E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 1 发表时间：2010-06-18
我一直問你到底我的暱稱到底是惹了誰， 你老是沒好好回答。
如果你認為是惹到你的神了，那你的神自會找我算帳，不勞你
出頭，對吧？ 除非你真的認為你的神癱了， 自己不幹事了，
要你來替天行道。
如果是惹到你本人了，那我們可以談談， 那你可不可
告訴我為什麼惹到你？ 你不是真神吧？ 我沒盜用你的招牌
吧?
我寫過一篇小文講這個, 應該也被你們刪了， 再貼一次
======================================================
這版上弟兄姊妹好像對人家褻瀆神很有意見，從對我的暱稱的反應
上可以看得出來。 這就聯繫到一篇我一直想寫但是一直沒時間寫的文章，
談褻瀆的意義。 我還是沒時間，不過我試試看把主要的想法寫出來。
911 事件發生後， 英國國教的坎特柏里大主教，實際的聖公教領導人
怪老頭Rowan Williams 寫了一篇很有意思的文章，他說真正的褻瀆神是在
自己的心中把神貶低，把神看成是無能的，認為神沒有能力保護自己，
然後在行動中把這種對神的貶低表現出來， 這當然是批評發動911 的
穆斯林，說他們心中的阿拉根本自己做不了什麼事，還要這些人發動
自殺攻擊來保護阿拉，我認為以一個 信徒 對另一個 信徒 的批評來說，
這可以算是一擊中的，那些極端穆斯林應該找不出什麼好回應的，不過
即使是這麼精彩的神學論述，對賓拉登之類的大概也沒作用。
如果你同意怪老頭的說法，那我們可以把這論點發揚光大，以信徒表現
出來的行為推測他心中的想法，看看他心中把神想成是怎樣的形象。
比方那些跳出來說我的暱稱褻瀆神的，你真的認為神需要你來告訴我嗎？
你真的認為神會對這種雞皮小事在意嗎？ 你真的認為一個創造整個宇宙
億萬星雲縱看百億年世界滄桑的全能造物主會在乎一個人在一個小論壇
的暱稱？ 真的嗎？ 如果你這麼想，你心中的神真的是很不堪。
再延伸想想， 那些想用教義強加在別人身上的 （反同性結婚，反進化論，
反社會世俗化的），你們真的認為如果這些是神想要的，他會需要你
這樣一個凡人來幫他做這些事嗎？
再延伸想想，你的神真的在乎你信不信他嗎？ 你認為他沒能力看出人是善
是惡，還要用信不信這種指標鑒別好人壞人？ 你真的相信你的神會設置
一個地獄永遠的BBQ 不信的人？ 你真的相信你的神會屠城殺嬰？
當然，這版上大部份主內弟兄姊妹都會說你是真的信， 對其他人說，從你
這些問題的答案上就可以描繪中你心中的神是怎樣的形象。
如果你神真的是全能至善的，你對神的那種不堪的描繪就是對神最大的褻瀆，
對比非基只能蒼白無力的說“神不存在”， 你對神是終極的褻瀆
提示: 本博文来自于 TrustInJesus 版 |
w*****r
发帖数: 7106 | 2 还有最后警告罗马尼亚的那篇谁还有没有?
当然, 从文字工夫来说, 最牛的还是警告变形虫那篇, 典型的文革经典. "猖狂"要放在那篇里面绝对算是相对褒义的词了.
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: 发表时间：2010-06-18
:
: 我一直問你到底我的暱稱到底是惹了誰， 你老是沒好好回答。
: 如果你認為是惹到你的神了，那你的神自會找我算帳，不勞你
: 出頭，對吧？ 除非你真的認為你的神癱了， 自己不幹事了，
: 要你來替天行道。
: 如果是惹到你本人了，那我們可以談談， 那你可不可
: 告訴我為什麼惹到你？ 你不是真神吧？ 我沒盜用你的招牌
: 吧?
: 我寫過一篇小文講這個, 應該也被你們刪了， 再貼一次
|
f***5
发帖数: 1569 | 3 有些点我赞成，有些不赞成
1.比方那些跳出來說我的暱稱褻瀆神的，你真的認為神需要你來告訴我嗎？
你真的認為神會對這種雞皮小事在意嗎？ 你真的認為一個創造整個宇宙
億萬星雲縱看百億年世界滄桑的全能造物主會在乎一個人在一個小論壇
的暱稱？ 真的嗎？ 如果你這麼想，你心中的神真的是很不堪。
同意，神不需要我们去审判谁
2.再延伸想想， 那些想用教義強加在別人身上的 （反同性結婚，反進化論，
反社會世俗化的），你們真的認為如果這些是神想要的，他會需要你
這樣一個凡人來幫他做這些事嗎？
不应该反同性結婚：同意
不应该反進化論：感觉神的存在和猴子便成人就是相反的，没办法不反对啊。
反社會世俗化的：没必要
3.再延伸想想，你的神真的在乎你信不信他嗎？ 你認為他沒能力看出人是善
是惡，還要用信不信這種指標鑒別好人壞人？ 你真的相信你的神會設置
一個地獄永遠的BBQ 不信的人？ 你真的相信你的神會屠城殺嬰？
不太同意，我觉得神还是在乎你信不信他的。我觉得神应该觉得多些人喜欢他知道他
的感觉会挺好。我觉得不信的人的损失是自己的损失。我为什么希望更多的人相信。
一方面神高兴，另一方面相信神后确实能得到精神上物质上的益处。我不是雷锋，
我谁也帮不了。但我希望大家都好，所以我希望大家能相信神。
。
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: 发表时间：2010-06-18
:
: 我一直問你到底我的暱稱到底是惹了誰， 你老是沒好好回答。
: 如果你認為是惹到你的神了，那你的神自會找我算帳，不勞你
: 出頭，對吧？ 除非你真的認為你的神癱了， 自己不幹事了，
: 要你來替天行道。
: 如果是惹到你本人了，那我們可以談談， 那你可不可
: 告訴我為什麼惹到你？ 你不是真神吧？ 我沒盜用你的招牌
: 吧?
: 我寫過一篇小文講這個, 應該也被你們刪了， 再貼一次
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 4 關於進化論，讓我們假設一下你的神存在，你覺得這神
會希望人忽視他佈置下的進化論證據嗎？還是會希望人去
相信一本傳抄無數次，有著無數錯誤的聖經？
【在 f***5 的大作中提到】
: 有些点我赞成，有些不赞成
: 1.比方那些跳出來說我的暱稱褻瀆神的，你真的認為神需要你來告訴我嗎？
: 你真的認為神會對這種雞皮小事在意嗎？ 你真的認為一個創造整個宇宙
: 億萬星雲縱看百億年世界滄桑的全能造物主會在乎一個人在一個小論壇
: 的暱稱？ 真的嗎？ 如果你這麼想，你心中的神真的是很不堪。
: 同意，神不需要我们去审判谁
: 2.再延伸想想， 那些想用教義強加在別人身上的 （反同性結婚，反進化論，
: 反社會世俗化的），你們真的認為如果這些是神想要的，他會需要你
: 這樣一個凡人來幫他做這些事嗎？
: 不应该反同性結婚：同意
|
b*******y
发帖数: 491 | |
D*****y
发帖数: 5788 | 6 是的，他曾号称自己是基督徒，后来离开了这个信仰。
【在 b*******y 的大作中提到】
: 审判在神，由他去吧
|
s***u
发帖数: 1911 | 7 两个大反基，E神和belief版的一个女艾迪，叫什么的
都是ex-christian
所以这里不要贴那种“曾经是信佛的，后来弃暗投明入了基督教”
鄙视别人信仰，最终被人鄙视
圣经里耶稣说过，don't judge, or you will be judged
【在 D*****y 的大作中提到】
: 是的，他曾号称自己是基督徒，后来离开了这个信仰。
|
f***5
发帖数: 1569 | 8 没太懂，可否重新叙述一下
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: 關於進化論，讓我們假設一下你的神存在，你覺得這神
: 會希望人忽視他佈置下的進化論證據嗎？還是會希望人去
: 相信一本傳抄無數次，有著無數錯誤的聖經？
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 9
No, the Creator wants the Creation to realize that everything in the
Universe is designed & created by Him.
Unfortunately the athesists would rather faithfully believe that their
existence are the consequences of a sequence of "random" events since the
Big Bang, than admitting their sin of not acknowledging their own Creator.
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: 關於進化論，讓我們假設一下你的神存在，你覺得這神
: 會希望人忽視他佈置下的進化論證據嗎？還是會希望人去
: 相信一本傳抄無數次，有著無數錯誤的聖經？
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 10 你相信神會在自然界啟示人嗎？
【在 f***5 的大作中提到】
: 没太懂，可否重新叙述一下
|
|
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 11 你就是神，才會這麼清楚神要什麼。
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: No, the Creator wants the Creation to realize that everything in the
: Universe is designed & created by Him.
: Unfortunately the athesists would rather faithfully believe that their
: existence are the consequences of a sequence of "random" events since the
: Big Bang, than admitting their sin of not acknowledging their own Creator.
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 12 Isaiah 45:18
For this is what the LORD says--he who created the heavens, he is God; he
who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be
empty, but formed it to be inhabited--he says: "I am the LORD, and there is
no other."
Deuteronomy 6:5
And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your
soul, and with all your might
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: 你就是神，才會這麼清楚神要什麼。
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 13 你再補充一個證據證明聖經是神的話，你的證明就算成立了。
be
is
your
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: Isaiah 45:18
: For this is what the LORD says--he who created the heavens, he is God; he
: who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be
: empty, but formed it to be inhabited--he says: "I am the LORD, and there is
: no other."
: Deuteronomy 6:5
: And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your
: soul, and with all your might
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 14 補充一下 Isaiah 45:18 是對以色列人講的，看前一節就知道了，你這是
斷章取義。
Deuteronomy 6:5也是，看一下前一節
6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
還是斷章取義。
be
is
your
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: Isaiah 45:18
: For this is what the LORD says--he who created the heavens, he is God; he
: who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be
: empty, but formed it to be inhabited--he says: "I am the LORD, and there is
: no other."
: Deuteronomy 6:5
: And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your
: soul, and with all your might
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 15
It is not a proof but an axiom. All things in the Universe (including math/
logic & all natrual laws) are created by the Creator, so He is beyond proof.
As to your belief in the "evolution theory" -- if you can prove that the
causes are truly "random", it would be a respectable "theory" instead of a
blind faith.
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: 你再補充一個證據證明聖經是神的話，你的證明就算成立了。
:
: be
: is
: your
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 16 are you really a ex-Christian? I doubt it.
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: 補充一下 Isaiah 45:18 是對以色列人講的，看前一節就知道了，你這是
: 斷章取義。
: Deuteronomy 6:5也是，看一下前一節
: 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
: 還是斷章取義。
:
: be
: is
: your
|
l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | 17 为啥？
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: are you really a ex-Christian? I doubt it.
|
l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | 18 教主姐姐丝巴蒂
【在 s***u 的大作中提到】
: 两个大反基，E神和belief版的一个女艾迪，叫什么的
: 都是ex-christian
: 所以这里不要贴那种“曾经是信佛的，后来弃暗投明入了基督教”
: 鄙视别人信仰，最终被人鄙视
: 圣经里耶稣说过，don't judge, or you will be judged
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 19 Having the ability to doubt is a good thing.
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: are you really a ex-Christian? I doubt it.
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 20 do you have any healthy skepticism on your belief in the "evolution theory" ?
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: Having the ability to doubt is a good thing.
|
|
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E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 21 After reading the books I listed before, not any more. for you
It would be nice if you can state what's your doubt on
evolution theory. But you would never tell, right?
" ?
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: do you have any healthy skepticism on your belief in the "evolution theory" ?
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 22
So you trust "evolution theory" as the ABSOLUTE/Eternal truth, solely based
on some books written by others -- where is the true spirit of scientific
research -- the healthy skeptism?
IMHO, no science are enteral absolute truth -- God will reveal gradually the
wonder of his Creation and our understanding of the universe ("Science")
will evolve.
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: After reading the books I listed before, not any more. for you
: It would be nice if you can state what's your doubt on
: evolution theory. But you would never tell, right?
:
: " ?
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 23
based
the
Let me put it this way. The degree I doubt evolution is about the
same as you doubt the earth is not flat.
What healthy skepticism do you have on earth's shape? Please do
tell us.
Could you make it more clear? You don't believe mutation is random,
or you don't believe there is any mutation?
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: So you trust "evolution theory" as the ABSOLUTE/Eternal truth, solely based
: on some books written by others -- where is the true spirit of scientific
: research -- the healthy skeptism?
: IMHO, no science are enteral absolute truth -- God will reveal gradually the
: wonder of his Creation and our understanding of the universe ("Science")
: will evolve.
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 24
Back in the days when almost everyone believed that earth is flat (and all
mainstream "science" books published said so), YOU are most likely to take "
earth is flat" as the truth because YOUR "knowledge" are drawn from these
books that you read (just as your knowledge about evolution theory are read from a few books. Have you ever done any natural science research of your own or published any natrual science original research in your life? If you do, you will appreciate how important the ASSUMPTIONS are).
I am skiptic to all "science" and only take them as "true" conditional on
our limited understanding of our universe. The only ABSOLUTE truth is God.
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
:
: based
: the
: Let me put it this way. The degree I doubt evolution is about the
: same as you doubt the earth is not flat.
: What healthy skepticism do you have on earth's shape? Please do
: tell us.
: Could you make it more clear? You don't believe mutation is random,
: or you don't believe there is any mutation?
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 25 make it more concrete. what's your healthy skepticism about
earth shape.
"
read from a few books. Have you ever done any natural science research of
your own or published any natrual science original research in your life? If
you do, you will appreciate how important the ASSUMPTIONS are).
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: Back in the days when almost everyone believed that earth is flat (and all
: mainstream "science" books published said so), YOU are most likely to take "
: earth is flat" as the truth because YOUR "knowledge" are drawn from these
: books that you read (just as your knowledge about evolution theory are read from a few books. Have you ever done any natural science research of your own or published any natrual science original research in your life? If you do, you will appreciate how important the ASSUMPTIONS are).
: I am skiptic to all "science" and only take them as "true" conditional on
: our limited understanding of our universe. The only ABSOLUTE truth is God.
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 26 so what's your concrete proof of the "evolution theory" for YOU other than
the books you have read (a.k.a someone told you so)?
For the shape-of-earth, it can be tested nowadays. Can you test "evoltuion
theory" -- repeating the evolution process in the lab?
If the "evolution theory"is not subject to the same level of rigrous testing
as the "earth-is-round", anyone with a heathly level of skeptism will NOT
hold them as the same level of "truth".
If
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: make it more concrete. what's your healthy skepticism about
: earth shape.
:
: "
: read from a few books. Have you ever done any natural science research of
: your own or published any natrual science original research in your life? If
: you do, you will appreciate how important the ASSUMPTIONS are).
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 27 How do you test earth's shape? And did you do it yourself?
BTW, you have too many typos. It's getting in the way.
evolution -- not evoltuion
rigorous -- not rigrous
healthy -- not healthly
skepticism -- not skeptism
install google toolbar, it helps.
testing
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: so what's your concrete proof of the "evolution theory" for YOU other than
: the books you have read (a.k.a someone told you so)?
: For the shape-of-earth, it can be tested nowadays. Can you test "evoltuion
: theory" -- repeating the evolution process in the lab?
: If the "evolution theory"is not subject to the same level of rigrous testing
: as the "earth-is-round", anyone with a heathly level of skeptism will NOT
: hold them as the same level of "truth".
:
: If
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l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 28 thanks for pointing out the typos and amazingly they had little impact on
your understanidng (I assume) -- you brain reprocessed waht your read based
on the context (what your brain believed to be "correct"). Is it amazing?
While your reading of the evidences listed for "evolution theory" confirm
your belief that no God exists, my reading of it (as well as other science
discoveries) confirm my belief that God is the Creator of the Universe.
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: How do you test earth's shape? And did you do it yourself?
: BTW, you have too many typos. It's getting in the way.
: evolution -- not evoltuion
: rigorous -- not rigrous
: healthy -- not healthly
: skepticism -- not skeptism
: install google toolbar, it helps.
:
: testing
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l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | 29 说了半天，实质性的东西从来选择回避，你信的好心虚啊
based
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: thanks for pointing out the typos and amazingly they had little impact on
: your understanidng (I assume) -- you brain reprocessed waht your read based
: on the context (what your brain believed to be "correct"). Is it amazing?
: While your reading of the evidences listed for "evolution theory" confirm
: your belief that no God exists, my reading of it (as well as other science
: discoveries) confirm my belief that God is the Creator of the Universe.
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 30 Let's try again.
How do you test earth's shape? And did you do it yourself?
based
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: thanks for pointing out the typos and amazingly they had little impact on
: your understanidng (I assume) -- you brain reprocessed waht your read based
: on the context (what your brain believed to be "correct"). Is it amazing?
: While your reading of the evidences listed for "evolution theory" confirm
: your belief that no God exists, my reading of it (as well as other science
: discoveries) confirm my belief that God is the Creator of the Universe.
|
|
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l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 31 don't evade the question about your belief that "evolution theory" is as
solid as "earth is round". The former can't be tested/repeated while the
latter can.
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: Let's try again.
: How do you test earth's shape? And did you do it yourself?
:
: based
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 32 Let's try again.
How do you test earth's shape? And did you do it yourself?
If I claim evolution can be tested but I refuse to tell you how,
would that count?
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: don't evade the question about your belief that "evolution theory" is as
: solid as "earth is round". The former can't be tested/repeated while the
: latter can.
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 33
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: Let's try again.
: How do you test earth's shape? And did you do it yourself?
: If I claim evolution can be tested but I refuse to tell you how,
: would that count?
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 34 Is there anything that's not belief to you?
a
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 35 any scientific theory that can be a) repeated and tested in controlled
environments and b) the theory can help to predict outcomes. for example,
the central dogam, the molecular mechanism of how certain phenotypes are
controlled by the interaction of groups of genes, etc. These can testsable/
provable or disprovable in controlled environment repeatively, and the
finding can be used to predict outcomes.
But the "evolution theory" fails on both fronts.
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: Is there anything that's not belief to you?
:
: a
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 36 Do you regard astronomy/astrophysics as science?
Do you think gravity works outside our solar system?
/
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: any scientific theory that can be a) repeated and tested in controlled
: environments and b) the theory can help to predict outcomes. for example,
: the central dogam, the molecular mechanism of how certain phenotypes are
: controlled by the interaction of groups of genes, etc. These can testsable/
: provable or disprovable in controlled environment repeatively, and the
: finding can be used to predict outcomes.
: But the "evolution theory" fails on both fronts.
|
t*******d
发帖数: 2570 | 37 Actually the evolution theory succeeded on both fronts you described.
/
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: any scientific theory that can be a) repeated and tested in controlled
: environments and b) the theory can help to predict outcomes. for example,
: the central dogam, the molecular mechanism of how certain phenotypes are
: controlled by the interaction of groups of genes, etc. These can testsable/
: provable or disprovable in controlled environment repeatively, and the
: finding can be used to predict outcomes.
: But the "evolution theory" fails on both fronts.
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 38 thanks. references please.
【在 t*******d 的大作中提到】
: Actually the evolution theory succeeded on both fronts you described.
:
: /
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 39 Those are not my major and I have no direct research experience in these
fields, so I default to whatever the scientific community says.
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: Do you regard astronomy/astrophysics as science?
: Do you think gravity works outside our solar system?
:
: /
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 40
你這態度基本是對的。可惜推翻了你前面講的。
按照你這說法，所有沒自己研究過進化論的（包括你）都該信進化論。
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: Those are not my major and I have no direct research experience in these
: fields, so I default to whatever the scientific community says.
|
|
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 41 I trust the evidences listed in "evolution theory" research, but I don't
believe its underlying assumptions. I certainly don't consider it as
rigorous as other biological theories that can be proved in the lab/via
experiments.
On the contrary, you treat it as solid as "earth-is-round" -- and this is
solely based on your reading of popular books. Let's be honest, the former
is a theory (thus subject to further research), and the latter is a "fact".
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
:
: 你這態度基本是對的。可惜推翻了你前面講的。
: 按照你這說法，所有沒自己研究過進化論的（包括你）都該信進化論。
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 42 Evolution is a fact and a theory. You probably want to find out
what the 2 words mean.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_as_theory_and_fact
.
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: I trust the evidences listed in "evolution theory" research, but I don't
: believe its underlying assumptions. I certainly don't consider it as
: rigorous as other biological theories that can be proved in the lab/via
: experiments.
: On the contrary, you treat it as solid as "earth-is-round" -- and this is
: solely based on your reading of popular books. Let's be honest, the former
: is a theory (thus subject to further research), and the latter is a "fact".
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 43 From the link you quoted, the "fact" part refers to the observations, not
the underlying assumptions -- which you take as absolute truth.
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: Evolution is a fact and a theory. You probably want to find out
: what the 2 words mean.
: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_as_theory_and_fact
:
: .
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 44
I've asked you many times, never got an answer.
You don't believe there is mutation, or you don't believe
mutation is random? Why is this so hard for you to answer?
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: From the link you quoted, the "fact" part refers to the observations, not
: the underlying assumptions -- which you take as absolute truth.
|
t*******d
发帖数: 2570 | 45 E. coli long-term evolution experiment.
http://myxo.css.msu.edu/ecoli/summdata.html
Experimental evolution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimental_evolution
Any reference to back up your claim that the evolution theory failed in the
two fronts you mentioned?
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: thanks. references please.
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 46 I have answered you many times. I don't believe in the "random" part -- all things have serve some purpose, including your presence at this forum.
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
:
: I've asked you many times, never got an answer.
: You don't believe there is mutation, or you don't believe
: mutation is random? Why is this so hard for you to answer?
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 47 ok, let's put randomness aside, let me ask you
1. do you believe there are (non-random, God command) mutations?
2. do you believe natural selection can cause speciation?
3. do you believe human share the same ancestor with other species?
For now, we can assume everything serve some purpose, as you said.
Can you answer the 3 questions?
all things have serve some purpose, including your presence at this forum.
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: I have answered you many times. I don't believe in the "random" part -- all things have serve some purpose, including your presence at this forum.
|
w*******e
发帖数: 6802 | 48 RE RE
【在 b*******y 的大作中提到】
: 审判在神，由他去吧
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 49 我真的很好奇littletshirt 到底反進化論什麼，
難道只有反隨機這一樣？
littletshirt上來時回答一下我這幾個問題吧
1. do you believe there are (non-random, God command) mutations?
2. do you believe natural selection can cause speciation?
3. do you believe human share the same ancestor with other species?
For now, we can assume everything serve some purpose, as you said.
Can you answer the 3 questions? |
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 50
....
why put it aside? IMHO, this is the most important difference between your
athesists' faith in "evolution theory" and my Christian belief and view on
science (including "evolution theory"). Why are you so reluctant to
acknowledge that the "evolution theory" is based on the "randomness"
assumption?
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: ok, let's put randomness aside, let me ask you
: 1. do you believe there are (non-random, God command) mutations?
: 2. do you believe natural selection can cause speciation?
: 3. do you believe human share the same ancestor with other species?
: For now, we can assume everything serve some purpose, as you said.
: Can you answer the 3 questions?
:
: all things have serve some purpose, including your presence at this forum.
|
|
|
G******e
发帖数: 9567 | 51 哈哈哈，Eloihim 又完败了。
your
on
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: ....
: why put it aside? IMHO, this is the most important difference between your
: athesists' faith in "evolution theory" and my Christian belief and view on
: science (including "evolution theory"). Why are you so reluctant to
: acknowledge that the "evolution theory" is based on the "randomness"
: assumption?
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 52 我不認為進化論需要變異是真正隨機的，至少我沒讀到過，你如果讀到過，
請問是哪一本書說的 （當然，這又是不會有答案的，原因你我都很清楚）
只要有變異，天擇就會把剩下的演化機制完成。
我認為真正與基督教教義衝突的是人類從其他物種演化而來。
你是不是認為你的上帝親自決定每一個骰子哪面朝上？to serve a purpose?
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: ....
: why put it aside? IMHO, this is the most important difference between your
: athesists' faith in "evolution theory" and my Christian belief and view on
: science (including "evolution theory"). Why are you so reluctant to
: acknowledge that the "evolution theory" is based on the "randomness"
: assumption?
|
t*******d
发帖数: 2570 | 53 Randomness is not an assumption of the evolution theory. Randomness is a
description of the fact after observation.
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: ....
: why put it aside? IMHO, this is the most important difference between your
: athesists' faith in "evolution theory" and my Christian belief and view on
: science (including "evolution theory"). Why are you so reluctant to
: acknowledge that the "evolution theory" is based on the "randomness"
: assumption?
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 54
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: 我不認為進化論需要變異是真正隨機的，至少我沒讀到過，你如果讀到過，
: 請問是哪一本書說的 （當然，這又是不會有答案的，原因你我都很清楚）
: 只要有變異，天擇就會把剩下的演化機制完成。
: 我認為真正與基督教教義衝突的是人類從其他物種演化而來。
: 你是不是認為你的上帝親自決定每一個骰子哪面朝上？to serve a purpose?
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 55 不是故意刁難你，真的看不懂你的立場，你可不可以回答這三個問題？
1. do you believe there are (non-random, God command) mutations?
2. do you believe natural selection can cause speciation?
3. do you believe human share the same ancestor with other species?
他
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
|
t*******d
发帖数: 2570 | 56 她的立场是神导进化论。
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: 不是故意刁難你，真的看不懂你的立場，你可不可以回答這三個問題？
: 1. do you believe there are (non-random, God command) mutations?
: 2. do you believe natural selection can cause speciation?
: 3. do you believe human share the same ancestor with other species?
:
: 他
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 57
well-said for yourself. can you please confirm your position once more,
because you seem to flip-flop again.
Based on your understanding of Darwin's evolution theory & natural science.
a) are variations/mutations occurred randomly in nature? Y/N
b) starting from the big bang, are the sequences of environments subject to
which natural selection applied occured by chance? Y/N
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: 不是故意刁難你，真的看不懂你的立場，你可不可以回答這三個問題？
: 1. do you believe there are (non-random, God command) mutations?
: 2. do you believe natural selection can cause speciation?
: 3. do you believe human share the same ancestor with other species?
:
: 他
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 58 please don't label me with xxx论 -- but if you have to, my position is 神导 everything in this Universe!
【在 t*******d 的大作中提到】
: 她的立场是神导进化论。
|
t*******d
发帖数: 2570 | 59 It is an observation, not a label and you agree with it.
导 everything in this Universe!
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: please don't label me with xxx论 -- but if you have to, my position is 神导 everything in this Universe!
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 60 I'm not familiar with "神导进化论" so I'm not in the position to agree or
disagree with it.
My assertion that God creates everyting in the Universe is based on my
understanding of the Bible.
【在 t*******d 的大作中提到】
: It is an observation, not a label and you agree with it.
:
: 导 everything in this Universe!
|
|
|
l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | 61 易有太极，是生两仪。两仪生四象，四象生八卦
你们那个不是道，是＂话＂，付道外道，
他
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: well-said for yourself. can you please confirm your position once more,
: because you seem to flip-flop again.
: Based on your understanding of Darwin's evolution theory & natural science.
: a) are variations/mutations occurred randomly in nature? Y/N
: b) starting from the big bang, are the sequences of environments subject to
: which natural selection applied occured by chance? Y/N
|
G******e
发帖数: 9567 | 62 Do you believe human share the same ancestor with other species?
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: I'm not familiar with "神导进化论" so I'm not in the position to agree or
: disagree with it.
: My assertion that God creates everyting in the Universe is based on my
: understanding of the Bible.
|
t*******d
发帖数: 2570 | 63 No problem, as a person who is familiar with “神导进化论”。 I am in a
position to tell you that your position is the same as the position of“神导
进化论”。It will help E神 understand.
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: I'm not familiar with "神导进化论" so I'm not in the position to agree or
: disagree with it.
: My assertion that God creates everyting in the Universe is based on my
: understanding of the Bible.
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 64
the English translation is "Word". The original Greek is "logos" which
means principle of order and knowledge.(correct me if I'm wrong since I don'
t know greek).
【在 l*****a 的大作中提到】
: 易有太极，是生两仪。两仪生四象，四象生八卦
: 你们那个不是道，是＂话＂，付道外道，
:
: 他
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 65 Thanks. I'd rather chat with someone familiar with "进化论".
BTW, what's your position on the 2 questions that E神 somehow can't give a straight answer.
【在 t*******d 的大作中提到】
: No problem, as a person who is familiar with “神导进化论”。 I am in a
: position to tell you that your position is the same as the position of“神导
: 进化论”。It will help E神 understand.
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 66 please define "share the same ancestor".
【在 G******e 的大作中提到】
: Do you believe human share the same ancestor with other species?
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 67
science.
yes, in the same that we can not predict any instance.
And evolution works even it's not random. So random or not,
is irrelevant.
to
Natural selection only works on organisms that can reproduce.
so I don't really get your question.
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: please define "share the same ancestor".
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 68 每次問個簡單問題都要上百貼, 還未必問得到答案.
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: please define "share the same ancestor".
|
G******e
发帖数: 9567 | 69 "Humans share a common ancestor with modern African apes, like gorillas
and chimpanzees, 5 to 8 million years ago. Shortly thereafter, the species
diverged into two separate lineages. One of these lineages ultimately
evolved into gorillas and chimps, and the other evolved into early human
ancestors called hominids. "
So, do you think humans share the same ancestors with other species?
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: please define "share the same ancestor".
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 70 我們從這裡開始, 看她要回幾貼才能回答相信或不相信。
【在 G******e 的大作中提到】
: "Humans share a common ancestor with modern African apes, like gorillas
: and chimpanzees, 5 to 8 million years ago. Shortly thereafter, the species
: diverged into two separate lineages. One of these lineages ultimately
: evolved into gorillas and chimps, and the other evolved into early human
: ancestors called hominids. "
: So, do you think humans share the same ancestors with other species?
|
|
|
t*******d
发帖数: 2570 | 71 E神 is pretty familiar with the evolution theory. However, he does not know
if you are familiar with the evolution theory. In his effort to dumb down
his explanation of the evolution theory, some words may become less precise.
As to the 2 questions, the answer is Y and Y until proven otherwise.
straight answer.
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: Thanks. I'd rather chat with someone familiar with "进化论".
: BTW, what's your position on the 2 questions that E神 somehow can't give a straight answer.
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 72 神導進化論必須相信 common descent, 她還在扭扭捏捏不肯
明講, 我們也不能下斷語她真的信神導進化論。
littletshirt, 參看一下這個
http://www.oc.org/big5_txt/oc5834.htm
【在 t*******d 的大作中提到】
: No problem, as a person who is familiar with “神导进化论”。 I am in a
: position to tell you that your position is the same as the position of“神导
: 进化论”。It will help E神 understand.
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 73 thanks for clarifying your postion on the first question.
here is the 2nd one:
b) are the states/environments in which natural selection occurs random? Y/N
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: 神導進化論必須相信 common descent, 她還在扭扭捏捏不肯
: 明講, 我們也不能下斷語她真的信神導進化論。
: littletshirt, 參看一下這個
: http://www.oc.org/big5_txt/oc5834.htm
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 74 thanks. as I said before, I only place my absolute faith on Bible,
definitely not on some controversial "theory" that evolves as we
learn more about God's creation.
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: 神導進化論必須相信 common descent, 她還在扭扭捏捏不肯
: 明講, 我們也不能下斷語她真的信神導進化論。
: littletshirt, 參看一下這個
: http://www.oc.org/big5_txt/oc5834.htm
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 75
/N
Yes, random in the sense no one (ok, natural beings) can predict.
Again, even it's not random, evolution works. Evolution does not
need the environments to be random. Actually, evolution works
even better when the environment is controlled(by human, for example).
That's why I don't understand why you think random or not is a
problem. It's pretty irrelevant.
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: thanks for clarifying your postion on the first question.
: here is the 2nd one:
: b) are the states/environments in which natural selection occurs random? Y/N
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 76
know
precise.
I have seen that "some words may become less precise" -- I thought it was
just me who noticed this.
Thanks for confirming. That's my understanding of the "evolution theory" as
Darwin put it.
Apparently LZ (who is "pretty familiar with the evolution theory") may
disagree with you. Can the athestists come to a consensus on these two
questions if you all think Darwin's theory is "as true as earth-is-round"?
【在 t*******d 的大作中提到】
: E神 is pretty familiar with the evolution theory. However, he does not know
: if you are familiar with the evolution theory. In his effort to dumb down
: his explanation of the evolution theory, some words may become less precise.
: As to the 2 questions, the answer is Y and Y until proven otherwise.
:
: straight answer.
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 77 請回答69 樓 GetThere 的問題。
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: thanks. as I said before, I only place my absolute faith on Bible,
: definitely not on some controversial "theory" that evolves as we
: learn more about God's creation.
|
t*******d
发帖数: 2570 | 78 I think she is more interested in picking on you.
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: 請回答69 樓 GetThere 的問題。
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 79
can you tell the difference between "evolution" and bio/genetic engineering
(with or without site targeted mutation)?
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: 請回答69 樓 GetThere 的問題。
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 80 我們對等一下好不好？ 我回答你一個問題， 你就回答我一個。
請回答69 樓 GetThere 的問題。
你回答了以後， 我會回答你。
engineering
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: can you tell the difference between "evolution" and bio/genetic engineering
: (with or without site targeted mutation)?
|
|
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 81 thanks for the offer but I'm not interested since our discussion is less and
less relavent to the "TrustInJesus" forum as long as you refuse to
acknowledge that believing "random" or "designed" is a key difference between the
"evolution theory" view & the Bible view, IMHO.
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: 我們對等一下好不好？ 我回答你一個問題， 你就回答我一個。
: 請回答69 樓 GetThere 的問題。
: 你回答了以後， 我會回答你。
:
: engineering
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 82 你其實就是不敢回答而已。 隨機不隨機比共同祖先還重要？
我說過很多次了，如果我同意不是隨機， 甚至我同意是
神製造所有的變異， 又怎樣？ 進化論還是成立啊！
哪本書說不成立了？ Francis Collins 的
theistic evolution 就是這樣講的，你在這問題上吵什麼？
小島和 GetThere 看到了吧？
and
the
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: thanks for the offer but I'm not interested since our discussion is less and
: less relavent to the "TrustInJesus" forum as long as you refuse to
: acknowledge that believing "random" or "designed" is a key difference between the
: "evolution theory" view & the Bible view, IMHO.
|
G******e
发帖数: 9567 | 83 没准她没看见或者跟你斗气而不回答而已，否则人家也不会要我“define the same
ancestor”。
这样吧，我单独开个新贴，她就好发言了。
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: 你其實就是不敢回答而已。 隨機不隨機比共同祖先還重要？
: 我說過很多次了，如果我同意不是隨機， 甚至我同意是
: 神製造所有的變異， 又怎樣？ 進化論還是成立啊！
: 哪本書說不成立了？ Francis Collins 的
: theistic evolution 就是這樣講的，你在這問題上吵什麼？
: 小島和 GetThere 看到了吧？
:
: and
: the
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 84 我跟你賭包子。
【在 G******e 的大作中提到】
: 没准她没看见或者跟你斗气而不回答而已，否则人家也不会要我“define the same
: ancestor”。
: 这样吧，我单独开个新贴，她就好发言了。
|
t*******d
发帖数: 2570 | 85 我觉得人家对你有意思。呵呵。我早就看出来人家的目标是你，不是进化论。
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: 你其實就是不敢回答而已。 隨機不隨機比共同祖先還重要？
: 我說過很多次了，如果我同意不是隨機， 甚至我同意是
: 神製造所有的變異， 又怎樣？ 進化論還是成立啊！
: 哪本書說不成立了？ Francis Collins 的
: theistic evolution 就是這樣講的，你在這問題上吵什麼？
: 小島和 GetThere 看到了吧？
:
: and
: the
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G******e
发帖数: 9567 | 86 小家子气，你还真是那个嫉妒的神
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: 我跟你賭包子。
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E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 87
我是真想知道她主張什麼。 包子是 hedge 一下。
【在 G******e 的大作中提到】
: 小家子气，你还真是那个嫉妒的神
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G******e
发帖数: 9567 | 88 应该赌一下那个帖子会不会因为“开头没有基督教”为由而被卡卡
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
:
: 我是真想知道她主張什麼。 包子是 hedge 一下。
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 89
不知今夕是何夕?
風流人物,俱往矣。
【在 G******e 的大作中提到】
: 应该赌一下那个帖子会不会因为“开头没有基督教”为由而被卡卡
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 90
IMHO, in this thread of discussion 隨機不隨機比共同祖先還重要 because you
are not sure about the "random mutation" concept, and reluctant to
acknowledge it as a key difference between Darwin's theory & Christian
belief --
IMHO, you can either believe your own existence is a random outcome in the
universe (as in "evolution theory" ) or created by God with a purpose.
Which one do you pick?
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: 你其實就是不敢回答而已。 隨機不隨機比共同祖先還重要？
: 我說過很多次了，如果我同意不是隨機， 甚至我同意是
: 神製造所有的變異， 又怎樣？ 進化論還是成立啊！
: 哪本書說不成立了？ Francis Collins 的
: theistic evolution 就是這樣講的，你在這問題上吵什麼？
: 小島和 GetThere 看到了吧？
:
: and
: the
|
|
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 91
看來小島是有道理的， 你關心我的想法甚於講清楚你的看法。
So, it's all about me, right?
你這裡犯的錯誤叫 False Dilemma.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/false-dilemma.html
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: IMHO, in this thread of discussion 隨機不隨機比共同祖先還重要 because you
: are not sure about the "random mutation" concept, and reluctant to
: acknowledge it as a key difference between Darwin's theory & Christian
: belief --
: IMHO, you can either believe your own existence is a random outcome in the
: universe (as in "evolution theory" ) or created by God with a purpose.
: Which one do you pick?
|
l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | 92 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos
don'
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: IMHO, in this thread of discussion 隨機不隨機比共同祖先還重要 because you
: are not sure about the "random mutation" concept, and reluctant to
: acknowledge it as a key difference between Darwin's theory & Christian
: belief --
: IMHO, you can either believe your own existence is a random outcome in the
: universe (as in "evolution theory" ) or created by God with a purpose.
: Which one do you pick?
|
l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | 93 bingo
【在 t*******d 的大作中提到】
: I think she is more interested in picking on you.
|
