t****t
发帖数: 95 | 1 Do you guys keep book/log and tracking the hourly rate?
Mine per-trip rate is almost normal distribution centered at -7.7/trip
last
year.
Not an easy way to make a living as pro's say. |
t****t
发帖数: 95 | 2 Just figured, it's so funny that the $7.7 is just about the money I spend
for meal per trip. hoho~~ |
W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 3 7.7$ per trip? How many hour per trip? That's like less 2$ per hour?
★ Sent from iPhone App: iReader Mitbbs Lite 7.38 |
t****t
发帖数: 95 | 4 not 7.7, but -7.7.
avg is about 2 hours per trip.
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: 7.7$ per trip? How many hour per trip? That's like less 2$ per hour?
: ★ Sent from iPhone App: iReader Mitbbs Lite 7.38
|
t****t
发帖数: 95 | 5 From my log, I can see that I am a running-even player if not losing. More
importantly, for myself and the game I played (1/2/2/4 at Bay101), there is
barely any edge I have over other players in the last year.
Starting thinking of something (either poker or beyond poker) to make some
change.
【在 t****t 的大作中提到】
: not 7.7, but -7.7.
: avg is about 2 hours per trip.
|
H****r
发帖数: 2801 | 6 rake/tip Counted in?
【在 t****t 的大作中提到】
: Do you guys keep book/log and tracking the hourly rate?
: Mine per-trip rate is almost normal distribution centered at -7.7/trip
: last
: year.
: Not an easy way to make a living as pro's say.
|
W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 7 I guess your strategy is not working. Time to take another look at your
game. Especially your starting hand seclection.
★ Sent from iPhone App: iReader Mitbbs Lite 7.38 |
t****t
发帖数: 95 | 8 yes, everything included.
Tip/rake/meal were all paid with the chips. So these are money cashed out -
money bought in.
【在 H****r 的大作中提到】
: rake/tip Counted in?
|
H****r
发帖数: 2801 | 9 Tip/rake/meal are roughly ~12/hr? Add that to your overall rate and the
result must be a positive number... At Phil Ivy's winning rate, 3 bb/100
hands, playing 1/2 game is negative overall...
-
【在 t****t 的大作中提到】
: yes, everything included.
: Tip/rake/meal were all paid with the chips. So these are money cashed out -
: money bought in.
|
t****t
发帖数: 95 | 10 yeah. Because I had enough sample/data points in the past year,
I did this calculation.
The picture I see now is like this:
1. if it's purely for entertainment, it's way too much time involved.
2. if it's for investment/profitability, it's not making any money.
Either of the above is wasting time. Things must change!
I have some options here:
1. Quit playing poker and find other investment/business
2. become real casual/entertainment player
3. change my game and system and continue playing and analyze again
I am considering 1 as my first choice.
the
bb/100
【在 H****r 的大作中提到】
: Tip/rake/meal are roughly ~12/hr? Add that to your overall rate and the
: result must be a positive number... At Phil Ivy's winning rate, 3 bb/100
: hands, playing 1/2 game is negative overall...
:
: -
|
|
|
l*u
发帖数: 1770 | 11 you are a very discpline player. u can beat current 1/2/2 game. i think you
need increase ur profit with a little more aggressiveness.
【在 t****t 的大作中提到】
: Do you guys keep book/log and tracking the hourly rate?
: Mine per-trip rate is almost normal distribution centered at -7.7/trip
: last
: year.
: Not an easy way to make a living as pro's say.
|
t****t
发帖数: 95 | 12 Thanks for the compliment and support, buddy.
I was just trying to think over why I should spend so much time on the game.
When I looked at my log, I was amazed on how much time I've spent at the
table.
Let's put it this way:
1. we spend 1 hours per day on average, that is 365 hours a year.
2. Realistically, let's assume (best case scenario) we made 10K profit over
the year. (I am not sure how many players on this board made it.)
Then, the hourly rate is: 27.3/hr.
hmmm..... if I spend the 365 hours somewhere else, would I make more hourly
on other business?
I just want to find a point that makes more sense to myself.
By no means am I discouraging any players here for their game. I just
wanted to share my data and my thoughts because of my realism nature.
you
【在 l*u 的大作中提到】
: you are a very discpline player. u can beat current 1/2/2 game. i think you
: need increase ur profit with a little more aggressiveness.
|
l*u
发帖数: 1770 | 13 basicaly u r right. if you can invest the same amount of time in other
business, you may get better return.
right now, i just play poker for fun. i never think i can turn to a pro.
maybe we can better balance our play time.
game.
at the
over
hourly
【在 t****t 的大作中提到】
: Thanks for the compliment and support, buddy.
: I was just trying to think over why I should spend so much time on the game.
: When I looked at my log, I was amazed on how much time I've spent at the
: table.
: Let's put it this way:
: 1. we spend 1 hours per day on average, that is 365 hours a year.
: 2. Realistically, let's assume (best case scenario) we made 10K profit over
: the year. (I am not sure how many players on this board made it.)
: Then, the hourly rate is: 27.3/hr.
: hmmm..... if I spend the 365 hours somewhere else, would I make more hourly
|
f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 14 很好的话题。
对，你算的基本上是实际情况，或者说还是实际情况中比较优化的情况：
1)首先，业余的很少能玩到365小时。当然，每天玩是不可能的，每周能坚持玩一个
session(比如5小时)，一年也才260小时；
2)$27/hr绝对是偏高的rate，$15算是一般说的好rate(长期)。
所以，对于1/2这样的stake，一年在$5000上下是比较正常的期望值，前提还得是水平
够了，运气也不是太差(比如3个月downswing什么的)。
扣除不交税，略相当于$7000的灰色“收入”吧。
干别的，要挣到这个钱是不难，比如神医手下的小护士，呵呵，时间可能还花得少得多。
打牌，是个爱好，不能太较真。
以前有online，可以十倍几十倍的上量，相当于孙悟空分身术，所以挣钱相对容易一些
，数量也大一些，这个对于live单线程来说，很困难。
game.
over
hourly
【在 t****t 的大作中提到】
: Thanks for the compliment and support, buddy.
: I was just trying to think over why I should spend so much time on the game.
: When I looked at my log, I was amazed on how much time I've spent at the
: table.
: Let's put it this way:
: 1. we spend 1 hours per day on average, that is 365 hours a year.
: 2. Realistically, let's assume (best case scenario) we made 10K profit over
: the year. (I am not sure how many players on this board made it.)
: Then, the hourly rate is: 27.3/hr.
: hmmm..... if I spend the 365 hours somewhere else, would I make more hourly
|
f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 15 log是非常重要的。
不见得是赢钱，赢大钱才记，一个认真的牌手都应该如实记录，这是最真实的数据，长
期一看，一目了然。
就象健身的，每天记录自己跑了多少一样。
【在 t****t 的大作中提到】
: Do you guys keep book/log and tracking the hourly rate?
: Mine per-trip rate is almost normal distribution centered at -7.7/trip
: last
: year.
: Not an easy way to make a living as pro's say.
|
t****t
发帖数: 95 | 16 To be frank, I play because I had a dream of crushing the game. In other
words, I want to test myself and my system in real world to see if it's a
winning one.
Honestly, I have got what I wanted to know. The result is: I have no margin
over other players and I ran even on the game.
My mentality now is I have no more curiosity, and therefore, no motivation
of continuing spending time on it. I admit I can't win with large sample
size, then I shouldn't play any more.
oh well, like what I always believe: I don't like coin flip, so I better
find other thing with ++EV's that attract me.
【在 l*u 的大作中提到】
: basicaly u r right. if you can invest the same amount of time in other
: business, you may get better return.
: right now, i just play poker for fun. i never think i can turn to a pro.
: maybe we can better balance our play time.
:
: game.
: at the
: over
: hourly
|
p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 17 I like the way that you keep an accurate log. I definately agree with you
that you should start to do something different. Like MM Laoshi said, your
system does not work really well so far, so you may add some aggression to
your game like liu suggests. I remember your AK/AQ discussion before, that
could be a major leak in your game if you think/play AK/AQ that way.
Here is a the thread disucussing live winning rate ;
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/117/medium-high-stakes-full-r
The variance in live game just could be crazy since we do not play a lot
of hands. For me, No1 factor for long term winning in live game is game
selection.
【在 t****t 的大作中提到】
: Do you guys keep book/log and tracking the hourly rate?
: Mine per-trip rate is almost normal distribution centered at -7.7/trip
: last
: year.
: Not an easy way to make a living as pro's say.
|
g**s
发帖数: 1114 | 18 what's the rake back+bonus if we play online 12 tables NL100 game or rush
NL100 4 tables 365 hours in FT? |
t****t
发帖数: 95 | 19 So true. That's exactly the point I tried to make in my post.
It's time to make the decision now of whether I should change my game and
spend more time vs. whether it's worth it.
If any player on this board would like to share his long-term data, it would
help a lot, especially the ones that could convince me there is an
attractive edge on poker.
you
【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: I like the way that you keep an accurate log. I definately agree with you
: that you should start to do something different. Like MM Laoshi said, your
: system does not work really well so far, so you may add some aggression to
: your game like liu suggests. I remember your AK/AQ discussion before, that
: could be a major leak in your game if you think/play AK/AQ that way.
: Here is a the thread disucussing live winning rate ;
: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/117/medium-high-stakes-full-r
: The variance in live game just could be crazy since we do not play a lot
: of hands. For me, No1 factor for long term winning in live game is game
: selection.
|
c****1
发帖数: 457 | 20 What do you want from the poker?
Do you truely love poker? It is really hard for someone who doesnt love
playing have an edge over someone who does love playing poker no matter what
.
The passion for playing poker comes from your nature, not from the goal to
beat others. Just my 2 cents.
would
【在 t****t 的大作中提到】
: So true. That's exactly the point I tried to make in my post.
: It's time to make the decision now of whether I should change my game and
: spend more time vs. whether it's worth it.
: If any player on this board would like to share his long-term data, it would
: help a lot, especially the ones that could convince me there is an
: attractive edge on poker.
:
: you
|
|
|
p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 21 " I have 2502 hours career (2006-present) at 5/10nl, $74/hour.
Since taking 6 weeks off in Sept-Oct 2009 to re-construct my game, dropping
to 2/5 and rebuilding back up, I have 1234 hours, $111/hour."
This is a decent full time Vegas grinder's winning rate.
you
【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: I like the way that you keep an accurate log. I definately agree with you
: that you should start to do something different. Like MM Laoshi said, your
: system does not work really well so far, so you may add some aggression to
: your game like liu suggests. I remember your AK/AQ discussion before, that
: could be a major leak in your game if you think/play AK/AQ that way.
: Here is a the thread disucussing live winning rate ;
: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/117/medium-high-stakes-full-r
: The variance in live game just could be crazy since we do not play a lot
: of hands. For me, No1 factor for long term winning in live game is game
: selection.
|
t****t
发帖数: 95 | 22 感谢回帖。
打牌中我体会特别深刻的一点就是以赚钱为唯一目的现实主义，有些太赤裸裸，不过我
总是喜欢把话说穿。时间和钱应该是可以换算的，我远远没有一年5000的盈利，不过就
算是有了，15美元的hourly比cleaning lady还低。浪费时光啊~~~
我只是想和牌友分享我的数据，我自己只是avg的水平，但是我想avg really means
something.
很愿意看到你们的数据
多。
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: 很好的话题。
: 对，你算的基本上是实际情况，或者说还是实际情况中比较优化的情况：
: 1)首先，业余的很少能玩到365小时。当然，每天玩是不可能的，每周能坚持玩一个
: session(比如5小时)，一年也才260小时；
: 2)$27/hr绝对是偏高的rate，$15算是一般说的好rate(长期)。
: 所以，对于1/2这样的stake，一年在$5000上下是比较正常的期望值，前提还得是水平
: 够了，运气也不是太差(比如3个月downswing什么的)。
: 扣除不交税，略相当于$7000的灰色“收入”吧。
: 干别的，要挣到这个钱是不难，比如神医手下的小护士，呵呵，时间可能还花得少得多。
: 打牌，是个爱好，不能太较真。
|
p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 23 I remember about a year ago I saw a post from a full time 10-20NL grinder
from commerce. His winnrate is about 220$/hour. But I doubt that winning
rate can be archieved now since the game is not as good as before.
I think I have tons of leaks in cash game myself. Still lots of things to
improve. Live tells is one of them for sure.
dropping
【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: " I have 2502 hours career (2006-present) at 5/10nl, $74/hour.
: Since taking 6 weeks off in Sept-Oct 2009 to re-construct my game, dropping
: to 2/5 and rebuilding back up, I have 1234 hours, $111/hour."
: This is a decent full time Vegas grinder's winning rate.
:
: you
|
l*****g
发帖数: 1128 | 24 Very good point. If you don't love poker, then it would be hard to put time
on studying it. To me, poker is my biggest hobby and I am grateful that I
can make some money by doing something I really enjoy.
what
【在 c****1 的大作中提到】
: What do you want from the poker?
: Do you truely love poker? It is really hard for someone who doesnt love
: playing have an edge over someone who does love playing poker no matter what
: .
: The passion for playing poker comes from your nature, not from the goal to
: beat others. Just my 2 cents.
:
: would
|
t****t
发帖数: 95 | 25 Well, I think I am passionate on Poker with no wonder. Otherwise, I won't
spent so much time and made so many trips, would I?
On the other hand, I am not a dreamer/gambler. Even I am passionate on
Poker, I'd like to gain profit from the time I spend. Pure passionate
without a goal, to me, is gambling.
It's just my opinion.
what
【在 c****1 的大作中提到】
: What do you want from the poker?
: Do you truely love poker? It is really hard for someone who doesnt love
: playing have an edge over someone who does love playing poker no matter what
: .
: The passion for playing poker comes from your nature, not from the goal to
: beat others. Just my 2 cents.
:
: would
|
l*****g
发帖数: 1128 | 26 Well, If you really love poker and treat it like a hobby, why are you
complaining about it if you're just breaking even? You have to spend money
on other hobbies anyway.
【在 t****t 的大作中提到】
: Well, I think I am passionate on Poker with no wonder. Otherwise, I won't
: spent so much time and made so many trips, would I?
: On the other hand, I am not a dreamer/gambler. Even I am passionate on
: Poker, I'd like to gain profit from the time I spend. Pure passionate
: without a goal, to me, is gambling.
: It's just my opinion.
:
: what
|
W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 27 Are you questioning your own ability to win or others's ability? There are
many good players out there who can make a great living out of poker. There
are also 90% of people who only donates when they play. One thing is certain
. Poker is a skilled game and it takes hard work to improve your
understanding of the game. Do not expect to waltz in any game and start
winning by waiting for the nuts. However I also believe with the right
attitude and hard work, any one can beat at least 1/2$ or 2/5$ game. Whether
the winning worth the time that is an entirely different discussion,
So true.
★ Sent from iPhone App: iReader Mitbbs Lite 7.38
【在 t****t 的大作中提到】
: Well, I think I am passionate on Poker with no wonder. Otherwise, I won't
: spent so much time and made so many trips, would I?
: On the other hand, I am not a dreamer/gambler. Even I am passionate on
: Poker, I'd like to gain profit from the time I spend. Pure passionate
: without a goal, to me, is gambling.
: It's just my opinion.
:
: what
|
t****t
发帖数: 95 | 28 Thanks for sharing, bro. Your data is so encouraging to me, and it gives me
a projected picture along the stake level.
You are the man on this board.
dropping
【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: " I have 2502 hours career (2006-present) at 5/10nl, $74/hour.
: Since taking 6 weeks off in Sept-Oct 2009 to re-construct my game, dropping
: to 2/5 and rebuilding back up, I have 1234 hours, $111/hour."
: This is a decent full time Vegas grinder's winning rate.
:
: you
|
c****1
发帖数: 457 | 29 cant agree more on game selection.
上次就看你们在争论我说的$40/hour是否现实。 我觉得live想挣钱最重要的不是看谁
的range analysis最好，而是看最最能找人，找桌子。
当我想练技术的时候，我就上5/10找tough的regular。当我需要零花钱的时候，我就选
合适的时间去捕鱼。我一般target三种人，1.喝醉的人（一般周五晚上9点后比较多）
。 2.爱tilt的人，（经常去local casino，你会知道哪些人容易tilt，我有可能会故
意chase一些gutshot straight或者runner runner flush的小pot，把他们打急）。现
在我再去，总有几个以前被我打急的人和我玩的非常personal。 3.有钱的fish，这种
人我一般都是打一打，然后问他一般时候来。我的contact现在又两个大鱼，一个是经
常在crab上几千几千输的老头，还有一个是在beverly hill有房的在好莱坞不知道干啥
的年轻人，每次上桌就是3000（pittsburgh 2/5基本上是no cap的）。然后打一打，有
人就会说 let's make it mandatory straddle.“那game就是5/10了。所以我上次说的
$40/hour是这种1/3,2/5,5/10混打下找鱼局情况的rate
you
【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: I remember about a year ago I saw a post from a full time 10-20NL grinder
: from commerce. His winnrate is about 220$/hour. But I doubt that winning
: rate can be archieved now since the game is not as good as before.
:
: I think I have tons of leaks in cash game myself. Still lots of things to
: improve. Live tells is one of them for sure.
:
: dropping
|
p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 30 tha is not my data. it is from that thread. hehe.
I was very lazy to keep log all the time. But my online result is
accurate since data mining website keep them.
me
【在 t****t 的大作中提到】
: Thanks for sharing, bro. Your data is so encouraging to me, and it gives me
: a projected picture along the stake level.
: You are the man on this board.
:
: dropping
|
|
|
t****t
发帖数: 95 | 31 我喜欢这个帖子！感谢分享，absolutely no BS.
【在 c****1 的大作中提到】
: cant agree more on game selection.
: 上次就看你们在争论我说的$40/hour是否现实。 我觉得live想挣钱最重要的不是看谁
: 的range analysis最好，而是看最最能找人，找桌子。
: 当我想练技术的时候，我就上5/10找tough的regular。当我需要零花钱的时候，我就选
: 合适的时间去捕鱼。我一般target三种人，1.喝醉的人（一般周五晚上9点后比较多）
: 。 2.爱tilt的人，（经常去local casino，你会知道哪些人容易tilt，我有可能会故
: 意chase一些gutshot straight或者runner runner flush的小pot，把他们打急）。现
: 在我再去，总有几个以前被我打急的人和我玩的非常personal。 3.有钱的fish，这种
: 人我一般都是打一打，然后问他一般时候来。我的contact现在又两个大鱼，一个是经
: 常在crab上几千几千输的老头，还有一个是在beverly hill有房的在好莱坞不知道干啥
|
W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 32 Online cash game 其实也是table selection. 2+2 micro cash section 就有讨论。
赚钱快就是要靠fish. Online, live 一样的。只是找鱼的方法不同。live fish 多得
多， 更好找。
【在 c****1 的大作中提到】
: cant agree more on game selection.
: 上次就看你们在争论我说的$40/hour是否现实。 我觉得live想挣钱最重要的不是看谁
: 的range analysis最好，而是看最最能找人，找桌子。
: 当我想练技术的时候，我就上5/10找tough的regular。当我需要零花钱的时候，我就选
: 合适的时间去捕鱼。我一般target三种人，1.喝醉的人（一般周五晚上9点后比较多）
: 。 2.爱tilt的人，（经常去local casino，你会知道哪些人容易tilt，我有可能会故
: 意chase一些gutshot straight或者runner runner flush的小pot，把他们打急）。现
: 在我再去，总有几个以前被我打急的人和我玩的非常personal。 3.有钱的fish，这种
: 人我一般都是打一打，然后问他一般时候来。我的contact现在又两个大鱼，一个是经
: 常在crab上几千几千输的老头，还有一个是在beverly hill有房的在好莱坞不知道干啥
|
W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 33 你这casino 真不错。 鲍鱼塘啊？
【在 c****1 的大作中提到】
: cant agree more on game selection.
: 上次就看你们在争论我说的$40/hour是否现实。 我觉得live想挣钱最重要的不是看谁
: 的range analysis最好，而是看最最能找人，找桌子。
: 当我想练技术的时候，我就上5/10找tough的regular。当我需要零花钱的时候，我就选
: 合适的时间去捕鱼。我一般target三种人，1.喝醉的人（一般周五晚上9点后比较多）
: 。 2.爱tilt的人，（经常去local casino，你会知道哪些人容易tilt，我有可能会故
: 意chase一些gutshot straight或者runner runner flush的小pot，把他们打急）。现
: 在我再去，总有几个以前被我打急的人和我玩的非常personal。 3.有钱的fish，这种
: 人我一般都是打一打，然后问他一般时候来。我的contact现在又两个大鱼，一个是经
: 常在crab上几千几千输的老头，还有一个是在beverly hill有房的在好莱坞不知道干啥
|
c****1
发帖数: 457 | 34 poker在某些时候或多或少都有gamble的成分。如果你太不喜欢gamble，你可能会让那
些爱gamble的人push的很厉害，给他们太大的fold equity，比较吃亏吧
【在 t****t 的大作中提到】
: Well, I think I am passionate on Poker with no wonder. Otherwise, I won't
: spent so much time and made so many trips, would I?
: On the other hand, I am not a dreamer/gambler. Even I am passionate on
: Poker, I'd like to gain profit from the time I spend. Pure passionate
: without a goal, to me, is gambling.
: It's just my opinion.
:
: what
|
p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 35 no cap 2-5? that is my favorate game! winning rate is usually higher than
most 5-10NL since more fishes and more post flop play.
maybe you should give me the name of the casino. hehe.
I met quite a few regular giant fishes in Vegas. I remember a guy from
middle east. He lives in LA but he comes to Vegas sometime to gamble. Once
he sit down with 10k in no cap 2-5NL game, and play pretty much very single
hand. One hand he called big raise preflop in dark(not looking his hole card
) and called 500$ bet on the turn still w/o looking! hoho, and he rivered
trips . hehe
【在 c****1 的大作中提到】
: cant agree more on game selection.
: 上次就看你们在争论我说的$40/hour是否现实。 我觉得live想挣钱最重要的不是看谁
: 的range analysis最好，而是看最最能找人，找桌子。
: 当我想练技术的时候，我就上5/10找tough的regular。当我需要零花钱的时候，我就选
: 合适的时间去捕鱼。我一般target三种人，1.喝醉的人（一般周五晚上9点后比较多）
: 。 2.爱tilt的人，（经常去local casino，你会知道哪些人容易tilt，我有可能会故
: 意chase一些gutshot straight或者runner runner flush的小pot，把他们打急）。现
: 在我再去，总有几个以前被我打急的人和我玩的非常personal。 3.有钱的fish，这种
: 人我一般都是打一打，然后问他一般时候来。我的contact现在又两个大鱼，一个是经
: 常在crab上几千几千输的老头，还有一个是在beverly hill有房的在好莱坞不知道干啥
|
l*****g
发帖数: 1128 | 36 说起GAMBLE，昨晚有一手牌，大家看看我是CALL还是FOLD？
Limped pot. 7-handed. Flop Kd 10d 9d. I had Ad6c. Checked to MP who bet 20.
LP then went all in for around 130$. I had him covered.Should I call or fold?
【在 c****1 的大作中提到】
: poker在某些时候或多或少都有gamble的成分。如果你太不喜欢gamble，你可能会让那
: 些爱gamble的人push的很厉害，给他们太大的fold equity，比较吃亏吧
|
p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 37 more game selection on online and we play much faster online as well. I
still prefer online , although I made many mistake playing online pre BF.
。
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: Online cash game 其实也是table selection. 2+2 micro cash section 就有讨论。
: 赚钱快就是要靠fish. Online, live 一样的。只是找鱼的方法不同。live fish 多得
: 多， 更好找。
|
W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 38 其实要是赢不了钱， 又不enjoy playing. Quit 也挺好的。 花很多时间在小stake上
是没啥意思。输钱就更浪费时间了。 |
f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 39 solid fold.
.
fold?
【在 l*****g 的大作中提到】
: 说起GAMBLE，昨晚有一手牌，大家看看我是CALL还是FOLD？
: Limped pot. 7-handed. Flop Kd 10d 9d. I had Ad6c. Checked to MP who bet 20.
: LP then went all in for around 130$. I had him covered.Should I call or fold?
|
l*****g
发帖数: 1128 | 40 I folded, but I would've hit the flush on the river.
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: solid fold.
:
: .
: fold?
|
|
|
W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 41 Super turbo muck.
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: solid fold.
:
: .
: fold?
|
t****t
发帖数: 95 | 42 I agree. Playing randomness itself is gambling even if you have +EV (AA
against 72). But I, most of the times, only play +EV and I don't see the
reason for -EV gambling.
To me, implied odds don't mean anything unless you are 100% sure he's gonna
move-in when you hit. It's the second-order gambling.
【在 c****1 的大作中提到】
: poker在某些时候或多或少都有gamble的成分。如果你太不喜欢gamble，你可能会让那
: 些爱gamble的人push的很厉害，给他们太大的fold equity，比较吃亏吧
|
f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 43 live俺长期还达不到$15，呵呵。
最近的不是一直在不怕出丑的前提下，一直在贴么？俺的目标是试着有规律(每周一局)
的玩几个月看看，相对可靠的数字。
如果说纯粹挣钱，没错，1/2这样的是属于浪费时间。
【在 t****t 的大作中提到】
: 感谢回帖。
: 打牌中我体会特别深刻的一点就是以赚钱为唯一目的现实主义，有些太赤裸裸，不过我
: 总是喜欢把话说穿。时间和钱应该是可以换算的，我远远没有一年5000的盈利，不过就
: 算是有了，15美元的hourly比cleaning lady还低。浪费时光啊~~~
: 我只是想和牌友分享我的数据，我自己只是avg的水平，但是我想avg really means
: something.
: 很愿意看到你们的数据
:
: 多。
|
c****1
发帖数: 457 | 44 我觉得你应该没有50%以上的equity，MP，LP都有可能是combo draw，所以你flush上应
该没有9个outs，LP还有可能是set。overall，你对LP应该没有50%的equity，但是如果
确定你call之后，别人不push，MP只是call的话，你也可以call。 3-way pot, 你应该
有>33%的equity
.
fold?
【在 l*****g 的大作中提到】
: 说起GAMBLE，昨晚有一手牌，大家看看我是CALL还是FOLD？
: Limped pot. 7-handed. Flop Kd 10d 9d. I had Ad6c. Checked to MP who bet 20.
: LP then went all in for around 130$. I had him covered.Should I call or fold?
|
c****1
发帖数: 457 | 45 yeah.when it's +EV and variance is reasonable to tolerate. we should not be
afraid to put chips in.
gonna
【在 t****t 的大作中提到】
: I agree. Playing randomness itself is gambling even if you have +EV (AA
: against 72). But I, most of the times, only play +EV and I don't see the
: reason for -EV gambling.
: To me, implied odds don't mean anything unless you are 100% sure he's gonna
: move-in when you hit. It's the second-order gambling.
|
l*****g
发帖数: 1128 | 46 我是确定MP不会CALL的，我其实当时是想都没想就FOLD了的。但是回顾我最近打的牌，
发现好多牌我要GAMBLE一下会赢的，但都没冒险。
【在 c****1 的大作中提到】
: 我觉得你应该没有50%以上的equity，MP，LP都有可能是combo draw，所以你flush上应
: 该没有9个outs，LP还有可能是set。overall，你对LP应该没有50%的equity，但是如果
: 确定你call之后，别人不push，MP只是call的话，你也可以call。 3-way pot, 你应该
: 有>33%的equity
:
: .
: fold?
|
t****t
发帖数: 95 | 47 yep! 无论怎样，poker还是能磨练人的，所以学到体会到了新的东西就值了，至少我不
后悔搭进去的时间。
局)
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: live俺长期还达不到$15，呵呵。
: 最近的不是一直在不怕出丑的前提下，一直在贴么？俺的目标是试着有规律(每周一局)
: 的玩几个月看看，相对可靠的数字。
: 如果说纯粹挣钱，没错，1/2这样的是属于浪费时间。
|
c****1
发帖数: 457 | 48 这说的太对了。情绪控制，维持好的心态，在压力下冷静的思考，如和面对下风，如和
控制风险等等，这些我从poker都得到进一步的认识。这些都没法用输赢衡量
【在 t****t 的大作中提到】
: yep! 无论怎样，poker还是能磨练人的，所以学到体会到了新的东西就值了，至少我不
: 后悔搭进去的时间。
:
: 局)
|
f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 49 俺是这么看的，一是本身自己就喜欢玩这个(不喜欢拖拉机，斗地主，PLO等等)，二是
一种生活体验，背离早九晚五的“正常”生活。
【在 t****t 的大作中提到】
: yep! 无论怎样，poker还是能磨练人的，所以学到体会到了新的东西就值了，至少我不
: 后悔搭进去的时间。
:
: 局)
|
l*****g
发帖数: 1128 | 50 有段时间我很沉迷于拖拉机，天天想着赢分升官，现在有POKER后就对拖拉机一点兴趣
都没了。
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: 俺是这么看的，一是本身自己就喜欢玩这个(不喜欢拖拉机，斗地主，PLO等等)，二是
: 一种生活体验，背离早九晚五的“正常”生活。
|
|
|
t****t
发帖数: 95 | 51 exactly.
【在 c****1 的大作中提到】
: 这说的太对了。情绪控制，维持好的心态，在压力下冷静的思考，如和面对下风，如和
: 控制风险等等，这些我从poker都得到进一步的认识。这些都没法用输赢衡量
|
f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 52 那才真是浪费时间，如同俺fish in law，当个小地主跟宝贝似的。
扑克虽小，赢点也是成果，虚拟的几万分有哈用？
【在 l*****g 的大作中提到】
: 有段时间我很沉迷于拖拉机，天天想着赢分升官，现在有POKER后就对拖拉机一点兴趣
: 都没了。
|
l*****g
发帖数: 1128 | 53 斗地主对我没什么吸引力，我当时打了几个星期就升到了地主，然后就觉得没什么挑战
性，又回到拖拉机战场了。
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: 那才真是浪费时间，如同俺fish in law，当个小地主跟宝贝似的。
: 扑克虽小，赢点也是成果，虚拟的几万分有哈用？
|
p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 54 赞版主心态。
其实这样的心态打，不容易tilt. 而且很enjoy.
我几乎从来没有把poker当作一个hobby来看待，但能一直打下去，主要还是因为
有兴趣。
如果让我作苦工，即使pay跟多的钱, 也早坚持不下去了。
打Live 比较有意思，还是一个比较social 的活动，作为一个谋生手段也不难。
但如果想有大的发展，online 要好得多。 我打live full time 的时
候，认识不少 full time live grinder, 现在回去，看他们大多还是打以前一个级别
的game. 很多人是打得很不错的。
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: 俺是这么看的，一是本身自己就喜欢玩这个(不喜欢拖拉机，斗地主，PLO等等)，二是
: 一种生活体验，背离早九晚五的“正常”生活。
|
H****r
发帖数: 2801 | 55 Had a similar hand and I went allin for ~130 with middle pair and 3 callers.
.. I won and they all missed their huge draws :p
That hand made the deal laughed...
.
fold?
【在 l*****g 的大作中提到】
: 说起GAMBLE，昨晚有一手牌，大家看看我是CALL还是FOLD？
: Limped pot. 7-handed. Flop Kd 10d 9d. I had Ad6c. Checked to MP who bet 20.
: LP then went all in for around 130$. I had him covered.Should I call or fold?
|
H****r
发帖数: 2801 | 56 This rate is really high...
dropping
【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: " I have 2502 hours career (2006-present) at 5/10nl, $74/hour.
: Since taking 6 weeks off in Sept-Oct 2009 to re-construct my game, dropping
: to 2/5 and rebuilding back up, I have 1234 hours, $111/hour."
: This is a decent full time Vegas grinder's winning rate.
:
: you
|
f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 57 俺居然耐着性子读完了那个2+2的帖子，靠，live真的很难谋生啊。
【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: 赞版主心态。
: 其实这样的心态打，不容易tilt. 而且很enjoy.
:
: 我几乎从来没有把poker当作一个hobby来看待，但能一直打下去，主要还是因为
: 有兴趣。
: 如果让我作苦工，即使pay跟多的钱, 也早坚持不下去了。
: 打Live 比较有意思，还是一个比较social 的活动，作为一个谋生手段也不难。
: 但如果想有大的发展，online 要好得多。 我打live full time 的时
: 候，认识不少 full time live grinder, 现在回去，看他们大多还是打以前一个级别
: 的game. 很多人是打得很不错的。
|
p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 58 decent but not great.
I kept my log for a few month back a little over two years ago, had similar
winning rate. the problem is that at 5-10 level, we do not get a "game"
very often nowdays. A game means there are table open and at least 2 fishes
in. so we do not have so many hours playing.
【在 H****r 的大作中提到】
: This rate is really high...
:
: dropping
|
W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 59 这个帖， 我竟然已经读过了。 lol
I like the way that you keep an accurate log. I definately agree with you
that you shoul........
★ Sent from iPhone App: iReader Mitbbs Lite 7.36
【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: decent but not great.
: I kept my log for a few month back a little over two years ago, had similar
: winning rate. the problem is that at 5-10 level, we do not get a "game"
: very often nowdays. A game means there are table open and at least 2 fishes
: in. so we do not have so many hours playing.
|
f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 60 兄弟，说实话，俺很是替你过来打5/10担忧，据俺相当不完全的观察，WV一般平时一桌
，周末2-3桌5/10，熟面孔多，估计要出个稍微面生点的都是新闻。
周末也罢了，可能有鱼，平时晚上也玩5/10的，难道是几个pro ego非整个你死我活不
可？
2/5可能稳妥一点，至少几个跟俺聊天的，其言论还属于1/2水准，呵呵。
similar
fishes
【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: decent but not great.
: I kept my log for a few month back a little over two years ago, had similar
: winning rate. the problem is that at 5-10 level, we do not get a "game"
: very often nowdays. A game means there are table open and at least 2 fishes
: in. so we do not have so many hours playing.
|
|
|
H****r
发帖数: 2801 | 61 找出熟鱼 @@
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: 兄弟，说实话，俺很是替你过来打5/10担忧，据俺相当不完全的观察，WV一般平时一桌
: ，周末2-3桌5/10，熟面孔多，估计要出个稍微面生点的都是新闻。
: 周末也罢了，可能有鱼，平时晚上也玩5/10的，难道是几个pro ego非整个你死我活不
: 可？
: 2/5可能稳妥一点，至少几个跟俺聊天的，其言论还属于1/2水准，呵呵。
:
: similar
: fishes
|
f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 62 有几个女的是常客，一点不弱的样子。
【在 H****r 的大作中提到】
: 找出熟鱼 @@
|
p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 63 是啊。那哥们的rate 74$/h live 5-10NL 已经不错了，但2502 小时， 不过180k. 从
06 年开始的， 实在不多啊。 您老，工资+bonus+401k etc+poker, 一年 就能赚这个
钱吧。
我online 算上rakeback, 在ftp 两年大概赢了200k. 我打 Online 100$ HUSNG, 一个
小时平均能赚120$, 但那个东西实在是太stressful, 虽然24 小时有game, 但实际打
得时间每天也就3 个小时。 因为不断要休息，而且太容易tilt.
【 在 fryking (赤道企鹅) 的大作中提到: 】 |
p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 64 ppmm?
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: 有几个女的是常客，一点不弱的样子。
|
H****r
发帖数: 2801 | 65 要有长的像Vanessa Rousso的player肯定开心
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: 有几个女的是常客，一点不弱的样子。
|
s*******o
发帖数: 4896 | 66 super turbo和rush简直是FTP最最天才的发明
大大提高winning/hour啊
, 一个
【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: 是啊。那哥们的rate 74$/h live 5-10NL 已经不错了，但2502 小时， 不过180k. 从
: 06 年开始的， 实在不多啊。 您老，工资+bonus+401k etc+poker, 一年 就能赚这个
: 钱吧。
:
: 我online 算上rakeback, 在ftp 两年大概赢了200k. 我打 Online 100$ HUSNG, 一个
: 小时平均能赚120$, 但那个东西实在是太stressful, 虽然24 小时有game, 但实际打
: 得时间每天也就3 个小时。 因为不断要休息，而且太容易tilt.
: 【 在 fryking (赤道企鹅) 的大作中提到: 】
|
I**n
发帖数: 839 | 67 我说句不好听的 the best thing for me in 2011 is the black friday
很多pro不高兴了 断了财路 不少人搬到canada 又怎样呢 忘了那个pro的采访了 少了
美国这个大鱼塘 谁都赚不到什么钱
【在 s*******o 的大作中提到】
: super turbo和rush简直是FTP最最天才的发明
: 大大提高winning/hour啊
:
: , 一个
|
I**n
发帖数: 839 | 68 我个人认为对很多家庭尤其是有小孩的网络扑克是个-ev的东西 尤其是典型的中国家庭
比如说俺 虽然老婆每周放半天假 但事实上她宁愿俺在家看电视 没了网络扑克 一下子
多了无数家庭时间 priceless
【在 I**n 的大作中提到】
: 我说句不好听的 the best thing for me in 2011 is the black friday
: 很多pro不高兴了 断了财路 不少人搬到canada 又怎样呢 忘了那个pro的采访了 少了
: 美国这个大鱼塘 谁都赚不到什么钱
|
I**n
发帖数: 839 | 69 要说赌性 俺应该和版大是一个层次 只要坐下来 可以不吃不喝 一直打到table break
导致有一段总是早上给公司打电话告病假 第一次打no limit 出差回来的路上从周四晚
打到周六还是周日输了3k 现在想想当时满桌肯定都盯着我这条鱼
local一度只有4-8limit half kill 想想看 一把$4 rake把把有人tip 还总有人tip一
把chip 一小时三圈好了 3X9X5=$135 基本上三个小时就有四个人被wipe out! 你能有
多大的edge
升级好了 就说fulltilt好了 还没打多高呢 就碰到一堆pro, what the fxk!
everybody knows everybody 看看highstakesdb那些人 钱就是不停的换手而以
【在 I**n 的大作中提到】
: 我个人认为对很多家庭尤其是有小孩的网络扑克是个-ev的东西 尤其是典型的中国家庭
: 比如说俺 虽然老婆每周放半天假 但事实上她宁愿俺在家看电视 没了网络扑克 一下子
: 多了无数家庭时间 priceless
|
I**n
发帖数: 839 | 70 不过人生就是折腾 俺折腾了两年 明白这个道理 至少俺是没希望了 牛人当然有 但这
行相对还是太难了 即使作为副业也很难 相反的俺身边一些朋友做business 三四年间
从无到有 刚刚scale up一点点就有可观的收入 poker呢 开赌场还行 否则还是体力活啊
break
【在 I**n 的大作中提到】
: 要说赌性 俺应该和版大是一个层次 只要坐下来 可以不吃不喝 一直打到table break
: 导致有一段总是早上给公司打电话告病假 第一次打no limit 出差回来的路上从周四晚
: 打到周六还是周日输了3k 现在想想当时满桌肯定都盯着我这条鱼
: local一度只有4-8limit half kill 想想看 一把$4 rake把把有人tip 还总有人tip一
: 把chip 一小时三圈好了 3X9X5=$135 基本上三个小时就有四个人被wipe out! 你能有
: 多大的edge
: 升级好了 就说fulltilt好了 还没打多高呢 就碰到一堆pro, what the fxk!
: everybody knows everybody 看看highstakesdb那些人 钱就是不停的换手而以
|
|
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I**n
发帖数: 839 | 71 exactly 74/h 好像是不错了 那可是千辛万苦啊 俺对门办公室的 五点半还在办公室上
网 曰今天来晚了 晚点走 相信有一堆人是边上bbs边挣钱的 这多爽阿
, 一个
【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: 是啊。那哥们的rate 74$/h live 5-10NL 已经不错了，但2502 小时， 不过180k. 从
: 06 年开始的， 实在不多啊。 您老，工资+bonus+401k etc+poker, 一年 就能赚这个
: 钱吧。
:
: 我online 算上rakeback, 在ftp 两年大概赢了200k. 我打 Online 100$ HUSNG, 一个
: 小时平均能赚120$, 但那个东西实在是太stressful, 虽然24 小时有game, 但实际打
: 得时间每天也就3 个小时。 因为不断要休息，而且太容易tilt.
: 【 在 fryking (赤道企鹅) 的大作中提到: 】
|
I**n
发帖数: 839 | 72 一直潜水 看到微软那哥们的帖子 颇有感触
如果他是打牌 这么严重-ev的行为 恐怕最后血本无归
【在 I**n 的大作中提到】
: exactly 74/h 好像是不错了 那可是千辛万苦啊 俺对门办公室的 五点半还在办公室上
: 网 曰今天来晚了 晚点走 相信有一堆人是边上bbs边挣钱的 这多爽阿
:
: , 一个
|
l*****g
发帖数: 1128 | 73 同意。网络扑克还是太影响家庭了，也不健康，从早到晚坐到电脑前，伤眼睛伤身体。
【在 I**n 的大作中提到】
: 我个人认为对很多家庭尤其是有小孩的网络扑克是个-ev的东西 尤其是典型的中国家庭
: 比如说俺 虽然老婆每周放半天假 但事实上她宁愿俺在家看电视 没了网络扑克 一下子
: 多了无数家庭时间 priceless
|
I**n
发帖数: 839 | 74 不好意思走题了 话说回来 俺还是赌性强 还是会去打牌 nut flush 3-way instant
all in call. 居然hit了 这一晚上没什么人再bluff俺了 应该还算+ev吧
【在 t****t 的大作中提到】
: Do you guys keep book/log and tracking the hourly rate?
: Mine per-trip rate is almost normal distribution centered at -7.7/trip
: last
: year.
: Not an easy way to make a living as pro's say.
|
H****r
发帖数: 2801 | 75 此言甚善
间
活啊
【在 I**n 的大作中提到】
: 不过人生就是折腾 俺折腾了两年 明白这个道理 至少俺是没希望了 牛人当然有 但这
: 行相对还是太难了 即使作为副业也很难 相反的俺身边一些朋友做business 三四年间
: 从无到有 刚刚scale up一点点就有可观的收入 poker呢 开赌场还行 否则还是体力活啊
:
: break
|
p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 76 yeah. still labor Job. see livb112 won a WPT in Bogata two years ago , good
for 900k, and he won 400k-500k every year playing poker online. but
compared with his dad,mom, brother 's income, he still made least money
during that year. We all know their income are a lot more stable than poker
money.
All his family member are just middle level managers at NYC's bank,
hedge fund etc. It seems these Wall Street money are a lot easlier.
It is such a shame that these banks still use tax payer's money as
bailout money though.
间
活啊
【在 I**n 的大作中提到】
: 不过人生就是折腾 俺折腾了两年 明白这个道理 至少俺是没希望了 牛人当然有 但这
: 行相对还是太难了 即使作为副业也很难 相反的俺身边一些朋友做business 三四年间
: 从无到有 刚刚scale up一点点就有可观的收入 poker呢 开赌场还行 否则还是体力活啊
:
: break
|
t****t
发帖数: 95 | 77 说的很真实，句句在理儿。
其实打牌真正能赚多少钱还的确挺难的。在牌桌上谁比谁精明到哪儿去也真不好说。欺
负那些什么经验都没有的鱼也不是长久的办法（靠天吃饭？）。我的感觉就是，打牌不
能强求，randomness给你的就是你的，不是你的也强求不来。45 suited call AA
preflop big raise and hit是偶然事件。
我发这个贴就是想和大伙说，或许有比打牌更值得我们花时间的事情。至少我自己认为
，太多时间花在打牌上有点可惜。当我从打牌的过程中体会不到更多的感悟的时候，我
觉得就是应该dump it的时候了。
想到了rounders最后的场景，Michael真的比KGB打的好吗？我觉得我更佩服KGB，因为
他很现实，他承认结果，尤其他的那句话是我印象最深的台词：he beats me (because
he's a better player than me??), straight up. pay him, pay that man his
money. 我崇尚结果论，就像KGB？By the end of the day, whoever has the money
is the boss.
Anyways,任何不创造价值的事情都不可能是长期+EV的。So, enjoy as much as you
can afford.
【在 I**n 的大作中提到】
: 不好意思走题了 话说回来 俺还是赌性强 还是会去打牌 nut flush 3-way instant
: all in call. 居然hit了 这一晚上没什么人再bluff俺了 应该还算+ev吧
|
c****1
发帖数: 457 | 78 好多感慨贴啊
poker当然不能和华尔街或者business man比。但是poker比大多数美国人的那种每年小
于10w的regular job要好很多吧，自己做boss，时间flexible。因次poker还是很不错
的选择。
good
poker
【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: yeah. still labor Job. see livb112 won a WPT in Bogata two years ago , good
: for 900k, and he won 400k-500k every year playing poker online. but
: compared with his dad,mom, brother 's income, he still made least money
: during that year. We all know their income are a lot more stable than poker
: money.
:
: All his family member are just middle level managers at NYC's bank,
: hedge fund etc. It seems these Wall Street money are a lot easlier.
: It is such a shame that these banks still use tax payer's money as
: bailout money though.
|
c****1
发帖数: 457 | 79 打牌主要还是要靠兴趣支撑的，毕竟往那一坐就是几个小时。这就是我为什么不喜欢
cash game，更喜欢tournament。cash game太多的griding，头三个小时我还能头脑清
楚，后来越打越累。但是tournament，越打越激烈刺激，感觉肾上腺激素分泌越多，一
点不累，反而更兴奋。当年打sunday million和其他一些two day event，一打就是连
续10-11小时，每小时只能休息5分钟，但是我却一点都不觉得累（至少打的时候不觉得
）。当你赢了tournament，接受别人的congrats和interview，有极大的成就感。这种
满足感在一般的regular job中我很难得到。所以打牌除了挣钱，很大程度还是获得在
普通工作中获得不了的精神愉悦。
good
poker
【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: yeah. still labor Job. see livb112 won a WPT in Bogata two years ago , good
: for 900k, and he won 400k-500k every year playing poker online. but
: compared with his dad,mom, brother 's income, he still made least money
: during that year. We all know their income are a lot more stable than poker
: money.
:
: All his family member are just middle level managers at NYC's bank,
: hedge fund etc. It seems these Wall Street money are a lot easlier.
: It is such a shame that these banks still use tax payer's money as
: bailout money though.
|
W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 80 这个说法我完全同意，其实把poker(live 和on-line 都一样的) 禁了肯定是对大部分人有好处的。 毕竟这东西只有少数人赚钱（赚钱的还要考虑win rate 值不值得），而大部分输钱的还真不如不打， 可是就有那么多人玩，所以说赌博害人吗。 当然这些人中很多人是意识不到自己的问题的, 给自己找借口是很容易的. 呵呵. 这个帖里就有好多很好的借口.
【在 I**n 的大作中提到】
: 我说句不好听的 the best thing for me in 2011 is the black friday
: 很多pro不高兴了 断了财路 不少人搬到canada 又怎样呢 忘了那个pro的采访了 少了
: 美国这个大鱼塘 谁都赚不到什么钱
|
|
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W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 81 回过头来说, poker pro(我是说以poker 为生的人, 而不是在1/2 上消遣赚点小钱的人
) 其实就是寄生社会. 其本身是没有任何价值的. 唯一可以用的借口就是给有钱人提供
了娱乐,觉得赢他们的钱理所当然. 这样说,那其实和被大款抱养, 拿钱给他们娱乐没有
区别了. 不过这年头笑贫不笑娼, 寄生也没有什么可耻的只要挣的钱够多 (被攻击的都
是挣得不够多的). wall street 的trader 说到底其实也是寄生, ebiz 的黄牛呐? 其
实这社会上寄生得太多了,这其实也是一种技术. 不是每个人都做得来的
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: 这个说法我完全同意，其实把poker(live 和on-line 都一样的) 禁了肯定是对大部分人有好处的。 毕竟这东西只有少数人赚钱（赚钱的还要考虑win rate 值不值得），而大部分输钱的还真不如不打， 可是就有那么多人玩，所以说赌博害人吗。 当然这些人中很多人是意识不到自己的问题的, 给自己找借口是很容易的. 呵呵. 这个帖里就有好多很好的借口.
|
c******q
发帖数: 456 | 82 说白了,打牌就为了两个目的,消遣和赚钱.能两者兼顾当然是每个人的梦想,但是对大多
数人来说只能满足第一个目的,特别是1/2上的.
我媳妇的态度最好了,"能赚点最好,输了就当雇一桌人陪我玩一天." |
k******t
发帖数: 257 | 83 It's hard to crush games with 9 frykings on the table.
Table selection is #1 key for winning by my experience. I was able to make $
1k/session average with 20/40 TAJ earlier, the tables were full of rich guys
happy to pay $160 with underpairs and you got 4 callers to pay your nut
hand for pot odds.
Suffered a back2back loss in Borgata, the game is substantively tougher.
because
【在 t****t 的大作中提到】
: 说的很真实，句句在理儿。
: 其实打牌真正能赚多少钱还的确挺难的。在牌桌上谁比谁精明到哪儿去也真不好说。欺
: 负那些什么经验都没有的鱼也不是长久的办法（靠天吃饭？）。我的感觉就是，打牌不
: 能强求，randomness给你的就是你的，不是你的也强求不来。45 suited call AA
: preflop big raise and hit是偶然事件。
: 我发这个贴就是想和大伙说，或许有比打牌更值得我们花时间的事情。至少我自己认为
: ，太多时间花在打牌上有点可惜。当我从打牌的过程中体会不到更多的感悟的时候，我
: 觉得就是应该dump it的时候了。
: 想到了rounders最后的场景，Michael真的比KGB打的好吗？我觉得我更佩服KGB，因为
: 他很现实，他承认结果，尤其他的那句话是我印象最深的台词：he beats me (because
|
g**s
发帖数: 1114 | 84 Manage the time, manage the effort and manage the expectation. We are not
full time poker player. 365 hours per year on live game table is just too
much as you still need drive/eat over there. That's lots of time.
Online vs Live. I think they are same game except that high volume online
games reduce the variance and amplifier the edge-- this is good/key for
winning player
Sitting in front of your computer has no difference sitting in the poker
room. For live, you need several hours session to get something. For online,
1-2 hours session is good enough.
I sill think online poker is 王道... |
s*******o
发帖数: 4896 | 85 online 对很多人来说最大的好处是不用花时间在路上，花钱在tips,meals上
而且online的rake比例也比live低，特别是很多online的rakeback
对很多人来说去casino也不是很现实，比如可能离家最近的得100，200miles
这花的油钱就相当可观了。
其实要说花时间，我看online未必，如果控制力好，可以做到每天1h，周末2h
BL之后我就严格控制这个时间，想想平时大家的其他娱乐每天占用的时间怎么
也得一个小时吧(看电影，看电视什么的)。从这个意义上讲，online对大多数
人是方便了很多，而且没什么太大的坏处，反而是去live，经常要一个session
去就要坐很长时间加上经常要熬夜，对作息不好啊。所以我觉得online的cash和
SNG业余选手真是不太需要花太多时间(前提是控制力，没有控制力不管是online/
live都是伤身的)。当然online 的tourney是另一回事了，这个时间限制得很死
而且常常一个session要7，8个小时。所以online touney的职业选手往往身体
都不怎么好的。
online,
【在 g**s 的大作中提到】
: Manage the time, manage the effort and manage the expectation. We are not
: full time poker player. 365 hours per year on live game table is just too
: much as you still need drive/eat over there. That's lots of time.
: Online vs Live. I think they are same game except that high volume online
: games reduce the variance and amplifier the edge-- this is good/key for
: winning player
: Sitting in front of your computer has no difference sitting in the poker
: room. For live, you need several hours session to get something. For online,
: 1-2 hours session is good enough.
: I sill think online poker is 王道...
|
p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 86 +1
definately more freedom playing online. Without strong displine and
mental toughness , nobody can be a healthy long term winner in poker , live
or online.
【在 s*******o 的大作中提到】
: online 对很多人来说最大的好处是不用花时间在路上，花钱在tips,meals上
: 而且online的rake比例也比live低，特别是很多online的rakeback
: 对很多人来说去casino也不是很现实，比如可能离家最近的得100，200miles
: 这花的油钱就相当可观了。
: 其实要说花时间，我看online未必，如果控制力好，可以做到每天1h，周末2h
: BL之后我就严格控制这个时间，想想平时大家的其他娱乐每天占用的时间怎么
: 也得一个小时吧(看电影，看电视什么的)。从这个意义上讲，online对大多数
: 人是方便了很多，而且没什么太大的坏处，反而是去live，经常要一个session
: 去就要坐很长时间加上经常要熬夜，对作息不好啊。所以我觉得online的cash和
: SNG业余选手真是不太需要花太多时间(前提是控制力，没有控制力不管是online/
|
s*********f
发帖数: 155 | 87 Poker is a game of people played by cards. It is very entertaining analyzing
other people's behavior and it doesn't hurt to make a little money on the
side. For me it is pure entertainment. Having a chance to play is already +
EV for me.
margin
【在 t****t 的大作中提到】
: To be frank, I play because I had a dream of crushing the game. In other
: words, I want to test myself and my system in real world to see if it's a
: winning one.
: Honestly, I have got what I wanted to know. The result is: I have no margin
: over other players and I ran even on the game.
: My mentality now is I have no more curiosity, and therefore, no motivation
: of continuing spending time on it. I admit I can't win with large sample
: size, then I shouldn't play any more.
: oh well, like what I always believe: I don't like coin flip, so I better
: find other thing with ++EV's that attract me.
|
s*********f
发帖数: 155 | 88 Playing for love and passion only works when you are winning. Human emotions
are fickle.
time
【在 l*****g 的大作中提到】
: Very good point. If you don't love poker, then it would be hard to put time
: on studying it. To me, poker is my biggest hobby and I am grateful that I
: can make some money by doing something I really enjoy.
:
: what
|
s*******o
发帖数: 4896 | 89 hehe，我仔细看了一边MM老师得两个帖子，我觉得讲的很有道理
这个其实无关online/live，而是跟自身有关
live
【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: +1
: definately more freedom playing online. Without strong displine and
: mental toughness , nobody can be a healthy long term winner in poker , live
: or online.
|
l*****g
发帖数: 1128 | 90 打TOURNAMENT确实很刺激，越到后面越紧张，我现在的问题就是经验太少，老是在
STACK一大把，一片大好前程的情况下犯关键错误，然后全盘皆输。请问CMIS91大侠，
有什么办法防止自己在关键时候犯关键错误吗？
【在 c****1 的大作中提到】
: 打牌主要还是要靠兴趣支撑的，毕竟往那一坐就是几个小时。这就是我为什么不喜欢
: cash game，更喜欢tournament。cash game太多的griding，头三个小时我还能头脑清
: 楚，后来越打越累。但是tournament，越打越激烈刺激，感觉肾上腺激素分泌越多，一
: 点不累，反而更兴奋。当年打sunday million和其他一些two day event，一打就是连
: 续10-11小时，每小时只能休息5分钟，但是我却一点都不觉得累（至少打的时候不觉得
: ）。当你赢了tournament，接受别人的congrats和interview，有极大的成就感。这种
: 满足感在一般的regular job中我很难得到。所以打牌除了挣钱，很大程度还是获得在
: 普通工作中获得不了的精神愉悦。
:
: good
|
|
|
g**s
发帖数: 1114 | 91 "Without strong displine and mental toughness , nobody can be a healthy
long term winner in poker , live or online." -- from player
【在 l*****g 的大作中提到】
: 同意。网络扑克还是太影响家庭了，也不健康，从早到晚坐到电脑前，伤眼睛伤身体。
|
l*****g
发帖数: 1128 | 92 坐电脑前几个小时和坐POKER ROOM里几个小时当然有区别。玩ONLINE你得一直盯着电脑
屏幕不动，玩LIVE你用得着一直盯着某个点不动几个小时吗？伤眼睛是肯定的，然后也
完全没什么SOCIAL ACTIVITY，就是纯赌博挣钱。还有，虽然可能ONLINE所需时间更少
，但强度觉得比LIVE大很多，因为你的大脑一直在思考在分析。连续玩ONLINE 1个小时
我头就会很痛，玩LIVE一个小时跟刚上桌没什么区别。从挣钱来讲，想挣大钱那还得靠
ONLINE，毕竟快，量大，但像版上大部分人也就是每个月挣个2000左右就算达到目标了
，那玩LIVE也可以完成这个目标啊。我两次VEGAS之行不都每次PROFIT2000多吗？所以
ONLINE对玩大钱，离赌场远的人确实更好，但对像我这种一点影响都没有。BF之前我就
早没玩了，直到VEGAS版聚我才知道原来大家都用软件，像我这种从来没用过的真是太
吃亏了，不过就算ONLINE回来了，我也不会去找软件去玩ONLINE，我的确认为LIVE更健
康更有意思。
online,
【在 g**s 的大作中提到】
: Manage the time, manage the effort and manage the expectation. We are not
: full time poker player. 365 hours per year on live game table is just too
: much as you still need drive/eat over there. That's lots of time.
: Online vs Live. I think they are same game except that high volume online
: games reduce the variance and amplifier the edge-- this is good/key for
: winning player
: Sitting in front of your computer has no difference sitting in the poker
: room. For live, you need several hours session to get something. For online,
: 1-2 hours session is good enough.
: I sill think online poker is 王道...
|
b*******s
发帖数: 1175 | 93 good sharing. I think most of us are in for the fun part. if you have the
winning as the ultimate goal, it usually will not get you there. Personally
I just love the hang of poker and the joy it brings to me. As you know, I
can not spend that much time in live poker. So my goal of each trip is to
have maximum fun, and either losing my allocated money or at least triple it
before I call it a quit. Over the years, I probably am still in the
negative since I paid too much tuition in the begining. But as long as I
still love the game, I will keep learning it and have the maximum fun out of
it. I am long past the wishful thinking that I am better than the majority
of players and can make a meaningful profit out of it. Again just like my
tennis, people will never understand how I can 饥肠辘辘 play 6 hours of
tennis. I am sure people who do not get the hang of poker will never
understand why we are into it so much for such a poor hourly rate.
So take it easy, buddy, and enjoy it in a different perspective and your
result may surprise you......
【在 t****t 的大作中提到】
: yeah. Because I had enough sample/data points in the past year,
: I did this calculation.
: The picture I see now is like this:
: 1. if it's purely for entertainment, it's way too much time involved.
: 2. if it's for investment/profitability, it's not making any money.
: Either of the above is wasting time. Things must change!
: I have some options here:
: 1. Quit playing poker and find other investment/business
: 2. become real casual/entertainment player
: 3. change my game and system and continue playing and analyze again
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p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 94 不要那些软件吃不了太多亏。我打HU SNG 几乎不用任何软件，就是用sharkscope.
com 查对手数据。至少我知道很多husng Pro, 向Livb112 也不从来用任何软件。
打cash game, 可以通过自己的观察，写notes. 不觉得会make difference. 那些数
据只能做一个参考。就是打rush 的时候，hud 很有用。
live 的variance 很大，毕竟牌打得少。
【 在 lziueng (追梦的人) 的大作中提到: 】 |
t****t
发帖数: 95 | 95 Yep, we share the same thought.
Personally
it
of
majority
【在 b*******s 的大作中提到】
: good sharing. I think most of us are in for the fun part. if you have the
: winning as the ultimate goal, it usually will not get you there. Personally
: I just love the hang of poker and the joy it brings to me. As you know, I
: can not spend that much time in live poker. So my goal of each trip is to
: have maximum fun, and either losing my allocated money or at least triple it
: before I call it a quit. Over the years, I probably am still in the
: negative since I paid too much tuition in the begining. But as long as I
: still love the game, I will keep learning it and have the maximum fun out of
: it. I am long past the wishful thinking that I am better than the majority
: of players and can make a meaningful profit out of it. Again just like my
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l*****g
发帖数: 1128 | 96 我那时主要是打RUSH，没RUSH之前玩90人的SNG还赢过好几次呢，但有了RUSH之后对其
他GAME兴趣全无，天天只打RUSH。
【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: 不要那些软件吃不了太多亏。我打HU SNG 几乎不用任何软件，就是用sharkscope.
: com 查对手数据。至少我知道很多husng Pro, 向Livb112 也不从来用任何软件。
: 打cash game, 可以通过自己的观察，写notes. 不觉得会make difference. 那些数
: 据只能做一个参考。就是打rush 的时候，hud 很有用。
:
: live 的variance 很大，毕竟牌打得少。
: 【 在 lziueng (追梦的人) 的大作中提到: 】
|
p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 97 如果有梨叔讲的那种home game, 还是live 好的多。呵呵。advanced entertainment
期待boston home game 之行。 .
http://www.mitbbs.com/article/TexasHoldem/31221009_4.html
【在 s*******o 的大作中提到】
: hehe，我仔细看了一边MM老师得两个帖子，我觉得讲的很有道理
: 这个其实无关online/live，而是跟自身有关
:
: live
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M********g
发帖数: 717 | 98 你可以说是寄生，但是我不觉得他们不产生任何价值。因为他们娱乐了输家。 输家宁
愿输钱，不愿意去上网看电视，说明这个对他们来说更有乐趣。
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: 回过头来说, poker pro(我是说以poker 为生的人, 而不是在1/2 上消遣赚点小钱的人
: ) 其实就是寄生社会. 其本身是没有任何价值的. 唯一可以用的借口就是给有钱人提供
: 了娱乐,觉得赢他们的钱理所当然. 这样说,那其实和被大款抱养, 拿钱给他们娱乐没有
: 区别了. 不过这年头笑贫不笑娼, 寄生也没有什么可耻的只要挣的钱够多 (被攻击的都
: 是挣得不够多的). wall street 的trader 说到底其实也是寄生, ebiz 的黄牛呐? 其
: 实这社会上寄生得太多了,这其实也是一种技术. 不是每个人都做得来的
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c****1
发帖数: 457 | 99 treat poker as sports. Do NBA players create anything for the society?
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: 回过头来说, poker pro(我是说以poker 为生的人, 而不是在1/2 上消遣赚点小钱的人
: ) 其实就是寄生社会. 其本身是没有任何价值的. 唯一可以用的借口就是给有钱人提供
: 了娱乐,觉得赢他们的钱理所当然. 这样说,那其实和被大款抱养, 拿钱给他们娱乐没有
: 区别了. 不过这年头笑贫不笑娼, 寄生也没有什么可耻的只要挣的钱够多 (被攻击的都
: 是挣得不够多的). wall street 的trader 说到底其实也是寄生, ebiz 的黄牛呐? 其
: 实这社会上寄生得太多了,这其实也是一种技术. 不是每个人都做得来的
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c****1
发帖数: 457 | 100 没有捷径，犯了一次错误，下次就不会再犯了，经验的积累很难有捷径。
我去年打WSOP期间打了一个1000+的200buy in game，第一名40K+，结果在还有15人的
时候犯了两个致命错误，结果死在13名，才2K。这个只能不断积累了
【在 l*****g 的大作中提到】
: 打TOURNAMENT确实很刺激，越到后面越紧张，我现在的问题就是经验太少，老是在
: STACK一大把，一片大好前程的情况下犯关键错误，然后全盘皆输。请问CMIS91大侠，
: 有什么办法防止自己在关键时候犯关键错误吗？
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g******s
发帖数: 211 | |
