菅人命，把本来应该在大白鼠身上的实验直接用在病人身上
: ，把处于实验阶段的手术用来营利，然后对结果夸大其词。国外同行请肖去做的同样的
: 手术结果明显离87%相差太远。
: 比较可笑可悲的是，肖传国在蹲了半年大牢之后，现在又宣称手术完全不受影响。难道
: 中国的行医执照没有吊销一说吗？中国人就这么命贱吗？
: 在中国打假，真的需要勇气。挺周老虎的刘里远朱巨龙还在上窜下跳，魏于全一伙还在
: 瞄准一切机会反扑，唐骏还是那个唐骏，韩寒也还会是拥有上千万粉丝的韩寒。民智不
: 开啊民智不开啊。
| y****i
发帖数: 2108 | 5 有两家医院在做clinical trial: All Children Hospital in Tampa, Florida和
William Beaumont Hospital in Royal Oak, Michigan。这个trial的批准和肖宣传的
在中国数千病例85%的有效率有关。当然美国实验病例数是严格控制的（印象里在10例
左右），根本和国内上万的手术病例不能比。初期结果副作用非常明显（下肢瘫痪），
治疗有效病例少的可怜。
肖没有行医执照，但是可以在台下，由美国医生来做。
有些美国报纸欢欣鼓舞，是因为死马当作活马医的心理吧。但是只要看一看Urology专
业杂志的结果就知道，结果非常令人沮丧。 | p***1
发帖数: 272 | 6 那是过去２期．William Beaumont Hospital 又拿到钱， 重新评估，４期结束后，
中国数据就彻底没用啦．那就变美国的啦．
专业杂志对有争议文章， 都会贴两方面意见， 很正常．ＪＵ 把这发出来，已表明
立场了， 把所有文章读完就知道了．
http://projectreporter.nih.gov/project_info_description.cfm?aid
【在 y****i 的大作中提到】
: 有两家医院在做clinical trial: All Children Hospital in Tampa, Florida和
: William Beaumont Hospital in Royal Oak, Michigan。这个trial的批准和肖宣传的
: 在中国数千病例85%的有效率有关。当然美国实验病例数是严格控制的（印象里在10例
: 左右），根本和国内上万的手术病例不能比。初期结果副作用非常明显（下肢瘫痪），
: 治疗有效病例少的可怜。
: 肖没有行医执照，但是可以在台下，由美国医生来做。
: 有些美国报纸欢欣鼓舞，是因为死马当作活马医的心理吧。但是只要看一看Urology专
: 业杂志的结果就知道，结果非常令人沮丧。
| D*******a
发帖数: 1723 | 7 不明白你为什么撒谎呢，明明是"89% had variable weakness of lower extremity
muscle group at 1 month.:翻译成中文是"第一个月时有不同程度的下肢肌无力"
到了你嘴里，居然成了"下肢瘫痪"
At 1 year 7 patients (78%) had a reproducible increase in bladder pressure
with stimulation of the dermatome. Two patients were able to stop
catheterization and all safely stopped antimuscarinics. No patient achieved
complete urinary continence. The majority of subjects reported improved
bowel function. One patient was continent of stool at baseline and 4 were
continent at 1 year. Of the patients 89% had variable weakness of lower
extremity muscle group at 1 month. One child had persistent foot drop and
the remainder returned to baseline by 12 months.
【在 y****i 的大作中提到】
: 有两家医院在做clinical trial: All Children Hospital in Tampa, Florida和
: William Beaumont Hospital in Royal Oak, Michigan。这个trial的批准和肖宣传的
: 在中国数千病例85%的有效率有关。当然美国实验病例数是严格控制的（印象里在10例
: 左右），根本和国内上万的手术病例不能比。初期结果副作用非常明显（下肢瘫痪），
: 治疗有效病例少的可怜。
: 肖没有行医执照，但是可以在台下，由美国医生来做。
: 有些美国报纸欢欣鼓舞，是因为死马当作活马医的心理吧。但是只要看一看Urology专
: 业杂志的结果就知道，结果非常令人沮丧。
| y****i
发帖数: 2108 | | D*******a
发帖数: 1723 | 9 如果老美没造假的话，那肖传国的那套东西还是很牛逼啊
【在 p***1 的大作中提到】
: 那是过去２期．William Beaumont Hospital 又拿到钱， 重新评估，４期结束后，
: 中国数据就彻底没用啦．那就变美国的啦．
: 专业杂志对有争议文章， 都会贴两方面意见， 很正常．ＪＵ 把这发出来，已表明
: 立场了， 把所有文章读完就知道了．
: http://projectreporter.nih.gov/project_info_description.cfm?aid
| y****i
发帖数: 2108 | 10 2011年1月的commentary review.
把结论部分给你摘出来：
The important message 。。。 is that the functional results 。。。are
less
favorable 。。。compared with the excellent reports of Xiao [1].
only one of eight sacral nerves innervating the bladder with at best
20–30%
of the total sacral parasympathetic outflow to the urinary bladder is
activated on stimulation for initiation of micturition.
The authors’ plea is noteworthy, to continue scientific evaluation of
the
risks and the benefits of this procedure before it may be taken
enthusiastically into clinical practice on a broad base.
副作用是下肢肌无力，足下垂，因为手术中把下肢外周神经切断了。
更新的研究结果没有再出现。
这样一个没有定论的出于实验阶段的手术被肖吹嘘成87%”有效率“，并大量应用于病
人身上（thousands），作为牟利手段，你们都认为是正常的不应该质疑？OK.你们继续
吧。
这种事也只能发生在中国。
========
European Urology
Volume 59, Issue 1, January 2011, Pages 173–175
Re: Outcomes of Lumbar to Sacral Nerve Rerouting for Spina Bifida
J.W. Thüroff
Department of Urology, University Medical Center, Johannes Gutenberg
University, Mainz, Germany
Available online 23 November 2010.
http://dx.doi.org.ezproxy.xxxxx.edu/10.1016/j.eururo.2010.10.01
How to Cite or Link Using DOI
Permissions & Reprints
Peters KM, Girdler B, Turzewski C, et al
J Urol 2010;148:702–8
Expert's summary:
Xiao reported an 87% success rate for regaining bladder control after
lumbar
to sacral nerve rerouting in spina bifida children in China [1]. The
paper
by Peters et al reports a US prospective study of nine cases that were
operated with the aid of Xiao and thoroughly followed up over 1 yr.
Although
seven of nine patients were able to increase bladder pressure by
cutaneous
stimulation of the respective lumbar dermatome, only two patients were
able
to stop catheterization and no patient achieved complete urinary
continence.
Bowel function, however, was improved in the majority of patients.
Eight of
nine patients had initial weakness of lower-extremity muscles after
lumbar
ventral spinal root transection, and in one child, foot drop was
persistent
at 12 mo.
The authors conclude that despite the proof of principle that bladder
contractions after lumbar to sacral nerve rerouting can be elicited
and
reproduced, the clinical validity for restoration of urinary
continence and
micturition was lower than previously published by Xiao [1]. Peters et
al
suggest that the procedure should be reserved only for research
protocols
with rigorous analysis of the risk–benefit ratio.
Expert's comments:
Surgical cross-innervation, an intriguing concept for bypassing
damaged
spinal cord segments, was applied by Xiao in 92 spinal cord injury
patients,
of whom 88% regained bladder control 1 yr postoperatively, and later
on in
110 children with spina bifida, with an 87% success rate after 1 yr
[1]. The
concept of the surgery is to establish a new reflex arc of “skin–
central
nervous system–bladder” by transecting an intact lumbar ventral spinal
root (usually L4 or L5) above the level of the spinal cord lesion and
anastomosing it to a transected sacral ventral spinal root (usually S2
or S3
) affected from or below the spinal cord lesion. The respective dorsal
lumbar spinal root, where the ventral lumbar spinal root is
transected, is
left intact. After reinnervation, the patient is able to stimulate the
reinnervated sacral nerve and elicit a bladder contraction by
scratching the
skin of the respective lumbar dermatome. This has been done in
hyperreflexive neurogenic bladders (“decentralized” with an intact but
out
of control sacral reflex arc) with detrusor–sphincter dyssynergia
(DSD)
and in areflexive bladders in which a sacral lesion had compromised
the
sacral reflex arc.
The neuroanatomic foundation and the effects of this type of surgical
cross-
innervation raise several concerns.
Neuroanatomy
The lumbar ventral spinal roots, one of which is used in this
procedure as
donor, are mixed nerves with predominant somatic and some autonomic (
sympathetic and parasympathetic) outflow. Transection thus affects the
somatic end organs of L4/L5, so respective lower-extremity muscle
weakness
is to be expected.
The sacral ventral spinal roots, one of which is used in this
procedure as
recipient, are also mixed nerves with somatic and autonomic outflow.
In
humans, S2 has a predominant somatic component (eg, innervating pelvic
floor
muscles) and S3 has a predominant autonomic component comprising the
parasympathetic outflow to bladder and bowel, but it also has a
somatic
component. Bladder innervation arises from the sacral segments S2–S5
with
predominance of S3 but a considerable individual amount of variation
among
the segments [2] and [3]. This variation is greater in spina bifida
patients
due to inherent neuroanatomic abnormalities compared with spinal cord
injury patients.
Since autonomic innervation of the pelvic organs, specifically the
bladder,
is bilateral, all unilateral interventions are less effective than
bilateral
ones. This has been clearly established by electrical stimulation
procedures, such as the technique of neuromodulation [4].
Expected effects of surgical cross-innervation
Transection of the lumbar ventral spinal root donor
Lumbar ventral spinal roots have predominant somatic outflow. When
transected, the somatic motor innervation of this specific spinal root
to
its effector muscles remains interrupted. If other spinal segments are
less
involved or are not involved in innervation of a specific muscle and
thus
cannot take over function to some degree, muscle paralysis will be
permanent
, as in the one reported case with persistent foot drop.
Transection of the sacral ventral spinal root recipient
In cases of a hyperreflexive detrusor, transection of the sacral
ventral
spinal root recipient with its autonomic motor outflow to the bladder
and
rectum will cause by itself some improvement of hyperreflexia due to (
partial) motor denervation [5]. However, this effect is limited due to
unilateral transection of one sacral ventral spinal root only (S2 or
S3) and
variable due to the selection of one root or another and a variable
abundance of the unilateral sacral autonomic outflow in one of these
ventral
roots.
Because somatic fibers to pelvic floor muscles and external sphincters
are
transected, some improvement of pelvic floor spasticity and DSD is to
be
expected due to paralysis of the respective motor units. However, this
effect is limited for the same reasons discussed above.
Effects of reinnervation of a sacral nerve
Successful reinnervation of one sacral nerve has been shown to allow
voluntary eliciting of a detrusor contraction; however, its efficacy
is
expected to be limited by several facts. First, only one sacral nerve
is
reinnervated, but the sacral autonomic outflow derives from S2–S5 on
both
sides. Second, sacral nerves are mixed nerves carrying the autonomic
outflow
to the pelvic organs as well as the somatic outflow to the pelvic
floor
muscles and sphincters. Thus, in theory, some DSD is to be expected
during
stimulation after successful reinnervation.
Central nervous modulation of new reflex arc
Because the newly established reflex arc of skin–central nervous
system–
bladder is by no means a simple spinal reflex arc but travels by its
long
afferent fibers through thalamus into the sensory cortex and back,
central
nervous modulating effects are to be expected. These may act in both
directions and either dampen (inhibit) or exaggerate (stimulate) the
desired
lumbar to sacral detrusor activation.
Secondary bladder changes
Bladder compliance and detrusor contractility is affected after
neurologic
injury or inborn neurologic lesions. Secondary changes such as muscle
hypertrophy and detrusor muscle fibrosis are related to the duration
of the
neurologic deficit and may be reversible when early rehabilitation
starts
after spinal shock in spinal cord injury patients. However, with an
inborn
neurologic deficit, some of the secondary changes in the effector
organ
might be irreversible in spina bifida patients.
Conclusions
The important message of the paper by Peters et al is that the
functional
results of lumbar to sacral nerve rerouting in spina bifida, in their
experience, are less favorable in terms of achieving voluntary
micturition
and urinary continence in children with spina bifida compared with the
excellent reports of Xiao [1]. Actually, Peters et al's published
urodynamic
tracings (Figs. 2 and 3 of the reviewed paper) show better detrusor
contractions of up to 30 cm H2O compared with the published urodynamic
tracings of Xiao (Figs. 3 and 4 [1]), where voiding is predominantly
achieved by abdominal straining with concomitant pelvic floor activity
and
by only weak detrusor contraction with indiscernible DSD because of
the
simultaneous abdominal straining.
Nevertheless, the clinical results of Peters et al are expected based
on the
theoretical considerations noted. Even if reinnervation of one sacral
nerve
is completely successful, this means that only one of eight sacral
nerves
innervating the bladder with at best 20–30% of the total sacral
parasympathetic outflow to the urinary bladder is activated on
stimulation
for initiation of micturition. Urinary incontinence in spina bifida
patients
might be related to detrusor hyperreflexia, to sphincter areflexia,
or to
both conditions. In addition, continence may be compromised by low
bladder
compliance due to detrusor hypertonicity or fibrosis. How all of these
functional and possibly morphologic abnormalities should be controlled
by
reinnervation of a single sacral ventral spinal root remains unclear.
Motor
deficits as a result of transection of the lumbar ventral spinal donor
root
are permanent for the affected motor units. In terms of loss of
function,
this might be compensated when innervation of a specific muscle arises
from
several spinal segments, where other segment innervation can
compensate for
the lost function of the transected segment.
The authors’ plea is noteworthy, to continue scientific evaluation of
the
risks and the benefits of this procedure before it may be taken
enthusiastically into clinical practice on a broad base.
Conflicts of interest
The author has nothing to disclose.
References
[1]
C.G. Xiao
Reinnervation for neurogenic bladder: historic review and introduction
of a
somatic-autonomic reflex pathway procedure for patients with spinal
cord
injury or spina bifida
Eur Urol, 49 (2006), pp. 22–29
Article | PDF (396 K)
[2]
J.W. Thüroff, M.A. Bazeed, R.A. Schmidt, D.H. Luu, E.A. Tanagho
Regional topography of spinal cord neurons innervating pelvic floor
muscles
and bladder neck in the dog: a study by combined horseradish
peroxidase
histochemistry and autoradiography
Urol Int, 37 (1982), pp. 110–120
View Record in Scopus | Full Text via CrossRef | Cited By in Scopus
(20)
[3]
M. Hohenfellner, J.S. Paick, F. Trigo-Rocha et al.
Site of deafferentation and electrode placement for bladder
stimulation:
clinical implications
J Urol, 147 (1992), pp. 1665–1670
View Record in Scopus | Cited By in Scopus (26)
[4]
M. Hohenfellner, D. Schultz-Lampel, S. Dahms, K. Matzel, J.W. Thüroff
Bilateral chronic sacral neuromodulation for treatment of lower
urinary
tract dysfunction
J Urol, 160 (1998), pp. 821–824
Article | PDF (1038 K) | View Record in Scopus | Full Text via
CrossRef |
Cited By in Scopus (69)
[5]
M. Hohenfellner, J. Pannek, U. Bötel et al.
Sacral bladder denervation for treatment of detrusor hyperreflexia and
autonomic dysreflexia
Urology, 58 (2001), pp. 28–32
Article | PDF (119 K) | View Record in Scopus | Cited By in Scopus
(20)
Copyright © 2010 Published by Elsevier B.V. All rights reserved. | | | c*****l
发帖数: 3551 | | y****i
发帖数: 2108 | | s*******n
发帖数: 10426 | 13 不是有效率，而是治愈率，有当年神秘源医院签字盖章的“保证书”为证，哈哈。
这个治愈率可以得炸药奖了！
【在 y****i 的大作中提到】
: 2011年1月的commentary review.
: 把结论部分给你摘出来：
: The important message 。。。 is that the functional results 。。。are
: less
: favorable 。。。compared with the excellent reports of Xiao [1].
: only one of eight sacral nerves innervating the bladder with at best
: 20–30%
: of the total sacral parasympathetic outflow to the urinary bladder is
: activated on stimulation for initiation of micturition.
: The authors’ plea is noteworthy, to continue scientific evaluation of
| D*******a
发帖数: 1723 | 14 下肢无力多数是自限性的
Lower extremity weakness was mostly self-limited
别搞笑了旁观者Commentary的东西也叫下结论？
唯一的有根据的结论就是文章支持的东西
没像肖传国吹的那么神，这个结果已经很好了
你转贴的东西你自己看得懂吗？
你学医的吗，知道体神经代替内脏神经什么意义吗
你懂个鸡巴蛋啊
【在 y****i 的大作中提到】
: 2011年1月的commentary review.
: 把结论部分给你摘出来：
: The important message 。。。 is that the functional results 。。。are
: less
: favorable 。。。compared with the excellent reports of Xiao [1].
: only one of eight sacral nerves innervating the bladder with at best
: 20–30%
: of the total sacral parasympathetic outflow to the urinary bladder is
: activated on stimulation for initiation of micturition.
: The authors’ plea is noteworthy, to continue scientific evaluation of
| y****i
发帖数: 2108 | 15 旁观你妈啊，编辑的评论你以为是你这个大傻B随便评论的啊。
你觉得肖牛B你就觉得呗。傻B觉得谁牛B谁care啊！
傻B智商请不要回我的帖子。
【在 D*******a 的大作中提到】
: 下肢无力多数是自限性的
: Lower extremity weakness was mostly self-limited
: 别搞笑了旁观者Commentary的东西也叫下结论？
: 唯一的有根据的结论就是文章支持的东西
: 没像肖传国吹的那么神，这个结果已经很好了
: 你转贴的东西你自己看得懂吗？
: 你学医的吗，知道体神经代替内脏神经什么意义吗
: 你懂个鸡巴蛋啊
| D*******a
发帖数: 1723 | 16 炸药奖不大可能，不过这个手术要是真能改进成功的话，肖传国获个Lasker的临床奖+院士算是绰绰有余了
【在 s*******n 的大作中提到】
: 不是有效率，而是治愈率，有当年神秘源医院签字盖章的“保证书”为证，哈哈。
: 这个治愈率可以得炸药奖了！
| D*******a
发帖数: 1723 | 17 要是真不行的话NIH有病给他拨款
NIH的态度已经说明问题了
你根本不懂医
哪里来的胆子质疑
你狗屁不懂就回你妈烂逼里玩去吧
呵呵
【在 y****i 的大作中提到】
: 旁观你妈啊，编辑的评论你以为是你这个大傻B随便评论的啊。
: 你觉得肖牛B你就觉得呗。傻B觉得谁牛B谁care啊！
: 傻B智商请不要回我的帖子。
| y****i
发帖数: 2108 | 18 你个傻B要是生物wsn说不定稿子还要老子审呢。滚一边儿去！ | c****e
发帖数: 322 | 19 Good。
搞不明白那些抵制方打假的普通大众是出于什么心态。
【在 y****i 的大作中提到】
: 方对肖传国的xiao procedure的质疑完全合理。感兴趣的可以google一下,相信从新闻
: 报道中就可以得出一些结论。注意看英文报道，比较公正些。
: 简单地说，就是肖在中国草菅人命，把本来应该在大白鼠身上的实验直接用在病人身上
: ，把处于实验阶段的手术用来营利，然后对结果夸大其词。国外同行请肖去做的同样的
: 手术结果明显离87%相差太远。
: 比较可笑可悲的是，肖传国在蹲了半年大牢之后，现在又宣称手术完全不受影响。难道
: 中国的行医执照没有吊销一说吗？中国人就这么命贱吗？
: 在中国打假，真的需要勇气。挺周老虎的刘里远朱巨龙还在上窜下跳，魏于全一伙还在
: 瞄准一切机会反扑，唐骏还是那个唐骏，韩寒也还会是拥有上千万粉丝的韩寒。民智不
: 开啊民智不开啊。
| c****e
发帖数: 322 | 20 哈哈哈。
现在只好混围脖了。。。
【在 y****i 的大作中提到】
: 肖教授活跃在打方第一线：http://www.weibo.com/u/1808244527
| | | d********1
发帖数: 3828 | 21 在美国他的手术难道不是还在试验阶段么？在试验阶段的手术拿到国内当成成熟的手术
，那不是欺诈是什么？
这么黑白分明的事情，方黑为什么还要胡搅蛮缠？
NIH拨款的东西多了。你以为有个NIH拨款就是一流的科研？
【在 D*******a 的大作中提到】
: 要是真不行的话NIH有病给他拨款
: NIH的态度已经说明问题了
: 你根本不懂医
: 哪里来的胆子质疑
: 你狗屁不懂就回你妈烂逼里玩去吧
: 呵呵
| a****g
发帖数: 8131 | 22 同意
NIH拨款是根据肖在中国的成功病例，估计NIH怎么也想不到一个不成熟的尚在实验阶段
的手术能在中国做几千个病例
【在 d********1 的大作中提到】
: 在美国他的手术难道不是还在试验阶段么？在试验阶段的手术拿到国内当成成熟的手术
: ，那不是欺诈是什么？
: 这么黑白分明的事情，方黑为什么还要胡搅蛮缠？
: NIH拨款的东西多了。你以为有个NIH拨款就是一流的科研？
| p***1
发帖数: 272 | 23 简单说, 这是肖先在美国老鼠上做的, 提出假设, 因为观点独特, NIH 就给钱, 但他没
美国医生执照, 靠他自己根本不可能在美国做clinical trial， 只有回中国试, 再用
中国数据去鼓动老美做clinical trial，狭洋自重, 再杀回中国.
中国数据只有在申请1期有用, 现在像是3期, 是基与J UROLOGY 结果, 和中国数据没太
多关系了. 外科手术有个改进完善过程, 现在的XIAO 术和老鼠上的可能已有改进了,
只不过基本原理类似.
所以XIAO PROCEDURE 作为一个手术方法会有争议, 但基本已活下来了.DETROIT 做了9
个, FLORIDA 做了8 个, 要8个月愈合期.现在这两家在鼓吹, 反对的都没做过. 肖肯定
有吹牛的东西, 但如果全无是处, 老美没那么笨, NIH 再砸2百万往下做.
中国有许多外国人不敢做的手术和药物, 不是所有手术都唯洋大人标准.中国没有IRB,
所以风险手术没有一个监督机制. 好和坏就凭嘴说.
【在 d********1 的大作中提到】
: 在美国他的手术难道不是还在试验阶段么？在试验阶段的手术拿到国内当成成熟的手术
: ，那不是欺诈是什么？
: 这么黑白分明的事情，方黑为什么还要胡搅蛮缠？
: NIH拨款的东西多了。你以为有个NIH拨款就是一流的科研？
| m**x
发帖数: 8454 | 24 不管东西牛不牛，能拿百姓当小白鼠做实验就充分说明其道德败坏
9
【在 p***1 的大作中提到】
: 简单说, 这是肖先在美国老鼠上做的, 提出假设, 因为观点独特, NIH 就给钱, 但他没
: 美国医生执照, 靠他自己根本不可能在美国做clinical trial， 只有回中国试, 再用
: 中国数据去鼓动老美做clinical trial，狭洋自重, 再杀回中国.
: 中国数据只有在申请1期有用, 现在像是3期, 是基与J UROLOGY 结果, 和中国数据没太
: 多关系了. 外科手术有个改进完善过程, 现在的XIAO 术和老鼠上的可能已有改进了,
: 只不过基本原理类似.
: 所以XIAO PROCEDURE 作为一个手术方法会有争议, 但基本已活下来了.DETROIT 做了9
: 个, FLORIDA 做了8 个, 要8个月愈合期.现在这两家在鼓吹, 反对的都没做过. 肖肯定
: 有吹牛的东西, 但如果全无是处, 老美没那么笨, NIH 再砸2百万往下做.
: 中国有许多外国人不敢做的手术和药物, 不是所有手术都唯洋大人标准.中国没有IRB,
| c*****l
发帖数: 3551 | 25 agree
【在 m**x 的大作中提到】
: 不管东西牛不牛，能拿百姓当小白鼠做实验就充分说明其道德败坏
:
: 9
| r***e
发帖数: 2000 | 26
这个主要取决于患者本人的态度吧。
我上学的时候有一个美国朋友，他的爸爸是退伍兵，有很好的福利。
后来他爸爸得了癌症，老兵医院认为没治了。他和他两个哥哥自费
二十万给他爸爸做未被批准的治疗。他爸爸还是去世了。但是他们
兄弟一点都不后悔。
【在 m**x 的大作中提到】
: 不管东西牛不牛，能拿百姓当小白鼠做实验就充分说明其道德败坏
:
: 9
| m**x
发帖数: 8454 | 27 就算如此你至少要告诉患者他们是小白鼠，手术风险很大
【在 r***e 的大作中提到】
:
: 这个主要取决于患者本人的态度吧。
: 我上学的时候有一个美国朋友，他的爸爸是退伍兵，有很好的福利。
: 后来他爸爸得了癌症，老兵医院认为没治了。他和他两个哥哥自费
: 二十万给他爸爸做未被批准的治疗。他爸爸还是去世了。但是他们
: 兄弟一点都不后悔。
| s*******n
发帖数: 10426 | 28 不是患者的问题，也不是肖传国的主要问题，主要的是中国怎么能让这样的不成熟的东
西成为临床常规术式，这个才是问题的关键。
你举的那个例子跟肖氏手术在中国的情况是两码事。
【在 r***e 的大作中提到】
:
: 这个主要取决于患者本人的态度吧。
: 我上学的时候有一个美国朋友，他的爸爸是退伍兵，有很好的福利。
: 后来他爸爸得了癌症，老兵医院认为没治了。他和他两个哥哥自费
: 二十万给他爸爸做未被批准的治疗。他爸爸还是去世了。但是他们
: 兄弟一点都不后悔。
|
|
