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本页内容为未名空间相应帖子的节选和存档,一周内的贴子最多显示50字,超过一周显示500字 访问原贴
TrustInJesus版 - 我相信沒有神(譯)
相关主题
Atheists' Circular Reasoning(回顧)最后警告: Eloihim网友,请即刻修改你的昵称
搞笑的是基督徒总说神赐的免费礼物对基督徒的一点建议
Spontaneous 的定义从某些基督徒攻击进化论的行为看其信仰的虚妄 (原创)
進化論的隨機因素 (給神創論者掃盲)基版名基名言
littletshirt 的惡意謊言mutation mutation
基督徒的潛規則(三 ) 絕不直接回答問題小仙鹤,sequential mutation搞定了没?
行,就說一下 Spontaneous mutation善恶与道德标准
請問littletshirt 讀的是哪本進化論?If evolution is real then why are there still monkeys?
相关话题的讨论汇总
话题: god话题: mutation话题: random话题: evolution话题: spontaneous
1 (共1页)
E*****m
发帖数: 25615
1
原文 http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5015557
作者: Penn Jillette
我相信沒有神。我已經超過無神論了,無神論只是"不相信神存在"。 不相信神存在是
很容易- 你不能證明一個負面宣稱,所以你不必去證明。 你也不能證明,沒有一隻大
象在我的汽車行李廂。你不信嗎?那現在呢? 也許他只是躲起來, 你要不要去再檢查
一次? 喔! 我忘了告訴你我心目中大象的定義是神秘,秩序,善良,愛以及一個備胎。
因此,任何一個熱愛真理的人應該先從沒有對神的信仰開始, 然後尋找神存在的證據
,她需要尋找一些客觀的證據表明存在超自然的力量。大部分的人還停留在此搜索階段
, 主張無神論比較簡單。
但是要陳述什麼是“我相信的“需要更多的個人主觀意見, 以及對生命整體認識上信念
的跨越,所以我事實上是說:“我相信沒有神“。
邁出了這一步, 我對生命中的每一刻都有了自覺。我不貪心, 我有愛,我有藍天,我
有彩虹, 我有賀卡, 這就夠了。 這真的夠了, 這些就是世上的所有東西, 而這世
界對我來說是非常豐富的。 我認為還想對看不見的神要求更多東西是挺粗魯的。 我有
撫養我長大的家庭對我的愛, 以及從我現在撫養的家庭對我的愛, 真的夠了。 我不
需要天堂。我贏了遺傳樂透,我有每一天的喜樂。
相信沒有神意味著除了用真心的善意和悔過, 我不能真的被原諒。 這是好事,這使我
必須想得更周到小心,我必須一開始就善待別人。相信沒有神讓我不自我中心,我可以
閱讀來自不同的文化的人的不同想法。如果沒有神,我們可以同意現實,我可以不斷學
習修正我犯錯的地方。 我們都可以不斷調整,讓我們好好溝通。我不去跟那些說 “我
信這個,你說什麼做什麼都不會動搖我的信仰“ 的人打交道, 那只是一個宗教式的方
法來說,“閉嘴“。 我認為一個人說 “我小時候被教導的以及我的虛擬朋友比你所有
能說或能做都多“ 是對人最大的污辱。 所以,相信沒有神讓我可以被證明是錯誤的,
這是有趣的, 這意味著我能學到東西。
相信沒有神意味著 , 我的家人以及世上所有人的痛苦,不是因為一個全知全能無所不
在的力量沒有盡力去幫助,或者只是為了考驗我們。 而是我們在未來能夠彼此幫助的
機會,沒有上帝意味著有可能在未來可以減少世間苦難。
相信沒有神給了我更大的心靈空間去相信家庭,人們,愛,真理,美,性,果凍和其他
真實的東西。 這使得我的這一輩子 是最好的一輩子。
譯者註: 無神論(atheism) 是 "不相信有神" (not believe), 是缺乏對神存在的信
仰, 不見得是積極性的否定神的存在, 就好像我們對三億光年外的某顆星是否有行星
一樣, 缺乏對存在的信仰。 本文作者的主張是"相信沒有神", 這是一個積極去否定
神存在的信念。 NPR 出的題目是"This I believe", 特別要求作者不可以寫他不相信
的事情, 不能寫"我不相信有神" 這種題目, 所以作者就更直接的寫他相信沒有神。
l**********t
发帖数: 5754
2
thanks for sharing. I respect your belief.

胎。

【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: 原文 http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5015557
: 作者: Penn Jillette
: 我相信沒有神。我已經超過無神論了,無神論只是"不相信神存在"。 不相信神存在是
: 很容易- 你不能證明一個負面宣稱,所以你不必去證明。 你也不能證明,沒有一隻大
: 象在我的汽車行李廂。你不信嗎?那現在呢? 也許他只是躲起來, 你要不要去再檢查
: 一次? 喔! 我忘了告訴你我心目中大象的定義是神秘,秩序,善良,愛以及一個備胎。
: 因此,任何一個熱愛真理的人應該先從沒有對神的信仰開始, 然後尋找神存在的證據
: ,她需要尋找一些客觀的證據表明存在超自然的力量。大部分的人還停留在此搜索階段
: , 主張無神論比較簡單。
: 但是要陳述什麼是“我相信的“需要更多的個人主觀意見, 以及對生命整體認識上信念

E*****m
发帖数: 25615
3

You don't need to. I don't know how you can respect
the belief that Jesus is a jerk or non-existent . Really? How?
Are you confusing the right to believe and the belief itself?
I don't respect yours. But I respect your right to believe whatever
fairytale you like.

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: thanks for sharing. I respect your belief.
:
: 胎。

l**********t
发帖数: 5754
4
"我不去跟那些說 “我信這個,你說什麼做什麼都不會動搖我的信仰“ 的人打交道,
那只是一個宗教式的方法來說,“閉嘴“。 我認為一個人說 “我小時候被教導的以及
我的虛擬朋友比你所有能說或能做都多“ 是對人最大的污辱。"

【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
:
: You don't need to. I don't know how you can respect
: the belief that Jesus is a jerk or non-existent . Really? How?
: Are you confusing the right to believe and the belief itself?
: I don't respect yours. But I respect your right to believe whatever
: fairytale you like.

E*****m
发帖数: 25615
5


嘿嘿! 你有證據,我一定相信你。 你敢説有證據證明神不存在就不信神嗎?

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: "我不去跟那些說 “我信這個,你說什麼做什麼都不會動搖我的信仰“ 的人打交道,
: 那只是一個宗教式的方法來說,“閉嘴“。 我認為一個人說 “我小時候被教導的以及
: 我的虛擬朋友比你所有能說或能做都多“ 是對人最大的污辱。"

l**********t
发帖数: 5754
6
you believe in "random mutation/natural selection" anyway even w/o proof
that mutations are random/spontaneous. You simply take that as granted.

【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
:
: ,
: 嘿嘿! 你有證據,我一定相信你。 你敢説有證據證明神不存在就不信神嗎?

E*****m
发帖数: 25615
7

It's based on the evidences I read. And which evolution book you read
failed you?
Of course, we both know you can't answer that question for an obvious reason
.

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: you believe in "random mutation/natural selection" anyway even w/o proof
: that mutations are random/spontaneous. You simply take that as granted.

l*****a
发帖数: 38403
8
lol

reason

【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
:
: It's based on the evidences I read. And which evolution book you read
: failed you?
: Of course, we both know you can't answer that question for an obvious reason
: .

G******e
发帖数: 9567
9

reason
糟蹋这么可爱的小动物,太残忍了

【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
:
: It's based on the evidences I read. And which evolution book you read
: failed you?
: Of course, we both know you can't answer that question for an obvious reason
: .

J*****3
发帖数: 4298
10
他们基因突变了,看到没

【在 G******e 的大作中提到】
:
: reason
: 糟蹋这么可爱的小动物,太残忍了

相关主题
基督徒的潛規則(三 ) 絕不直接回答問題(回顧)最后警告: Eloihim网友,请即刻修改你的昵称
行,就說一下 Spontaneous mutation对基督徒的一点建议
請問littletshirt 讀的是哪本進化論?从某些基督徒攻击进化论的行为看其信仰的虚妄 (原创)
G******e
发帖数: 9567
11

也可能是杂交的结果

【在 J*****3 的大作中提到】
: 他们基因突变了,看到没
l**********t
发帖数: 5754
12
"It's based on the evidences I read" -- anyone can claim to read any
book,
but to understand is a different story -- it requires critical thinking.
Both of us know that you can't even
tell the difference between "mutation" vs. "random".

【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
:
: It's based on the evidences I read. And which evolution book you read
: failed you?
: Of course, we both know you can't answer that question for an obvious reason
: .

o**1
发帖数: 6383
13
r u serious?
小仙鹤怎么还不装个中文系统?

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: "It's based on the evidences I read" -- anyone can claim to read any
: book,
: but to understand is a different story -- it requires critical thinking.
: Both of us know that you can't even
: tell the difference between "mutation" vs. "random".

l**********t
发帖数: 5754
14
i'm kidding.
actually here is the test of E's understanding of Darwin's theory:
发信人: Eloihim (真神), 信区: TrustInJesus
标 题: Re: 简单类比:演化和神创哪个受现有证据支持最好?
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed Apr 27 15:40:58 2011, 美东)
就是每一代多少跟前一代有點不同, 這也有問題嗎?

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: "It's based on the evidences I read" -- anyone can claim to read any
: book,
: but to understand is a different story -- it requires critical thinking.
: Both of us know that you can't even
: tell the difference between "mutation" vs. "random".

J*****3
发帖数: 4298
15
你下午问我
我上次科普里已经讲了
演化/进化的机制是自然选择,是有选择性,有方向的,基因突变可以是随机的,但是
突变后产生的新的特征是不是能够更好地节省能量/适应环境/生存,不是随机的,是有
选择性的。
又来了,每次都死循环一遍,有意思吗?

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: i'm kidding.
: actually here is the test of E's understanding of Darwin's theory:
: 发信人: Eloihim (真神), 信区: TrustInJesus
: 标 题: Re: 简单类比:演化和神创哪个受现有证据支持最好?
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed Apr 27 15:40:58 2011, 美东)
: 就是每一代多少跟前一代有點不同, 這也有問題嗎?

G******e
发帖数: 9567
16

After lots of critical thinking, you can tell the difference between "
mutation" vs "random" is that "mutation" is not "random", right?

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: "It's based on the evidences I read" -- anyone can claim to read any
: book,
: but to understand is a different story -- it requires critical thinking.
: Both of us know that you can't even
: tell the difference between "mutation" vs. "random".

l**********t
发帖数: 5754
17
have you heard site-targeted mutation?

【在 G******e 的大作中提到】
:
: After lots of critical thinking, you can tell the difference between "
: mutation" vs "random" is that "mutation" is not "random", right?

l**********t
发帖数: 5754
18

how do you prove it is random? or you just take it as an assumption?
selection? is it random or deterministic?
exactly.... what you have posted on atheists' 科普 introduction on "
evolution theory" have been posted here many many times.

【在 J*****3 的大作中提到】
: 你下午问我
: 我上次科普里已经讲了
: 演化/进化的机制是自然选择,是有选择性,有方向的,基因突变可以是随机的,但是
: 突变后产生的新的特征是不是能够更好地节省能量/适应环境/生存,不是随机的,是有
: 选择性的。
: 又来了,每次都死循环一遍,有意思吗?

l*****a
发帖数: 38403
19
你还是老老实实回答一哈你的信仰是不是盲信吧

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: how do you prove it is random? or you just take it as an assumption?
: selection? is it random or deterministic?
: exactly.... what you have posted on atheists' 科普 introduction on "
: evolution theory" have been posted here many many times.

J*****3
发帖数: 4298
20
没错,我就是要贴科普的东西。还有,对于头里灌水养鱼的我不浪费时间

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: how do you prove it is random? or you just take it as an assumption?
: selection? is it random or deterministic?
: exactly.... what you have posted on atheists' 科普 introduction on "
: evolution theory" have been posted here many many times.

相关主题
基版名基名言善恶与道德标准
mutation mutationIf evolution is real then why are there still monkeys?
小仙鹤,sequential mutation搞定了没?Can Evolution Explain Our Origins?
w*********r
发帖数: 3382
21
you are distorting words
i am not mutation expert but here is some of my humble opinion on this
subject
mutation can be spontaneous mutation, or induced mutation. what we are
talking about here is presumably spontaneous mutation that has been happening throughout the history of evolution
spontaneous mutation can be random, and the reason we think so is that so far scientists did not see a pattern of spontaneous mutation occurring, or any evidence that supports that spontaneous mutation happens in a predictable manner
so by definition it grants us the right to call it random, for now at least, right?
for induced mutation, i think it is a bit complicated
by random, it can mean when, where, what comes out, how much, etc.
like we know radiation can cause mutation occur much faster, so that gives us a teeny tiny predictability of when, but where and what comes out, how much is still up in the air
and the site-directed mutation you mentioned, it is just scientific methods to try to induce mutations at specific sites in the DNA molecule. i don't know much about it. do you know whether it can be controlled well enough to produce the same level of mutation each time? if not, at least for what comes out and how much it is still random, right?
it is all about controllability in my opinion, and i hope one day science can eventually tell a gene "you go change in 1min from now and make yourself look like a jar", that would be wonderful, but before that, with the limited control we have right now, i don't see a problem calling it random

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: how do you prove it is random? or you just take it as an assumption?
: selection? is it random or deterministic?
: exactly.... what you have posted on atheists' 科普 introduction on "
: evolution theory" have been posted here many many times.

E*****m
发帖数: 25615
22
以我的了解, mutation 是不是 true random 根本不是那麼重要, 我們
甚至可以説就是神在操縱 mutation,littletshirt 以前同意 natural selection
確實發生, 這樣的話就是神導進化, 但也是同意進化, 但是説 littletshirt
像 Collins 一樣是支持神導進化她又不同意了, 怎麼問也問不出為什麼不同意,
連她到底認不認為一個物種會演化成另一個她都不肯說, 問她承認不承認
人和其他物種是同祖先, 她要糾纏『同祖先』是什麼意思(到底有啥可能能誤會
同祖先的意思???),就是不肯回答。
小島等真正生物高手上來給她講過她錯在哪裡,不果她根本不看。 所以跟她談
進化論都是白忙,她根本沒有誠心講自己的看法,只是來糾纏
mutation/random 這兩個詞而已。
不信的話,哪位問得出她到底同不同意物種間會演化(不管變異是否隨機),
如果不同意,為什麼有變異有自然選擇還是不會演化,
如果我送十個包子, 另外加送十個給 littletshirt。
l**********t
发帖数: 5754
23

that's your misunderstanding -- the root cause of genetic variations is the
key difference:
Atheists ASSUME "random" or "spontaneous" cause (a.ka. unknown causes).
Christians believe God is the ultimate driving force of all creation.
then you are agree with Christian belief. "Evolution theory", if thoroughly
proven, is just a tool (mechanics) used by God to create.

【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: 以我的了解, mutation 是不是 true random 根本不是那麼重要, 我們
: 甚至可以説就是神在操縱 mutation,littletshirt 以前同意 natural selection
: 確實發生, 這樣的話就是神導進化, 但也是同意進化, 但是説 littletshirt
: 像 Collins 一樣是支持神導進化她又不同意了, 怎麼問也問不出為什麼不同意,
: 連她到底認不認為一個物種會演化成另一個她都不肯說, 問她承認不承認
: 人和其他物種是同祖先, 她要糾纏『同祖先』是什麼意思(到底有啥可能能誤會
: 同祖先的意思???),就是不肯回答。
: 小島等真正生物高手上來給她講過她錯在哪裡,不果她根本不看。 所以跟她談
: 進化論都是白忙,她根本沒有誠心講自己的看法,只是來糾纏
: mutation/random 這兩個詞而已。

w*********r
发帖数: 3382
24
Atheists ASSUME "random" or "spontaneous" cause (a.ka. unknown causes).
and that assumption is so far supported by the evidence observed
Christians believe God is the ultimate driving force of all creation.
in comparison your belief is based on a two thousand years old book
congrats
J*****3
发帖数: 4298
25
那么你同意人类是由其他动物演化来的了

the
thoroughly

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: that's your misunderstanding -- the root cause of genetic variations is the
: key difference:
: Atheists ASSUME "random" or "spontaneous" cause (a.ka. unknown causes).
: Christians believe God is the ultimate driving force of all creation.
: then you are agree with Christian belief. "Evolution theory", if thoroughly
: proven, is just a tool (mechanics) used by God to create.

l**********t
发帖数: 5754
26

"you are distorting words. i am not mutation expert but here is some of my
humble opinion on this subject"
-- if you are not familiar with the subject, please don't start with an
allegtion about "distorting words", because I'm a biochem major so I know
what these terms mean in the context of biological science.
"mutation can be spontaneous mutation, or induced mutation. what we are
talking about here is presumably spontaneous mutation that has been
happening throughout the history of evolution"
-- presumably: used to convey that what is asserted is very likely though
not known for certain. So thanking you for supporting my arguement that "
Evolution theory" is silent/uncertain about the underlying cause of
mutations.
"....so is that so far scientists did not see a pattern of spontaneous ..."
observations are always limited by human empirical knowledge. so "
spontaneous" or "random" is just another nice way to say "unknown" w/o
explicitly admitting it.
What may seem "random" to you can actually be deterministic to someone else
from different perspective.
"...the site-directed mutation you mentioned, it is just scientific methods
to try to induce mutations at specific sites in the DNA molecule. i don't
know much about it. do you know whether it can be controlled well enough to
produce the same level of mutation each time? "
---Not sure what you mean but you can mutate the DNA precisely according to
your design -- say disable/replace key aa at the catalytic center of an
enzyme, or change the DNA regulatory motifs etc. Theroteically, you can
create "new" creatures in the lab using the basic building blocks and tools(
DNA/RNA/AA, etc) created by God -- that's the bread & butter of modern
biotech industry.

【在 w*********r 的大作中提到】
: Atheists ASSUME "random" or "spontaneous" cause (a.ka. unknown causes).
: and that assumption is so far supported by the evidence observed
: Christians believe God is the ultimate driving force of all creation.
: in comparison your belief is based on a two thousand years old book
: congrats

l**********t
发帖数: 5754
27

what evidence? the fossil records & the gene homology only show the RESULTS
of what happened, not the CAUSES for the variations.

【在 w*********r 的大作中提到】
: Atheists ASSUME "random" or "spontaneous" cause (a.ka. unknown causes).
: and that assumption is so far supported by the evidence observed
: Christians believe God is the ultimate driving force of all creation.
: in comparison your belief is based on a two thousand years old book
: congrats

J*****3
发帖数: 4298
28
浪费那时间理她呢,就一个胡搅蛮缠

【在 w*********r 的大作中提到】
: Atheists ASSUME "random" or "spontaneous" cause (a.ka. unknown causes).
: and that assumption is so far supported by the evidence observed
: Christians believe God is the ultimate driving force of all creation.
: in comparison your belief is based on a two thousand years old book
: congrats

J*****3
发帖数: 4298
29
“Bible has documented the evolution of all apes. ”
这个你同意吧,如果你同意了,在这个基础上,我们继续讨论

RESULTS

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: what evidence? the fossil records & the gene homology only show the RESULTS
: of what happened, not the CAUSES for the variations.

w*********r
发帖数: 3382
30
all we said was it CAN BE random, but when you put it it became we were
making a positive assertion, to me that is distorting words
it is true the underlying cause of mutation (if there is a need for it) is
not fully understood, science admits that.
without a good scientific model to explain mutation, and the observable
spontaneous mutations do not appear to follow a pattern, doesn't it
naturally lead to the temporary conclusion that it can be random?
maybe some day theories will be established on the different causes of
mutations, science will give it a fair look. that is the beauty of science isn't it, never stop to improve and correct itself
in comparison, as a science major you should know that the giant leap of
faith is on your side, ok? from uncertain to making the stiff, unchallengeable assertion that "god"
did it, doesn't it take much more to verify a claim as such? and what do you
have so far? nothing but your blind belief...

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: what evidence? the fossil records & the gene homology only show the RESULTS
: of what happened, not the CAUSES for the variations.

相关主题
Atheist professor destroys evolution搞笑的是基督徒总说神赐的免费礼物
宗教就像萤火虫,得在黑暗里才能闪耀Spontaneous 的定义
Atheists' Circular Reasoning進化論的隨機因素 (給神創論者掃盲)
J*****3
发帖数: 4298
31
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/IIIC3Causes.shtml
The Causes of Mutations

isn't it, never stop to improve and correct itself

【在 w*********r 的大作中提到】
: all we said was it CAN BE random, but when you put it it became we were
: making a positive assertion, to me that is distorting words
: it is true the underlying cause of mutation (if there is a need for it) is
: not fully understood, science admits that.
: without a good scientific model to explain mutation, and the observable
: spontaneous mutations do not appear to follow a pattern, doesn't it
: naturally lead to the temporary conclusion that it can be random?
: maybe some day theories will be established on the different causes of
: mutations, science will give it a fair look. that is the beauty of science isn't it, never stop to improve and correct itself
: in comparison, as a science major you should know that the giant leap of

w*********r
发帖数: 3382
32
so do you believe that god guided the process of evolution?

RESULTS

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: what evidence? the fossil records & the gene homology only show the RESULTS
: of what happened, not the CAUSES for the variations.

J*****3
发帖数: 4298
33
要直接问她是不是认为人是从其他物种演化来的

【在 w*********r 的大作中提到】
: so do you believe that god guided the process of evolution?
:
: RESULTS

w*********r
发帖数: 3382
34
and do you believe that mutations, for whatever reasons they happen, are
what caused the evolution of species?

RESULTS

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: what evidence? the fossil records & the gene homology only show the RESULTS
: of what happened, not the CAUSES for the variations.

w*********r
发帖数: 3382
35
and do you agree human evolved from ancient species to its current form?

RESULTS

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: what evidence? the fossil records & the gene homology only show the RESULTS
: of what happened, not the CAUSES for the variations.

l**********t
发帖数: 5754
36

"all we said was it CAN BE random, but when you put it it became we were
making a positive assertion, to me that is distorting words. it is true the
underlying cause of mutation (if there is a need for it) is not fully
understood, science admits that.without a good scientific model to explain
mutation, and the observable spontaneous mutations do not appear to follow a
pattern, doesn't it
naturally lead to the temporary conclusion that it can be random? ....maybe
some day theories will be established on the different causes of mutations,
science will give it a fair look. that is the beauty of science isn't it,
never stop to improve and correct itself"
-- this is the most educated answer on "evolution theory" I have ever read
on this board. Unfortunately few of the general atheist public realize "
underlying cause of mutation (if there is a need for it) is not fully
understood....". The assumption is touted as proof.
"in comparison, as a science major you should know that the giant leap of
faith is on your side, ok? from uncertain to making the stiff,
unchallengeable assertion that "god" did it, doesn't it take much more to
verify a claim as such? and what do you have so far? nothing but your blind
belief... "

【在 w*********r 的大作中提到】
: and do you agree human evolved from ancient species to its current form?
:
: RESULTS

D*****r
发帖数: 6791
37
小仙鹤,我说两句:
1.你宣称上帝造成了突变,却没有证据来支持。进化论所称的突变,是在实验室里有观
测的,这种随机突变会发生,而且有一些常见的突变类型,比如同一片段多复制一次(
少复制了一次)。你所说的上帝造成突变却没有一例观测证据。
2.此外,现有的variation已经提供了足够多的多样性,由自然选择等机制导致演化的
正常进行。不管这些variation最初是怎么形成的,现在各种群内已经形成了这么多的
variation,即使突变现在完全不发生,演化也还是在不断进行。

RESULTS

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: "all we said was it CAN BE random, but when you put it it became we were
: making a positive assertion, to me that is distorting words. it is true the
: underlying cause of mutation (if there is a need for it) is not fully
: understood, science admits that.without a good scientific model to explain
: mutation, and the observable spontaneous mutations do not appear to follow a
: pattern, doesn't it
: naturally lead to the temporary conclusion that it can be random? ....maybe
: some day theories will be established on the different causes of mutations,
: science will give it a fair look. that is the beauty of science isn't it,

J*****3
发帖数: 4298
38
JJWW,那你是相信人是又其他物种演化的,正面回答一个

the
a
maybe
,

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: "all we said was it CAN BE random, but when you put it it became we were
: making a positive assertion, to me that is distorting words. it is true the
: underlying cause of mutation (if there is a need for it) is not fully
: understood, science admits that.without a good scientific model to explain
: mutation, and the observable spontaneous mutations do not appear to follow a
: pattern, doesn't it
: naturally lead to the temporary conclusion that it can be random? ....maybe
: some day theories will be established on the different causes of mutations,
: science will give it a fair look. that is the beauty of science isn't it,

J*****3
发帖数: 4298
39
不要论断其他人是不是EDUCATED,噢对了,你怎么不捍卫圣经真理解释下蚂蚱4条腿,
蛇吃土呢

the
a
maybe
,

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: "all we said was it CAN BE random, but when you put it it became we were
: making a positive assertion, to me that is distorting words. it is true the
: underlying cause of mutation (if there is a need for it) is not fully
: understood, science admits that.without a good scientific model to explain
: mutation, and the observable spontaneous mutations do not appear to follow a
: pattern, doesn't it
: naturally lead to the temporary conclusion that it can be random? ....maybe
: some day theories will be established on the different causes of mutations,
: science will give it a fair look. that is the beauty of science isn't it,

l**********t
发帖数: 5754
40
I agree they share similiar building blocks, as supported by scientific
evidences.
The world "evolve" is not clearly defined and heavily abused by athesits to
imply "random/spantenous" transformation in the context of "evolution theory
", which discredit God for His role in creation.
For example, imagine yourself see all the models of cars sicne car was
invented. Do you agree that modern day cars "evolved" from these older
models? I would. But how? We know the design/manufacturing/testing/marketing
/cunsumer selection process that guided the "evolution" of these cars. Now
imagine you don't have that knowledge and all the evidences that you have
are the relics of old cars -- what can you say about the "how" part? You
have to come up with some assumptions -- how about "random" variation?

【在 w*********r 的大作中提到】
: and do you agree human evolved from ancient species to its current form?
:
: RESULTS

相关主题
進化論的隨機因素 (給神創論者掃盲)行,就說一下 Spontaneous mutation
littletshirt 的惡意謊言請問littletshirt 讀的是哪本進化論?
基督徒的潛規則(三 ) 絕不直接回答問題(回顧)最后警告: Eloihim网友,请即刻修改你的昵称
J*****3
发帖数: 4298
41
一个未知的东西都是你的神造的,就如你的兄弟举例说
有人放P,我不知道谁干的,那肯定是耶和华干的。就这个逻辑,你JW的东西我只看开头

to
theory
marketing
Now

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: I agree they share similiar building blocks, as supported by scientific
: evidences.
: The world "evolve" is not clearly defined and heavily abused by athesits to
: imply "random/spantenous" transformation in the context of "evolution theory
: ", which discredit God for His role in creation.
: For example, imagine yourself see all the models of cars sicne car was
: invented. Do you agree that modern day cars "evolved" from these older
: models? I would. But how? We know the design/manufacturing/testing/marketing
: /cunsumer selection process that guided the "evolution" of these cars. Now
: imagine you don't have that knowledge and all the evidences that you have

l**********t
发帖数: 5754
42

because it is faith vs. assumption.
that's incorrect. you can produce whatever mutation in the lab, but these
are not the unique mutations that lead to the unique events in the sequence
of events that lead to the life/human appearance (not to mention the unique
environment states that enforce the "natural selection")
again, you observed these OUTCOMES and the underlying mechanics is
attributed to uncertainty in theromal dynamics.
"不管这些variation最初是怎么形成的" -- I think 不管这些variation最初是怎么形
成的 is the only conflict between atheists and Christians.

【在 D*****r 的大作中提到】
: 小仙鹤,我说两句:
: 1.你宣称上帝造成了突变,却没有证据来支持。进化论所称的突变,是在实验室里有观
: 测的,这种随机突变会发生,而且有一些常见的突变类型,比如同一片段多复制一次(
: 少复制了一次)。你所说的上帝造成突变却没有一例观测证据。
: 2.此外,现有的variation已经提供了足够多的多样性,由自然选择等机制导致演化的
: 正常进行。不管这些variation最初是怎么形成的,现在各种群内已经形成了这么多的
: variation,即使突变现在完全不发生,演化也还是在不断进行。
:
: RESULTS

J*****3
发帖数: 4298
43
LOL 就你们那个蚂蚱4条腿还拿来当科学的证据呢
对付你这样胡搅蛮缠的,只能讲神的逻辑

sequence
unique

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: because it is faith vs. assumption.
: that's incorrect. you can produce whatever mutation in the lab, but these
: are not the unique mutations that lead to the unique events in the sequence
: of events that lead to the life/human appearance (not to mention the unique
: environment states that enforce the "natural selection")
: again, you observed these OUTCOMES and the underlying mechanics is
: attributed to uncertainty in theromal dynamics.
: "不管这些variation最初是怎么形成的" -- I think 不管这些variation最初是怎么形
: 成的 is the only conflict between atheists and Christians.

D*****r
发帖数: 6791
44
活的生命体和车不一样,活的生命体可以自己造自己,
亲代生了子代,代代延续,在什么地方你非要插一个god进来?

to
theory
marketing
Now

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: I agree they share similiar building blocks, as supported by scientific
: evidences.
: The world "evolve" is not clearly defined and heavily abused by athesits to
: imply "random/spantenous" transformation in the context of "evolution theory
: ", which discredit God for His role in creation.
: For example, imagine yourself see all the models of cars sicne car was
: invented. Do you agree that modern day cars "evolved" from these older
: models? I would. But how? We know the design/manufacturing/testing/marketing
: /cunsumer selection process that guided the "evolution" of these cars. Now
: imagine you don't have that knowledge and all the evidences that you have

J*****3
发帖数: 4298
45
GOD 是第三者,一定要插进来

【在 D*****r 的大作中提到】
: 活的生命体和车不一样,活的生命体可以自己造自己,
: 亲代生了子代,代代延续,在什么地方你非要插一个god进来?
:
: to
: theory
: marketing
: Now

w*********r
发帖数: 3382
46
it is not so much the difference in views of the world
it is more about the ways how you get to it
it is evidence-based, self-adjusting scientific methodology
VS
unchallengeable, dogmatic religious blind faith
you also mentioned evidence a lot
let me ask you a question from E's previous post:
what evidence does it take for you to not believe in god?
just give me a straight answer, is there any?
now you know what religious dogma is...

the
a
maybe
,

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: because it is faith vs. assumption.
: that's incorrect. you can produce whatever mutation in the lab, but these
: are not the unique mutations that lead to the unique events in the sequence
: of events that lead to the life/human appearance (not to mention the unique
: environment states that enforce the "natural selection")
: again, you observed these OUTCOMES and the underlying mechanics is
: attributed to uncertainty in theromal dynamics.
: "不管这些variation最初是怎么形成的" -- I think 不管这些variation最初是怎么形
: 成的 is the only conflict between atheists and Christians.

J*****3
发帖数: 4298
47
跟直接上来喊口号根本不要证据的人讲理,累死你。关键是人家双重标准,当然也不相
信证据

http://www.mitbbs.com/article_t1/TrustInJesus/756807_0_2.html

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: because it is faith vs. assumption.
: that's incorrect. you can produce whatever mutation in the lab, but these
: are not the unique mutations that lead to the unique events in the sequence
: of events that lead to the life/human appearance (not to mention the unique
: environment states that enforce the "natural selection")
: again, you observed these OUTCOMES and the underlying mechanics is
: attributed to uncertainty in theromal dynamics.
: "不管这些variation最初是怎么形成的" -- I think 不管这些variation最初是怎么形
: 成的 is the only conflict between atheists and Christians.

l**********t
发帖数: 5754
48

a dead fossil is a dead fossil
ok....replace the analogy cars with models of robots that build robots...
Eithr God or UNKNOWN/random casues. Tt is a personal preference. No one
would try to convince others "scientifically" that chocolate icecream tastes
better than vanilla ice-cream, so don't try to convince others that a
convinient "random" explanation is more "scientific" than faith in God.

【在 D*****r 的大作中提到】
: 活的生命体和车不一样,活的生命体可以自己造自己,
: 亲代生了子代,代代延续,在什么地方你非要插一个god进来?
:
: to
: theory
: marketing
: Now

J*****3
发帖数: 4298
49
你不相信证据,盲信你的好了,我很支持,撒花。但是拿来给没有绝智的人洗脑,恐怕
不行。不是人人都如你,逻辑大跳跃,喊口号不讲证据的。

tastes

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: a dead fossil is a dead fossil
: ok....replace the analogy cars with models of robots that build robots...
: Eithr God or UNKNOWN/random casues. Tt is a personal preference. No one
: would try to convince others "scientifically" that chocolate icecream tastes
: better than vanilla ice-cream, so don't try to convince others that a
: convinient "random" explanation is more "scientific" than faith in God.

D*****r
发帖数: 6791
50
你说是faith就可以公开否认科学界的结论了?不要再自己骗自己了,你的这些分析有
生物学的教材和论文支持么?还是说你觉得这些是你的原创见解,可以颠覆达尔文,只
是生物学家压制你不认可你的见解?
已经发生的事情没有办法重复,但依然可以根据现有的证据和机制,来得到有效结论。
你却是声称一些子虚乌有的东西,而且拒绝提供证据,以信仰为借口,反攻科学的理论。
小仙鹤,look at yourself,I know Jesus saved you,but look at what
christianity has done to you.

sequence
unique
化的
多的

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: a dead fossil is a dead fossil
: ok....replace the analogy cars with models of robots that build robots...
: Eithr God or UNKNOWN/random casues. Tt is a personal preference. No one
: would try to convince others "scientifically" that chocolate icecream tastes
: better than vanilla ice-cream, so don't try to convince others that a
: convinient "random" explanation is more "scientific" than faith in God.

相关主题
对基督徒的一点建议mutation mutation
从某些基督徒攻击进化论的行为看其信仰的虚妄 (原创)小仙鹤,sequential mutation搞定了没?
基版名基名言善恶与道德标准
l**********t
发帖数: 5754
51
what evidence does it take for you to believe in randomness? NONE --anything
unknown/uncertain is classified as "randomness" by default and you won't
blink an eye to think twice whether this is just a faith.
Also, for those not in the bio-science, anything you read in the textbook/
popluar science book on "evolutioni" would be taken for granted with faith.
Faith is the fundation of religious beleif as skeptism to Science.

【在 w*********r 的大作中提到】
: it is not so much the difference in views of the world
: it is more about the ways how you get to it
: it is evidence-based, self-adjusting scientific methodology
: VS
: unchallengeable, dogmatic religious blind faith
: you also mentioned evidence a lot
: let me ask you a question from E's previous post:
: what evidence does it take for you to not believe in god?
: just give me a straight answer, is there any?
: now you know what religious dogma is...

l**********t
发帖数: 5754
52

God creates the universe including all the laws if proven -- I certainly
acknowledge them.
些是你的原创见解,可以颠覆达尔文,只是生物学家压制你不认可你的见解?
then how do you think about Francis Collins's comments on "evolution theory"?
thanks for acknowleding this fact.
"有效" is a subjective term.

【在 D*****r 的大作中提到】
: 你说是faith就可以公开否认科学界的结论了?不要再自己骗自己了,你的这些分析有
: 生物学的教材和论文支持么?还是说你觉得这些是你的原创见解,可以颠覆达尔文,只
: 是生物学家压制你不认可你的见解?
: 已经发生的事情没有办法重复,但依然可以根据现有的证据和机制,来得到有效结论。
: 你却是声称一些子虚乌有的东西,而且拒绝提供证据,以信仰为借口,反攻科学的理论。
: 小仙鹤,look at yourself,I know Jesus saved you,but look at what
: christianity has done to you.
:
: sequence
: unique

J*****3
发帖数: 4298
53
你还会讲证据,LOL
很多证据,化石证据,分子生物学证据,胚胎/遗传都支持进化,而且和你的那个GOD没
有关系
你也找个证据ZKSS你的GOD怎么创造的,当然圣经也可以,比如明确地记载了蚂蚱4条腿
,会讲话的蛇(这个先进)。。。还有,你继续补充

anything

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: what evidence does it take for you to believe in randomness? NONE --anything
: unknown/uncertain is classified as "randomness" by default and you won't
: blink an eye to think twice whether this is just a faith.
: Also, for those not in the bio-science, anything you read in the textbook/
: popluar science book on "evolutioni" would be taken for granted with faith.
: Faith is the fundation of religious beleif as skeptism to Science.

J*****3
发帖数: 4298
54
这个物种存在过吗?怎么没上船,你解释下
为什么蛇原来会讲话,现在不讲话不吃土了,证据呢
笑死我了,你也会讲证据

theory"?

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: God creates the universe including all the laws if proven -- I certainly
: acknowledge them.
: 些是你的原创见解,可以颠覆达尔文,只是生物学家压制你不认可你的见解?
: then how do you think about Francis Collins's comments on "evolution theory"?
: thanks for acknowleding this fact.
: "有效" is a subjective term.

J*****3
发帖数: 4298
55
基督教不是从来都教人不要怀疑,信了再说,还需要讲证据吗

theory"?

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: God creates the universe including all the laws if proven -- I certainly
: acknowledge them.
: 些是你的原创见解,可以颠覆达尔文,只是生物学家压制你不认可你的见解?
: then how do you think about Francis Collins's comments on "evolution theory"?
: thanks for acknowleding this fact.
: "有效" is a subjective term.

J*****3
发帖数: 4298
56
小仙,回家吃饭了

theory"?

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: God creates the universe including all the laws if proven -- I certainly
: acknowledge them.
: 些是你的原创见解,可以颠覆达尔文,只是生物学家压制你不认可你的见解?
: then how do you think about Francis Collins's comments on "evolution theory"?
: thanks for acknowleding this fact.
: "有效" is a subjective term.

D*****r
发帖数: 6791
57
Francis Collins把进化归因于“random/unguided”natural processes,跟我认为的
一样啊。

theory"?

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: God creates the universe including all the laws if proven -- I certainly
: acknowledge them.
: 些是你的原创见解,可以颠覆达尔文,只是生物学家压制你不认可你的见解?
: then how do you think about Francis Collins's comments on "evolution theory"?
: thanks for acknowleding this fact.
: "有效" is a subjective term.

a***g
发帖数: 2402
58
我其实有个疑问,我们真的能在实验室里重复生物(主要是动物)进化的过程吗?我觉
得够呛。先不考虑时间的因素,单说突变和选择。虽然我们可以有意的去选择某些突变
,但突变的发生是随机的,特别是如果要使某一形状稳定下来需要多个突变组合起来才
能发生,这种组合突变发生的概率可能非常非常低,几乎是不可重复的,那也就是说我
们永远无法在实验室里重复例如猿-〉人的过程。不知道我想得对不对,望指正。

【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: 以我的了解, mutation 是不是 true random 根本不是那麼重要, 我們
: 甚至可以説就是神在操縱 mutation,littletshirt 以前同意 natural selection
: 確實發生, 這樣的話就是神導進化, 但也是同意進化, 但是説 littletshirt
: 像 Collins 一樣是支持神導進化她又不同意了, 怎麼問也問不出為什麼不同意,
: 連她到底認不認為一個物種會演化成另一個她都不肯說, 問她承認不承認
: 人和其他物種是同祖先, 她要糾纏『同祖先』是什麼意思(到底有啥可能能誤會
: 同祖先的意思???),就是不肯回答。
: 小島等真正生物高手上來給她講過她錯在哪裡,不果她根本不看。 所以跟她談
: 進化論都是白忙,她根本沒有誠心講自己的看法,只是來糾纏
: mutation/random 這兩個詞而已。

l**********t
发帖数: 5754
59
First, I'm only pointing out the "random/spantenous" ASSUMPTION underlying "
evolution theory" is the center of debate of FAITH (deterministic view) vs.
ASSUMPTION (random view).
Secondly, this is the "TrustInJesus" forum -- THE forum to discuss Christian
faith. If you don't like it here, feel free to move all the "evolution
theory" discussion to the Biology forum.

【在 D*****r 的大作中提到】
: Francis Collins把进化归因于“random/unguided”natural processes,跟我认为的
: 一样啊。
:
: theory"?

E*****m
发帖数: 25615
60

沒錯,這個不能重複,不過這並不代表這不是科學理論。

【在 a***g 的大作中提到】
: 我其实有个疑问,我们真的能在实验室里重复生物(主要是动物)进化的过程吗?我觉
: 得够呛。先不考虑时间的因素,单说突变和选择。虽然我们可以有意的去选择某些突变
: ,但突变的发生是随机的,特别是如果要使某一形状稳定下来需要多个突变组合起来才
: 能发生,这种组合突变发生的概率可能非常非常低,几乎是不可重复的,那也就是说我
: 们永远无法在实验室里重复例如猿-〉人的过程。不知道我想得对不对,望指正。

相关主题
If evolution is real then why are there still monkeys?宗教就像萤火虫,得在黑暗里才能闪耀
Can Evolution Explain Our Origins?Atheists' Circular Reasoning
Atheist professor destroys evolution搞笑的是基督徒总说神赐的免费礼物
E*****m
发帖数: 25615
61
沒仔細看回貼,這個問出來了嗎?
哪位問得出她到底同不同意物種間會演化(不管變異是否隨機),
如果不同意,為什麼有變異有自然選擇還是不會演化,
如果我送十個包子, 另外加送十個給 littletshirt。
J*****3
发帖数: 4298
62
当然没有了,她要能回答,我就当神了

【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: 沒仔細看回貼,這個問出來了嗎?
: 哪位問得出她到底同不同意物種間會演化(不管變異是否隨機),
: 如果不同意,為什麼有變異有自然選擇還是不會演化,
: 如果我送十個包子, 另外加送十個給 littletshirt。

E*****m
发帖数: 25615
63

她不知道是真沒看法還是怎樣,就是不說,
這種沒意義的牽扯已經重複過很多次了,我都煩了。

【在 J*****3 的大作中提到】
: 当然没有了,她要能回答,我就当神了
J*****3
发帖数: 4298
64
我已经提出了关于关于圣经与信仰的问题,请你回答我提的关于圣经的问题
还有,TrustInJesus" forum,怎么了,公共版,你要歌功颂德去BIBLESTUDY,这里言
论自由,我,本肥猫还会继续贴进化论科普
大洪水后,动物怎么分布到世界各地的,这个是你的兄弟姐妹给的答案,你的解释呢
“It is possible that volcanoes in the Mount Ararat region were able to
transport the smaller animals over much greater distances than the animals
could get just by walking.[Biblical Citation Needed]”
http://www.conservapedia.com/Post-Diluvian_Diasporas#Volcanoes

"
.
Christian

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: First, I'm only pointing out the "random/spantenous" ASSUMPTION underlying "
: evolution theory" is the center of debate of FAITH (deterministic view) vs.
: ASSUMPTION (random view).
: Secondly, this is the "TrustInJesus" forum -- THE forum to discuss Christian
: faith. If you don't like it here, feel free to move all the "evolution
: theory" discussion to the Biology forum.

l*****a
发帖数: 38403
65
我是一直觉得很奇怪,你既然号称你学的东西(不知道你到底学的什么,因为你一向回
避这个问题)就是神向你们指明他伟大成绩的光明大路,你为啥要放弃这个呢?

"
.
Christian

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: First, I'm only pointing out the "random/spantenous" ASSUMPTION underlying "
: evolution theory" is the center of debate of FAITH (deterministic view) vs.
: ASSUMPTION (random view).
: Secondly, this is the "TrustInJesus" forum -- THE forum to discuss Christian
: faith. If you don't like it here, feel free to move all the "evolution
: theory" discussion to the Biology forum.

J*****3
发帖数: 4298
66
所以,根本就不要理她,或者直接不看她的东西,随便逗她玩玩就完了,跟她讲道理,
就是浪费时间。她要能相信证据,母猪都能上树

【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
:
: 她不知道是真沒看法還是怎樣,就是不說,
: 這種沒意義的牽扯已經重複過很多次了,我都煩了。

D*****r
发帖数: 6791
67
你所说的信仰,仍然是一种假设,假设一个无所不能的神,存在。你有证据支持这个假
设么?
我就是在讨论基督教信仰啊,算起来是讨论圣经第一章创世纪的一个分支。这个基督信
仰版面就是用来讨论“有人信仰基督教”这个现象的。

"
.
Christian

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: First, I'm only pointing out the "random/spantenous" ASSUMPTION underlying "
: evolution theory" is the center of debate of FAITH (deterministic view) vs.
: ASSUMPTION (random view).
: Secondly, this is the "TrustInJesus" forum -- THE forum to discuss Christian
: faith. If you don't like it here, feel free to move all the "evolution
: theory" discussion to the Biology forum.

J*****3
发帖数: 4298
68
你,小仙,现在就是基督教的刽子手,你故意的不回答我提的很多关于圣经上的问题,
一味地纠正在进化论里,你就是卧底,让大家有更多的机会了解进化论。
请回到圣经的问题上,蛇为什么以前吃土讲话,现在不吃土不讲话了

"
.
Christian

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: First, I'm only pointing out the "random/spantenous" ASSUMPTION underlying "
: evolution theory" is the center of debate of FAITH (deterministic view) vs.
: ASSUMPTION (random view).
: Secondly, this is the "TrustInJesus" forum -- THE forum to discuss Christian
: faith. If you don't like it here, feel free to move all the "evolution
: theory" discussion to the Biology forum.

s*y
发帖数: 933
69
This is a really bad analogy/example for Christianity's claim of an all-
mighty God.
We see the evolution of different car models, from primitive to better and
better ones, precisely because we, humans, are not all-known and all-capable
. If we are all-known and all-capable, we would know the perfect design for
the car and successfully build it on the first try.
Your example here suggests your god is not all-known or all-capable. Thus
he has to resort to the same process/cycle we imperfect humans use: design -
> manufacture -> test -> better design -> better manufacturing -> more
testing, the cycle continues. Perhaps you should use another example or
analogy.

marketing
Now

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: First, I'm only pointing out the "random/spantenous" ASSUMPTION underlying "
: evolution theory" is the center of debate of FAITH (deterministic view) vs.
: ASSUMPTION (random view).
: Secondly, this is the "TrustInJesus" forum -- THE forum to discuss Christian
: faith. If you don't like it here, feel free to move all the "evolution
: theory" discussion to the Biology forum.

J*****3
发帖数: 4298
70
设计车,你可以从头开始,全新设计;
设计物种,比如哺乳动物的设计,还是在爬行动物的蓝图上,在原来的模型上继续改造
的。
她就是来纠缠MUTATION/RANDOM来的每次都这点东西,JWJWJE,没完没了,从来不能正面
回答问题
问她人是其他物种演化来的吗,不回答
问题圣经问题蛇为什么不吃土不讲话了,也不回答
她就是个卧底,为了给班上更多人普及进化论知识准备的,感谢神

capable
for
-

【在 s*y 的大作中提到】
: This is a really bad analogy/example for Christianity's claim of an all-
: mighty God.
: We see the evolution of different car models, from primitive to better and
: better ones, precisely because we, humans, are not all-known and all-capable
: . If we are all-known and all-capable, we would know the perfect design for
: the car and successfully build it on the first try.
: Your example here suggests your god is not all-known or all-capable. Thus
: he has to resort to the same process/cycle we imperfect humans use: design -
: > manufacture -> test -> better design -> better manufacturing -> more
: testing, the cycle continues. Perhaps you should use another example or

相关主题
搞笑的是基督徒总说神赐的免费礼物littletshirt 的惡意謊言
Spontaneous 的定义基督徒的潛規則(三 ) 絕不直接回答問題
進化論的隨機因素 (給神創論者掃盲)行,就說一下 Spontaneous mutation
E*****m
发帖数: 25615
71
小仙鶴有直接回答物種到底有沒有演化的時候,請通知我一下,我來發包子,
否則看這些老問題有點沒意思了。
w*********r
发帖数: 3382
72
that is so wrong
we do not believe BLINDLY in randomness, we believe so because so far the phenomenon appeared so, if one day more solid evidence showing the opposite, we are glad to adjust and move on. CAN YOU SAY THE SAME TO WHAT YOU BELIEVE?
the most pathetic thing about your belief system is that, while science is busy proving or disproving things, you are staying PUT where you were 2000 years ago, your faith isn't going ANYWHERE as it is confined in the that little book of yours.

anything

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: what evidence does it take for you to believe in randomness? NONE --anything
: unknown/uncertain is classified as "randomness" by default and you won't
: blink an eye to think twice whether this is just a faith.
: Also, for those not in the bio-science, anything you read in the textbook/
: popluar science book on "evolutioni" would be taken for granted with faith.
: Faith is the fundation of religious beleif as skeptism to Science.

l**********t
发帖数: 5754
73

it is so wrong to equal faith to science because they serve different
purpose and answer (for human) different questions. But they share common
ground (call it faith/belief/ or assumption).
where you were 2000 years ago, your faith isn't going ANYWHERE
OK, I cherish things that are eternal and of absolute truth and I can share
with my kids and grandkids, and you appreciate things that are ever
changning, temporal and of relative truth and changes every decade (as far
as the biological text book goes, every year). It is just personal
preferences so enjoy what you like.

【在 w*********r 的大作中提到】
: that is so wrong
: we do not believe BLINDLY in randomness, we believe so because so far the phenomenon appeared so, if one day more solid evidence showing the opposite, we are glad to adjust and move on. CAN YOU SAY THE SAME TO WHAT YOU BELIEVE?
: the most pathetic thing about your belief system is that, while science is busy proving or disproving things, you are staying PUT where you were 2000 years ago, your faith isn't going ANYWHERE as it is confined in the that little book of yours.
:
: anything

l**********t
发帖数: 5754
74

someone post this Francis Collins comments earlier of which I agree with:
"And because God is outside of space and time, He knew what the outcome was
going to be right at the beginning. It's not as if there was a chance it
wouldn't work. So where, then, is the discordancy that causes so many people
to see these views of science and of spirit as being incompatible?"
how do you interpret "He(God) knew what the outcome was going to be right at
the beginning. It's not as if there was a chance it wouldn't work."?

【在 D*****r 的大作中提到】
: Francis Collins把进化归因于“random/unguided”natural processes,跟我认为的
: 一样啊。
:
: theory"?

l**********t
发帖数: 5754
75
come on -- the "evolution theory"'s 演化 is based on 隨機變異 assumption, of
which I diagree.

【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: 沒仔細看回貼,這個問出來了嗎?
: 哪位問得出她到底同不同意物種間會演化(不管變異是否隨機),
: 如果不同意,為什麼有變異有自然選擇還是不會演化,
: 如果我送十個包子, 另外加送十個給 littletshirt。

w*********r
发帖数: 3382
76
again it is not the views themselves, it is the ways to get there, but
anyway... it is a waste of my time...
"eternal and of absolute truth" is just a nice way of saying "i cheated my
mind and i am glad i did"

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: come on -- the "evolution theory"'s 演化 is based on 隨機變異 assumption, of
: which I diagree.

J*****3
发帖数: 4298
77
absolute truth,绝对真理,可惜啊,全世界2/3的人不承认唉。
这些是绝对真理吗?
利未记 11:21
但在所有有翅膀、四足爬行的生物中,如果有足有腿,能在地上蹦跳的,你们都可以吃。
22
在昆虫中,你们可以吃这些:蝗虫类、蚂蚱类、蟋蟀类和蚱蜢类。
小孩不听话怎么办,耶和华说把他砸死
若有頑梗悖逆的兒子、不聽從父母的話,父母就要抓住他,帶到城門,眾人就
要用石頭將他打死 ~申命記 21
不要稱呼地上的人為父.因為只有一位是你們的父、就是在天上的父。
~馬太福音 23:9
若有男子遇見沒有許配人的處女、抓住她與她行淫、被人看見、這男子就要拿五十舍客
勒銀子、給女子的父親、因他玷污了這女子、就要娶她為妻、終身不可休她。
~申命記 22:28-29
如果是你的个人选择,我支持,撒花,圣经嘛,断章取义,各取所需,但是你不要总是
循环在MUTATION/RANDOM里,多回答下圣经问题

share

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: come on -- the "evolution theory"'s 演化 is based on 隨機變異 assumption, of
: which I diagree.

E*****m
发帖数: 25615
78

of
I'm asking these -- for whatever assumptions you take or reject,
1. Do you think one specie can evolve to another or not?
2. Do you think human and other apes (and all living things) have biological
common ancestor?

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: come on -- the "evolution theory"'s 演化 is based on 隨機變異 assumption, of
: which I diagree.

J*****3
发帖数: 4298
79
人类是由其他物种演化来的吗?是/不是,简单答案

of

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: come on -- the "evolution theory"'s 演化 is based on 隨機變異 assumption, of
: which I diagree.

D*****r
发帖数: 6791
80
你引用的这一段之前,他说
If God chose to create you and me as natural and spiritual beings, and
decided to use the mechanism of evolution to accomplish that goal, I think
that's incredibly elegant.
这么说你认可神是用'mechanism of evolution'来造人了?

为的
was
people
at

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: come on -- the "evolution theory"'s 演化 is based on 隨機變異 assumption, of
: which I diagree.

相关主题
請問littletshirt 讀的是哪本進化論?从某些基督徒攻击进化论的行为看其信仰的虚妄 (原创)
(回顧)最后警告: Eloihim网友,请即刻修改你的昵称基版名基名言
对基督徒的一点建议mutation mutation
D*****r
发帖数: 6791
81
他说的这是后验的上帝,比如你撒一把沙子到地上,撒之前说上帝知道最后沙子在地上
的分布。这并不妨碍沙子在下落过程中和在地上的随机碰撞
这个只是因为他把上帝定义成这样一个预知未来的全能个体,他并没有否认进化的机制。

was
people
at

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: come on -- the "evolution theory"'s 演化 is based on 隨機變異 assumption, of
: which I diagree.

C*****e
发帖数: 367
82
你们整天讨论的是什么啊?

吃。

【在 J*****3 的大作中提到】
: absolute truth,绝对真理,可惜啊,全世界2/3的人不承认唉。
: 这些是绝对真理吗?
: 利未记 11:21
: 但在所有有翅膀、四足爬行的生物中,如果有足有腿,能在地上蹦跳的,你们都可以吃。
: 22
: 在昆虫中,你们可以吃这些:蝗虫类、蚂蚱类、蟋蟀类和蚱蜢类。
: 小孩不听话怎么办,耶和华说把他砸死
: 若有頑梗悖逆的兒子、不聽從父母的話,父母就要抓住他,帶到城門,眾人就
: 要用石頭將他打死 ~申命記 21
: 不要稱呼地上的人為父.因為只有一位是你們的父、就是在天上的父。

J*****3
发帖数: 4298
83
圣经真理,你不读圣经吗?
我读圣经看到的,小仙非常喜欢讨论MUTATION/RANDOM,她的目的是让大家更进一步了
解进化论,我尽量让她HOLD住,讨论下圣经

【在 C*****e 的大作中提到】
: 你们整天讨论的是什么啊?
:
: 吃。

C*****e
发帖数: 367
84
小仙是谁?进化论不懂
你读圣经要抓住重点

【在 J*****3 的大作中提到】
: 圣经真理,你不读圣经吗?
: 我读圣经看到的,小仙非常喜欢讨论MUTATION/RANDOM,她的目的是让大家更进一步了
: 解进化论,我尽量让她HOLD住,讨论下圣经

J*****3
发帖数: 4298
85
LITTLESHIRT小仙鹤,你指点下,重点在哪里,我怎么老能看到把他砸死/打死之类的

【在 C*****e 的大作中提到】
: 小仙是谁?进化论不懂
: 你读圣经要抓住重点

C*****e
发帖数: 367
86
因为我不是研究进化论的,所以这方面不懂,没资格指点。
圣经的重点,就在基督,就是福音。
圣经中一切的律法和先知的总纲,就是爱,爱神和爱人如己。

【在 J*****3 的大作中提到】
: LITTLESHIRT小仙鹤,你指点下,重点在哪里,我怎么老能看到把他砸死/打死之类的
J*****3
发帖数: 4298
87
知道了,感谢指点,我也不研究进化论,但是科普/基本常识还是需要的

【在 C*****e 的大作中提到】
: 因为我不是研究进化论的,所以这方面不懂,没资格指点。
: 圣经的重点,就在基督,就是福音。
: 圣经中一切的律法和先知的总纲,就是爱,爱神和爱人如己。

C*****e
发帖数: 367
88
进化论部分的“科普/常识”跟圣经教训不一致,可见是错误的

【在 J*****3 的大作中提到】
: 知道了,感谢指点,我也不研究进化论,但是科普/基本常识还是需要的
J*****3
发帖数: 4298
89
LOL 你连基本常识都没有,就别谈进化了
你不捍卫真理,和你的黑龙兄弟一样解释下4条腿的蚂蚱吗

【在 C*****e 的大作中提到】
: 进化论部分的“科普/常识”跟圣经教训不一致,可见是错误的
C*****e
发帖数: 367
90
不知道什么4条腿的蚂蚱

【在 J*****3 的大作中提到】
: LOL 你连基本常识都没有,就别谈进化了
: 你不捍卫真理,和你的黑龙兄弟一样解释下4条腿的蚂蚱吗

相关主题
小仙鹤,sequential mutation搞定了没?Can Evolution Explain Our Origins?
善恶与道德标准Atheist professor destroys evolution
If evolution is real then why are there still monkeys?宗教就像萤火虫,得在黑暗里才能闪耀
J*****3
发帖数: 4298
91
http://www.mitbbs.com/article_t/TrustInJesus/762659.html
利未记 11:21
但在所有有翅膀、四足爬行的生物中,如果有足有腿,能在地上蹦跳的,你们都可以吃。
22
在昆虫中,你们可以吃这些:蝗虫类、蚂蚱类、蟋蟀类和蚱蜢类。
圣经上的啊,怎么连圣经都不读,就出来论断人嘛,这个也是耶稣教你的

【在 C*****e 的大作中提到】
: 不知道什么4条腿的蚂蚱
C*****e
发帖数: 367
92
原来你是女的啊

吃。

【在 J*****3 的大作中提到】
: http://www.mitbbs.com/article_t/TrustInJesus/762659.html
: 利未记 11:21
: 但在所有有翅膀、四足爬行的生物中,如果有足有腿,能在地上蹦跳的,你们都可以吃。
: 22
: 在昆虫中,你们可以吃这些:蝗虫类、蚂蚱类、蟋蟀类和蚱蜢类。
: 圣经上的啊,怎么连圣经都不读,就出来论断人嘛,这个也是耶稣教你的

J*****3
发帖数: 4298
93
奇怪,我从来没说我是男人,女的怎么了,按照圣经,我不该在公共版面发帖,要蒙头
,要不会被砸死

【在 C*****e 的大作中提到】
: 原来你是女的啊
:
: 吃。

C*****e
发帖数: 367
94
利 11:20 “凡有翅膀用四足爬行的物,你们都当以为可憎。 利 11:21 只是有翅膀用
四足爬行的物中,有足有腿,在地上蹦跳的,你们还可以吃。 利 11:22 其中有蝗虫、
蚂蚱、蟋蟀与其类;蚱蜢与其类;这些你们都可以吃。 利 11:23 但是有翅膀有四足的
爬物,你们都当以为可憎。 利 11:24 “这些都能使你们不洁净。凡摸了死的,必不洁
净到晚上;
你说的是这段?挺有意思,不过这些洁净的条例已经被耶稣基督的宝血成全了
在基督里大家都是洁净的了

【在 J*****3 的大作中提到】
: 奇怪,我从来没说我是男人,女的怎么了,按照圣经,我不该在公共版面发帖,要蒙头
: ,要不会被砸死

J*****3
发帖数: 4298
95
你看不懂我的问题吗,真的假的
蚂蚱怎么是4条腿的?

【在 C*****e 的大作中提到】
: 利 11:20 “凡有翅膀用四足爬行的物,你们都当以为可憎。 利 11:21 只是有翅膀用
: 四足爬行的物中,有足有腿,在地上蹦跳的,你们还可以吃。 利 11:22 其中有蝗虫、
: 蚂蚱、蟋蟀与其类;蚱蜢与其类;这些你们都可以吃。 利 11:23 但是有翅膀有四足的
: 爬物,你们都当以为可憎。 利 11:24 “这些都能使你们不洁净。凡摸了死的,必不洁
: 净到晚上;
: 你说的是这段?挺有意思,不过这些洁净的条例已经被耶稣基督的宝血成全了
: 在基督里大家都是洁净的了

J*****3
发帖数: 4298
96
不好玩,不玩了
w*********r
发帖数: 3382
97
cc在CH3-OH
你就当没看见

【在 J*****3 的大作中提到】
: 不好玩,不玩了
l*****a
发帖数: 38403
98
洁净了还有“老我”可以犯罪,真是搞笑无极限

【在 C*****e 的大作中提到】
: 利 11:20 “凡有翅膀用四足爬行的物,你们都当以为可憎。 利 11:21 只是有翅膀用
: 四足爬行的物中,有足有腿,在地上蹦跳的,你们还可以吃。 利 11:22 其中有蝗虫、
: 蚂蚱、蟋蟀与其类;蚱蜢与其类;这些你们都可以吃。 利 11:23 但是有翅膀有四足的
: 爬物,你们都当以为可憎。 利 11:24 “这些都能使你们不洁净。凡摸了死的,必不洁
: 净到晚上;
: 你说的是这段?挺有意思,不过这些洁净的条例已经被耶稣基督的宝血成全了
: 在基督里大家都是洁净的了

G******e
发帖数: 9567
99
太学术了,会有人看不懂的

【在 w*********r 的大作中提到】
: cc在CH3-OH
: 你就当没看见

w*********r
发帖数: 3382
100
呵呵,我需要学会含蓄

【在 G******e 的大作中提到】
: 太学术了,会有人看不懂的
相关主题
Atheists' Circular Reasoning進化論的隨機因素 (給神創論者掃盲)
搞笑的是基督徒总说神赐的免费礼物littletshirt 的惡意謊言
Spontaneous 的定义基督徒的潛規則(三 ) 絕不直接回答問題
C*****e
发帖数: 367
101
我没看到那里说蚂蚱4条腿

【在 J*****3 的大作中提到】
: 你看不懂我的问题吗,真的假的
: 蚂蚱怎么是4条腿的?

J*****3
发帖数: 4298
102
利 11:21 只是有翅膀用四足爬行的物中,有足有腿,在地上蹦跳的,你们还可以吃。
利 11:22 其中有蝗虫、蚂蚱、蟋蟀与其类;蚱蜢与其类;这些你们都可以吃。
那你解释下4足底蝗虫?
不要再CH3-OH 了

【在 C*****e 的大作中提到】
: 我没看到那里说蚂蚱4条腿
J*****3
发帖数: 4298
103
http://www.mitbbs.com/article_t/TrustInJesus/762659.html
到这里捍卫真理吧

【在 C*****e 的大作中提到】
: 我没看到那里说蚂蚱4条腿
l**********t
发帖数: 5754
104

God creates all the species in steps/stages. New genetic information are
intentionally & deterministically introduced by God thru series of
genetic
variations. Does this fit your definition of "evolution"?
biological common ancestor?
God creates species using common building blocks and various species
share
these common blocks/features to various degree. Does this fit your
definition of "have biological common ancestor"?
Your answers to these 2 questions are my answers to your questions.
Also, please send me 十個包子 (what is for anyway?)

【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
:
: of
: I'm asking these -- for whatever assumptions you take or reject,
: 1. Do you think one specie can evolve to another or not?
: 2. Do you think human and other apes (and all living things) have biological
: common ancestor?

l**********t
发帖数: 5754
105

---后验的上帝? can you clarify since I'm not sure about this term. do you
mean posterior, or shall it be ex ante predictability?
子在下落过程中和在地上的随机碰撞
-- so you agree that something may seem random to you and me but can be
totally deterministic from God's perspective?
it is not his definition, it is THE definition from the Bible --预知未来的

能个体, because "time" doesn't mean anything to God because he exists
beyond
the constraints of space & time.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the
Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
ok..he only refutes the underlying assumption of "random mutation" by
making
that statement.

【在 D*****r 的大作中提到】
: 他说的这是后验的上帝,比如你撒一把沙子到地上,撒之前说上帝知道最后沙子在地上
: 的分布。这并不妨碍沙子在下落过程中和在地上的随机碰撞
: 这个只是因为他把上帝定义成这样一个预知未来的全能个体,他并没有否认进化的机制。
:
: was
: people
: at

E*****m
发帖数: 25615
106
你真的不知道 ”evolve" 和 "common ancestor" 是什麼意思嗎?
你真的就不能直接回答 yes/no 嗎?
濃縮成一個問題好了, 你相信很多代以前,你的生物祖先不是人類嗎?
請答先 yes/no , 你覺得有必要的話再說明。

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: ---后验的上帝? can you clarify since I'm not sure about this term. do you
: mean posterior, or shall it be ex ante predictability?
: 子在下落过程中和在地上的随机碰撞
: -- so you agree that something may seem random to you and me but can be
: totally deterministic from God's perspective?
: it is not his definition, it is THE definition from the Bible --预知未来的
: 全
: 能个体, because "time" doesn't mean anything to God because he exists
: beyond

l**********t
发帖数: 5754
107

Amen.

【在 C*****e 的大作中提到】
: 我没看到那里说蚂蚱4条腿
J*****3
发帖数: 4298
108
她这个MS就是智能设计的一种,我一直在努力读书,关于进化论的科普,看到某些智能
设计的人并不认为神的设计是完美的,跟她这个差不多

【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: 你真的不知道 ”evolve" 和 "common ancestor" 是什麼意思嗎?
: 你真的就不能直接回答 yes/no 嗎?
: 濃縮成一個問題好了, 你相信很多代以前,你的生物祖先不是人類嗎?
: 請答先 yes/no , 你覺得有必要的話再說明。

l**********t
发帖数: 5754
109

of course I know but the connotation of these words are abused by atheists
to imply creations of life thru random/spontaneous events so that atheists
can discredit God's role as the creator.
I have -- your answers to my 2 questions are my answers.

【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: 你真的不知道 ”evolve" 和 "common ancestor" 是什麼意思嗎?
: 你真的就不能直接回答 yes/no 嗎?
: 濃縮成一個問題好了, 你相信很多代以前,你的生物祖先不是人類嗎?
: 請答先 yes/no , 你覺得有必要的話再說明。

E*****m
发帖数: 25615
110

你要問她是不是這樣,她一定也不同意。

【在 J*****3 的大作中提到】
: 她这个MS就是智能设计的一种,我一直在努力读书,关于进化论的科普,看到某些智能
: 设计的人并不认为神的设计是完美的,跟她这个差不多

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行,就說一下 Spontaneous mutation对基督徒的一点建议
請問littletshirt 讀的是哪本進化論?从某些基督徒攻击进化论的行为看其信仰的虚妄 (原创)
J*****3
发帖数: 4298
111
我不问她呢,她做什么,撒花就好了,我才不浪费时间呢,现在看他们群殴OCK了,
HIAHIA

【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
:
: 你要問她是不是這樣,她一定也不同意。

E*****m
发帖数: 25615
112
發包子以前,最後確認一下, 你認為人不是由上帝以『現在形態』造出來,
是從猿類(或其他物種)演化而來,對不對?
當然我知道你主張上帝參與這過程,不必再說了。

atheists

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: of course I know but the connotation of these words are abused by atheists
: to imply creations of life thru random/spontaneous events so that atheists
: can discredit God's role as the creator.
: I have -- your answers to my 2 questions are my answers.

l**********t
发帖数: 5754
113
1. 人是由上帝以『現在形態』造出來 deterministically and intentionally.
2. How God create/achieve creation is subject to scientific research to
explore.
3. 人不是猿類(或其他物種)randomly and spontaneously "演化"而來. Highly
complex biological systems are from intelligent design.
4. Different species share common biological building materials/blocks, from
basicpolynucleotides to aa to guar/lipids, to similar gene encoding, to
high level structures in protein motifs and eventually phenotype.

【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: 發包子以前,最後確認一下, 你認為人不是由上帝以『現在形態』造出來,
: 是從猿類(或其他物種)演化而來,對不對?
: 當然我知道你主張上帝參與這過程,不必再說了。
:
: atheists

E*****m
发帖数: 25615
114
OK, 所以你完全否定演化會發生, 你認為不同物種都沒有共同生物祖先,
變異(不管什麼原因)會發生,自然選擇是有效的,但是還是不會有
macro-evolution, 是不是?

from

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: 1. 人是由上帝以『現在形態』造出來 deterministically and intentionally.
: 2. How God create/achieve creation is subject to scientific research to
: explore.
: 3. 人不是猿類(或其他物種)randomly and spontaneously "演化"而來. Highly
: complex biological systems are from intelligent design.
: 4. Different species share common biological building materials/blocks, from
: basicpolynucleotides to aa to guar/lipids, to similar gene encoding, to
: high level structures in protein motifs and eventually phenotype.

l**********t
发帖数: 5754
115
I believe 不同物種 share common design patterns & building blocks as I
stated before, as shown by scientific research (gene homology, phenotypes
similarities, etc). The differences are deliberately/deterministically
introduced by God with increasing complexity and order. How God achieves
creation is for science to explore (this is not limited to "evolution theory
" of species).

【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: OK, 所以你完全否定演化會發生, 你認為不同物種都沒有共同生物祖先,
: 變異(不管什麼原因)會發生,自然選擇是有效的,但是還是不會有
: macro-evolution, 是不是?
:
: from

E*****m
发帖数: 25615
116
所以我對你的理解沒錯,對吧?

theory

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: I believe 不同物種 share common design patterns & building blocks as I
: stated before, as shown by scientific research (gene homology, phenotypes
: similarities, etc). The differences are deliberately/deterministically
: introduced by God with increasing complexity and order. How God achieves
: creation is for science to explore (this is not limited to "evolution theory
: " of species).

l**********t
发帖数: 5754
117

I have answered the questions. Your interpretation is upto you and
irrelevant to the 10 BaoZi that you owe.

【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: 所以我對你的理解沒錯,對吧?
:
: theory

E*****m
发帖数: 25615
118
先給五個, 回答清楚再補上另五個。

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: I have answered the questions. Your interpretation is upto you and
: irrelevant to the 10 BaoZi that you owe.

l**********t
发帖数: 5754
119

Thanks.
which part is not clear?

【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: 先給五個, 回答清楚再補上另五個。
E*****m
发帖数: 25615
120

你完全否定演化會發生, 你認為不同物種都沒有共同生物祖先,
變異(不管什麼原因)會發生,自然選擇是有效的,但是還是不會有
macro-evolution, 是不是?
這是個是非題, 有任何一點錯就算錯, 你可以說明哪個部份我理解錯。

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: Thanks.
: which part is not clear?

相关主题
基版名基名言善恶与道德标准
mutation mutationIf evolution is real then why are there still monkeys?
小仙鹤,sequential mutation搞定了没?Can Evolution Explain Our Origins?
l**********t
发帖数: 5754
121

I have repeated too many time in previous posts--- sorry I have to repeat it
again:
It depends on how you interpret "evolve". If the root cause for these
changes are assumed intentional & deterministic, then yes.
If the root cause (原因) for changes are assumed spontaneous/random/unknown,
then NO.
How it happens (the mechanism as studied in biological science) is
irreverent to the debate. The conflict between Christian belief and "
evolution theory" is a conflict between faith and assumptions.

【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
:
: 你完全否定演化會發生, 你認為不同物種都沒有共同生物祖先,
: 變異(不管什麼原因)會發生,自然選擇是有效的,但是還是不會有
: macro-evolution, 是不是?
: 這是個是非題, 有任何一點錯就算錯, 你可以說明哪個部份我理解錯。

E*****m
发帖数: 25615
122
我不問你認為原因是什麼, 只問人類是不是從猿類以及更早的哺乳類進化來的,
也就是你的祖先追溯上去是不是可以追溯到不是人類的生物。

it
unknown,

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: I have repeated too many time in previous posts--- sorry I have to repeat it
: again:
: It depends on how you interpret "evolve". If the root cause for these
: changes are assumed intentional & deterministic, then yes.
: If the root cause (原因) for changes are assumed spontaneous/random/unknown,
: then NO.
: How it happens (the mechanism as studied in biological science) is
: irreverent to the debate. The conflict between Christian belief and "
: evolution theory" is a conflict between faith and assumptions.

l**********t
发帖数: 5754
123

please define 進化 in this context.
NO.

【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: 我不問你認為原因是什麼, 只問人類是不是從猿類以及更早的哺乳類進化來的,
: 也就是你的祖先追溯上去是不是可以追溯到不是人類的生物。
:
: it
: unknown,

E*****m
发帖数: 25615
124

As that defined in any evolutionary biology textbook.
那不就好了? 你相信會變異,會天擇,但是物種不會改,就這樣。

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: please define 進化 in this context.
: NO.

l**********t
发帖数: 5754
125

BaoZi?

【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
:
: As that defined in any evolutionary biology textbook.
: 那不就好了? 你相信會變異,會天擇,但是物種不會改,就這樣。

E*****m
发帖数: 25615
126
孢子已發。
多年懸案終於得解, 小仙鶴是徹底否認生物演化的。
s*y
发帖数: 933
127
我觉得littletshirt对生命和物种起源的观点是:除人之外的物种是神导进化论,而人
是神按圣经文字所说造出来的,不是演化形成的。

【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: 孢子已發。
: 多年懸案終於得解, 小仙鶴是徹底否認生物演化的。

E*****m
发帖数: 25615
128

不是,她否認任何物種間演化。

【在 s*y 的大作中提到】
: 我觉得littletshirt对生命和物种起源的观点是:除人之外的物种是神导进化论,而人
: 是神按圣经文字所说造出来的,不是演化形成的。

l**********t
发帖数: 5754
129

To clarify, I agree with Francis Collins' view. The disagreement between
you and me on "任何物種間演化" is who/what drives it.
I believe, as part of the creation process, God deliberately and
deterministically design bioactive molecules and new genes that encode
increasing complex proteins along with changing environments/habitats to
create various living creatures.
The texbook "evolution theory" assumes spontaneous mutations from unknown
causes (a.k.a "random").

【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
:
: 不是,她否認任何物種間演化。

l*****a
发帖数: 38403
130
癌症也是God deliberately and deterministically design的

【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: To clarify, I agree with Francis Collins' view. The disagreement between
: you and me on "任何物種間演化" is who/what drives it.
: I believe, as part of the creation process, God deliberately and
: deterministically design bioactive molecules and new genes that encode
: increasing complex proteins along with changing environments/habitats to
: create various living creatures.
: The texbook "evolution theory" assumes spontaneous mutations from unknown
: causes (a.k.a "random").

相关主题
Atheist professor destroys evolution搞笑的是基督徒总说神赐的免费礼物
宗教就像萤火虫,得在黑暗里才能闪耀Spontaneous 的定义
Atheists' Circular Reasoning進化論的隨機因素 (給神創論者掃盲)
h******d
发帖数: 1891
131
反击并堵门除了每天无聊的上网说些无聊的话,还能干点啥么?

【在 l*****a 的大作中提到】
: 癌症也是God deliberately and deterministically design的
E*****m
发帖数: 25615
132
頂上來給新同學看
1 (共1页)
相关主题
If evolution is real then why are there still monkeys?littletshirt 的惡意謊言
Can Evolution Explain Our Origins?基督徒的潛規則(三 ) 絕不直接回答問題
Atheist professor destroys evolution行,就說一下 Spontaneous mutation
宗教就像萤火虫,得在黑暗里才能闪耀請問littletshirt 讀的是哪本進化論?
Atheists' Circular Reasoning(回顧)最后警告: Eloihim网友,请即刻修改你的昵称
搞笑的是基督徒总说神赐的免费礼物对基督徒的一点建议
Spontaneous 的定义从某些基督徒攻击进化论的行为看其信仰的虚妄 (原创)
進化論的隨機因素 (給神創論者掃盲)基版名基名言
相关话题的讨论汇总
话题: god话题: mutation话题: random话题: evolution话题: spontaneous