D********r
发帖数: 135 | 1 如果戴口罩人是正常人群，口罩对于戴口罩人的保护作用体现在两方面：
1）防止空气中covid19病毒透过口罩：
N95(95%) > 医用外科 > 医用一次性 （70%左右） > 布口罩（10%？）
2）防止飞沫传播
N95（99.9%) > 医用口罩 (90%）> 布口罩（70%) > 围巾 (50%) > 针织物颈套(0-10%?)
https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/36/eabd3083
如果戴口罩人是无症状感染者，具有covid19的传染性，戴口罩对别人的保护作用主要
体现在阻止飞沫传染上。
现在对是否应该戴口罩的争论其实都是鸡同鸭讲。支持的，是站在防止无症状感染者传
播病毒角度，就算只是一般的棉布口罩，也可以阻止70%飞沫传播，反对的，是站在保
护自己的角度讲，棉布口罩提供非常少的保护作用。理解不了这个差异，争论再多都是
无用功。 |
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 2 You got the point. It's about individual health vs. public health.
Similar logic for the vaccine: does vaccine protect individual or the public
? If one does not have risk factor for covid (such as young kids), do they
have to get vaccinated to (potentially) protect adults?
%?)
【在 D********r 的大作中提到】
: 如果戴口罩人是正常人群，口罩对于戴口罩人的保护作用体现在两方面：
: 1）防止空气中covid19病毒透过口罩：
: N95(95%) > 医用外科 > 医用一次性 （70%左右） > 布口罩（10%？）
: 2）防止飞沫传播
: N95（99.9%) > 医用口罩 (90%）> 布口罩（70%) > 围巾 (50%) > 针织物颈套(0-10%?)
: https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/36/eabd3083
: 如果戴口罩人是无症状感染者，具有covid19的传染性，戴口罩对别人的保护作用主要
: 体现在阻止飞沫传染上。
: 现在对是否应该戴口罩的争论其实都是鸡同鸭讲。支持的，是站在防止无症状感染者传
: 播病毒角度，就算只是一般的棉布口罩，也可以阻止70%飞沫传播，反对的，是站在保
|
F********r
发帖数: 878 | 3 Young kids have no risk factor for covid? Last week, there were 94k new
infections among the children, and many schools have not yet veen opened.
public
【在 r******i 的大作中提到】
: You got the point. It's about individual health vs. public health.
: Similar logic for the vaccine: does vaccine protect individual or the public
: ? If one does not have risk factor for covid (such as young kids), do they
: have to get vaccinated to (potentially) protect adults?
:
: %?)
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 4 MY kid has no risk factor. Period.
You can feel free to ask YOUR kid to take the vaccine.
【在 F********r 的大作中提到】
: Young kids have no risk factor for covid? Last week, there were 94k new
: infections among the children, and many schools have not yet veen opened.
:
: public
|
F********r
发帖数: 878 | 5 This country has a lot more kids than yours and mine.
【在 r******i 的大作中提到】
: MY kid has no risk factor. Period.
: You can feel free to ask YOUR kid to take the vaccine.
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 6 That's the point: individual health vs. public health.
Does public health trump individual health?
【在 F********r 的大作中提到】
: This country has a lot more kids than yours and mine.
|
S**H
发帖数: 1256 | 7 我们大兰州只敢 follow JB 的CDC 的建议。 目前只 recommend, 不敢 mandate |
F********r
发帖数: 878 | 8 Do your kids have Tdap before going to school? If you cannot say no to Tdap
, you certainly cannot and will not say no to covid vaccine. Once it is
required for school, you will have no problem/choice. The problem you have
now is the lack of formality. You just need a ritual. Don't worry, it is
coming, if this thing lasts for another year and kills more than one million
Americans. I truly hope I am wrong.
【在 r******i 的大作中提到】
: That's the point: individual health vs. public health.
: Does public health trump individual health?
|
n******h
发帖数: 2482 | 9 Tdap is a traditional vaccine proven in the field for tens of years. Yes my
kids did take it.
Covid is an experimental mRNA vaccine that's not even approved by FDA. There
is no fucking chance I'm gonna allow my kids to be used as a lab rat.
Is your brain big enough to understand the difference?
Tdap
have
million
【在 F********r 的大作中提到】
: Do your kids have Tdap before going to school? If you cannot say no to Tdap
: , you certainly cannot and will not say no to covid vaccine. Once it is
: required for school, you will have no problem/choice. The problem you have
: now is the lack of formality. You just need a ritual. Don't worry, it is
: coming, if this thing lasts for another year and kills more than one million
: Americans. I truly hope I am wrong.
|
F********r
发帖数: 878 | 10 Is your brain big enough for you to understand the meaning of IF? I never
advocate to mandate the covid vaccines for kids now. IF it is approved by
FDA and mandated by school, are you going to allow you kids to be lab rats?
Are you still against it or just simply waiting for a ritual of formality?
my
There
【在 n******h 的大作中提到】
: Tdap is a traditional vaccine proven in the field for tens of years. Yes my
: kids did take it.
: Covid is an experimental mRNA vaccine that's not even approved by FDA. There
: is no fucking chance I'm gonna allow my kids to be used as a lab rat.
: Is your brain big enough to understand the difference?
:
: Tdap
: have
: million
|
n******h
发帖数: 2482 | 11 It's not approved - plain and simple. Why are you holding this against me
with a big fucking IF? What IF the virus disappeared next month? What IF the
FDA bans the vaccine next month because it's not safe? Why are we debating
now on a condition that nobody knows for sure whether it would happen? Where
did you get that confidence?
I want the FDA and Pharma's names on the line so if anything goes wrong I
can sue them!
?
【在 F********r 的大作中提到】
: Is your brain big enough for you to understand the meaning of IF? I never
: advocate to mandate the covid vaccines for kids now. IF it is approved by
: FDA and mandated by school, are you going to allow you kids to be lab rats?
: Are you still against it or just simply waiting for a ritual of formality?
:
: my
: There
|
F********r
发帖数: 878 | 12 Your what-ifs are easy for me to answer, most likely my answers will be the
same as yours. However, I am curious on what the anti vaxxers will say once
/if they get approved and mandated.
I was not holding this IF against you. I put out the IF before you replied
my post.
the
debating
Where
【在 n******h 的大作中提到】
: It's not approved - plain and simple. Why are you holding this against me
: with a big fucking IF? What IF the virus disappeared next month? What IF the
: FDA bans the vaccine next month because it's not safe? Why are we debating
: now on a condition that nobody knows for sure whether it would happen? Where
: did you get that confidence?
: I want the FDA and Pharma's names on the line so if anything goes wrong I
: can sue them!
:
: ?
|
D********r
发帖数: 135 | 13 美国号称拥有世界第一的利己主义者，名不虚传。一个只注重个人利益的社会，想要从
一个公共健康疫情中摆脱出来，难啊。
回答你的问题，我觉得无论大人小孩，打了疫苗，既保护了自己，也对社会做出了贡献
，很好。你觉得打疫苗有危险，所以你不让你小孩打疫苗。我觉得相对疫苗而言，小孩
感染新冠更危险，所以我选择让我小孩去打。理念不同，选择不同。
另外，所谓小孩没有风险，也只是你的一家之言罢了。现在我们本地医院住院的
covid19病人中10%是小孩，这个数据跟其他多个州的数据，以及CDC的数据都吻合。你
觉得那么多小孩都要住院了，是否说明新冠对小孩也是很大的风险？你故意忽略或者选
择性的认为那些跟你预期不一致的的数据都是假的，那是你的选择，但不要把这种错误
信息传播给别人，那是变相的杀人。
public
【在 r******i 的大作中提到】
: You got the point. It's about individual health vs. public health.
: Similar logic for the vaccine: does vaccine protect individual or the public
: ? If one does not have risk factor for covid (such as young kids), do they
: have to get vaccinated to (potentially) protect adults?
:
: %?)
|
n******h
发帖数: 2482 | 14 Anti-vaxxers? I take flu vaccine every year. No I'm not taking this unproven
"new-tech" and useless vaccine until it's proven to be safe.
the
once
replied
【在 F********r 的大作中提到】
: Your what-ifs are easy for me to answer, most likely my answers will be the
: same as yours. However, I am curious on what the anti vaxxers will say once
: /if they get approved and mandated.
: I was not holding this IF against you. I put out the IF before you replied
: my post.
:
: the
: debating
: Where
|
n******h
发帖数: 2482 | 15 Without individual, there is no society. This may be difficult for you to
understand.
【在 D********r 的大作中提到】
: 美国号称拥有世界第一的利己主义者，名不虚传。一个只注重个人利益的社会，想要从
: 一个公共健康疫情中摆脱出来，难啊。
: 回答你的问题，我觉得无论大人小孩，打了疫苗，既保护了自己，也对社会做出了贡献
: ，很好。你觉得打疫苗有危险，所以你不让你小孩打疫苗。我觉得相对疫苗而言，小孩
: 感染新冠更危险，所以我选择让我小孩去打。理念不同，选择不同。
: 另外，所谓小孩没有风险，也只是你的一家之言罢了。现在我们本地医院住院的
: covid19病人中10%是小孩，这个数据跟其他多个州的数据，以及CDC的数据都吻合。你
: 觉得那么多小孩都要住院了，是否说明新冠对小孩也是很大的风险？你故意忽略或者选
: 择性的认为那些跟你预期不一致的的数据都是假的，那是你的选择，但不要把这种错误
: 信息传播给别人，那是变相的杀人。
|
F********r
发帖数: 878 | 16 My guess is, once/if it is approved, you will change your mind and say "it's
proven to be safe"? Or are you still against it till some time later? If
the former, you are not much different from me on this issue at this point.
I am not for covid vaccine mandate for kids at this time.
unproven
【在 n******h 的大作中提到】
: Anti-vaxxers? I take flu vaccine every year. No I'm not taking this unproven
: "new-tech" and useless vaccine until it's proven to be safe.
:
: the
: once
: replied
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 17 THEN LET THE ONE MILLION AMERICAN DIE!
I WILL DO ALL I CAN NOT TO LET SCHOOLS MANDATE COVID VACCINE!
Tdap
have
million
【在 F********r 的大作中提到】
: Do your kids have Tdap before going to school? If you cannot say no to Tdap
: , you certainly cannot and will not say no to covid vaccine. Once it is
: required for school, you will have no problem/choice. The problem you have
: now is the lack of formality. You just need a ritual. Don't worry, it is
: coming, if this thing lasts for another year and kills more than one million
: Americans. I truly hope I am wrong.
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 18 YES, I AM 利己主义者. SO WHAT?
EVERYONE THAT WOULD DIE FROM COVID MUST DIE!!!
【在 D********r 的大作中提到】
: 美国号称拥有世界第一的利己主义者，名不虚传。一个只注重个人利益的社会，想要从
: 一个公共健康疫情中摆脱出来，难啊。
: 回答你的问题，我觉得无论大人小孩，打了疫苗，既保护了自己，也对社会做出了贡献
: ，很好。你觉得打疫苗有危险，所以你不让你小孩打疫苗。我觉得相对疫苗而言，小孩
: 感染新冠更危险，所以我选择让我小孩去打。理念不同，选择不同。
: 另外，所谓小孩没有风险，也只是你的一家之言罢了。现在我们本地医院住院的
: covid19病人中10%是小孩，这个数据跟其他多个州的数据，以及CDC的数据都吻合。你
: 觉得那么多小孩都要住院了，是否说明新冠对小孩也是很大的风险？你故意忽略或者选
: 择性的认为那些跟你预期不一致的的数据都是假的，那是你的选择，但不要把这种错误
: 信息传播给别人，那是变相的杀人。
|
F********r
发帖数: 878 | 19 There is not much you or I can do if/once it is mandated by schools, unless
you are going to home school your kids or put them in private schools.
【在 r******i 的大作中提到】
: THEN LET THE ONE MILLION AMERICAN DIE!
: I WILL DO ALL I CAN NOT TO LET SCHOOLS MANDATE COVID VACCINE!
:
: Tdap
: have
: million
|
F********r
发帖数: 878 | 20 So what? We have over 600k deaths. We are supposed to be the BEST country
in the world, not one of the worst.
【在 r******i 的大作中提到】
: YES, I AM 利己主义者. SO WHAT?
: EVERYONE THAT WOULD DIE FROM COVID MUST DIE!!!
|
D********r
发帖数: 135 | 21 美国做过一个调查，有多少人认为新冠疫情是一件很严重的事情。在没有打疫苗的人中
，75%认为新冠根本就不是件事，不需要很严肃的对待。这也就意味着，这75%的人，无
论FDA是正式批准还是临时批准疫苗，他们都不会去打。至于强制，很多人在说医院系
统强制员工打疫苗，这也很正常啊，医院系统打疫苗是为了保护病人，因为很多病人是
无法打疫苗，或者就算打了疫苗，保护力也较弱的，在医院系统下，公共健康远高于个
人健康。
the
once
【在 F********r 的大作中提到】
: Your what-ifs are easy for me to answer, most likely my answers will be the
: same as yours. However, I am curious on what the anti vaxxers will say once
: /if they get approved and mandated.
: I was not holding this IF against you. I put out the IF before you replied
: my post.
:
: the
: debating
: Where
|
n******h
发帖数: 2482 | 22 "the BEST country in the world" - you are illusional. We are so fucked.
country
【在 F********r 的大作中提到】
: So what? We have over 600k deaths. We are supposed to be the BEST country
: in the world, not one of the worst.
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 23 YES, I'M PUTTING MY KID TO PRIVATE SCHOOL.
unless
【在 F********r 的大作中提到】
: There is not much you or I can do if/once it is mandated by schools, unless
: you are going to home school your kids or put them in private schools.
|
F********r
发帖数: 878 | 24 Illusional or not, that's why so mnay of us came from China to the US; if
the US was not "supposed" to be one of the best, we would still be in China.
I still believe the US is still one of the best in the world now. I also
believe China is catching up quickly.
【在 n******h 的大作中提到】
: "the BEST country in the world" - you are illusional. We are so fucked.
:
: country
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 25 EVERYONE THAT WOULD DIE FROM COVID MUST DIE!
country
【在 F********r 的大作中提到】
: So what? We have over 600k deaths. We are supposed to be the BEST country
: in the world, not one of the worst.
|
D********r
发帖数: 135 | 26 以美国的经济实力和医药开发能力，在疫情早期，全世界都认为美国是可以做得很好的
。不料被现实狠狠的打了脸。
【在 n******h 的大作中提到】
: "the BEST country in the world" - you are illusional. We are so fucked.
:
: country
|
D********r
发帖数: 135 | 27 不奇怪，世界上最大的利己主义国家，有个华人毫不奇怪。只是你选择利己，是因为你
觉得你小孩没有危险，你家里没有老人，你自己打了疫苗，但有很多家庭跟你家庭不一
样，你的理念对你的家庭也许没有什么危害，但却可能导致其他家庭家破人亡。我不反
对某些人持利己主义态度，但请有底线，不要破坏别人的家庭。
【在 r******i 的大作中提到】
: YES, I AM 利己主义者. SO WHAT?
: EVERYONE THAT WOULD DIE FROM COVID MUST DIE!!!
|
D********r
发帖数: 135 | 28 没听懂逻辑。我们大红州都mask mandate了一年，今年中学取消，小学继续。兰州居然
只recommend，没有mandate？或者你说的是疫苗？
【在 S**H 的大作中提到】
: 我们大兰州只敢 follow JB 的CDC 的建议。 目前只 recommend, 不敢 mandate
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 29 I DID NOT 破坏别人的家庭. IF YOU DIE FROM COVID, THAT'S YOUR OWN PROBLEM!!
【在 D********r 的大作中提到】
: 不奇怪，世界上最大的利己主义国家，有个华人毫不奇怪。只是你选择利己，是因为你
: 觉得你小孩没有危险，你家里没有老人，你自己打了疫苗，但有很多家庭跟你家庭不一
: 样，你的理念对你的家庭也许没有什么危害，但却可能导致其他家庭家破人亡。我不反
: 对某些人持利己主义态度，但请有底线，不要破坏别人的家庭。
|
m********s
发帖数: 1 | 30 大五毛assume
cases=hospitalization=death
娃的COVID case再多
重症也是极少
死亡更是罕见
除非你的娃有基础病，哮喘，type 2 diabetes, 白血病
否则COVID风险比出门车祸，溺水，自杀都小得多得多 |
n******h
发帖数: 2482 | 31 US WAS better. It's now becoming a 3rd-world country.
It's still better than China in my book, even though my very limited freedom
here is dwindling rapidly on every passing day.
Oh I think China is even more fucked.
China.
【在 F********r 的大作中提到】
: Illusional or not, that's why so mnay of us came from China to the US; if
: the US was not "supposed" to be one of the best, we would still be in China.
:
: I still believe the US is still one of the best in the world now. I also
: believe China is catching up quickly.
|
D********r
发帖数: 135 | 32 那你就不要建议别人干这个干那个，说什么该死就死。什么叫该死？本来打了疫苗就不
会死的，要是听了你的建议不打疫苗死了，到底算该死的还是不该死的？
【在 r******i 的大作中提到】
: I DID NOT 破坏别人的家庭. IF YOU DIE FROM COVID, THAT'S YOUR OWN PROBLEM!!
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 33 I have NEVER suggested against others to take the vaccine. You can check my
record. In fact, I suggest anyone who is worried to take the vaccine.
I am against vaccine MANDATE!
【在 D********r 的大作中提到】
: 那你就不要建议别人干这个干那个，说什么该死就死。什么叫该死？本来打了疫苗就不
: 会死的，要是听了你的建议不打疫苗死了，到底算该死的还是不该死的？
|
S**H
发帖数: 1256 | 34 上个学年没有mask mandate的很少吧。 说的是新开学， 我们大兰州州里发的 email都
是 CDC如何如何， 口罩 recommended， 然后我们这的case 是去年同期的 4倍了。
【在 D********r 的大作中提到】
: 没听懂逻辑。我们大红州都mask mandate了一年，今年中学取消，小学继续。兰州居然
: 只recommend，没有mandate？或者你说的是疫苗？
|
n******h
发帖数: 2482 | 35 My friend's friend, 60-year-old European man, died shortly after the covid
shot.
My friend's sister, 50+ Chinese woman, developed blood clot right after the
covid shot.
What do you make of it?
【在 D********r 的大作中提到】
: 那你就不要建议别人干这个干那个，说什么该死就死。什么叫该死？本来打了疫苗就不
: 会死的，要是听了你的建议不打疫苗死了，到底算该死的还是不该死的？
|
D********r
发帖数: 135 | 36 CDC也是毛病多多，打得一把烂牌，让学校好好的再坚持一年不好么。
【在 S**H 的大作中提到】
: 上个学年没有mask mandate的很少吧。 说的是新开学， 我们大兰州州里发的 email都
: 是 CDC如何如何， 口罩 recommended， 然后我们这的case 是去年同期的 4倍了。
|
D********r
发帖数: 135 | 37 我知道有些医院系统，强制要求员工打疫苗，你觉得医院系统也不应该？很多私立高校
为了实现安全的in person class，都要求强制要求学生打疫苗，你也觉得不应该？我
不认为美国将会强制所有人打疫苗，但某些特殊行业，特殊情况强制打疫苗是可以理解
，也应该实施的。
my
【在 r******i 的大作中提到】
: I have NEVER suggested against others to take the vaccine. You can check my
: record. In fact, I suggest anyone who is worried to take the vaccine.
: I am against vaccine MANDATE!
|
D********r
发帖数: 135 | 38 那你应该可以看到更多例子，感染新冠死亡的，你怎么办？觉得他们就应该死？我身边
也有一个中国人，就在2020年12月，在疫苗正式开打前几天，因为感染新冠去世了，所
有知道这件事情的中国人，都在为他遗憾，觉得如果再迟几天，打了疫苗，可能就是完
全不一样的结果了。我身边所有打了mRNA疫苗的朋友，有的有头晕，难受，酸痛等等副
作用，有的啥反应都没有。举几个个例，丝毫不解决问题。再回到你的例子，你确定你
的朋友的朋友是因为疫苗死的？你朋友的姐妹，打的是美国的mRNA疫苗？对于后者，如
果打的是英国的疫苗，只能说遗憾，因为那个疫苗在trial的时候就暴露了这个问题。
the
【在 n******h 的大作中提到】
: My friend's friend, 60-year-old European man, died shortly after the covid
: shot.
: My friend's sister, 50+ Chinese woman, developed blood clot right after the
: covid shot.
: What do you make of it?
|
Y**M
发帖数: 2315 | 39 我觉得，楼主考虑问题的角度是偏的。
口罩这个事的关键是：谁有权让你戴口罩。
而不是戴口罩有没有好处。
举个例子：警察跟你说“站住别动”“举起手慢慢走过来”，你就得服从；随便某
人，还是犯罪率高的族裔，跟你说这些话，除非他手里拿着刀枪，确实能击毙你，否则
你会老老实实由他摆布吗？
如果说“口罩主要是为了保护别人”，那是否有权就更重要。
这就如同你的上级军官让你冲锋，你就应该冲锋；傻逼让你冲锋，你冲了别人不冲
（傻逼的命令，本来就不可能也不应该有很多服从），你不是白白送死吗？
名不正则言不顺，言不顺则事不成。CDC之流要当傻逼，在被清算撤换以前，这个
事就没治。 |
Y**M
发帖数: 2315 | 40 至于统计数据。
诸如有多少孩子得新冠住院，有多少人死于新冠。
很可能也是由傻逼方法统计出来的。
例如，只要你住院且阳性，不管你是什么原因住院的，都算你新冠住院；只要你死
了且阳性，不管你死于什么原因，都算你死于新冠。
这种数据谁信谁上当啊。 |
d********f
发帖数: 43471 | 41 神奇阿，你自己要出去浪，却需要别人来保护你的家庭？你以为你是jb么？lol
【在 D********r 的大作中提到】
: 不奇怪，世界上最大的利己主义国家，有个华人毫不奇怪。只是你选择利己，是因为你
: 觉得你小孩没有危险，你家里没有老人，你自己打了疫苗，但有很多家庭跟你家庭不一
: 样，你的理念对你的家庭也许没有什么危害，但却可能导致其他家庭家破人亡。我不反
: 对某些人持利己主义态度，但请有底线，不要破坏别人的家庭。
|
z***n
发帖数: 1 | |
n******h
发帖数: 2482 | 43 It’s simple. If the vaccine works, everyone makes his or her own decision.
I don’t need you to make the decision for me, and I don’t want to make the
decision for you.
If the vaccine doesn’t really work, why would I take it?
: 那你应该可以看到更多例子，感染新冠死亡的，你怎么办？觉得他们就应该死？
我身边
: 也有一个中国人，就在2020年12月，在疫苗正式开打前几天，因为感染新冠去世
了，所
: 有知道这件事情的中国人，都在为他遗憾，觉得如果再迟几天，打了疫苗，可能
就是完
: 全不一样的结果了。我身边所有打了mRNA疫苗的朋友，有的有头晕，难受，酸痛
等等副
: 作用，有的啥反应都没有。举几个个例，丝毫不解决问题。再回到你的例子，你
确定你
: 的朋友的朋友是因为疫苗死的？你朋友的姐妹，打的是美国的mRNA疫苗？对于后
者，如
: 果打的是英国的疫苗，只能说遗憾，因为那个疫苗在trial的时候就暴露了这个
问题。
: the
【在 D********r 的大作中提到】
: 那你应该可以看到更多例子，感染新冠死亡的，你怎么办？觉得他们就应该死？我身边
: 也有一个中国人，就在2020年12月，在疫苗正式开打前几天，因为感染新冠去世了，所
: 有知道这件事情的中国人，都在为他遗憾，觉得如果再迟几天，打了疫苗，可能就是完
: 全不一样的结果了。我身边所有打了mRNA疫苗的朋友，有的有头晕，难受，酸痛等等副
: 作用，有的啥反应都没有。举几个个例，丝毫不解决问题。再回到你的例子，你确定你
: 的朋友的朋友是因为疫苗死的？你朋友的姐妹，打的是美国的mRNA疫苗？对于后者，如
: 果打的是英国的疫苗，只能说遗憾，因为那个疫苗在trial的时候就暴露了这个问题。
:
: the
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 44 As long as my kid is not mandated, I don't care about others being mandated
for now.
I'm strongly against covid vaccine mandate in K-12.
【在 D********r 的大作中提到】
: 我知道有些医院系统，强制要求员工打疫苗，你觉得医院系统也不应该？很多私立高校
: 为了实现安全的in person class，都要求强制要求学生打疫苗，你也觉得不应该？我
: 不认为美国将会强制所有人打疫苗，但某些特殊行业，特殊情况强制打疫苗是可以理解
: ，也应该实施的。
:
: my
|
D********r
发帖数: 135 | 45 目前没有任何新闻说到过K-12要强制疫苗，你在担心什么？如果K-12的数据过几个月出
来证明疫苗安全有效，你会让你小孩去打么？
我相信科学，相对于各种猜测所谓这个疫苗对小孩造成的伤害而言，我相信让小孩直接
感染新冠造成的伤害会更大。说起mRNA疫苗，一个个觉得好像这个序列就会整合到人体
，就会突破到大脑，就会怎么样，好像新冠病毒就是圣母，就不会产生大量mRNA和
spike protein，就不会突破到大脑，不会有副作用一样。说白了，mRNA疫苗就是病毒
的一小部分而已，而之所以只有这一小部分，就是因为其他部分对人体造成的伤害会更
大，如果这些mRNA会有各种各样的作用，新冠病毒产生的mRNA都会产生这些作用。
有些反疫苗的，因为现在还没有完全批准，我理解。但有些反疫苗的，蛊惑人们宁可得
新冠，让整个病毒在人体复制，而不是让小部分病毒来刺激机体产生免疫，居心何在？
mandated
【在 r******i 的大作中提到】
: As long as my kid is not mandated, I don't care about others being mandated
: for now.
: I'm strongly against covid vaccine mandate in K-12.
|
D********r
发帖数: 135 | 46 首先，疫苗有效是毋庸置疑的事情，但凡眼睛不瞎，不用有色眼镜去看数字，都能得到
这个结论。即使是针对delta，也只能说原来的疫苗有效性有所降低罢了。
其次，强制疫苗应该是针对特定人群的，比如医生、护士、警察、消防员等等一线救护
人员，他们日常工作就是跟各种人打交道，他们即需要保护自己，也需要保护别人。在
我看来，除非特殊的身体原因，但凡是服务大众的，都应该打疫苗，比如教师，比如超
市收银员，比如餐馆服务生，比如Gym的前台。其他人，是否打疫苗是应该是自由的。
最后，这世上，没有绝对的自由，做什么行当，就需要考虑这个行当的特殊性。开车系
安全带，保护了别人么？没有，保护了自己罢了，但为什么法律要剥夺自己决定是否要
系安全的权力呢？
.
the
【在 n******h 的大作中提到】
: It’s simple. If the vaccine works, everyone makes his or her own decision.
: I don’t need you to make the decision for me, and I don’t want to make the
: decision for you.
: If the vaccine doesn’t really work, why would I take it?
:
:
: 那你应该可以看到更多例子，感染新冠死亡的，你怎么办？觉得他们就应该死？
: 我身边
:
: 也有一个中国人，就在2020年12月，在疫苗正式开打前几天，因为感染新冠去世
: 了，所
:
: 有知道这件事情的中国人，都在为他遗憾，觉得如果再迟几天，打了疫苗，可能
|
D********r
发帖数: 135 | 47 我不觉得我考虑角度是偏的。一个政策好坏，当然要考虑它带来的好处和坏处。我也没
有说过口罩主要是保护别人。我说的是，在不同场合，需要不同对待。你出门散步戴不
戴口罩，你自己决定。但你坐飞机戴不戴口罩，在目前疫情下，就由不得你自己做决定
。同样，学校是否应该戴口罩，也应该根据当时的疫情决定。中国大部分地区现在不戴
口罩，是因为大家觉得戴口罩没用么？是因为大家都觉得没必要。美国疫情这么严重，
为了保证学校能够顺利教课，学生能够顺利学习，不至于因为一个人阳性，整个班级甚
至整个年级回家，实施强制口罩也无可厚非。
至于你说谁有权，现在佛州州长强制别人不能强制口罩，他有这个权力么？
【在 Y**M 的大作中提到】
: 我觉得，楼主考虑问题的角度是偏的。
: 口罩这个事的关键是：谁有权让你戴口罩。
: 而不是戴口罩有没有好处。
: 举个例子：警察跟你说“站住别动”“举起手慢慢走过来”，你就得服从；随便某
: 人，还是犯罪率高的族裔，跟你说这些话，除非他手里拿着刀枪，确实能击毙你，否则
: 你会老老实实由他摆布吗？
: 如果说“口罩主要是为了保护别人”，那是否有权就更重要。
: 这就如同你的上级军官让你冲锋，你就应该冲锋；傻逼让你冲锋，你冲了别人不冲
: （傻逼的命令，本来就不可能也不应该有很多服从），你不是白白送死吗？
: 名不正则言不顺，言不顺则事不成。CDC之流要当傻逼，在被清算撤换以前，这个
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 48 Let me tell you some scientific fact:
mRNA vaccines does not only have mRNA. It needs a vehicle to carry mRNA
through cell membranes. The vehicle is "lipid nano particles". Is this
vehicle safe? Probably. Probably not. No one knows its long term effect.
"如果K-12的数据过几个月出来证明疫苗安全有效，你会让你小孩去打么？"
If more than 1 million kids on the same age range of my kid have injected
the vaccine for more than two years, and its follow up study have proven "安
全有效" in terms of preventing complications, I will encourage my kid to
take the vaccine.
But I bet you $10 that the vaccine mandates in K-12, at least at some part
of the US, will be established before the condition I stated is cleared.
Why? Because the pharmaceutical companies WILL FORCE the vaccine to be
approved for kids, even if they only have limited data. And public health
officials WILL NOT care about individual healths - they will say vaccine
side effects are "manageable" despite inevitably someone would actually die
from vaccine complications.
【在 D********r 的大作中提到】
: 目前没有任何新闻说到过K-12要强制疫苗，你在担心什么？如果K-12的数据过几个月出
: 来证明疫苗安全有效，你会让你小孩去打么？
: 我相信科学，相对于各种猜测所谓这个疫苗对小孩造成的伤害而言，我相信让小孩直接
: 感染新冠造成的伤害会更大。说起mRNA疫苗，一个个觉得好像这个序列就会整合到人体
: ，就会突破到大脑，就会怎么样，好像新冠病毒就是圣母，就不会产生大量mRNA和
: spike protein，就不会突破到大脑，不会有副作用一样。说白了，mRNA疫苗就是病毒
: 的一小部分而已，而之所以只有这一小部分，就是因为其他部分对人体造成的伤害会更
: 大，如果这些mRNA会有各种各样的作用，新冠病毒产生的mRNA都会产生这些作用。
: 有些反疫苗的，因为现在还没有完全批准，我理解。但有些反疫苗的，蛊惑人们宁可得
: 新冠，让整个病毒在人体复制，而不是让小部分病毒来刺激机体产生免疫，居心何在？
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 49 "其次，强制疫苗应该是针对特定人群的。其他人，是否打疫苗是应该是自由的。"
I'd agree.
"开车系安全带，保护了别人么？没有，保护了自己罢了，但为什么法律要剥夺自己决
定是否要系安全的权力呢？"
I have always been against seat belt mandates. But I myself would wear a
seat belt while driving, and the law does not have impact on my life, so I
don't actually fight with it.
【在 D********r 的大作中提到】
: 首先，疫苗有效是毋庸置疑的事情，但凡眼睛不瞎，不用有色眼镜去看数字，都能得到
: 这个结论。即使是针对delta，也只能说原来的疫苗有效性有所降低罢了。
: 其次，强制疫苗应该是针对特定人群的，比如医生、护士、警察、消防员等等一线救护
: 人员，他们日常工作就是跟各种人打交道，他们即需要保护自己，也需要保护别人。在
: 我看来，除非特殊的身体原因，但凡是服务大众的，都应该打疫苗，比如教师，比如超
: 市收银员，比如餐馆服务生，比如Gym的前台。其他人，是否打疫苗是应该是自由的。
: 最后，这世上，没有绝对的自由，做什么行当，就需要考虑这个行当的特殊性。开车系
: 安全带，保护了别人么？没有，保护了自己罢了，但为什么法律要剥夺自己决定是否要
: 系安全的权力呢？
:
|
l****z
发帖数: 29846 | 50 开车是privelege, 政府当然可以规定你开车应该怎么怎么了.
老实说NY这种地方还说开车不准吃东西, 有人听嘛?
【在 r******i 的大作中提到】
: "其次，强制疫苗应该是针对特定人群的。其他人，是否打疫苗是应该是自由的。"
: I'd agree.
: "开车系安全带，保护了别人么？没有，保护了自己罢了，但为什么法律要剥夺自己决
: 定是否要系安全的权力呢？"
: I have always been against seat belt mandates. But I myself would wear a
: seat belt while driving, and the law does not have impact on my life, so I
: don't actually fight with it.
|
D********r
发帖数: 135 | 51 那我就很好奇了，你觉得什么东西需要mandate，或者说你认为没有东西需要mandate？
【在 r******i 的大作中提到】
: "其次，强制疫苗应该是针对特定人群的。其他人，是否打疫苗是应该是自由的。"
: I'd agree.
: "开车系安全带，保护了别人么？没有，保护了自己罢了，但为什么法律要剥夺自己决
: 定是否要系安全的权力呢？"
: I have always been against seat belt mandates. But I myself would wear a
: seat belt while driving, and the law does not have impact on my life, so I
: don't actually fight with it.
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 52 If something is mandated, ideally whoever mandates it need to prove the
thing DOES ABSOLUTELY NO HARM to each individual. This is not the case of
covid vaccine.
In the world of disease and vaccine, I'd say the disease needs to be more
than 1% fatal to the group that the vaccine is mandated, or the vaccine is
at least 100 times safer than the disease. (covid vaccine is not the case
even for 12-17 yo group).
After all, I don't think anything should be mandated. Because mandating
something means the government thinks/treats its people as stupid.
【在 D********r 的大作中提到】
: 那我就很好奇了，你觉得什么东西需要mandate，或者说你认为没有东西需要mandate？
|
D********r
发帖数: 135 | 53 你这种想法就很有趣了。理论上来讲，所有的法律都是强制人们遵守某种规则，都是
mandate的，你都反对么？比如说，上飞机禁止携带枪支，禁止携带易燃易爆物品，你
也反对？国家出台这种法律，都是因为国家认为老百姓笨？目前大部分州都仍然强制男
人进男人厕所，女人进女人厕所，你也觉得这种强制需要取消？
【在 r******i 的大作中提到】
: If something is mandated, ideally whoever mandates it need to prove the
: thing DOES ABSOLUTELY NO HARM to each individual. This is not the case of
: covid vaccine.
: In the world of disease and vaccine, I'd say the disease needs to be more
: than 1% fatal to the group that the vaccine is mandated, or the vaccine is
: at least 100 times safer than the disease. (covid vaccine is not the case
: even for 12-17 yo group).
: After all, I don't think anything should be mandated. Because mandating
: something means the government thinks/treats its people as stupid.
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 54 The difference of what you said and vaccine mandate are: laws restrict
certain behavior. Mandates force you to take a certain action.
Forced labor is comparable to a mandate. Asking all women to wear hajib is a
type of mandate. How do you think about those?
【在 D********r 的大作中提到】
: 你这种想法就很有趣了。理论上来讲，所有的法律都是强制人们遵守某种规则，都是
: mandate的，你都反对么？比如说，上飞机禁止携带枪支，禁止携带易燃易爆物品，你
: 也反对？国家出台这种法律，都是因为国家认为老百姓笨？目前大部分州都仍然强制男
: 人进男人厕所，女人进女人厕所，你也觉得这种强制需要取消？
|
D********r
发帖数: 135 | 55
a
那在公共场所要求所有人穿衣服算不算mandate？你反对么？
【在 r******i 的大作中提到】
: The difference of what you said and vaccine mandate are: laws restrict
: certain behavior. Mandates force you to take a certain action.
: Forced labor is comparable to a mandate. Asking all women to wear hajib is a
: type of mandate. How do you think about those?
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 56 Many places/countries does not have such requirement.
https://www.howtoliveindenmark.com/stories-about-life-in-denmark/nudity-in-
denmark/
"There are no laws prohibiting nudity in Danish parks and open spaces, and
anyone bothering a naked sunbather can be charged with disturbing the peace."
I wear cloths in public. But I don't think people should be mandated to wear
cloths in the public.
However, private entities, such as stores, restaurants, clubs, etc. can
establish dress code that people wear cloths, wear certain cloths, or not
wear cloths.
【在 D********r 的大作中提到】
:
: a
: 那在公共场所要求所有人穿衣服算不算mandate？你反对么？
|
D********r
发帖数: 135 | 57 身在美国，如果你家小孩是女孩，你愿意她去一个public park，里面很多裸男么？我
理解你的意思就是，我可以做我认为正确的做法，但即使这种做法是绝大多数人认同的
，政府也不应该强制。但现实生活就是不如你所愿，我想你也很难找到你的乌托邦了。
peace."
wear
【在 r******i 的大作中提到】
: Many places/countries does not have such requirement.
: https://www.howtoliveindenmark.com/stories-about-life-in-denmark/nudity-in-
: denmark/
: "There are no laws prohibiting nudity in Danish parks and open spaces, and
: anyone bothering a naked sunbather can be charged with disturbing the peace."
: I wear cloths in public. But I don't think people should be mandated to wear
: cloths in the public.
: However, private entities, such as stores, restaurants, clubs, etc. can
: establish dress code that people wear cloths, wear certain cloths, or not
: wear cloths.
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 58 If she is OK. So be it.
If she doesn't want to see naked man in the park, just play at home then.
I might not find my 乌托邦. But I will use my influence to get where I live
close to it.
【在 D********r 的大作中提到】
: 身在美国，如果你家小孩是女孩，你愿意她去一个public park，里面很多裸男么？我
: 理解你的意思就是，我可以做我认为正确的做法，但即使这种做法是绝大多数人认同的
: ，政府也不应该强制。但现实生活就是不如你所愿，我想你也很难找到你的乌托邦了。
:
: peace."
: wear
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 59 About wearing cloths "mandate", one more comment - if you support asking
everyone to wear cloths in the public, you should understand Islamic
countries asking women to wear hajib is as legitimate. Our social standard
in US thinks the boobs of women are sexual part, while boobs of men are not.
If you think about it, you will find there is not much reason in it, but
rather merely a tradition. What is "right" to you might not be "right" for
others.
How to solve the difference in different people's understanding and
tradition? In my opinion, we need to reduce the laws to the bare minimum,
and let people take care of their own values and traditions.
I don't mind wearing masks myself. But I find myself heart-breaking seeing
people get into conflicts and fightsabout masks. In my opinion, the mask
policy should be similar to Denmark's cloth policy - you can do whatever you
want in public spaces, such as roads and parks. However, each private
business can regulate their dress codes, including whether or not to wear a
face mask or hajib or whatever they think necessary.
【在 D********r 的大作中提到】
: 身在美国，如果你家小孩是女孩，你愿意她去一个public park，里面很多裸男么？我
: 理解你的意思就是，我可以做我认为正确的做法，但即使这种做法是绝大多数人认同的
: ，政府也不应该强制。但现实生活就是不如你所愿，我想你也很难找到你的乌托邦了。
:
: peace."
: wear
|
F********r
发帖数: 878 | 60 People didn't think so before 1968. They did not think so from 1890 to 1968
. Was driving a privilege or a right between 1890 and 1968? And tehn Tdap
vaccine, how come it is mandated for kids to go to school? Are you going to
say "Well, it is proven safe"? So is it a safety or a privilege problem?
【在 l****z 的大作中提到】
: 开车是privelege, 政府当然可以规定你开车应该怎么怎么了.
: 老实说NY这种地方还说开车不准吃东西, 有人听嘛?
|
F********r
发帖数: 878 | 61 >>What is "right" to you might not be "right" for others.
Good that we agree on this. So apply it to the covid vaccine mandate topic,
eventually it comes to majority. If the majority believes it is Right,
then it can be mandated. Do you agree with that?
not.
【在 r******i 的大作中提到】
: About wearing cloths "mandate", one more comment - if you support asking
: everyone to wear cloths in the public, you should understand Islamic
: countries asking women to wear hajib is as legitimate. Our social standard
: in US thinks the boobs of women are sexual part, while boobs of men are not.
: If you think about it, you will find there is not much reason in it, but
: rather merely a tradition. What is "right" to you might not be "right" for
: others.
: How to solve the difference in different people's understanding and
: tradition? In my opinion, we need to reduce the laws to the bare minimum,
: and let people take care of their own values and traditions.
|
D********r
发帖数: 135 | 62
not.
我只能说我会尊重伊斯兰国家的规则，但不代表我认同这些规则。我只是个普通人，在
绝大多数情况下，会认同绝大多数人的想法，比如在公共场合，男女都应该穿衣服，因
此，强制穿衣我觉得就是正确的，支持的，比如男女都应该有权利不戴面纱，所以强制
戴面纱就是错误的，反对的。
如果这种difference对别人不造成影响，我完全赞成个人自由。但如果一个人的自由建
立在对他人的侵犯上，我不支持。如果这次新冠不是传染病，而且是通过空气的传染病
，打不打疫苗，戴不戴口罩，我根本就无所谓，做好自己就好了。
【在 r******i 的大作中提到】
: About wearing cloths "mandate", one more comment - if you support asking
: everyone to wear cloths in the public, you should understand Islamic
: countries asking women to wear hajib is as legitimate. Our social standard
: in US thinks the boobs of women are sexual part, while boobs of men are not.
: If you think about it, you will find there is not much reason in it, but
: rather merely a tradition. What is "right" to you might not be "right" for
: others.
: How to solve the difference in different people's understanding and
: tradition? In my opinion, we need to reduce the laws to the bare minimum,
: and let people take care of their own values and traditions.
|
D********r
发帖数: 135 | 63 你能把该不该看到裸男这个权力交给你的女儿，而无论她的年龄，我只能说你是个与众
不同的华人家长，你的世界跟我们普通人不一样。
live
【在 r******i 的大作中提到】
: If she is OK. So be it.
: If she doesn't want to see naked man in the park, just play at home then.
: I might not find my 乌托邦. But I will use my influence to get where I live
: close to it.
|
F********r
发帖数: 878 | 64 You cannot use your norm to judge others. And your solution to this is "to
reduce the laws to the bare minimum". Unfortunately, we, the US, has
intervened others too much using this excuse.
not.
【在 r******i 的大作中提到】
: About wearing cloths "mandate", one more comment - if you support asking
: everyone to wear cloths in the public, you should understand Islamic
: countries asking women to wear hajib is as legitimate. Our social standard
: in US thinks the boobs of women are sexual part, while boobs of men are not.
: If you think about it, you will find there is not much reason in it, but
: rather merely a tradition. What is "right" to you might not be "right" for
: others.
: How to solve the difference in different people's understanding and
: tradition? In my opinion, we need to reduce the laws to the bare minimum,
: and let people take care of their own values and traditions.
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 65 I agree. If the majority agrees the vaccine should be mandated, and it's
reflected by their elected legislature that later put it into a law, I will
comply.
I comply to laws that I don't agree. Everyone should comply to laws they don
't agree.
topic,
【在 F********r 的大作中提到】
: >>What is "right" to you might not be "right" for others.
: Good that we agree on this. So apply it to the covid vaccine mandate topic,
: eventually it comes to majority. If the majority believes it is Right,
: then it can be mandated. Do you agree with that?
:
: not.
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 66 "to reduce the laws to the bare minimum" is the ideal that US is founded
upon.
If you don't like it, move to other countries, such as China, New Zealand,
etc.
to
【在 F********r 的大作中提到】
: You cannot use your norm to judge others. And your solution to this is "to
: reduce the laws to the bare minimum". Unfortunately, we, the US, has
: intervened others too much using this excuse.
:
: not.
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 67 And I'm not judging others. Where did I judge others? I said I'm against
mandates, is that judging others?
to
【在 F********r 的大作中提到】
: You cannot use your norm to judge others. And your solution to this is "to
: reduce the laws to the bare minimum". Unfortunately, we, the US, has
: intervened others too much using this excuse.
:
: not.
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 68 If I'm a normal 华人家长, I'd stay in China, or move back right now.
【在 D********r 的大作中提到】
: 你能把该不该看到裸男这个权力交给你的女儿，而无论她的年龄，我只能说你是个与众
: 不同的华人家长，你的世界跟我们普通人不一样。
:
: live
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 69 "如果这种difference对别人不造成影响，我完全赞成个人自由。但如果一个人的自由建
立在对他人的侵犯上，我不支持。如果这次新冠不是传染病，而且是通过空气的传染病
，打不打疫苗，戴不戴口罩，我根本就无所谓，做好自己就好了。"
You need data to support the claim "vaccine protects others" in order to
mandate vaccine to an individual. Current data shows that covid vaccine
mainly protect the one who got the jab, and barely control the spread.
Vaccinated or not, the Delta variant will transmit with a reproductive
number (R) greater than 1.
And if mandating vaccines is to protect others, why vaccine mandates
typically have religious exemption? If you are a Christian/Muslim/etc, you
don't need to protect others?
【在 D********r 的大作中提到】
: 你能把该不该看到裸男这个权力交给你的女儿，而无论她的年龄，我只能说你是个与众
: 不同的华人家长，你的世界跟我们普通人不一样。
:
: live
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 70 "我只能说我会尊重伊斯兰国家的规则，但不代表我认同这些规则。我只是个普通人，在
绝大多数情况下，会认同绝大多数人的想法，比如在公共场合，男女都应该穿衣服，因
此，强制穿衣我觉得就是正确的，支持的，比如男女都应该有权利不戴面纱，所以强制
戴面纱就是错误的，反对的。"
So if you are living in a Islamic country, you will obey their laws, right?
Or you can choose to leave the country?
We are living in the US, we obey US laws. Must wear cloths in the public?
Fine. Must wear seat belt when driving? Fine.
Must wear masks in the public? I'm sorry, there is no such law at least in
the place I'm living. So don't fuss about it. If you want it to be a law,
call your local legislature and ask them to make it into a law.
【在 D********r 的大作中提到】
: 你能把该不该看到裸男这个权力交给你的女儿，而无论她的年龄，我只能说你是个与众
: 不同的华人家长，你的世界跟我们普通人不一样。
:
: live
|
D********r
发帖数: 135 | 71 你现在连群体免疫都开始质疑，那我真的无话可说，只能说你脑洞新奇。
至于religious exemption，我是无神论者，根本就不信这一套，也觉得根本就不应该
存在这种exemption。
【在 r******i 的大作中提到】
: "我只能说我会尊重伊斯兰国家的规则，但不代表我认同这些规则。我只是个普通人，在
: 绝大多数情况下，会认同绝大多数人的想法，比如在公共场合，男女都应该穿衣服，因
: 此，强制穿衣我觉得就是正确的，支持的，比如男女都应该有权利不戴面纱，所以强制
: 戴面纱就是错误的，反对的。"
: So if you are living in a Islamic country, you will obey their laws, right?
: Or you can choose to leave the country?
: We are living in the US, we obey US laws. Must wear cloths in the public?
: Fine. Must wear seat belt when driving? Fine.
: Must wear masks in the public? I'm sorry, there is no such law at least in
: the place I'm living. So don't fuss about it. If you want it to be a law,
|
D********r
发帖数: 135 | 72
?
入乡随俗。或者我觉得不舒服就离开，我有走的权力。
美国除了法律，还有总统令，州长令，县长令，市长令，学校委员会令，都不是法律，
你都不需要遵守？世界没你想象的简单。我们讨论的是，这些需要大家遵守的政令，应
该遵循怎样的规则来指定，而不是应不应该遵守，你可以去法院挑战这个政令，但不能
因为他不合我意，我就故意用违反政令来挑战政令。回到口罩，现在某些地方强制口罩
，典型的政令，我们是在讨论这个政令是否合理，在这个特殊时期，当少数人利益跟大
多数人利益冲突时，是否应该为了满足少数人的一种自由（小孩不戴口罩的自由），而
损害大多数人的另一种自由（小孩安全上学的自由）。
【在 r******i 的大作中提到】
: "我只能说我会尊重伊斯兰国家的规则，但不代表我认同这些规则。我只是个普通人，在
: 绝大多数情况下，会认同绝大多数人的想法，比如在公共场合，男女都应该穿衣服，因
: 此，强制穿衣我觉得就是正确的，支持的，比如男女都应该有权利不戴面纱，所以强制
: 戴面纱就是错误的，反对的。"
: So if you are living in a Islamic country, you will obey their laws, right?
: Or you can choose to leave the country?
: We are living in the US, we obey US laws. Must wear cloths in the public?
: Fine. Must wear seat belt when driving? Fine.
: Must wear masks in the public? I'm sorry, there is no such law at least in
: the place I'm living. So don't fuss about it. If you want it to be a law,
|
D********r
发帖数: 135 | 73 所以，在你眼里，现在在美国的，都不是normal华人家长？
【在 r******i 的大作中提到】
: If I'm a normal 华人家长, I'd stay in China, or move back right now.
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 74 群体免疫 is not equal to eradication of the virus, and there is no rigid "
threshold" for herd immunity.
Because of the Delta variant and future variant that FOR SURE will evolve,
covid will evolve to a seasonal cold-like disease that every gets it once in
a couple of years.
Do you blame other people not being vaccinated when you catch a cold or flu?
One small suggestion for you: if you are an atheist, I think China fits your
ideal and beliefs better than the US. I think you will find living in China
is much more comfortable than living in US.
【在 D********r 的大作中提到】
: 你现在连群体免疫都开始质疑，那我真的无话可说，只能说你脑洞新奇。
: 至于religious exemption，我是无神论者，根本就不信这一套，也觉得根本就不应该
: 存在这种exemption。
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 75 I obey to executive orders too, even if I don't agree with them.
I think schools in Florida should obey the executive orders of their
governor as well.
【在 D********r 的大作中提到】
: 所以，在你眼里，现在在美国的，都不是normal华人家长？
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 76 I think they are not making a wise choice to stay in the US.
【在 D********r 的大作中提到】
: 所以，在你眼里，现在在美国的，都不是normal华人家长？
|
d********f
发帖数: 43471 | 77 你们得左x问题就是都是戏精，同温层嗓门大，实际上别人都把你们当精神病，你们还
以为自己是new norm
【在 D********r 的大作中提到】
: 所以，在你眼里，现在在美国的，都不是normal华人家长？
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 78 Exchange US to Iran, and rethink about this question:
"所以，在你眼里，现在在 Iran 的，都不是normal华人家长？"
【在 D********r 的大作中提到】
: 所以，在你眼里，现在在美国的，都不是normal华人家长？
|
D********r
发帖数: 135 | 79 你自己在质疑疫苗对他人的保护作用，而这是群体免疫的基础。目前说法是针对delta
，90%的疫苗率可以降低R到1以下，达到群免效率。讨论这个百分比，跟疫苗是否有保
护作用是两件事情。
至于感冒，如果新冠只是感冒，现在就不会有这么多争论，甚至不会成为疫情，但如果
感冒是西班牙大流感那种，却又另当别论。所以，你用普通感冒来类比新冠，本身就不
合适。
至于无神论，现实就是，美国现在相信上帝的年轻人也越来越少，他们都需要搬到中国
去么？你信上帝么？你去礼拜么？当然，别人爱信不信，跟我无关，因为这个不影响到
我的生活。反正纵观历史，所有的宗教，无论曾经多么辉煌，随着人类对自然对社会的
理解越来越深刻，最终都会被历史慢慢洗去。
in
flu?
your
China
【在 r******i 的大作中提到】
: 群体免疫 is not equal to eradication of the virus, and there is no rigid "
: threshold" for herd immunity.
: Because of the Delta variant and future variant that FOR SURE will evolve,
: covid will evolve to a seasonal cold-like disease that every gets it once in
: a couple of years.
: Do you blame other people not being vaccinated when you catch a cold or flu?
: One small suggestion for you: if you are an atheist, I think China fits your
: ideal and beliefs better than the US. I think you will find living in China
: is much more comfortable than living in US.
|
D********r
发帖数: 135 | 80 为什么school不应该遵守他们所在县的政令？为什么不是他们城市的政令？就因为州长
比县长大么？那为什么州长可以不遵守总统令？总统不比州长大么？
【在 r******i 的大作中提到】
: I obey to executive orders too, even if I don't agree with them.
: I think schools in Florida should obey the executive orders of their
: governor as well.
|
d********f
发帖数: 43471 | 81 你知道republic是啥意思么？
【在 D********r 的大作中提到】
: 为什么school不应该遵守他们所在县的政令？为什么不是他们城市的政令？就因为州长
: 比县长大么？那为什么州长可以不遵守总统令？总统不比州长大么？
|
D********r
发帖数: 135 | 82 如果你认为众人皆醉你独醒，那就没啥好说的，你都一棍子把绝大多数在美华人打死了
。为什么是绝大多数？因为在整个bbs，能够喊出该死就死的也就你独一家了，说明绝
大多数人跟你想法不一样。
【在 r******i 的大作中提到】
: I think they are not making a wise choice to stay in the US.
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 83 "目前说法是针对delta,90%的疫苗率可以降低R到1以下，达到群免效率" who said
that? And why do you think the US is preparing to allow booster shots for
people in a few months?
Covid's death rate pre-vaccine is 0.5% (average of all ages). According to
CDC, 99.99% vaccinated people will not have complication. White House says
covid is "pandemic among the unvaccinated". If you are vaccinated, covid is
just a cold for you.
"反正纵观历史，所有的宗教，无论曾经多么辉煌，随着人类对自然对社会的理解越来
越深刻，最终都会被历史慢慢洗去。"
I really think China will fit you better.
delta
【在 D********r 的大作中提到】
: 你自己在质疑疫苗对他人的保护作用，而这是群体免疫的基础。目前说法是针对delta
: ，90%的疫苗率可以降低R到1以下，达到群免效率。讨论这个百分比，跟疫苗是否有保
: 护作用是两件事情。
: 至于感冒，如果新冠只是感冒，现在就不会有这么多争论，甚至不会成为疫情，但如果
: 感冒是西班牙大流感那种，却又另当别论。所以，你用普通感冒来类比新冠，本身就不
: 合适。
: 至于无神论，现实就是，美国现在相信上帝的年轻人也越来越少，他们都需要搬到中国
: 去么？你信上帝么？你去礼拜么？当然，别人爱信不信，跟我无关，因为这个不影响到
: 我的生活。反正纵观历史，所有的宗教，无论曾经多么辉煌，随着人类对自然对社会的
: 理解越来越深刻，最终都会被历史慢慢洗去。
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 84 Well, that's the law in the US. Governors of States don't need to listen to
the Federal government, and city/county governments have to listen to the
Governors.
Maybe you think it's ridiculous just like women wear hajib in Islamic
countries. But that's what it is. That's how it works in the US.
【在 D********r 的大作中提到】
: 为什么school不应该遵守他们所在县的政令？为什么不是他们城市的政令？就因为州长
: 比县长大么？那为什么州长可以不遵守总统令？总统不比州长大么？
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 85 "绝大多数人跟你想法不一样。"
People can have different opinions - I think you would agree.
"能够喊出该死就死的也就你独一家了"
该死就死 is a natural result of US's law system and political reality. I'm
just providing you the fact. If you don't like to live in a country of 该死
就死, I suggest you to move to a country that is not 该死就死 - China.
【在 D********r 的大作中提到】
: 如果你认为众人皆醉你独醒，那就没啥好说的，你都一棍子把绝大多数在美华人打死了
: 。为什么是绝大多数？因为在整个bbs，能够喊出该死就死的也就你独一家了，说明绝
: 大多数人跟你想法不一样。
|
D********r
发帖数: 135 | 86 看来平时你看新闻不太关注covid方面的。
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-03/delta-s-spread-seen-
pushing-herd-immunity-threshold-above-80
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-19-vaccine-booster-shot-8-months/
is
这就是转移话题了。对于我，打了疫苗，covid并不可怕。但这世界上有那么多没打疫
苗了，打不了疫苗的，对他们而言，covid就不是个普通流感。开篇我就说明了，当你
想要表明自己观点的时候，需要说明你是站在哪个立场上来谈，是保护自己，还是保护
公众。立场不同，自然结论不同。
我真的认为这世上没有你的乌托邦，你也很难找到同路人。
【在 r******i 的大作中提到】
: "目前说法是针对delta,90%的疫苗率可以降低R到1以下，达到群免效率" who said
: that? And why do you think the US is preparing to allow booster shots for
: people in a few months?
: Covid's death rate pre-vaccine is 0.5% (average of all ages). According to
: CDC, 99.99% vaccinated people will not have complication. White House says
: covid is "pandemic among the unvaccinated". If you are vaccinated, covid is
: just a cold for you.
: "反正纵观历史，所有的宗教，无论曾经多么辉煌，随着人类对自然对社会的理解越来
: 越深刻，最终都会被历史慢慢洗去。"
: I really think China will fit you better.
|
D********r
发帖数: 135 | 87
如果美国是个该死就死的国家，何必有医院，何必开发疫苗，何必在这里争论，你又何
必打疫苗呢？可见，该死就死是你的个人看法罢了，而你事实上却又言行不一，打了疫
苗不想死。我尊重你的个人看法，但我不认同，我相信绝大部分人也不认同。只可惜这
个世界没有一个地方是你的乌托邦，可以找到众多跟你一样支持该死就死的人，享受该
死就死的生活。
【在 r******i 的大作中提到】
: "绝大多数人跟你想法不一样。"
: People can have different opinions - I think you would agree.
: "能够喊出该死就死的也就你独一家了"
: 该死就死 is a natural result of US's law system and political reality. I'm
: just providing you the fact. If you don't like to live in a country of 该死
: 就死, I suggest you to move to a country that is not 该死就死 - China.
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 88 "但这世界上有那么多没打疫苗了，打不了疫苗的，对他们而言，covid就不是个普通流
感。"
THEN LET THEM DIE!
【在 D********r 的大作中提到】
: 看来平时你看新闻不太关注covid方面的。
:
: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-03/delta-s-spread-seen-
: pushing-herd-immunity-threshold-above-80
: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-19-vaccine-booster-shot-8-months/
: is
: 这就是转移话题了。对于我，打了疫苗，covid并不可怕。但这世界上有那么多没打疫
: 苗了，打不了疫苗的，对他们而言，covid就不是个普通流感。开篇我就说明了，当你
: 想要表明自己观点的时候，需要说明你是站在哪个立场上来谈，是保护自己，还是保护
: 公众。立场不同，自然结论不同。
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 89 https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-03/delta-s-spread-seen-
pushing-herd-immunity-threshold-above-80
Above 80%. It does not mean 90%. And it does not mean if 90% people had
vaccine, covid's R is less than 1.
【在 D********r 的大作中提到】
: 看来平时你看新闻不太关注covid方面的。
:
: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-03/delta-s-spread-seen-
: pushing-herd-immunity-threshold-above-80
: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-19-vaccine-booster-shot-8-months/
: is
: 这就是转移话题了。对于我，打了疫苗，covid并不可怕。但这世界上有那么多没打疫
: 苗了，打不了疫苗的，对他们而言，covid就不是个普通流感。开篇我就说明了，当你
: 想要表明自己观点的时候，需要说明你是站在哪个立场上来谈，是保护自己，还是保护
: 公众。立场不同，自然结论不同。
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 90 If one took the vaccine and still dies from covid, or one chooses not to
take the vaccine and dies from covid, they just have to die.
What I have been saying is that for covid, specifically, everyone that would
die must die. Because everyone WILL BE exposed to covid, based on its
infectiousness, and the lack of legal support of more drastic measures in
the US and many other countries.
【在 D********r 的大作中提到】
:
: 如果美国是个该死就死的国家，何必有医院，何必开发疫苗，何必在这里争论，你又何
: 必打疫苗呢？可见，该死就死是你的个人看法罢了，而你事实上却又言行不一，打了疫
: 苗不想死。我尊重你的个人看法，但我不认同，我相信绝大部分人也不认同。只可惜这
: 个世界没有一个地方是你的乌托邦，可以找到众多跟你一样支持该死就死的人，享受该
: 死就死的生活。
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 91 In fact, Delta's R0 is about 6 (without vaccine). Current vaccines have less
than 50% protection against mild disease (and thus infectiousness). With a
simple math, you can see even if 100% people took the vaccine, Delta's R0 is
still more than 1.
Vaccine boosters may make the protection better. Again, even if 100% people
took the vaccine booster, it is quite likely that the R0 is still higher
than 1 just with vaccine induced immunity.
Covid will not be eradicated even if 100% of people took the vaccine. And
quite likely, with the fading of immunity, there will be more waves of
infection in future years.
So, scientifically speaking, you can't count on other people taking the
vaccine to protect yourself.
Immunocompromised people, too bad! If you would die from covid, you must die!
【在 D********r 的大作中提到】
: 看来平时你看新闻不太关注covid方面的。
:
: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-03/delta-s-spread-seen-
: pushing-herd-immunity-threshold-above-80
: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-19-vaccine-booster-shot-8-months/
: is
: 这就是转移话题了。对于我，打了疫苗，covid并不可怕。但这世界上有那么多没打疫
: 苗了，打不了疫苗的，对他们而言，covid就不是个普通流感。开篇我就说明了，当你
: 想要表明自己观点的时候，需要说明你是站在哪个立场上来谈，是保护自己，还是保护
: 公众。立场不同，自然结论不同。
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 92 What I'm always been against is mandates. And in fact, there is NO mandates
in the place that I'm living and working for vaccines or masks. I'm happy
with it.
【在 D********r 的大作中提到】
:
: 如果美国是个该死就死的国家，何必有医院，何必开发疫苗，何必在这里争论，你又何
: 必打疫苗呢？可见，该死就死是你的个人看法罢了，而你事实上却又言行不一，打了疫
: 苗不想死。我尊重你的个人看法，但我不认同，我相信绝大部分人也不认同。只可惜这
: 个世界没有一个地方是你的乌托邦，可以找到众多跟你一样支持该死就死的人，享受该
: 死就死的生活。
|
D********r
发帖数: 135 | 93 显然你连链接都没有点进去就开始发表言论了。里面清楚写着The spread of the
delta coronavirus variant has pushed the threshold for herd immunity to well
over 80% and potentially approaching 90%。你倒说说看，在R仍然大于1的情况下
，如何达到群体免疫。
【在 r******i 的大作中提到】
: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-03/delta-s-spread-seen-
: pushing-herd-immunity-threshold-above-80
: Above 80%. It does not mean 90%. And it does not mean if 90% people had
: vaccine, covid's R is less than 1.
|
D********r
发帖数: 135 | 94 毫无人性，无话可说。跟你的交流到此结束，希望你不要回我的贴，我也不会回你的帖
，大路朝天，各走一半。
【在 r******i 的大作中提到】
: "但这世界上有那么多没打疫苗了，打不了疫苗的，对他们而言，covid就不是个普通流
: 感。"
: THEN LET THEM DIE!
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 95 "The spread of the delta coronavirus variant has pushed the threshold for
herd immunity to well over 80% and potentially approaching 90%"
Do you understand this sentence is NOT to guarantee 90% is the "threshold"?
You want R to be less than 1 once and for all, and you call it "达到群体免疫
". What I want to tell you is, even if EVERYONE (100%) got the vaccine,
because of the waning of immunity, R will be greater than 1 at some time
point and a new outbreak would be seen.
well
【在 D********r 的大作中提到】
: 显然你连链接都没有点进去就开始发表言论了。里面清楚写着The spread of the
: delta coronavirus variant has pushed the threshold for herd immunity to well
: over 80% and potentially approaching 90%。你倒说说看，在R仍然大于1的情况下
: ，如何达到群体免疫。
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 96 EVERYONE THAT WOULD DIE FORM COVID MUST DIE!!!
【在 D********r 的大作中提到】
: 毫无人性，无话可说。跟你的交流到此结束，希望你不要回我的贴，我也不会回你的帖
: ，大路朝天，各走一半。
|
F********r
发帖数: 878 | 97 I just stated a fact. Where do you see I said anything about whether or not
I like it? Why so sensitive to tell people to go back to China? If you
like so much of everything in the US, why are you even against any mandate,
including Tdap? If you are against Tdap, why don't you move to Nam?
【在 r******i 的大作中提到】
: "to reduce the laws to the bare minimum" is the ideal that US is founded
: upon.
: If you don't like it, move to other countries, such as China, New Zealand,
: etc.
:
: to
|
F********r
发帖数: 878 | 98 That's exactly what other normal people see you trumpers.
提到: 】
【在 d********f 的大作中提到】
: 你知道republic是啥意思么？
|
F********r
发帖数: 878 | 99 EOs? You are now saying people should obey EOs? Didn't you say "give me
laws, otherwise f..k off"?
【在 r******i 的大作中提到】
: I obey to executive orders too, even if I don't agree with them.
: I think schools in Florida should obey the executive orders of their
: governor as well.
|
F********r
发帖数: 878 | 100 but you obey EOs now. If the EO mandates mask, what is your opinion? Obey
EO but against mandate at the same time?
mandates
【在 r******i 的大作中提到】
: What I'm always been against is mandates. And in fact, there is NO mandates
: in the place that I'm living and working for vaccines or masks. I'm happy
: with it.
|
F********r
发帖数: 878 | 101 Someone can kill your kids and say that too, right? How do you like it? Is
it cruel? Some people here have family members, relatives or friends who
have died from covid not by their own fault, your statement is like putting
salt on their wounds.
【在 r******i 的大作中提到】
: EVERYONE THAT WOULD DIE FORM COVID MUST DIE!!!
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 102 I'm against any mandates. But particularly, I'm not against my child to take
the Tdap vaccine. So I'm OK to let it be.
not
,
【在 F********r 的大作中提到】
: I just stated a fact. Where do you see I said anything about whether or not
: I like it? Why so sensitive to tell people to go back to China? If you
: like so much of everything in the US, why are you even against any mandate,
: including Tdap? If you are against Tdap, why don't you move to Nam?
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 103 About this particular point, I apologize for my previous posts of EO. I didn
't fully understand the legal authority of EOs before.
But I still think EOs should have time limits before it's accepted or denied
by the legislature.
【在 F********r 的大作中提到】
: EOs? You are now saying people should obey EOs? Didn't you say "give me
: laws, otherwise f..k off"?
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 104 I will follow all laws, including EOs.
If my governor mandates mask, he will not get my vote in the next election.
Obey
【在 F********r 的大作中提到】
: but you obey EOs now. If the EO mandates mask, what is your opinion? Obey
: EO but against mandate at the same time?
:
: mandates
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 105 I didn't kill anyone's kid, so it's a false analogy.
If someone killed my kid, I will kill the one that killed my kid, because it
's the killer's fault.
If my kid died from covid or other disease, I'd say that's their life and
fate, and is nobody's fault.
IF YOU DIED FROM A DISEASE, IT'S NOBODY'S FAULT! It's not Trump's fault, it'
s not Biden's fault, it's not China's fault, OK?
Dying from a disease is just part of the Nature!
Is
putting
【在 F********r 的大作中提到】
: Someone can kill your kids and say that too, right? How do you like it? Is
: it cruel? Some people here have family members, relatives or friends who
: have died from covid not by their own fault, your statement is like putting
: salt on their wounds.
|
r******i
发帖数: 1445 | 106 "Why so sensitive to tell people to go back to China?"
If preventing myself and my family member getting covid is the #1 priority
of my life, I would move to China as soon as I can.
If you and your family stays in the US for the next 3-5 years, the chance of
exposing to covid is close to 100%. (This is not a curse but just a fact,
check all the papers)
So be prepared for it while living in the US, or move to China to avoid
getting covid.
If you are talking about feeling bad for so many people dying from covid in
the US, then just keep feeling bad. Because there is nothing you can do to
change it. Politicians left and right are not doing anything constructive
here rather than gaining political talking point.
Again, this political nature of the US is not new at all. If you feel that
you can't live with this political reality in the US, maybe China is better
- At least "Someone" will always be held accountable for infectious disease.
not
,
【在 F********r 的大作中提到】
: I just stated a fact. Where do you see I said anything about whether or not
: I like it? Why so sensitive to tell people to go back to China? If you
: like so much of everything in the US, why are you even against any mandate,
: including Tdap? If you are against Tdap, why don't you move to Nam?
|
d********g
发帖数: 11948 | 107 你去看看百分比 这类人有多少 任何疫苗都有一定的副作用 anyway 每个人理解不同也
可以理解 没必要上纲上线
the
【在 n******h 的大作中提到】
: My friend's friend, 60-year-old European man, died shortly after the covid
: shot.
: My friend's sister, 50+ Chinese woman, developed blood clot right after the
: covid shot.
: What do you make of it?
|
l****z
发帖数: 29846 | 108 是没必要啊, 但是这东东连FDA都没批, long term impact test都没做. 然后有人打算
mandate说每人都要打. 这个到底是谁傻逼?
【在 d********g 的大作中提到】
: 你去看看百分比 这类人有多少 任何疫苗都有一定的副作用 anyway 每个人理解不同也
: 可以理解 没必要上纲上线
:
: the
|
p**********t
发帖数: 50 | 109 Because of the stupidity and recklessness of some people, some, of course
not all, other people got infected and died from covid. Yes, they did kill
those innocent people.
Similar to someone DUI and someone else gets killed.
it
it'
【在 r******i 的大作中提到】
: I didn't kill anyone's kid, so it's a false analogy.
: If someone killed my kid, I will kill the one that killed my kid, because it
: 's the killer's fault.
: If my kid died from covid or other disease, I'd say that's their life and
: fate, and is nobody's fault.
: IF YOU DIED FROM A DISEASE, IT'S NOBODY'S FAULT! It's not Trump's fault, it'
: s not Biden's fault, it's not China's fault, OK?
: Dying from a disease is just part of the Nature!
:
: Is
|
p**********t
发帖数: 50 | 110 The attitude of "if you don't like this or that in the US, then go back to
xxx" is ridiculous. We are not satisfied with something, we want to
complain and then fix the problem. Otherwise why do we need to legislature?
They are not satisfied with the existing laws, so they modify or make new
laws to make things better. You cannot tell them "if you don't like the
existing laws or current situation, immigrate to NK or China."
of
in
【在 r******i 的大作中提到】
: "Why so sensitive to tell people to go back to China?"
: If preventing myself and my family member getting covid is the #1 priority
: of my life, I would move to China as soon as I can.
: If you and your family stays in the US for the next 3-5 years, the chance of
: exposing to covid is close to 100%. (This is not a curse but just a fact,
: check all the papers)
: So be prepared for it while living in the US, or move to China to avoid
: getting covid.
: If you are talking about feeling bad for so many people dying from covid in
: the US, then just keep feeling bad. Because there is nothing you can do to
|
