那些质疑health care是基本人权的人 - USANews版

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USANews版 - 那些质疑health care是基本人权的人

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话题: right话题: people话题: health话题: your话题: care

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(共1页)

v******e
发帖数: 264

让我惊讶这些人的基本素质和人文关怀
竟然有些人拿住豪宅和f**k做反例，让人汗颜。
人权要保护的是生命尊严的底线。如果你没有收入换取食物和水，可以领救济；如果你
没有住所，政府可以提供shelter；
如果你得病，医院不会见死不救。救济，廉租屋和基础医疗都是社会道德norm的一部分
，但是维持道德底线远离原始社会
要有一定代价，所以大家要交税，让政府这个管家维持社会均横。道理就是这么简单。
但是人权维护的仅仅是底线，如果你想吃美食，住豪宅，用昂贵的药，那么这属于你个
人追求，不在基本人权范畴内。如
果有人拿sex打比方，那么我可以反驳，人权表示社会不会因为你masterbate而把你送
进监狱，但是寻找有爱情有身材的
sex partner就属于luxury consumption了。
尽管我并不认为巴马的uhc总体上来讲是一个好的政策，而且强烈怀疑现在的提案不能
improve social welfare，但是我对
于他的motivation - health care is a basic human rights没有任何质疑。有些人仅
仅从自己年轻不需要healthcare或者

m***s
发帖数: 1094

是不是人权是一回事，这个改革采取的手段能不能见效是另一回事
当年大跃进的时候让把各家锅灶都砸了全上生产队食堂吃饭也是个创举，结果饿死的人
不计其数

【在 v******e 的大作中提到】

: 让我惊讶这些人的基本素质和人文关怀
: 竟然有些人拿住豪宅和f**k做反例，让人汗颜。
: 人权要保护的是生命尊严的底线。如果你没有收入换取食物和水，可以领救济；如果你
: 没有住所，政府可以提供shelter；
: 如果你得病，医院不会见死不救。救济，廉租屋和基础医疗都是社会道德norm的一部分
: ，但是维持道德底线远离原始社会
: 要有一定代价，所以大家要交税，让政府这个管家维持社会均横。道理就是这么简单。
: 但是人权维护的仅仅是底线，如果你想吃美食，住豪宅，用昂贵的药，那么这属于你个
: 人追求，不在基本人权范畴内。如
: 果有人拿sex打比方，那么我可以反驳，人权表示社会不会因为你masterbate而把你送

v******e
发帖数: 264

这个改革到现在为止的确不怎么高明。
但是我相信凭现在一些人的态度，就算是最优的改革也会遭到他们的反对。
因为认同"医保是一项人权"会损害他们当前的利益。
你投票让大家选，你是愿意当原始社会的奴隶主，还是当民主社会的平民，这些人肯定
选前者。

【在 m***s 的大作中提到】

: 是不是人权是一回事，这个改革采取的手段能不能见效是另一回事
: 当年大跃进的时候让把各家锅灶都砸了全上生产队食堂吃饭也是个创举，结果饿死的人
: 不计其数

m***s
发帖数: 1094

医保当然要改，但是现在这个违背经济规律的改法还不如不改，这种改法改下去就是到
最后大家都完蛋。
去年Whole Foods的老板提了一个很好的办法，就是以health saving account为主要思
路的保险，结果被左派小将抵制得一塌糊涂。
这个改革完全忽视了人的自私本性，即使出发点是好的，最后也脱不了失败的结局。夏
威夷几年前搞过一个针对低收入家庭儿童的保险计划，结果很多家庭收入并不低的也都
想办法把自己的孩子搞到这个保险里去，不到几个月就把州里的钱花光了，保险计划也
就此破产，大家又回到原来的老路上。现在这个改革的空子更多，不说别的，光是那条
“你不买保险只要交罚款就行，等到有病在买保险人还不能不卖给你”就足够把整个医
疗保险业整垮

【在 v******e 的大作中提到】

: 这个改革到现在为止的确不怎么高明。
: 但是我相信凭现在一些人的态度，就算是最优的改革也会遭到他们的反对。
: 因为认同"医保是一项人权"会损害他们当前的利益。
: 你投票让大家选，你是愿意当原始社会的奴隶主，还是当民主社会的平民，这些人肯定
: 选前者。

O*****g
发帖数: 1257

hehe, liberals value good intentions above both truth and
outcomes.
As I said in one of my previous post, apparently you care a lot
about poor and disadvantaged people. So why don't you and
all your socialist friends take up a collection, start a charity to
provide health care for low income people. It would put your
money where you mouth is, and it's morally superior to using
government force to make other people pay.
It's phony compassion to say you care about the poor, and
then go rely on the

【在 v******e 的大作中提到】

O*****g
发帖数: 1257

bingo
好多小左后悔给 whole foods 送钱送了这么久

【在 m***s 的大作中提到】

: 医保当然要改，但是现在这个违背经济规律的改法还不如不改，这种改法改下去就是到
: 最后大家都完蛋。
: 去年Whole Foods的老板提了一个很好的办法，就是以health saving account为主要思
: 路的保险，结果被左派小将抵制得一塌糊涂。
: 这个改革完全忽视了人的自私本性，即使出发点是好的，最后也脱不了失败的结局。夏
: 威夷几年前搞过一个针对低收入家庭儿童的保险计划，结果很多家庭收入并不低的也都
: 想办法把自己的孩子搞到这个保险里去，不到几个月就把州里的钱花光了，保险计划也
: 就此破产，大家又回到原来的老路上。现在这个改革的空子更多，不说别的，光是那条
: “你不买保险只要交罚款就行，等到有病在买保险人还不能不卖给你”就足够把整个医
: 疗保险业整垮

A*******s
发帖数: 3942

只要站在道德制高点上的政客
是否就能捞到选票？
还是老毛说得好，他更乐意和美国右派打交道
要是整天把人权自由福利挂嘴边的左棍们能把国家治理好
共产主义早就统一全球了

【在 v******e 的大作中提到】

N********n
发帖数: 8363

Just another economy illiterate liberal thinking there's endless amount
of money to spend. Time for a short lesson of economics for dummies:
#1 The mass spending forces government to rip off the productive people.
#2 The more you screw the productive people, the more job loss and the
less they produce, at the end the less for government to tax.
#3 The above downward spiral leads to a perennially debt growth.
#4 Government has no choice but to devalue Dollar to clean up the debt.
#5 As Dollar co

【在 v******e 的大作中提到】

f*******l
发帖数: 8811

"如果有人拿sex打比方，那么我可以反驳，人权表示社会不会因为你masterbate而
把你送进监狱，但是寻找有爱情有身材的sex partner就属于luxury consumption了
。"
我怎么就看不出来你这个怎么就能称作反驳了呢。
对于 sex 的问题, 那些弱势群体应该是非常不attractive甚至disgusting的。他们
根本没有能力找到sex partner,于是只好masterbate甚至就是憋着。按照你的一贯
逻辑，政府是应该负责给他们找到sex partner的。而且虽然不一定是blonde之类的
luxury的partner，但是至少是要达到一定标准的。如果你让这些没有竞争力的弱势群
体自己去找 partner 甚至是去自己解决性需要，那就等于是在health care问题上让
那些弱势群体自己买保险或者自己治病甚至利用自身免疫力去康复一样。
基于你的并不让我们吃惊的基本素质和人文关怀，你是应该负责给这样的弱势群体
解决 sex partner 的问题的。加油！我们拭目以待。

【在 v******e 的大作中提到】

f*******l
发帖数: 8811

做慈善的很多,人家都是自己掏钱.
这帮富有"基本素质和人文关怀"的道德家们可好，他请客，大家掏钱。而且还要站
在道德制高点上鄙视你们。
真是超赞。

【在 O*****g 的大作中提到】

: hehe, liberals value good intentions above both truth and
: outcomes.
: As I said in one of my previous post, apparently you care a lot
: about poor and disadvantaged people. So why don't you and
: all your socialist friends take up a collection, start a charity to
: provide health care for low income people. It would put your
: money where you mouth is, and it's morally superior to using
: government force to make other people pay.
: It's phony compassion to say you care about the poor, and
: then go rely on the

相关主题
● 为什么马英九怕谈人权？	● Trump dominating Google searches today
● 政治領袖要從同性戀/變性戀權力擴張情況下去保護婚姻與兒童 (转载)	● 开始旗帜鲜明的支持马凯
● 杀人犯投诉英国法院，称终身监禁侵犯人权	● 刚从bill的演讲归来
进入USANews版参与讨论

B**W
发帖数: 2273

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."
- Winston Churchill
hehe, this is funny. Do you know why Churchill lost the election after WWII
and when did UK start the Universal Health Care? Socialism might be bad, but
Universal Health Care was what people wanted.

【在 N********n 的大作中提到】

:
: Just another economy illiterate liberal thinking there's endless amount
: of money to spend. Time for a short lesson of economics for dummies:
: #1 The mass spending forces government to rip off the productive people.
: #2 The more you screw the productive people, the more job loss and the
: less they produce, at the end the less for government to tax.
: #3 The above downward spiral leads to a perennially debt growth.
: #4 Government has no choice but to devalue Dollar to clean up the debt.
: #5 As Dollar co

N********n
发帖数: 8363

And why don't you go a little further down on UK's history to find out
where the socialism free lunch landed UK at. In 1960's, Pound had to be
devalued. In 1970's, UK had to be bailed out by IMF. At this very moment,
UK is experiencing the same Greece struggle.
You don't need any more proof to see Churchill was right.

【在 B**W 的大作中提到】

: "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the
: gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."
: - Winston Churchill
: hehe, this is funny. Do you know why Churchill lost the election after WWII
: and when did UK start the Universal Health Care? Socialism might be bad, but
: Universal Health Care was what people wanted.

v******e
发帖数: 264

【在 O*****g 的大作中提到】

v******e
发帖数: 264

for what? 伴侣不是生存的基本需要。

【在 f*******l 的大作中提到】

: "如果有人拿sex打比方，那么我可以反驳，人权表示社会不会因为你masterbate而
: 把你送进监狱，但是寻找有爱情有身材的sex partner就属于luxury consumption了
: 。"
: 我怎么就看不出来你这个怎么就能称作反驳了呢。
: 对于 sex 的问题, 那些弱势群体应该是非常不attractive甚至disgusting的。他们
: 根本没有能力找到sex partner,于是只好masterbate甚至就是憋着。按照你的一贯
: 逻辑，政府是应该负责给他们找到sex partner的。而且虽然不一定是blonde之类的
: luxury的partner，但是至少是要达到一定标准的。如果你让这些没有竞争力的弱势群
: 体自己去找 partner 甚至是去自己解决性需要，那就等于是在health care问题上让
: 那些弱势群体自己买保险或者自己治病甚至利用自身免疫力去康复一样。

v******e
发帖数: 264

我不是liberal，也不赞同现在的医疗改革。
我只是惊讶有人对于穷人应当享有基础医疗，不会因为没有钱而被晾在一边的怀疑。
这和共产主义完全是两回事。
看你这么急忙地批判一大堆，基本肯定你属于选择当原始社会奴隶主而非民主社会平民
的人。

【在 N********n 的大作中提到】

:
: And why don't you go a little further down on UK's history to find out
: where the socialism free lunch landed UK at. In 1960's, Pound had to be
: devalued. In 1970's, UK had to be bailed out by IMF. At this very moment,
: UK is experiencing the same Greece struggle.
: You don't need any more proof to see Churchill was right.

B**W
发帖数: 2273

You might be right. But the point is when people are vulnerable, they like
UHC. You may be confident with your career and your health, but many are
preparing for the worst scenarios.
Plus, UHC could not fully explain UK's decline. Think about Germany, France,
they also had UHC but were much better than UK back then.

【在 N********n 的大作中提到】

B**W
发帖数: 2273

f*******l
发帖数: 8811

什么for what? 什么伴侣？
如果你认为 sex 问题不是基本人权基本需要，你开始就该提出来嘛。那么那就是
另一个辩论题目了。
可是你开始可是说，对于 sex 问题，你可以反驳 blah blah.
可是你的反驳根本就是一窍不通颠三倒四嘛。

【在 v******e 的大作中提到】

: for what? 伴侣不是生存的基本需要。

f*******l
发帖数: 8811

你们这帮家伙啊。也不是一天两天的，动不动就是原始社会了。
你们能不能事前搞搞清楚什么是原始社会？原始社会的基本特征是什么？
原始社会，生产资料公有，社会资源共享。这似乎是更倾向于你们的选择哦。怎么
莫名其妙的安到了反方的头上。难道就因为原始社会的字眼不好听的缘故吗？

【在 v******e 的大作中提到】

: 我不是liberal，也不赞同现在的医疗改革。
: 我只是惊讶有人对于穷人应当享有基础医疗，不会因为没有钱而被晾在一边的怀疑。
: 这和共产主义完全是两回事。
: 看你这么急忙地批判一大堆，基本肯定你属于选择当原始社会奴隶主而非民主社会平民
: 的人。

v******e
发帖数: 264

我在讲sex；你可以和你自己have sex，满足你的基本需求。
你在讲sex partner，没人愿意搭理你属于高级需求不被满足。
更重要的是，多么不attractive的人其实都能找到partner，但是通常人都比较贱，看
不上容易到手的东西。
归根到底，是一个选择问题，不是需求问题。

【在 f*******l 的大作中提到】

: 什么for what? 什么伴侣？
: 如果你认为 sex 问题不是基本人权基本需要，你开始就该提出来嘛。那么那就是
: 另一个辩论题目了。
: 可是你开始可是说，对于 sex 问题，你可以反驳 blah blah.
: 可是你的反驳根本就是一窍不通颠三倒四嘛。

相关主题
● 天道轮回，报应不爽	● 听不懂黄西笑话里双关语的要多想想
● 关于医疗改革，涂鸦两句	● 黄西是个很好用的石蕊测试
● 我支持医疗改革	● 政府强迫个人买医疗保险违宪
进入USANews版参与讨论

N********n
发帖数: 8363

WHOA!!! You had the nerve to accuse me of 原始社会奴隶主?! That's dense.
That's rich coming from you who want to spend the money you don't have
and spend it like there's no tomorrow and then pass a mountain of debt
to future generations. You are ENSLAVING your own kids and grand kids
to pay for your irresponsible spending, and yet still want to go around
pretending you are of some kinda "民主社会平民的人"
Veli veli dense and hypocritical.

【在 v******e 的大作中提到】

: 我在讲sex；你可以和你自己have sex，满足你的基本需求。
: 你在讲sex partner，没人愿意搭理你属于高级需求不被满足。
: 更重要的是，多么不attractive的人其实都能找到partner，但是通常人都比较贱，看
: 不上容易到手的东西。
: 归根到底，是一个选择问题，不是需求问题。

f*******l
发帖数: 8811

如果 sex，你可以和你自己 have sex, 满足你的基本需要。
那么 health 问题，你也可以自己锻炼身体保持健康，依靠你自身免疫力战胜疾病
嘛。
而且，你的多么不 attracitive 的人都能找到 partner 的说法简直就是一派胡言。
你是怎么得出这个结论的？举个最简单的例子，中国出生男婴和女婴比例已经达到了
接近 120：100，他们到了结婚年龄，就算能完美的找到 1：1 配对，那还有接近20%
的男子无法找到 partner呢。
如果你找 partner 是选择问题，那么同样的，你找医生也是选择问题，你买医疗保险
也是选择问题。

【在 v******e 的大作中提到】

B**W
发帖数: 2273

What are passed to the next generation is not only debt, but also welfare,
safety, and kinda equality.

【在 N********n 的大作中提到】

:
: WHOA!!! You had the nerve to accuse me of 原始社会奴隶主?! That's dense.
: That's rich coming from you who want to spend the money you don't have
: and spend it like there's no tomorrow and then pass a mountain of debt
: to future generations. You are ENSLAVING your own kids and grand kids
: to pay for your irresponsible spending, and yet still want to go around
: pretending you are of some kinda "民主社会平民的人"
: Veli veli dense and hypocritical.

v******e
发帖数: 264

【在 N********n 的大作中提到】

N********n
发帖数: 8363

So if I own a mortgage that I cannot afford, what to do? Would you take my
debt over? Why not? I'm sure you can find a great deal of welfare,
safety and equality that comes w/ my debt. You guys are jokes.

【在 B**W 的大作中提到】

: What are passed to the next generation is not only debt, but also welfare,
: safety, and kinda equality.

v******e
发帖数: 264

不打算再和你这样胡搅蛮缠的人理论更多东西。
见下。

有了sex的需要以后，你可以自己解决；有了看病的需要以后，多数人无法自己解决。
没有sex你不会死；不看病人会死。
中国人是否一定要找中国人当partner？是否一定要找同龄中国人当partner？是否一定
要1:1的partner？不要和我讲结婚，
结婚is not a right but a previlege。
具体的医生，用药，和保险好坏，都是上层问题。就像我说基础医疗不会cover你用昂
贵的进口药，但是要保证病人得到*最
基本*的救护。即便是在很多实现了uhc的国家，人得了不治之症以后的药费还是要自己
负担的，这和免费基础医疗不矛盾。

【在 f*******l 的大作中提到】

: 如果 sex，你可以和你自己 have sex, 满足你的基本需要。
: 那么 health 问题，你也可以自己锻炼身体保持健康，依靠你自身免疫力战胜疾病
: 嘛。
: 而且，你的多么不 attracitive 的人都能找到 partner 的说法简直就是一派胡言。
: 你是怎么得出这个结论的？举个最简单的例子，中国出生男婴和女婴比例已经达到了
: 接近 120：100，他们到了结婚年龄，就算能完美的找到 1：1 配对，那还有接近20%
: 的男子无法找到 partner呢。
: 如果你找 partner 是选择问题，那么同样的，你找医生也是选择问题，你买医疗保险
: 也是选择问题。

B**W
发帖数: 2273

Both your mortgage and your house. Isn't it normal on the market?

【在 N********n 的大作中提到】

:
: So if I own a mortgage that I cannot afford, what to do? Would you take my
: debt over? Why not? I'm sure you can find a great deal of welfare,
: safety and equality that comes w/ my debt. You guys are jokes.

N********n
发帖数: 8363

The fact that Social Security, Medicaid and Medicare have accumulated
50T of unfunded liability proves you guys are spending like crazy, OK?
It's a fact. Don't even try to deny it.
Hospitals have no obligation to offer 基本的护理和治疗, alright? The real
solution is to bring the health care expense down so that everyone could
afford it themselves. No reason for it to stay high as modern technology
has lowered the cost across the field.

【在 v******e 的大作中提到】

N********n
发帖数: 8363

Why the house? If you think it's OK to spend future generations' money
for your own health, you should feel OK to allow me pass the bill to you
while I can enjoy living in the house.

【在 B**W 的大作中提到】

: Both your mortgage and your house. Isn't it normal on the market?

m*********a
发帖数: 3299

can you answer the question? yes or no for people with no money? Cost
structure is a different question and everyone wants the cost to go down.

【在 N********n 的大作中提到】

:
: Why the house? If you think it's OK to spend future generations' money
: for your own health, you should feel OK to allow me pass the bill to you
: while I can enjoy living in the house.

相关主题
● 美国真是个鼓励做懒人的地方啊	● 社会主义美国
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● 希拉里至少有一句话是对的	● "You are not allowed to keep your own child"
进入USANews版参与讨论

N********n
发帖数: 8363

Of course a FAT NO!!!

【在 m*********a 的大作中提到】

: can you answer the question? yes or no for people with no money? Cost
: structure is a different question and everyone wants the cost to go down.

v******e
发帖数: 264

你开完笑吧，除非价格为0，否则不可能*每一个人*都能看得起病。
降低医疗成本，应当是巴马政策实施需要考虑的问题，但和全民医疗的精神无关。
只能说，降低医疗成本以后，让*每一个人*都能够享受基本的生存权利的代价会更低。

【在 N********n 的大作中提到】

:
: Of course a FAT NO!!!

v******e
发帖数: 264

there we go.... 我看accuse你选择当奴隶主是veli veli轻的

【在 N********n 的大作中提到】

:
: Of course a FAT NO!!!

B**W
发帖数: 2273

hehe, now we see who want to spend other people's money.
OK. We give the next generation something good and something important and
they may or may not need to pay something. The national debt is a short-term
phenomenon. Look at late 1990s.
Plus, should we pay highway fees because the highway system was built in
1960s and 70s? Just think things this way. It is always like the previous
generation left something good and something bad.

【在 N********n 的大作中提到】

:
: Of course a FAT NO!!!

B**W
发帖数: 2273

Then it seems we have no ground for further exchange.

【在 N********n 的大作中提到】

:
: Of course a FAT NO!!!

f*******l
发帖数: 8811

在那里装作高姿态的不想理论，还喷出那么一大陀。你可真是幽默啊。
而且说道胡搅蛮缠，似乎是你在胡搅蛮缠啊。
1.别人有了sex 需要，就可以自己解决；那么你有了看病的需要，为什么就不能自
己解决？不是有很多人都在那里抱怨医生就是到电脑上查资料开药方嘛。你可以自
己分析一下你的症状，然后到网上到图书馆找找资料，然后自己对症下药嘛。或者
，直接就依靠自己的免疫力，很多疾病自己就康复了。
如果你觉得你自己看病依靠自身免疫力的方法，比去医院看病有差别，不专业。那
么，对于 sex 你自己解决，和你找了一个 sexy partner解决，是不是差别也很大
呢？这个差别哪个更大呢？我看后者绝对是不小的。
2.对于中国婚配问题。也不知道您是无知呢还是智力水平有问题。总之你的回答简
直是让我目瞪口呆。中国婴儿出生比例近年来一直都是男女严重不平衡。如果他们
到了结婚年龄，他们怎么找？就算他们找到高年龄段的，假设其他年龄段的是平衡
的，那也更本就没有多余的分配给其他年龄段的。更何况，如此下去，很快所有年
龄段的就都会不平衡了。也就是说，所有年龄段的都是严重男多女少。更何况，对
于男人来说，很少会有去找年

【在 v******e 的大作中提到】

: 不打算再和你这样胡搅蛮缠的人理论更多东西。
: 见下。
:
: 有了sex的需要以后，你可以自己解决；有了看病的需要以后，多数人无法自己解决。
: 没有sex你不会死；不看病人会死。
: 中国人是否一定要找中国人当partner？是否一定要找同龄中国人当partner？是否一定
: 要1:1的partner？不要和我讲结婚，
: 结婚is not a right but a previlege。
: 具体的医生，用药，和保险好坏，都是上层问题。就像我说基础医疗不会cover你用昂
: 贵的进口药，但是要保证病人得到*最

m*********a
发帖数: 3299

It really cracks me up. Can you operate a surgery on your own brain? can you
cut out your half of bad liver? If you could, you had a point. If not you
were a moron.

【在 f*******l 的大作中提到】

: 在那里装作高姿态的不想理论，还喷出那么一大陀。你可真是幽默啊。
: 而且说道胡搅蛮缠，似乎是你在胡搅蛮缠啊。
: 1.别人有了sex 需要，就可以自己解决；那么你有了看病的需要，为什么就不能自
: 己解决？不是有很多人都在那里抱怨医生就是到电脑上查资料开药方嘛。你可以自
: 己分析一下你的症状，然后到网上到图书馆找找资料，然后自己对症下药嘛。或者
: ，直接就依靠自己的免疫力，很多疾病自己就康复了。
: 如果你觉得你自己看病依靠自身免疫力的方法，比去医院看病有差别，不专业。那
: 么，对于 sex 你自己解决，和你找了一个 sexy partner解决，是不是差别也很大
: 呢？这个差别哪个更大呢？我看后者绝对是不小的。
: 2.对于中国婚配问题。也不知道您是无知呢还是智力水平有问题。总之你的回答简

N********n
发帖数: 8363

So what do you do for a living? You just sit there contributing nothing,
and yet the society should provide you food, health care, transportation,
housing, education and so on?! You are living in LALA land.

【在 v******e 的大作中提到】

: there we go.... 我看accuse你选择当奴隶主是veli veli轻的

O*****g
发帖数: 1257

Health Care isn't a Right. If you think that it is, the you don't
understand what a 'right' is.
The concept of a "right" pertains only to action -- specifically, to freedom
of action. It means freedom from physical compulsion, coercion or
interference by other men.
You have a right to your OWN life. You do not have a right to anyone else's
life (firefighters, policemen, doctors, etc...) So the services they
provide are not 'rights' they are services.
Tell me, do you agree health care is the

【在 v******e 的大作中提到】

:
: 你开完笑吧，除非价格为0，否则不可能*每一个人*都能看得起病。
: 降低医疗成本，应当是巴马政策实施需要考虑的问题，但和全民医疗的精神无关。
: 只能说，降低医疗成本以后，让*每一个人*都能够享受基本的生存权利的代价会更低。

v******e
发帖数: 264

u have a problem understanding ppl's argument.
go and enjoy yourself.

【在 f*******l 的大作中提到】

相关主题
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N********n
发帖数: 8363

The way you advocate an abysmal pile of debt for your own kid and grand
kid and still feel proud of it, I doubt you deserve to accuse anyone.

【在 v******e 的大作中提到】

: there we go.... 我看accuse你选择当奴隶主是veli veli轻的

N********n
发帖数: 8363

No, it's not. Just look Obama's own budget prediction for this decade.
Or you can take a look at Greece, PIIGS and so on and try to figure out
where all these socialist programs will lead you to.

【在 B**W 的大作中提到】

: Then it seems we have no ground for further exchange.

f*******l
发帖数: 8811

在那里胡搅蛮缠，然后还虚伪矫情地装作高姿态不理论了。到了最后，也就剩下赤
裸裸的PA乐。
我早就知道你们这号的就是这幅德性。

【在 v******e 的大作中提到】

: u have a problem understanding ppl's argument.
: go and enjoy yourself.

m*********a
发帖数: 3299

During a complex medical treatment, it is likely that many will exhaust his
saving. It is easy enough to spend a half million dollars to treat a
multiple heart attacks. You mean that you should allow to die when another
heart attack hits you because you have spent all your money in your previous
two heart attacks?

【在 N********n 的大作中提到】

:
: No, it's not. Just look Obama's own budget prediction for this decade.
: Or you can take a look at Greece, PIIGS and so on and try to figure out
: where all these socialist programs will lead you to.

v******e
发帖数: 264

对一个人基本生存权的承认，和该人的种族性别职业收入不应当有任何关系。
世界上当然有这样绝对等级分明的国家，为什么很少人考虑往那里搬迁？
最低生存权得不到保障的地方，通常居民的平均生存机率也会下降。因为会有更多社会
问题引发的犯罪和动荡。
人不要太自私，也不要太短视。

【在 N********n 的大作中提到】

N********n
发帖数: 8363

Yes, you are allowed to if you are that unlucky.

【在 m*********a 的大作中提到】

: During a complex medical treatment, it is likely that many will exhaust his
: saving. It is easy enough to spend a half million dollars to treat a
: multiple heart attacks. You mean that you should allow to die when another
: heart attack hits you because you have spent all your money in your previous
: two heart attacks?

p***r
发帖数: 195

你们这帮liberal总是占据道德制高点，然后就控制每个人的生活
吃饭是基本人权，你也不能要求国家弄一免费的公共食堂对把？
现在后塞音要作的是控制我们的生活，收税，这种事情也就你们左棍特别喜欢

【在 v******e 的大作中提到】

m*********a
发帖数: 3299

Right always associates with a society structure. In a slave society,
nothing is a right. In this society, health care will become a right like
food.
In addition we are not discussing the debt issue. We are saying whether we
should give health care for people with no money. In fact, we had already
done so for many years before obama care passed. It is emergency room care
for the uninsured and medicaid for the poor.

N********n
发帖数: 8363

If A asks B to pay for A's own expense, and B refuses to, then it's A not
B that is selfish. Understood?

【在 v******e 的大作中提到】

: 对一个人基本生存权的承认，和该人的种族性别职业收入不应当有任何关系。
: 世界上当然有这样绝对等级分明的国家，为什么很少人考虑往那里搬迁？
: 最低生存权得不到保障的地方，通常居民的平均生存机率也会下降。因为会有更多社会
: 问题引发的犯罪和动荡。
: 人不要太自私，也不要太短视。

v******e
发帖数: 264

又来一个把维持0底线当共产主义，不分动机和政策的人

【在 p***r 的大作中提到】

: 你们这帮liberal总是占据道德制高点，然后就控制每个人的生活
: 吃饭是基本人权，你也不能要求国家弄一免费的公共食堂对把？
: 现在后塞音要作的是控制我们的生活，收税，这种事情也就你们左棍特别喜欢

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● 天道轮回，报应不爽	● 听不懂黄西笑话里双关语的要多想想
进入USANews版参与讨论

v******e
发帖数: 264

if B cannot foresee the chance that by sharing less, B will receive less
salary in future b/c A may kill B or B have
to hire a guard to prevent himself from being attacked, then B is short
sighted.

【在 N********n 的大作中提到】

:
: If A asks B to pay for A's own expense, and B refuses to, then it's A not
: B that is selfish. Understood?

m*********a
发帖数: 3299

no, food is not always a right. Food becomes a right only very recently when
green evolution provided enough food. Food was always scare before this. So
health care will become a right like food in the human history. And do not
be paroid, no one wants to control your life. As for tax, personal income
tax rate in US is very very low. If you really want to experience what is
high tax, go to Canada or Europe. You will be lucky if you can get $25000
back for your $50000 income. Tax will go high and

【在 p***r 的大作中提到】

N********n
发帖数: 8363

You are not WILLING to discuss debt issue b/c you don't want the world to
notice you are stealing grand kids' money, which would smash your "we
have good hearts" liberal fraud into pieces.

【在 m*********a 的大作中提到】

: no, food is not always a right. Food becomes a right only very recently when
: green evolution provided enough food. Food was always scare before this. So
: health care will become a right like food in the human history. And do not
: be paroid, no one wants to control your life. As for tax, personal income
: tax rate in US is very very low. If you really want to experience what is
: high tax, go to Canada or Europe. You will be lucky if you can get $25000
: back for your $50000 income. Tax will go high and

m***s
发帖数: 1094

动机政策也是有条件的，不是说是个人就该帮
芝加哥的混混现在纷纷往周围的州搬，为什么？因为这些州的社会福利给得高，很多人
就看准了这一点搬到这些地方，那些光领钱不干事的还算好的，要命的是那些光领钱不
干活还到处偷摸抢的，听一个老住户说自从这两年芝加哥的混混开始大规模搬迁过来以
后这里治安差多了。
对这些人，帮他们就是助长他们的寄生虫习气，无底洞根本填不完

【在 v******e 的大作中提到】

: 又来一个把维持0底线当共产主义，不分动机和政策的人

m***s
发帖数: 1094

不要跟TA费劲了，TA的帖子我已经一概不看不回了

【在 N********n 的大作中提到】

:
: You are not WILLING to discuss debt issue b/c you don't want the world to
: notice you are stealing grand kids' money, which would smash your "we
: have good hearts" liberal fraud into pieces.

m*********a
发帖数: 3299

This is another topic and I have no trust for so called 50Trillion hole for
the welfare program. The cost of which can always be adjusted. The question
is whether we should maintain a minimum safe net, the cost of which can be
afforded by a society. I do not mind cutting welfare cost like increasing
the age to 67 to receive the ss benefit as did by Clinton.
Tax rate is reversely related to economic growth in the recent history.
Clinton increased tax for the wealth, and we have a booooom and fant

【在 N********n 的大作中提到】

:
: You are not WILLING to discuss debt issue b/c you don't want the world to
: notice you are stealing grand kids' money, which would smash your "we
: have good hearts" liberal fraud into pieces.

N********n
发帖数: 8363

Here comes the revisionist's history again. That "booooom" was the sound
of NASDAQ exploding in Mar, 2000 while Clinton was in charge. It crashed
from 5000 down to 2400 in 2000, and yet you still think it's fantastic.
How could a "fantastic" NASDAQ market crash from its 5100-pt top in 2000
all the way down to 1200 in 2002? It was a bubble, just like Bush's real
estate bubble.

【在 m*********a 的大作中提到】

: This is another topic and I have no trust for so called 50Trillion hole for
: the welfare program. The cost of which can always be adjusted. The question
: is whether we should maintain a minimum safe net, the cost of which can be
: afforded by a society. I do not mind cutting welfare cost like increasing
: the age to 67 to receive the ss benefit as did by Clinton.
: Tax rate is reversely related to economic growth in the recent history.
: Clinton increased tax for the wealth, and we have a booooom and fant

q*c
发帖数: 9453

这其实也说明了一个关键问题 - 蠢人太多。所以嘴将能够流行。
这也说明了第二点...既然存在这么多的蠢人坏人，也许作为人类
一个种族，也就只配被反复的 screw up :(

肯定

【在 A*******s 的大作中提到】

: 只要站在道德制高点上的政客
: 是否就能捞到选票？
: 还是老毛说得好，他更乐意和美国右派打交道
: 要是整天把人权自由福利挂嘴边的左棍们能把国家治理好
: 共产主义早就统一全球了

q*c
发帖数: 9453

what the heck....太搞了。
超赞你们两的这个话题，深刻的比喻啊....LOL

决。
一定
用昂
自己

【在 f*******l 的大作中提到】

w*******y
发帖数: 582

if you are such a bigot, why come to start a topic?
are you such a cheap thing?

【在 v******e 的大作中提到】

: u have a problem understanding ppl's argument.
: go and enjoy yourself.

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s*****9
发帖数: 303

LZ被TG教傻了, 只会喊口号, 给人扣帽子.
争不过别人, 就耍赖.

【在 w*******y 的大作中提到】

: if you are such a bigot, why come to start a topic?
: are you such a cheap thing?

v******e
发帖数: 264

可笑
对于那些我阐明了sex和marriage不是一回事他们还继续拿来当例子的人，
这种对话已经不能称为争论了
你有不同意见就讲，不要给人扣“扣帽子”的帽子

【在 s*****9 的大作中提到】

: LZ被TG教傻了, 只会喊口号, 给人扣帽子.
: 争不过别人, 就耍赖.

w***s
发帖数: 4394

如果是医疗是基本人权。那么是不是所有得了艾滋病的人，都可以要求像打篮球的约翰
逊一样，花高价进无菌室，所有的东西都严格消毒，每年花好几个亿来维持生命呢？如
果每个人都可以这样，那么更多的滥交的人，可以再也不用怕艾滋病了，其他性病更不
用说了，大家随便来好了，反正国家养。这样国家能维持吗？

【在 v******e 的大作中提到】

w***s
发帖数: 4394

为什么有的人看不起病？如果是儿童，老人，残障者，这些现在已经cover了，另外还
有一些年轻力壮的，就是不干活的人，你要怎么保障这些人吃好穿好看病好住房好吗？
如果每个人不用劳动都可以得到所有想要的，那么谁还去劳动？

【在 v******e 的大作中提到】

: 可笑
: 对于那些我阐明了sex和marriage不是一回事他们还继续拿来当例子的人，
: 这种对话已经不能称为争论了
: 你有不同意见就讲，不要给人扣“扣帽子”的帽子

m***s
发帖数: 1094

no worry, that's where the death panel comes in

【在 w***s 的大作中提到】

: 如果是医疗是基本人权。那么是不是所有得了艾滋病的人，都可以要求像打篮球的约翰
: 逊一样，花高价进无菌室，所有的东西都严格消毒，每年花好几个亿来维持生命呢？如
: 果每个人都可以这样，那么更多的滥交的人，可以再也不用怕艾滋病了，其他性病更不
: 用说了，大家随便来好了，反正国家养。这样国家能维持吗？

D****V
发帖数: 93

sex 肯定是最基本的人权。人和任何其他生物要能生存下去，最基本的两个需求是食色
，即生存权和繁衍权，甚至繁衍权更重要，因为一旦繁衍后代后，你的生存权的重要性
大幅下降。医疗完全不是必须的，最多依附于生存权，但太多的东西依附于生存权。任
何“可能“威胁到生命的都是。同理，任何“可能“威胁到繁衍的都是

【在 v******e 的大作中提到】

f*******l
发帖数: 8811

苍天啊. 人权哪里去了?
你们还讲不讲人权了?

【在 m***s 的大作中提到】

: no worry, that's where the death panel comes in

v******e
发帖数: 264

繁衍比生存要复杂得多，也要高级得多
前者比后者牵涉到的选择要多得多
因为繁衍不是一个个人行为，是需要两个对等双方各方面和意向都匹配的。
这方面的底线是社会或者政府没有能力控制的。
在繁衍方面，社会唯一能做的就是保证儿童的抚养和教育的底线。

【在 D****V 的大作中提到】

: sex 肯定是最基本的人权。人和任何其他生物要能生存下去，最基本的两个需求是食色
: ，即生存权和繁衍权，甚至繁衍权更重要，因为一旦繁衍后代后，你的生存权的重要性
: 大幅下降。医疗完全不是必须的，最多依附于生存权，但太多的东西依附于生存权。任
: 何“可能“威胁到生命的都是。同理，任何“可能“威胁到繁衍的都是

B**W
发帖数: 2273

It is little bit hard for "animals" to understand this.

【在 v******e 的大作中提到】

: 繁衍比生存要复杂得多，也要高级得多
: 前者比后者牵涉到的选择要多得多
: 因为繁衍不是一个个人行为，是需要两个对等双方各方面和意向都匹配的。
: 这方面的底线是社会或者政府没有能力控制的。
: 在繁衍方面，社会唯一能做的就是保证儿童的抚养和教育的底线。

q*c
发帖数: 9453

生命显然是有价的 -- 比如你的汽车就不可能为了完全保证
撞车的时候不死人而提高成本。
你说汽车公司每辆车话 1000 万美元，能不能保证100 mile
时速下撞车不死人？当然能。但是为啥汽车公司为了
每辆车1000 万美元就每年害死几千几万的人捏？
生命不是无价的嘛？咋被几百万美元就买了啊？
而且这些生命无价的卫士们，时刻坐在自己小命被几百万
美元就卖了的汽车里面，一点点都不抱怨啊，怪哉。
哈哈哈。

【在 w***s 的大作中提到】

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进入USANews版参与讨论

g*****j
发帖数: 1211

You certainly don't have any idea of human rights. What you have
described is the right that any animal should have.
If you only care about survival, what about freedom of speech, ownership
of personal property, privacy, education etc ...

【在 D****V 的大作中提到】

t*****0
发帖数: 156

不知道你从那里得来的儿童，老人，残障者，已经cover了？现在的制度是如果小时
后你得了某慢性病，那么在你这一辈子此病都会被列为pre-existing，你的保险会据保
，老人只
有到65或67岁以上才能领medicare，如果你在此前不幸生重病，那么你就面临倾家荡产
，这
些人即不是懒人也不是恶人，只不过有不幸的经历，我们中的任何人和任何人的孩
子都可能遇到此类的不幸。如果这样的人都没有保障，我看才是“那么谁还去劳动？”

那些不干活的懒汉现在的制度已经COVER，不COVER的是努力的干活却挣不了那么多钱的
。难道你认为如果当不成金融骗子，大家不如都当赖人不干活?

【在 w***s 的大作中提到】

: 为什么有的人看不起病？如果是儿童，老人，残障者，这些现在已经cover了，另外还
: 有一些年轻力壮的，就是不干活的人，你要怎么保障这些人吃好穿好看病好住房好吗？
: 如果每个人不用劳动都可以得到所有想要的，那么谁还去劳动？

g*****j
发帖数: 1211

Why you keep saying life has a price? How much should it be? If I am
willing to pay that price, can I buy your life?
Life is certainly priceless. That doesn't mean everyone should spend
endless amount of money to extend life. Medical treatment is a medical
decision, that will balance efficacy and cost. The limit of treatment
in most situation is efficacy. In other words some people will spend
more money than other people, simply because someone need treatment more
than other people. It is

【在 q*c 的大作中提到】

: 生命显然是有价的 -- 比如你的汽车就不可能为了完全保证
: 撞车的时候不死人而提高成本。
: 你说汽车公司每辆车话 1000 万美元，能不能保证100 mile
: 时速下撞车不死人？当然能。但是为啥汽车公司为了
: 每辆车1000 万美元就每年害死几千几万的人捏？
: 生命不是无价的嘛？咋被几百万美元就买了啊？
: 而且这些生命无价的卫士们，时刻坐在自己小命被几百万
: 美元就卖了的汽车里面，一点点都不抱怨啊，怪哉。
: 哈哈哈。

B**W
发帖数: 2273

That is just a probability. As long as we reduce that probability to a very low level, it is fine. A 10 million car does lower the probability but still cannot guarantee the safety of drivers and passengers.
But it is a different story for things with certainty. Will you give up your life for 10 million usd? Will you give up your parents' lives for 20 million usd? People would not spend 10 millions for one if the chance of saving his life is very low. But if we are sure that 10 millions can save

【在 q*c 的大作中提到】

v******e
发帖数: 264

因为animal找partner没那么多事儿，又得"年纪不能太大也不能太小", 还要"长相过得
去"
所以有些人说自己的sex right没有得到保障，那真是禽兽也不如了

【在 B**W 的大作中提到】

: It is little bit hard for "animals" to understand this.

q*c
发帖数: 9453

又来了，又来了。
我们说话是有 context 的，那就是在挽救生命的时候社会做的努力程度上，
生命是有价的。
你那个叫“犯罪”，和我们谈论的 context 不一样。
不成熟的人的典型标志之一就是，语言绝对话，不看当前语境，
进行随意转换上下文而满足自己的主管认定，嘿嘿。

【在 g*****j 的大作中提到】

: Why you keep saying life has a price? How much should it be? If I am
: willing to pay that price, can I buy your life?
: Life is certainly priceless. That doesn't mean everyone should spend
: endless amount of money to extend life. Medical treatment is a medical
: decision, that will balance efficacy and cost. The limit of treatment
: in most situation is efficacy. In other words some people will spend
: more money than other people, simply because someone need treatment more
: than other people. It is

D****V
发帖数: 93

I am talking about the most basic human right. if any animal should have,
then human should also have, right? but LZ said the sex is not human right.
who can give the exact definition of "human right"? for my understand, human
right is the right which you have originally, which should not effects
others' right, and others should not take take it away from you. Human right
is not to request other to give some benefit to you. LZ totally does not
know what human right is, just use the politic popu

【在 g*****j 的大作中提到】

: You certainly don't have any idea of human rights. What you have
: described is the right that any animal should have.
: If you only care about survival, what about freedom of speech, ownership
: of personal property, privacy, education etc ...

a**x
发帖数: 255

house bubble不是Bush的错。一切是臭名昭著的卡特的community reinvestment act，
然后小克发扬光大。Bush曾想立法regulate，结果bentley frank阻扰未果。
教主还曾起诉mortgage给low/medium income的不够多。
说到底都是左派干的，右派没阻止而已。

q*c
发帖数: 9453

看来我们对 “生命无价”的定义不同。不过你没看这个主题的上下文？
这里就是有人要根据 “生命无价” 这个公理，来论述超高医疗服务费用的合理性，
因为“生命无价” 嘛。
我们自然的理解就是，无价，就是说花大钱也是值得的. 无价这里的意思，
这里就是，就该花很多很多的钱，多到整个社会都产生了难以忍受的负担的地步，也
是应该的 (就像老美现在这样？) 因为人们总是追求利益最大化，舍弃大量的财富，
换取无价的东西，显然是赚了。
你那叫犯罪，讨论的完全和我们现在的话题无关。世界是负责的，语言是有限的，
因此说话的时候不能随便改变上下文 -- 完全一样的汉语或者英文，仅仅因为上下文
改变，就能成为完全不同的东西。
你就是自相矛盾啊，面对无价的东西，你竟然还要进行取舍？根本不该这样，因为
无价的东西，就应该无限的投入，投入任何有限的资源换取无价的东西都是大赚了！
。。。。你自己的话是自相矛盾，既然要取舍，显然取舍的双方面（一面是人命，
一面是花费）是可以比较的，否则你取舍个啥？？
我老父老母的命，显然也是有价的 - 如果他们能享受到江泽民的待遇，肯定能多活

【在 B**W 的大作中提到】

: That is just a probability. As long as we reduce that probability to a very low level, it is fine. A 10 million car does lower the probability but still cannot guarantee the safety of drivers and passengers.
: But it is a different story for things with certainty. Will you give up your life for 10 million usd? Will you give up your parents' lives for 20 million usd? People would not spend 10 millions for one if the chance of saving his life is very low. But if we are sure that 10 millions can save

a**x
发帖数: 255

认为health是right真是脑残。终生残疾者要求恢复正常，aids要求治愈，你怎么达到
？！

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进入USANews版参与讨论

B**W
发帖数: 2273

Just as I said, it is no point to spend 10 million dollars on someone if the chance of saving his life is very low. And such judgment will change with the advancement of technology and the wealth of the society. As to your concern about the cost, I believe the society will make adjustment.
All in all, just treat others in the way you want to be treated. If someday, hypothetically, you lost your fortune, how much would you like the society to spend in order to save your parents' life? Why should

【在 q*c 的大作中提到】

: 看来我们对 “生命无价”的定义不同。不过你没看这个主题的上下文？
: 这里就是有人要根据 “生命无价” 这个公理，来论述超高医疗服务费用的合理性，
: 因为“生命无价” 嘛。
: 我们自然的理解就是，无价，就是说花大钱也是值得的. 无价这里的意思，
: 这里就是，就该花很多很多的钱，多到整个社会都产生了难以忍受的负担的地步，也
: 是应该的 (就像老美现在这样？) 因为人们总是追求利益最大化，舍弃大量的财富，
: 换取无价的东西，显然是赚了。
: 你那叫犯罪，讨论的完全和我们现在的话题无关。世界是负责的，语言是有限的，
: 因此说话的时候不能随便改变上下文 -- 完全一样的汉语或者英文，仅仅因为上下文
: 改变，就能成为完全不同的东西。

t*****0
发帖数: 156

right是指有right去医院治病，不是终生残疾者要求恢复正常，aids要求治愈。
你们到底是闲的没事在这胡搅蛮缠还是真的在讨论问题？？？？

【在 a**x 的大作中提到】

: 认为health是right真是脑残。终生残疾者要求恢复正常，aids要求治愈，你怎么达到
: ？！

s*********g
发帖数: 182

几年前轰动一时的Terri Schiavo事件听说过吧？女的成植物人很多年了，她父母坚持
要求继续治疗，每年大把大把的花钱

【在 t*****0 的大作中提到】

: right是指有right去医院治病，不是终生残疾者要求恢复正常，aids要求治愈。
: 你们到底是闲的没事在这胡搅蛮缠还是真的在讨论问题？？？？

b***y
发帖数: 14281

问题是这个底线本来就有啊，medicaid and medicare就是确保真正买不起
医宝的人都能得到保障，即使没有医改，也没有说美国就让人横死街头了。
至于条件允许但是舍不得花前买医保那就完全是另一回事。医改涉及的并非
最基本的保障问题，你到底看懂没看懂法案的内容？

【在 v******e 的大作中提到】

B**W
发帖数: 2273

That's a good example of how the society automatically makes adjustment on
this. Why no news/debates on surgeries that have saved children or elderly
people?

【在 s*********g 的大作中提到】

: 几年前轰动一时的Terri Schiavo事件听说过吧？女的成植物人很多年了，她父母坚持
: 要求继续治疗，每年大把大把的花钱

q*c
发帖数: 9453

这种讨论到个人的主观看法就毫无意义 - 我都说很多次了，比如你的生命对我来说就
一文不值，反之亦然 - 所以你问我想要多少钱？无数。把你和你父母全部饿死，
只要能治疗我父母，我觉得很值得。
但是这样有什么意义呢？我们讨论的就是，生命在抢救的时候，社会认为是有价的
，我只要求大家的价码一样就行了。
你下面自己矛盾的不行 -- 为啥小概率就不花 10M 抢救生命捏？
无价 * 0.000000000000000001 = 无价》》 10M.
为啥 80% 的概率就值得花 10M 抢救， 0.01% 就不值得呢? 你这不是正好帮助我论述
了生命是有价的嘛？哈哈。假设生命在抢救的时候社会认为最多值 X.
X * 0.8 > 10M
X * 0.0000000000000000001 < 10M
1000000000000000000 M > X > 13M
也就是社会认为你这条小命值 13M 和一个大价钱之间的某个值嘛。你看看胡锦涛，他
显然就比你值钱多，哪怕是万分之一的希望， 100M 花了就要花。
不过显然的，就连他的命也不是无价的。否则共产党的高层就集体造反

【在 B**W 的大作中提到】

: Just as I said, it is no point to spend 10 million dollars on someone if the chance of saving his life is very low. And such judgment will change with the advancement of technology and the wealth of the society. As to your concern about the cost, I believe the society will make adjustment.
: All in all, just treat others in the way you want to be treated. If someday, hypothetically, you lost your fortune, how much would you like the society to spend in order to save your parents' life? Why should

g*****j
发帖数: 1211

I saw your article and I didn't agree with you.
Our difference lies in the fact that I believe even a coal miner
deserves the same medical treatment as you and me if he present to the
medical office. This is exact the policy in my hospital and no physician
asks whether the patient has insurance or not. We treat them the same
way. I know this is very different from the situation in China, where
people have to show ability to pay before receiving any treatment, and
yet you thought that is a gre

【在 q*c 的大作中提到】

s*******t
发帖数: 148

Talking about basic human rights - is having emough food a basic right? Is
having a place to stay a basic right? Is having a bed a basic right? Is
having clothes on your body a basic right? Specifically in the US, is having
a car as transportation tool a basic right? Does the government also need
to take care of all these? If the government takes care of all these "basic
human rights" for everyone, how many people still have the motivation to
work hard or even just go to work? Socialism kills co

【在 v******e 的大作中提到】

B**W
发帖数: 2273

Man. Life is not numbers.
If you say other people's life is meaningless to you, then I see no
necessity to continue this discussion.

【在 q*c 的大作中提到】

: 这种讨论到个人的主观看法就毫无意义 - 我都说很多次了，比如你的生命对我来说就
: 一文不值，反之亦然 - 所以你问我想要多少钱？无数。把你和你父母全部饿死，
: 只要能治疗我父母，我觉得很值得。
: 但是这样有什么意义呢？我们讨论的就是，生命在抢救的时候，社会认为是有价的
: ，我只要求大家的价码一样就行了。
: 你下面自己矛盾的不行 -- 为啥小概率就不花 10M 抢救生命捏？
: 无价 * 0.000000000000000001 = 无价》》 10M.
: 为啥 80% 的概率就值得花 10M 抢救， 0.01% 就不值得呢? 你这不是正好帮助我论述
: 了生命是有价的嘛？哈哈。假设生命在抢救的时候社会认为最多值 X.
: X * 0.8 > 10M

B**W
发帖数: 2273

This is exactly what those people should learn about.
Good to see some doctors (I assume you are) can have such broad love for
human beings.

【在 g*****j 的大作中提到】

: I saw your article and I didn't agree with you.
: Our difference lies in the fact that I believe even a coal miner
: deserves the same medical treatment as you and me if he present to the
: medical office. This is exact the policy in my hospital and no physician
: asks whether the patient has insurance or not. We treat them the same
: way. I know this is very different from the situation in China, where
: people have to show ability to pay before receiving any treatment, and
: yet you thought that is a gre

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● 黄西是个很好用的石蕊测试	● This is great!
进入USANews版参与讨论

s*******t
发帖数: 148

Human being, as animals, all like free things and they will vote for those
people who promise to provide them free things or things that they can get
without hard working.but is that good for the society or the country in the
long run? Being popular doesn't mean it is right. Being right, in many case,
is not popular. This is also the weakest link of the current election
system.

WWII
but

【在 B**W 的大作中提到】

B**W
发帖数: 2273

Being right, in many cases, is not popular
Good remarks. Hehe, you should send this to the current US president.

the
case,

【在 s*******t 的大作中提到】

: Human being, as animals, all like free things and they will vote for those
: people who promise to provide them free things or things that they can get
: without hard working.but is that good for the society or the country in the
: long run? Being popular doesn't mean it is right. Being right, in many case,
: is not popular. This is also the weakest link of the current election
: system.
:
: WWII
: but

s*******t
发帖数: 148

Do you also think that a person who is capable of working but never had a
job or never wanted to have a job also should be offered medical insurance
under the help of the government? It is great that this bill helps seniors,
kids and other populations that need and deserve help. But to provide
medical insurance to those parasite,hehe, that's difficult to swallow.This
is almost socialism.The key about socialism is that it sounds good but it
doesn't work in the long run.

【在 g*****j 的大作中提到】

s*********g
发帖数: 182

that's also a good example of how the system can be so easily abused for
years before any problem gets resolved

elderly

【在 B**W 的大作中提到】

: That's a good example of how the society automatically makes adjustment on
: this. Why no news/debates on surgeries that have saved children or elderly
: people?

g*******r
发帖数: 2

奥巴马的“大跃进”使得相当加拿大总人口的美国人一下子都有了医保。医院还是原来
的医院，医生和护士的人数也不可能有太多的变化。这些新有保险的人，由于长期缺少
医疗照顾，一定会有不少医疗问题。美国的私人医院不知能消化多少这些病人，大部分
会涌到照顾穷人的社区医院(county hospital)，人满为患的社区医院情况会更加恶化
，穷人看病会更加困难。奥巴马的医改是在照顾穷人吗？

e******s
发帖数: 309

问题还在先解决cost还是access的问题上。
现在有些人没有access，问题不是公平，是cost太高。最穷的人大多是有保障的Medicaid，uninsured的大多是年轻体状很少生病的人。
美国的医疗浪费严重，老头老太平常孤独了，没事喜欢到候诊室里呆着，可以有医生护士的attention，可以和其他老头老太聊天，医生也乐得挣这个钱，最后纳税人埋单Medicare破产。

【在 v******e 的大作中提到】

w***s
发帖数: 4394

aids可以花大价钱一直拖着不死，一直到自己产生抗体，只要你肯出钱，现在是国家出
钱，也就是别人得aids，你买单。

【在 t*****0 的大作中提到】

: right是指有right去医院治病，不是终生残疾者要求恢复正常，aids要求治愈。
: 你们到底是闲的没事在这胡搅蛮缠还是真的在讨论问题？？？？

a******u
发帖数: 238

这个医改和大跃进差的太远了。
医改的精髓是让每个人有保险，如果不想买也不行，必须买。防止了一些人不想买，到
了真
病了，就到医院一躺，让那些买了保险的给他买单。
基本医疗是基本人权，考虑到现在社会技术发展。
美国没有基本医疗简直是美国的耻辱。连很多中等发达国家都有了。
美国医疗的问题是，医疗费用太高，医生是垄断经营，保险公司则是欺诈，为何有了
pre-
exist condition就不买保险。我身体好时，有工作，交了保险钱，等身体差了，有病
了，
反而保险不能用，这不是欺诈是啥。保险公司钱太好赚，我也去开保险公司，只保健康
人的
险就行了。律师也是狂吃一口，盯着医疗事故。
我相信医改只是开始，医改并不是政府垄断医疗市场，而是代表人民和这些垄断集团谈
判。
虽然政府处理或介入任何事的效率很低，这也是被共和党攻击的地方，但是毕竟是一人
一票
选出来的，相对公平一些。难道你相信私人公司会保护个人的利益？这个远远不是共产主
义！

【在 m***s 的大作中提到】

t*****0
发帖数: 156

good!

【在 a******u 的大作中提到】

: 这个医改和大跃进差的太远了。
: 医改的精髓是让每个人有保险，如果不想买也不行，必须买。防止了一些人不想买，到
: 了真
: 病了，就到医院一躺，让那些买了保险的给他买单。
: 基本医疗是基本人权，考虑到现在社会技术发展。
: 美国没有基本医疗简直是美国的耻辱。连很多中等发达国家都有了。
: 美国医疗的问题是，医疗费用太高，医生是垄断经营，保险公司则是欺诈，为何有了
: pre-
: exist condition就不买保险。我身体好时，有工作，交了保险钱，等身体差了，有病
: 了，

v******e
发帖数: 264

100

hey, i never said sex is not human right.
what i wanted to argue with some id is that: a government has no obligation
to provide you with a sex
partner, and the government is not violating your human right by not doing
so.

human
right
as

【在 D****V 的大作中提到】

: I am talking about the most basic human right. if any animal should have,
: then human should also have, right? but LZ said the sex is not human right.
: who can give the exact definition of "human right"? for my understand, human
: right is the right which you have originally, which should not effects
: others' right, and others should not take take it away from you. Human right
: is not to request other to give some benefit to you. LZ totally does not
: know what human right is, just use the politic popu

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v******e
发帖数: 264

101

hey, who said ``health'' itself is a right?

【在 a**x 的大作中提到】

: 认为health是right真是脑残。终生残疾者要求恢复正常，aids要求治愈，你怎么达到
: ？！

y****t
发帖数: 10233

102

这个谁说了算?
你说了算?

obligation

【在 v******e 的大作中提到】

: hey, i never said sex is not human right.
: what i wanted to argue with some id is that: a government has no obligation
: to provide you with a sex
: partner, and the government is not violating your human right by not doing
: so.
:
: human
: right
: as

v******e
发帖数: 264

103

真了不起。你让我改变了我的观点。
healthcare当然不应当成为人权，比如你这种人就该横尸街头。

【在 f*******l 的大作中提到】

: 苍天啊. 人权哪里去了?
: 你们还讲不讲人权了?

j******t
发帖数: 65

104

Things that other people have to provide you can NEVER be a human right.
You have a right to life, that means you have a right to not be killed.
Not that you have a right to other people's food to keep you full.
You have a right to liberty, meaning you have a right to not be
enslaved, not that people have to provide you with the means to do
whatever you want.
And you have a right to property, meaning that once you use your liberty
to perform some labor, you have full control of the fruits of tha

【在 v******e 的大作中提到】

v******e
发帖数: 264

105

就算我的帖子开错了，但也算歪打正着
你看到没有，楼下好些人连这个底线都想否认掉，
说没有钱的人就不该去救
实在令人感到震撼

【在 b***y 的大作中提到】

: 问题是这个底线本来就有啊，medicaid and medicare就是确保真正买不起
: 医宝的人都能得到保障，即使没有医改，也没有说美国就让人横死街头了。
: 至于条件允许但是舍不得花前买医保那就完全是另一回事。医改涉及的并非
: 最基本的保障问题，你到底看懂没看懂法案的内容？

a**t
发帖数: 3833

106

本来就有鬼，you don't know what medicaid and medicare are

【在 b***y 的大作中提到】

f*******g
发帖数: 79

107

就美国而言，我认为人权是加入合众国后，个人仍然保留的权利。一部分在人权法案
中已列出，还有很多没在宪法中提到的权利，也被默认为保留权利。而现在的法案要
求每个公民去购买保险，其实是对人权（选择我想要的商品及服务的自由)的侵犯. 记
得有句话叫“己所不欲，勿施与人”，后半句叫“己所欲，也勿施与人”。

w***s
发帖数: 4394

108

这医改就是大跃进，大跃进本来是想要人人吃的上饭，结果导致几千万本来有饭吃的人吃不上饭。这个医改本来是要让人人看的起病，结果导致上千万的本来可以看上病的看不成病，看着吧。
美国独立的时候，全世界都有国王或皇帝，很多中等发达国家也是国王或皇帝或大公，美国却只有总统，我不觉得这个有什么可耻的。

【在 a******u 的大作中提到】

q*c
发帖数: 9453

109

我认为每个人都有得到一定程度基本医疗的权利 - 你看我们这点是完全一样的
我认为每个人根据自己的贡献的不同有得到不同优等医疗的权利 - 多劳多得，包括健康
这点我们也相同。
我认为每个人在被抢救的时候要有上限，免得导致社会破产而更多的生命损害。
这点好像我们不同哦，其实就这点不同。
最后我认为要大量培养不同层次的医生，让医生的失业率到达同等训练学历的其他
行业的水平，有效的降低医疗黑箱高额的现状。
你看看我的观点都是完全为人民服务而又务实的很。
我们的区别？我认为现在这个基本医疗的标准设的太高！导致培养医生困难，
导致医疗成本高昂，导致社会不堪重负，而且由于医疗的强制性，导致医疗抢夺
其他方面的资源，结果造成社会总体健康水平的下降 - 我前面提到过，
社会压力增大，导致生活工作压力都增加，也会负面影响到人的健康，
统计上，造成的负面结果未必比那点医疗费用产生的正面抢救效果小。
鉴于资本有边际效用递减规律，所以把这些资源投入其他民生建设，
能更大的提高总体健康度。
我希望社会总体健康度增加 -- 哪怕是牺牲少数人的性命（否则更多人的性命就
会受威胁，

【在 g*****j 的大作中提到】

q*c
发帖数: 9453

110

那是，自己一旦发现自己自相矛盾的时候，就不能讨论了。
人都是自私的，设计系统的时候要是不考虑这一点，
设计出来的都是神一样的优美系统，实现的时候就是地狱。
具体参见当年的大锅饭和几千万人饿死。
设计系统的时候把人都当坏蛋，最后反而在约束下好人大把。比如老美的分权体系。
设计的时候把人都当高尚的人，就像“共产党员是特殊材料制作的”，
结果就连最基本的道德都没有了, 就像中国的“自我纠正”政体，哈哈。
这个世界就是怪啊。

说就
，
价的
论述

【在 B**W 的大作中提到】

: Man. Life is not numbers.
: If you say other people's life is meaningless to you, then I see no
: necessity to continue this discussion.

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q*c
发帖数: 9453

111

Your Life to you is not number, for sure
your life to anyone else in the world, to the government, is real number,
this sound cruel, but truth is infinitely better than illusion, no matter
how bad truth looks and fancy illusion claims.
If we face truth, we may find a better solution.
if we based on illusion, we end up bad for sure.

说就
，
价的
论述

【在 B**W 的大作中提到】

: Man. Life is not numbers.
: If you say other people's life is meaningless to you, then I see no
: necessity to continue this discussion.

q*c
发帖数: 9453

112

这些同修们都是毫无例外的好人，这点是毫无疑问的。
问题就是，这个世界上坏人实在是大多数 - 其实几乎人人都是坏人，
所以你设计系统的时候就必须把人当坏人来对付，然后给好人留一扇窄门。
这样国家才有希望，看看中国把人当好人，指望自觉性的时候是啥情况，
现在把人当畜生，人吃人，经济又是咋大发展的。当然现在这个状态不好，
那是一定的，但是现在这个状态，符合现在的经济发展水平，和
人类文明发展水平，因此能发展。发展到一定水平，整体实力增强，
于是就可以适当提高医疗和社会保障水准，然后继续这个可持续的循环。
并非是“好”的东西就能当前就持续实现的， fittest survive.

,

【在 s*******t 的大作中提到】

: Do you also think that a person who is capable of working but never had a
: job or never wanted to have a job also should be offered medical insurance
: under the help of the government? It is great that this bill helps seniors,
: kids and other populations that need and deserve help. But to provide
: medical insurance to those parasite,hehe, that's difficult to swallow.This
: is almost socialism.The key about socialism is that it sounds good but it
: doesn't work in the long run.

q*c
发帖数: 9453

113

haha, 只要取消 it 的性交权就足够惩罚了吧，哈哈哈。LOL.

【在 v******e 的大作中提到】

: 真了不起。你让我改变了我的观点。
: healthcare当然不应当成为人权，比如你这种人就该横尸街头。

d****z
发帖数: 9503

114

不劳而获啥时候成基本人权了？
独立宣言里面说的 We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are
created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain
unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of
Happiness.
无论是life，liberty还是pursuit of happiness都是你与生俱来的，不是别人提供的
。当你有这些权利的时候，任何其他人的权利都不受影响。
而不劳而获则不然。你可以不劳动就有吃有喝有住房有医保。但是无论是吃是喝是住房
还是医保，都不是你与生俱来的。是需要别人的劳动提供的。当你说你有这些right，
那么必然就要有人有obligation。
不劳而获是不是基本人权？你可以说是，这完全可以是你的道德，你的ideaology。但
是你一定要认识到，只要不劳而获是某些人的基本人权，那么劳而不获就是另外一些人
的基

【在 v******e 的大作中提到】

t*b
发帖数: 850

115

举例说明那个穷人在美国生病没法看医生？
没有保险并不等于不能看病，而且其中一部分人是不想买保险而不是买不起。
你可以认为health care是基本人权，但是halth care is not equal to health
insurance. 政府大包大揽给穷人买保险，那些人当然愿意，免费的谁不愿意。问题是
这些钱从哪来？穷人们已经有了基本的health care保障，生病去医院，看完病不掏钱
，这就是穷人目前的真实写照。政府已经为他们提供了你所说的这个基本人权保障。还
在贪得无厌的想得到免费医疗保险，然后呢？天天没事，不管大病小病，往医院跑，反
正不是自己花钱。有了这个，那些稍微有钱得人也会碰破头皮往分一杯这个免费的午餐。
最可笑的是你说的奥巴马的motivation. 他的motivation是什莫？是1）这个法案通过
一下子为民主党拉来3000多万的选票，这些穷人平时谁会在乎投票？除了去年选奥巴马
2）为黑兄弟谋福利。这就是他的motivation.民主党花钱，然后共和党给他们擦屁股
，而且共和党还得背黑锅。民主党就一条，花钱取悦投票人。克林顿就是一个明显的例
子。落了好名

b**u
发帖数: 1206

116

介个要赞一下。
NC的LZ就是没把这搞清楚，还自己觉得高人一等。

【在 d****z 的大作中提到】

: 不劳而获啥时候成基本人权了？
: 独立宣言里面说的 We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are
: created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain
: unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of
: Happiness.
: 无论是life，liberty还是pursuit of happiness都是你与生俱来的，不是别人提供的
: 。当你有这些权利的时候，任何其他人的权利都不受影响。
: 而不劳而获则不然。你可以不劳动就有吃有喝有住房有医保。但是无论是吃是喝是住房
: 还是医保，都不是你与生俱来的。是需要别人的劳动提供的。当你说你有这些right，
: 那么必然就要有人有obligation。

p***r
发帖数: 195

117

后塞音这样搞几年以后，美国的所谓“very very low”税收就赶上加拿大了

when
So
not

【在 m*********a 的大作中提到】

p***i
发帖数: 2119

118

我買了一輛奔馳，在我眼裡，是生活水準的提高，在別人的眼裡是“花錢而已。”
同樣，醫療保險，在老百姓眼裡，是生活水準的提高，在某些人的眼裡是“不勞而獲。”
無他，看問題的角度不一樣。

【在 d****z 的大作中提到】

j******t
发帖数: 65

119

但这是想通过不劳而获来提高生活水准。这怎么能是人权呢

。”

【在 p***i 的大作中提到】

: 我買了一輛奔馳，在我眼裡，是生活水準的提高，在別人的眼裡是“花錢而已。”
: 同樣，醫療保險，在老百姓眼裡，是生活水準的提高，在某些人的眼裡是“不勞而獲。”
: 無他，看問題的角度不一樣。

p***i
发帖数: 2119

120

你沒看懂我的比喻。
很多人權是不勞而獲的，比如生命財產的安全和接受基本教育的權利。
健康保險是不勞而獲，但不代表它就不是基本人權。

【在 j******t 的大作中提到】

: 但这是想通过不劳而获来提高生活水准。这怎么能是人权呢
:
: 。”

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B**W
发帖数: 2273

121

See. This is our difference. My point is, to me, your life is more than
numbers. I don't mind paying tax to save your life. I know there are many
people like you who want to be treated like meaningless numbers in other
people's eyes. But that is not the case for many others.
When we say life is priceless, we are not saying we should exhaust our
resources to save one particular life. We are saying we must try our best to
value such a life while keeping other people's lives in mind. You imply
that

【在 q*c 的大作中提到】

: Your Life to you is not number, for sure
: your life to anyone else in the world, to the government, is real number,
: this sound cruel, but truth is infinitely better than illusion, no matter
: how bad truth looks and fancy illusion claims.
: If we face truth, we may find a better solution.
: if we based on illusion, we end up bad for sure.
:
: 说就
: ，
: 价的

d****z
发帖数: 9503

122

如果你花自己的钱买了医保，当然不是不劳而获。如果你花别人的钱买医保，这个就是
不劳而获。这个和看问题的角度有什么关系。

。”

【在 p***i 的大作中提到】

d****z
发帖数: 9503

123

那劳而不获就是基本义务喽？
你举的两个例子很好。生命权是基本人权。那是说别人不可以杀了你。但是如果你要求
有保镖来保护你的生命，这个就不是基本人权了。你说那警察呢？你有被警察保护的权
利，那你就有缴税养警察的义务。这个权利和义务是直接相连的。同样，小孩有受基本
教育的权利，那么小孩父母就要送小孩去学校的义务。而且儿童的各项权利义务和成年
人是不同的。
作为一个成年人既不缴税又要享受医保，这个就是只有权利没有义务，这样的权利绝对
不是基本人权，而是privilege。

【在 p***i 的大作中提到】

: 你沒看懂我的比喻。
: 很多人權是不勞而獲的，比如生命財產的安全和接受基本教育的權利。
: 健康保險是不勞而獲，但不代表它就不是基本人權。

D******e
发帖数: 1085

124

Health care is NOT born right of a person.
But humans should help out their weakest as the society goes into an
advanced stage. That is NOW.
In US, the rich has exploited the poor for too long. We need to tax the
rich and provide everybody the basic health care.
Go Chairman obama, Go! Tax the rich.
There are multiple benefits of the universal health care as a safety net.
People will have more upwards opportunities. They will not be thrown on the
streets when they lose their job. They can

y****t
发帖数: 10233

125

放屁,这个社会从来都是富人,穷人一起盘剥中产.
不信,你看看你自己税表先,如果你交税的话.
warren buffett的税率是17.7%.你的呢?

the
by

【在 D******e 的大作中提到】

: Health care is NOT born right of a person.
: But humans should help out their weakest as the society goes into an
: advanced stage. That is NOW.
: In US, the rich has exploited the poor for too long. We need to tax the
: rich and provide everybody the basic health care.
: Go Chairman obama, Go! Tax the rich.
: There are multiple benefits of the universal health care as a safety net.
: People will have more upwards opportunities. They will not be thrown on the
: streets when they lose their job. They can

d****z
发帖数: 9503

126

不劳而获的benefit真是多呀。

the
by

【在 D******e 的大作中提到】

d****z
发帖数: 9503

127

所谓从富人收税就是一麻药，打过以后，一些人被割肉的时候就不觉得很痛苦了。就这
么简单。

【在 y****t 的大作中提到】

: 放屁,这个社会从来都是富人,穷人一起盘剥中产.
: 不信,你看看你自己税表先,如果你交税的话.
: warren buffett的税率是17.7%.你的呢?
:
: the
: by

p*****e
发帖数: 7299

128

这种逻辑劈叉的帖子还振振有词地写一大坨。
偷换概念是教奴、左奴的一贯行径。
大家质疑的是所谓UHC成为基本人权的前提。
如果一项所谓基本人权是建立在对其他人的欺压盘剥之上，这就是一个明显的骗局和强
盗逻辑，所谓所有的动物都是平等的，但是猪更平等。
侯赛因搞的就是盘剥勤劳守法中产，豢养懒人罪犯票人，绑架选举而为大利益集团牟利
，做为傀儡的交换就是侯赛因成就黑人总统的虚名。

【在 v******e 的大作中提到】

p***i
发帖数: 2119

129

我要說的是，是不是人權和是不是不勞而獲是沒有關係的。很多基本人權是不勞而獲的。
你說“健康保險是基本人權”的觀點等同於“不勞而獲是基本人權”是偷換概念。

【在 d****z 的大作中提到】

: 如果你花自己的钱买了医保，当然不是不劳而获。如果你花别人的钱买医保，这个就是
: 不劳而获。这个和看问题的角度有什么关系。
:
: 。”

p***i
发帖数: 2119

130

很多人不繳稅，是不是就代表不受警察保護了？受不受警察保護和勞動不勞動是沒有關
係的。這項權利明顯是不勞而獲。
同樣，孩子有沒有受基礎教育的權利和父母有沒有勞動也是沒有關係的。所以孩子受教
育的權利也是不勞而獲。
權利和義務當然是相輔相成的。現在的健保法案也是規定人有買健保的義務。每項權利
都有隨之而來的義務。但是，這和健保是不是基本人權是兩個範疇的東西。

【在 d****z 的大作中提到】

: 那劳而不获就是基本义务喽？
: 你举的两个例子很好。生命权是基本人权。那是说别人不可以杀了你。但是如果你要求
: 有保镖来保护你的生命，这个就不是基本人权了。你说那警察呢？你有被警察保护的权
: 利，那你就有缴税养警察的义务。这个权利和义务是直接相连的。同样，小孩有受基本
: 教育的权利，那么小孩父母就要送小孩去学校的义务。而且儿童的各项权利义务和成年
: 人是不同的。
: 作为一个成年人既不缴税又要享受医保，这个就是只有权利没有义务，这样的权利绝对
: 不是基本人权，而是privilege。

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D******e
发帖数: 1085

131

Now it is time that we tax the rich, right? You are with me, right?
My tax rate is 4% with 6-figure income.
There are a lot of tax benefits geared to middle-class:
401K
$5000 Roth
$5000 dependant flex acct
$5000 medical flex acct
$5000 health savings acct
$4000 education credit
$4000 education write-off.
Mortgage interest up to 1M so that there is limit for the rich.
The poor and middle-class unite and tax the rich, lawyers, doctors, and
bankers, and the like.
Middle-class has been wanting to

【在 y****t 的大作中提到】

: 放屁,这个社会从来都是富人,穷人一起盘剥中产.
: 不信,你看看你自己税表先,如果你交税的话.
: warren buffett的税率是17.7%.你的呢?
:
: the
: by

D******e
发帖数: 1085

132

and there is a limit how much the rich can take.
Middle-class do get breaks from the system.
Besides, there are a lot of tax tricks only the middle-class can use too.
Try to spend time figuring out what they are instead of calling names here.

D******e
发帖数: 1085

133

Besides, there are a lot of tax tricks only the middle-class can use too.
Try to spend time figuring out what they are instead of calling names here.

Y*H
发帖数: 1582

134

the tax payers is already subsidizing the poor as they utilize ER.

【在 v******e 的大作中提到】

d****z
发帖数: 9503

135

只要有一项基本人权是不劳而获的，那劳而不获就必然是某些人的基本义务了。我要说
的就是这个。
很多人天天空谈不劳而获的种种好处，就是不谈劳而不获，好象不劳而获可以独立存在
似的。

的。

【在 p***i 的大作中提到】

: 我要說的是，是不是人權和是不是不勞而獲是沒有關係的。很多基本人權是不勞而獲的。
: 你說“健康保險是基本人權”的觀點等同於“不勞而獲是基本人權”是偷換概念。

d****z
发帖数: 9503

136

只要有一项基本人权是不劳而获的，那么劳而不获就必须是人的基本义务。乌拉，共产
主义实现了。

【在 p***i 的大作中提到】

: 很多人不繳稅，是不是就代表不受警察保護了？受不受警察保護和勞動不勞動是沒有關
: 係的。這項權利明顯是不勞而獲。
: 同樣，孩子有沒有受基礎教育的權利和父母有沒有勞動也是沒有關係的。所以孩子受教
: 育的權利也是不勞而獲。
: 權利和義務當然是相輔相成的。現在的健保法案也是規定人有買健保的義務。每項權利
: 都有隨之而來的義務。但是，這和健保是不是基本人權是兩個範疇的東西。

p***i
发帖数: 2119

137

所以我才說看問題的角度不一樣啊。
我買奔馳車，看到的是爽，你看到的是花錢。
別人看健保看到的是基本人權，你看到的是不勞而獲。

【在 d****z 的大作中提到】

: 只要有一项基本人权是不劳而获的，那么劳而不获就必须是人的基本义务。乌拉，共产
: 主义实现了。

d**********r
发帖数: 28

138

我同意health care是人权。说是基本人权，我不同意。大跃进式的改革，我更不同意
。

y****t
发帖数: 10233

139

你花我的钱买奔驰
当然你看到的是爽,我看到的是花钱.

【在 p***i 的大作中提到】

: 所以我才說看問題的角度不一樣啊。
: 我買奔馳車，看到的是爽，你看到的是花錢。
: 別人看健保看到的是基本人權，你看到的是不勞而獲。

D******e
发帖数: 1085

140

With $8/hr, you cant afford health care. There isnt much left to enjoy
after paying for shitty living conditions. Thats the way a developed
country should treat their fellow human beings. These jobs of janitors,
burger flippers, cashiers, security guards need our humans to do. They are
not slaves.
The reason that the poor go to ERs is because the rich is exploiting them.
We might as well lock them up in chains and make them slaves. If so, who
knows, you might as well become one yourself.

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D******e
发帖数: 1085

141

NOT.

p*****e
发帖数: 7299

142

你不领几个回家养起来先，就完全没有说服力。。。

are

【在 D******e 的大作中提到】

: With $8/hr, you cant afford health care. There isnt much left to enjoy
: after paying for shitty living conditions. Thats the way a developed
: country should treat their fellow human beings. These jobs of janitors,
: burger flippers, cashiers, security guards need our humans to do. They are
: not slaves.
: The reason that the poor go to ERs is because the rich is exploiting them.
: We might as well lock them up in chains and make them slaves. If so, who
: knows, you might as well become one yourself.

l****z
发帖数: 29846

143

lz有点傻啊,我可记得有句话叫不劳动者不得食.
如果医疗什么都是人权,那是不是那些什么活也不干就可以享受医保了.

D******e
发帖数: 1085

144

Look, it costs $16000 to insure a family of four. At $8/hr, they make 16000
/yr. After paying for health insurance, they would not have any left for
food, shelter, transportation. This is called exploitation.

D******e
发帖数: 1085

145

Call it a safety net for our fellow countryman.
Reaganomics has failed miserably.

【在 l****z 的大作中提到】

: lz有点傻啊,我可记得有句话叫不劳动者不得食.
: 如果医疗什么都是人权,那是不是那些什么活也不干就可以享受医保了.

w***s
发帖数: 4394

146

你这个算法不对，有非常便宜的保险，不是每种保险都要花1万6。如果每个人都要开奔
驰宝马，那么钱也不够生活的。

16000

【在 D******e 的大作中提到】

: Look, it costs $16000 to insure a family of four. At $8/hr, they make 16000
: /yr. After paying for health insurance, they would not have any left for
: food, shelter, transportation. This is called exploitation.
:

y****t
发帖数: 10233

147

it does not matter, my question is who decide this line? how to decide this
line?
say your line is $x, why $x+1 is considered rich suddenly, because of 1$
difference?

16000

【在 D******e 的大作中提到】

p***i
发帖数: 2119

148

根據自由市場學派的觀點，這是這些消費者的“自由選擇”，政府不應干涉。

16000

【在 D******e 的大作中提到】

D******e
发帖数: 1085

149

Like military is not free market driven right? We can all set up militia
and compete to see who is the best?
Single payer, like government run health care has a lot of advantage.
The poor cant afford even the cheapest health insurance. They have little
to enjoy. There are always bad eggs to take advantage of the system.
People are scamming billions out of medicare today. We need to look at the
big picture.
And there are people who lose their jobs, who want to switch careers, get
higher ed

D******e
发帖数: 1085

150

Besides, the line is graduated already. People are subsidized gradually
from 28000 to 88000 a year from 0% to 90%. Read the news. At 88000, there
is a $1 line, yes. But the difference is already reduced from 100% down to
10%. Politicians have already figured it out and tried to make it as smooth
as possible.

this

【在 y****t 的大作中提到】

: it does not matter, my question is who decide this line? how to decide this
: line?
: say your line is $x, why $x+1 is considered rich suddenly, because of 1$
: difference?
:
: 16000

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进入USANews版参与讨论

y****t
发帖数: 10233

151

we are not asking more and we are not asking less.
whatever constitution has defined, we are happy with it. For all the rest,
government, please leave it alone.

the
the

【在 D******e 的大作中提到】

: Like military is not free market driven right? We can all set up militia
: and compete to see who is the best?
: Single payer, like government run health care has a lot of advantage.
: The poor cant afford even the cheapest health insurance. They have little
: to enjoy. There are always bad eggs to take advantage of the system.
: People are scamming billions out of medicare today. We need to look at the
: big picture.
: And there are people who lose their jobs, who want to switch careers, get
: higher ed

y****t
发帖数: 10233

152

they figure out what?
other than stretching their hands into my pocket, they figure out nothing.

there
smooth

【在 D******e 的大作中提到】

: Besides, the line is graduated already. People are subsidized gradually
: from 28000 to 88000 a year from 0% to 90%. Read the news. At 88000, there
: is a $1 line, yes. But the difference is already reduced from 100% down to
: 10%. Politicians have already figured it out and tried to make it as smooth
: as possible.
:
: this

D******e
发帖数: 1085

153

Set up militia, Privatize police, fire rescue, convert public schools
private, privatize k-12.
Certain sectors, there is an advantage to have government involved.
Health care is one of them.
Even without the reform bill, you are paying for government.

D******e
发帖数: 1085

154

Take more from this guy, Obama, his pocket is deep.

j******t
发帖数: 65

155

You're misunderstanding the difference between negative and positive
liberties.
The right to life is fundamentally different from a "right" to healthcare.
One does not obligate other people to give you the fruit of their labor.
One does.

【在 p***i 的大作中提到】

: 你沒看懂我的比喻。
: 很多人權是不勞而獲的，比如生命財產的安全和接受基本教育的權利。
: 健康保險是不勞而獲，但不代表它就不是基本人權。

D******e
发帖数: 1085

156

You are benefiting a lot from exploiting the poor already. Be a bit
generous.
The poor is just having a bare-minimum standard of living. You think we
shall just chain them up and feed them dog food and let them die when sick?
Go back in time. You could be a slave and wish someday no humans would be
treated like this. We have come a long way to universal health care. Obama
is the greatest.

【在 j******t 的大作中提到】

: You're misunderstanding the difference between negative and positive
: liberties.
: The right to life is fundamentally different from a "right" to healthcare.
: One does not obligate other people to give you the fruit of their labor.
: One does.

Y*H
发帖数: 1582

157

There are something called charity hospitals and ER.

?
be
Obama

【在 D******e 的大作中提到】

: You are benefiting a lot from exploiting the poor already. Be a bit
: generous.
: The poor is just having a bare-minimum standard of living. You think we
: shall just chain them up and feed them dog food and let them die when sick?
: Go back in time. You could be a slave and wish someday no humans would be
: treated like this. We have come a long way to universal health care. Obama
: is the greatest.

Y*H
发帖数: 1582

158

What he's trying to do is to help the 20% at the risk of the nation, which
is totally ridiculous and 100% political.

Obama

【在 D******e 的大作中提到】

c********e
发帖数: 598

159

我恨不得骂人了。你没sex会死吗？
sex 不是基本人权。Getting Medical Care is Human Rights.
United Nation for the universal declaration of human rights:
Article 25
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health
and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing,
housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to
security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood,
old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his contr

【在 f*******l 的大作中提到】

c********e
发帖数: 598

160

你这种TG教育下的早已不知道啥叫人权,你没有享受过。你也不让别人拥有人权。

【在 l****z 的大作中提到】

: lz有点傻啊,我可记得有句话叫不劳动者不得食.
: 如果医疗什么都是人权,那是不是那些什么活也不干就可以享受医保了.

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进入USANews版参与讨论

Y*H
发帖数: 1582

161

Obama told us that you can measure America's bottom line by looking at
Caterpillar's bottom line.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR1_6ygl0Q0&feature=player_embedded
Well, Caterpillar just announced a $100 million charge to earnings due to
HCR.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703312504575142313494421460.html?mod=rss_Politics_And_Policy

y****t
发帖数: 10233

162

从名字看,就知道是个loser.

【在 c********e 的大作中提到】

:
: 你这种TG教育下的早已不知道啥叫人权,你没有享受过。你也不让别人拥有人权。

q*c
发帖数: 9453

163

...为啥你们这些同学按照自己脑子里面的幻想和别人对话捏？
为啥你不看别人的观点捏？你的观点我可是都看了。
你有钱自然可以享受高级服务- 我无非是说没钱的人享受的
服务有上限，不能像现在这样胡来把整个系统往死里面整。
我并不反对全面医保，但是我反对过分高昂的医疗系统，
和借用“生命无价”这种挣眼泪的噱头。
实事求是就好。

to
much

【在 B**W 的大作中提到】

: See. This is our difference. My point is, to me, your life is more than
: numbers. I don't mind paying tax to save your life. I know there are many
: people like you who want to be treated like meaningless numbers in other
: people's eyes. But that is not the case for many others.
: When we say life is priceless, we are not saying we should exhaust our
: resources to save one particular life. We are saying we must try our best to
: value such a life while keeping other people's lives in mind. You imply
: that

y****t
发帖数: 10233

164

when company's cost going up, the first thing they will try to do is...
those idiots never calculate this into their formulation.

【在 Y*H 的大作中提到】

: Obama told us that you can measure America's bottom line by looking at
: Caterpillar's bottom line.
: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR1_6ygl0Q0&feature=player_embedded
: Well, Caterpillar just announced a $100 million charge to earnings due to
: HCR.
: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703312504575142313494421460.html?mod=rss_Politics_And_Policy

s****t
发帖数: 17096

165

你把HC定義為基本人權可以。。那麼下面我們要討論一下人到底需不需要基本人權
你有生存權，因為你的生存不影響別人。你有言論自由權，但是建立在你不誹謗中傷別人
HC你的得到需要別人來買單，對於別人是否始終權力
是否大家出去grocery shopping，都出世工資卡按比例付賬，少收入少支出，不是很有
平等權力麼
社會主義無法成功，這個不用美國再試驗了把，歐洲搞得還不夠麼

【在 v******e 的大作中提到】

q*c
发帖数: 9453

166

you know taht? called "God bless Amaerica". :)
It has to come from the God
(Actually 人权宣言里面的基本人权，的确是 come from the God :)

【在 d****z 的大作中提到】

: 只要有一项基本人权是不劳而获的，那么劳而不获就必须是人的基本义务。乌拉，共产
: 主义实现了。

Y*H
发帖数: 1582

167

It then translates to less working force ---> less tax dollars to collect.

【在 y****t 的大作中提到】

: when company's cost going up, the first thing they will try to do is...
: those idiots never calculate this into their formulation.

p*****e
发帖数: 7299

168

但有一样，任何基本人权不能以侵害他人利益而实现

【在 q*c 的大作中提到】

: you know taht? called "God bless Amaerica". :)
: It has to come from the God
: (Actually 人权宣言里面的基本人权，的确是 come from the God :)

q*c
发帖数: 9453

169

haha. 罪犯抢劫，罪犯看到的是不劳而获，受害人看到的是生命危害。
只是角度不同而已嘛，干嘛算人犯罪呢，干嘛叫警察捏？？
老美现在好像特流行这个 - 啥事都没基本标准，都是 “个人选择”，哈哈。
难怪上帝教人灭亡，先叫他疯狂呢。

【在 y****t 的大作中提到】

: 你花我的钱买奔驰
: 当然你看到的是爽,我看到的是花钱.

q*c
发帖数: 9453

170

but we all have obligation to serve when army is in need! - even with your
"priceless" life. 这就是为啥你可以享受安全。
如果免费享受保险的人都有记录，公共建设需要的时候
可以强制征夫，那就对了。
权利责任要对等。

the
the

【在 D******e 的大作中提到】

相关主题
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● "You are not allowed to keep your own child"	● 政治領袖要從同性戀/變性戀權力擴張情況下去保護婚姻與兒童 (转载)
进入USANews版参与讨论

q*c
发帖数: 9453

171

或者对等的互相3侵犯 - 必然我们都有为对方参军拼命的义务

【在 p*****e 的大作中提到】

: 但有一样，任何基本人权不能以侵害他人利益而实现

D******e
发帖数: 1085

172

He is my hero. I love the idea that I dont need ever to worry anymore if I
am laid off.
Time to a month-long celebration. Long live the universal care. Long live
Obama.
Besides, when poor people are taken care by the government, you can continue
to enjoy cheap food at a grocery store. When you have to $40000 a year to
the cashier, you have to pay Von's price. But you can cut the prices by
half when you go to a local Hispanic, Chinese store. Cheap labor = cheap
prices. You are benefiting

p*****e
发帖数: 7299

173

你是说毛主席吧？
祝你生活在1959-1961

I
live
continue
to
8/

【在 D******e 的大作中提到】

: He is my hero. I love the idea that I dont need ever to worry anymore if I
: am laid off.
: Time to a month-long celebration. Long live the universal care. Long live
: Obama.
: Besides, when poor people are taken care by the government, you can continue
: to enjoy cheap food at a grocery store. When you have to $40000 a year to
: the cashier, you have to pay Von's price. But you can cut the prices by
: half when you go to a local Hispanic, Chinese store. Cheap labor = cheap
: prices. You are benefiting

y****t
发帖数: 10233

174

guess he is just ready to have sex with obama, to get one of his human
rights claimed finally.

【在 p*****e 的大作中提到】

: 你是说毛主席吧？
: 祝你生活在1959-1961
:
: I
: live
: continue
: to
: 8/

h*****7
发帖数: 2120

175

又见圣母贴

y***d
发帖数: 2330

176

"He is my hero", 怎么看都像小三的语气。男的女的？

I
live
continue
to
8/

【在 D******e 的大作中提到】

j******t
发帖数: 65

177

Please enlighten me, how am I exploiting the poor? Why do you make this
claim when you know jackshit about me?
The entire reason why I'm against ObamaCare is BECAUSE I don't want to
be a slave. I want the freedom to spend my labor on the things I want to
do and I am not ok with other people taking the fruit of that labor by
physical force.
I'm sorry but your demagoguery and guilt-tripping won't persuade me nor
shut me up. And I will NOT allow you to put words into my mouth.

we
sick?
would be
Ob

【在 D******e 的大作中提到】

m*********a
发帖数: 3299

178

Why do we care? If so increase tax rate for those companies. and give money
from increased tax to laid off people.

【在 Y*H 的大作中提到】

: It then translates to less working force ---> less tax dollars to collect.

D******e
发帖数: 1085

179

As humans progress, we socialize, or pool money to support military, police,
etc. Yes, you have to chip in. Sorry about that. You might as well live
on an island and be the king of your own kingdom. Otherwise, We, lead by
Obama will come to make you pay. I know you dont like it. So beat it.

【在 j******t 的大作中提到】

: Please enlighten me, how am I exploiting the poor? Why do you make this
: claim when you know jackshit about me?
: The entire reason why I'm against ObamaCare is BECAUSE I don't want to
: be a slave. I want the freedom to spend my labor on the things I want to
: do and I am not ok with other people taking the fruit of that labor by
: physical force.
: I'm sorry but your demagoguery and guilt-tripping won't persuade me nor
: shut me up. And I will NOT allow you to put words into my mouth.
:
: we

D*****n
发帖数: 363

180

police,
We will beat you and your parasite in chief Obama in the coming elections,
you lazy ass son of a bitch. If we can take down Mass. we can take down
every parasite's state.

【在 D******e 的大作中提到】

: As humans progress, we socialize, or pool money to support military, police,
: etc. Yes, you have to chip in. Sorry about that. You might as well live
: on an island and be the king of your own kingdom. Otherwise, We, lead by
: Obama will come to make you pay. I know you dont like it. So beat it.

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● 开始旗帜鲜明的支持马凯	● 关于医疗改革，涂鸦两句
进入USANews版参与讨论

D******e
发帖数: 1085

181

Chinese labor, Indonesian labor are doing thee dirty work DOMINEERINGLY
right? If you think because nobody is forcing them to do the dirty work,
then it is not called exploitation. Then there would be some exploitation
in this world.

D******e
发帖数: 1085

182

correction.

【在 D******e 的大作中提到】

: Chinese labor, Indonesian labor are doing thee dirty work DOMINEERINGLY
: right? If you think because nobody is forcing them to do the dirty work,
: then it is not called exploitation. Then there would be some exploitation
: in this world.

q*c
发帖数: 9453

183

如果存在一刀切的 magic bullet 来治疗剥削，剥削早没了。
你这种不顾现实强行实现美好愿望就和当年制造几千万人饿死的“大跃进”一个套套。

【在 D******e 的大作中提到】

D******e
发帖数: 1085

184

We will see. We have beaten you to get the health bill passed, havent we.
You arrogant Republicans have lost the presidency and both congress already.
Wake up. The world has changed.
You elites have messed up the country for too long and didnt have to face
the fallouts of the recession and only to make more money.
You are the parasites of the country. Making money off working class.
Taking Trillions from tax payers.
BURN.

【在 D*****n 的大作中提到】

:
: police,
: We will beat you and your parasite in chief Obama in the coming elections,
: you lazy ass son of a bitch. If we can take down Mass. we can take down
: every parasite's state.

y****t
发帖数: 10233

185

dream on man, great chunk of those money falls into the black hole of
government bureaucracy.

money

【在 m*********a 的大作中提到】

: Why do we care? If so increase tax rate for those companies. and give money
: from increased tax to laid off people.

D*****n
发帖数: 363

186

already.
What makes you lazy son of a bitch a working class if you refuse to work
hard and ask me to pay for your food stamps, unempolyment aid, medicaid? The
wealthy and middle class already pays 95% of the tax, and now we have to
pay more b/c you have a new request? Well, we will take this nation back and
fucking nail your lazy ass after elections just like what we did to Carter.

【在 D******e 的大作中提到】

: We will see. We have beaten you to get the health bill passed, havent we.
: You arrogant Republicans have lost the presidency and both congress already.
: Wake up. The world has changed.
: You elites have messed up the country for too long and didnt have to face
: the fallouts of the recession and only to make more money.
: You are the parasites of the country. Making money off working class.
: Taking Trillions from tax payers.
: BURN.
:

c****n
发帖数: 21367

187

bureaucracy is just a beautiful term
see where those "bailout" money goes, isn't it obvious?
who legislate this country, rule this country.

【在 y****t 的大作中提到】

: dream on man, great chunk of those money falls into the black hole of
: government bureaucracy.
:
: money

D******e
发帖数: 1085

188

You are attacking unemployment aid? Every developed country has it. Just
because you are fortunate enough to have a stable job, it does mean everyone
in this country is as fortunate as you.
You are attacking food stamps? They are for those who would starve
otherwise.
You are attacking Medi-aid? It reimburses so little that doctors lose money
on these patients. They would have just died if not for this minimal
support. The actual costs of the drugs are so low. The country gets the
most ba

a**t
发帖数: 3833

189

you sound like Sarah Palin's Son, Trig, all having Down Syndrome. I love to
be lazy and collect taxes. I to love to make you dumb ass fell down and
miserable. I support the president.
...【在 Dintern (Drill, Baby, Drill) 的大作中提到: 】
The
and
Carter.

c****n
发帖数: 21367

190

失业保险不是讨论的焦点
现在说的是medicare, SSN

everyone
money

【在 D******e 的大作中提到】

: You are attacking unemployment aid? Every developed country has it. Just
: because you are fortunate enough to have a stable job, it does mean everyone
: in this country is as fortunate as you.
: You are attacking food stamps? They are for those who would starve
: otherwise.
: You are attacking Medi-aid? It reimburses so little that doctors lose money
: on these patients. They would have just died if not for this minimal
: support. The actual costs of the drugs are so low. The country gets the
: most ba

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● 黄西是个很好用的石蕊测试	● This is great!
进入USANews版参与讨论

j******t
发帖数: 65

191

Wow, you're using the "If you don't like it then leave" argument? Do you
also live in a trailer park and call your sister "wife"? Seriously, if
you want to go ad hominem then I can go all day. But I have no interest
in doing that so drop it and make an actual logical argument please.
In this post you repeat your misunderstanding of negative liberty and
positive liberty. A military and a police force is necessary to protect
the right to life/liberty/property, i.e., your NEGATIVE liberties.
Animal

【在 D******e 的大作中提到】

O*****g
发帖数: 1257

192

sooner or later, more and more will be going galt.

【在 j******t 的大作中提到】

: Wow, you're using the "If you don't like it then leave" argument? Do you
: also live in a trailer park and call your sister "wife"? Seriously, if
: you want to go ad hominem then I can go all day. But I have no interest
: in doing that so drop it and make an actual logical argument please.
: In this post you repeat your misunderstanding of negative liberty and
: positive liberty. A military and a police force is necessary to protect
: the right to life/liberty/property, i.e., your NEGATIVE liberties.
: Animal

a**t
发帖数: 3833

193

wow, dumb, If you don't like the heathcare reform, then go home and fuck
your self.

【在 j******t 的大作中提到】

D*****n
发帖数: 363

194

everyone
money

I have a job b/c I worked hard to earn it, not b/c I'm fortunate. I deserve
to spend my hard earned money to feed my own family not you lazy parasites
who are only good at sucking blood from hardworking people like me. You are
the ones exploiting the hardworking people not us. We already got your ass
in state Mass, and we will get the rest 49 pretty soon.

【在 D******e 的大作中提到】

a**t
发帖数: 3833

195

You probalby have a chinese restaurant job, which make you feel used to your
taist. Other peole dont even both to have such a job. Everybody woks har,
but generally harder working people are stupider...

deserve
are

【在 D*****n 的大作中提到】

:
: everyone
: money
:
: I have a job b/c I worked hard to earn it, not b/c I'm fortunate. I deserve
: to spend my hard earned money to feed my own family not you lazy parasites
: who are only good at sucking blood from hardworking people like me. You are
: the ones exploiting the hardworking people not us. We already got your ass
: in state Mass, and we will get the rest 49 pretty soon.

D*****n
发帖数: 363

196

your
,
You must have Obama's dick in your mouth and are doing a real hard blowjob
for him so that he feels like passing more welfare to you, and that seems to
be what "working hard" means to you.

【在 a**t 的大作中提到】

: You probalby have a chinese restaurant job, which make you feel used to your
: taist. Other peole dont even both to have such a job. Everybody woks har,
: but generally harder working people are stupider...
:
: deserve
: are

a**t
发帖数: 3833

197

I don't have o'd dick. I have my own dick to this job. If you r miseable, my
job is to make you bitter and bitter.

to

【在 D*****n 的大作中提到】

:
: your
: ,
: You must have Obama's dick in your mouth and are doing a real hard blowjob
: for him so that he feels like passing more welfare to you, and that seems to
: be what "working hard" means to you.

D******e
发帖数: 1085

198

You are saying those who dont have a stable job do not work hard? People
get laid off from Intel, Merck, Cities, States. White collar, management,
professional jobs are not immune anymore.
The CEOs, bankers just write themselves blank paychecks just because they
have the power, and not because they deserve it.
The ruling parties, elites write the law to maximize the most from us. At
least, someone in this country still has conscience. Thats why the Bill has
passed. hahahahhahahhahahah.

y****t
发帖数: 10233

199

you bet, when you have all the money goes to communism social welfare,
instead of rewarding entrepreneur, there will sure be hardly any new jobs to
be created or even saved.

has

【在 D******e 的大作中提到】

: You are saying those who dont have a stable job do not work hard? People
: get laid off from Intel, Merck, Cities, States. White collar, management,
: professional jobs are not immune anymore.
: The CEOs, bankers just write themselves blank paychecks just because they
: have the power, and not because they deserve it.
: The ruling parties, elites write the law to maximize the most from us. At
: least, someone in this country still has conscience. Thats why the Bill has
: passed. hahahahhahahhahahah.

O*****g
发帖数: 1257

200

nice, trickle up poverty - POVERTY FOR ALL

to

【在 y****t 的大作中提到】

: you bet, when you have all the money goes to communism social welfare,
: instead of rewarding entrepreneur, there will sure be hardly any new jobs to
: be created or even saved.
:
: has

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进入USANews版参与讨论

a**t
发帖数: 3833

201

are you really dumb, There is no socialist welfare in this country. There
are even not communists in this country. What you said is basically you draw
a pussy and enjoy yourself.

to

【在 y****t 的大作中提到】

: you bet, when you have all the money goes to communism social welfare,
: instead of rewarding entrepreneur, there will sure be hardly any new jobs to
: be created or even saved.
:
: has

j******t
发帖数: 65

202

finally, we reveal the true nature of the argument. The mob is on our side
so reason and logic can go to hell. Anyone who doesn't agree with us will
be punished! The will of the people shall not be denied! Praise the glory
of the Great Proletariat Cultural Rev...oh oops, wrong socialist movement
sorry.

【在 a**t 的大作中提到】

: wow, dumb, If you don't like the heathcare reform, then go home and fuck
: your self.

t*b
发帖数: 850

203

whay there are so many stupid people like you.
it is not realistic that everyone must have the same health insurance. It is
bullshit to say $16k for health insurance. This is just a spending issue.
how can you imagine to have all the same thing Bill Gates have. If you can't
have them, you then say it is because Bill Gates set the bar too high?

this

【在 y****t 的大作中提到】

: it does not matter, my question is who decide this line? how to decide this
: line?
: say your line is $x, why $x+1 is considered rich suddenly, because of 1$
: difference?
:
: 16000

w**h
发帖数: 1121

204

拿人权来支持医疗改革是非常不高明的做法。联合国人权宣言里提到的东西多了去了，
http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/
例如第23款提到人人有工作权利，如果有人失业了，难道政府就得出于保障人权的目的
新给出一个政府职位？
出于分散风险和控制医疗成本目的而进行的医疗改革才是可行的。出门开车也要有个强制
保险，把医疗保险搞成象汽车保险那样更有说服力一些。

【在 v******e 的大作中提到】

j******t
发帖数: 65

205

That doesn't work either.
Auto insurance is forced...IF you choose to own a car.
Health insurance is forced...IF you choose to live? That doesn't sound
like a good analogy to me.

强制

【在 w**h 的大作中提到】

: 拿人权来支持医疗改革是非常不高明的做法。联合国人权宣言里提到的东西多了去了，
: http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/
: 例如第23款提到人人有工作权利，如果有人失业了，难道政府就得出于保障人权的目的
: 新给出一个政府职位？
: 出于分散风险和控制医疗成本目的而进行的医疗改革才是可行的。出门开车也要有个强制
: 保险，把医疗保险搞成象汽车保险那样更有说服力一些。

E********t
发帖数: 2447

206

你从小受到的教育里一定有这么一条：权利和义务总是相对应的。
请问你作为基本人权的health care的权利，它所对应的义务是什么？
问题二：在你所倡导的应该享受health care基本人权的群体里边，如果他们并没有
履行问题一里的义务怎么办？

【在 v******e 的大作中提到】

(共1页)

进入USANews版参与讨论

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