f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | | P******o
发帖数: 37 | 2 两个人阴险地Slow play到River，然后都憋不住了. | f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 3 well, i was betting small all the way, lol.
【在 P******o 的大作中提到】
: 两个人阴险地Slow play到River，然后都憋不住了.
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 4 There is no reason at all for the pot to be 8$ at river with these two hands
. They both have a leak of enjoying playing meta game. Is this the meta game
you were talking about fryking? maybe we should call it meta leak game.. hoho..
【在 P******o 的大作中提到】
: 两个人阴险地Slow play到River，然后都憋不住了.
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 5 well, tell me what i should do differently then? lol.
1) pre-flop, AA at BTN vs. only BB, 3x. bigger/smaller or limp?
2) flop, 2nd nuts, checked to, 1/2 pot. bigger/smaller or check?
3) turn, potential flush hit, checked to, $1.5 to induce a check raise.
bigger/smaller or check?
actually i like BB's play too. BB vs. BTN, nuts and 2nd nuts, this is extremely
rare situation.
and this one has almost nothing to do with meta game, i know you don't like
it, hehe.
hands
game
hoho..
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: There is no reason at all for the pot to be 8$ at river with these two hands
: . They both have a leak of enjoying playing meta game. Is this the meta game
: you were talking about fryking? maybe we should call it meta leak game.. hoho..
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 6
well, tell me what i should do differently then? lol.
1) pre-flop, AA at BTN vs. only BB, 3x. bigger/smaller or limp?
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: well, tell me what i should do differently then? lol.
: 1) pre-flop, AA at BTN vs. only BB, 3x. bigger/smaller or limp?
: 2) flop, 2nd nuts, checked to, 1/2 pot. bigger/smaller or check?
: 3) turn, potential flush hit, checked to, $1.5 to induce a check raise.
: bigger/smaller or check?
: actually i like BB's play too. BB vs. BTN, nuts and 2nd nuts, this is extremely
: rare situation.
: and this one has almost nothing to do with meta game, i know you don't like
: it, hehe.
:
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 7 2) flop, so there's a $0.5 "value loss" here?
i don't mind mixing a real c-bet sometimes here on a diff. board texture,
but AA on A22 flop, this little extra may scare your opponents far more
often than not, with only one A and 2 dueces in the deck.
a lot of guys may even just check here to slow play. i do it just to make it
more like a c-bet stealing situation.
3) turn, a bigger diff. here, so about betting $4-5 for a $7 pot? or a $2.5
loss?
put ourselves in BB's shoes, what hands can he continue with? Ax or 2x are
way unlikely given the flop and my holding. flush draw (well, Ac on flop
makes it a little less likely) or middle PP make most sense. plus, he has a
good x% chance to bluff check raise with his air range too. all combined, i
guess $4+ is too strong for the 2nd barrel and may make him lay down correctly
for most hands in his range, and make his possible bluff check raise too
costly.
if he's indeed on a flush draw (hit on turn, or river with 1 club), he'll
pay me off well anyway. if he misses river, there's still a y% he may bluff,
after all, i'm not showing strength all the way.
and
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
:
: well, tell me what i should do differently then? lol.
: 1) pre-flop, AA at BTN vs. only BB, 3x. bigger/smaller or limp?
:
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 8 typed a long paragraph but lost it because of wrong password. Not going to
type everything again. but I will point out that your thought process is
flawed. if you want to take someone's whole stack, you have to build the pot
from flop. Overshove river to get value from nut flush is unrealistic when
you meet more competent player. And you lose value from everything else
other than the flush by betting the flop and turn small. 16X bb difference by turn is a lot by my calculation.
it
5
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: 2) flop, so there's a $0.5 "value loss" here?
: i don't mind mixing a real c-bet sometimes here on a diff. board texture,
: but AA on A22 flop, this little extra may scare your opponents far more
: often than not, with only one A and 2 dueces in the deck.
: a lot of guys may even just check here to slow play. i do it just to make it
: more like a c-bet stealing situation.
: 3) turn, a bigger diff. here, so about betting $4-5 for a $7 pot? or a $2.5
: loss?
: put ourselves in BB's shoes, what hands can he continue with? Ax or 2x are
: way unlikely given the flop and my holding. flush draw (well, Ac on flop
|
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 9 i guess i'd lose value in common cases if i act stronger earlier.
1) realistically, this is not a hand to take someone's stack. how often do
we see flopped nuts and 2nd nuts in these 2 spots?
2) he over bets river first, my over shove is just acting accordingly.
your 16BB "win" (or 13BB more than mine) on the turn is conditional. if we
simplify the turn situation into 4 categories:
1) he has a flush or good flush draw, where we get good value;
2) mid PPs, where we lose all value;
3) Ax or 2x (including some rare boats), where we get good value from strong
ones and lose value from weak Ax;
4) bluff range, we lose almost all value.
and assign x% to each, 13BB extra is only the optimal situation. we may look
at something like 6-8BB from EV's standpoint.
to
pot
when
by turn is a lot by my calculation.
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: typed a long paragraph but lost it because of wrong password. Not going to
: type everything again. but I will point out that your thought process is
: flawed. if you want to take someone's whole stack, you have to build the pot
: from flop. Overshove river to get value from nut flush is unrealistic when
: you meet more competent player. And you lose value from everything else
: other than the flush by betting the flop and turn small. 16X bb difference by turn is a lot by my calculation.
:
: it
: 5
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 10 3.25$ in the pot preflop
your betting
1.5$ flop pot 6.25
1.5$ turn pot 9.25
my betting.
flop 2.1$ pot 7.45
turn 5$ pot 17.45
16X bb difference for hands that will call flop turn but will not call river
. that include weak A, 2. Now if a flush card does not appear, i can bet 10$ (merely half pot) to get a call from weak A or might get raised by 2. how much are you going to bet to get a call? Do you think you have any value for over shoving?
middle pocket pair, no difference unless he got 2 outer on turn and river. 5
% probability on each street so they yield very little ev.
The difference for flush and flush draw will be much larger than this.
Simply because you can easily stack them with my play but will not do so
with yours if bb is competent. if the pot is 9$, he still has room to check raise and fold, but if the pot is 17$, he can only check raise all in vs your 3/4th pot bet. If he choose to lead bet, you can raise him 2X pot all in which he is much more likely to call than a 4X pot size raise all in. It is all about pot odds.
These number is by no means small, considering if you only increase 2bb/100 hand, you would have increased your win rate significant over time.
strong
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: i guess i'd lose value in common cases if i act stronger earlier.
: 1) realistically, this is not a hand to take someone's stack. how often do
: we see flopped nuts and 2nd nuts in these 2 spots?
: 2) he over bets river first, my over shove is just acting accordingly.
: your 16BB "win" (or 13BB more than mine) on the turn is conditional. if we
: simplify the turn situation into 4 categories:
: 1) he has a flush or good flush draw, where we get good value;
: 2) mid PPs, where we lose all value;
: 3) Ax or 2x (including some rare boats), where we get good value from strong
: ones and lose value from weak Ax;
| | | f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 11 oh, you're assuming $5 (i thought you were using $4) on the turn, that
explains 16BB. well, this is minor, can be ignored.
but frankly, you're over estimating the flush possibilites (which makes your
"charging them more" logic more reasonable than likely), especially those
hands with one club (or flush draw on turn). remember, the flop brings two
clubs, if he's still drawing on the turn, what a runner runner long shot
would that be for his flop call on A22? or give me a XcX range for his pre-flop/
flop calls?
i put him on a made flush on the turn x% of time, and that's why i want to
induce him to raise here. if i'm wrong, i want to keep weak Ax or mid PP to
stay too. flush draw is a possibility but not as large as your calculation.
river
5
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: 3.25$ in the pot preflop
: your betting
: 1.5$ flop pot 6.25
: 1.5$ turn pot 9.25
: my betting.
: flop 2.1$ pot 7.45
: turn 5$ pot 17.45
: 16X bb difference for hands that will call flop turn but will not call river
: . that include weak A, 2. Now if a flush card does not appear, i can bet 10$ (merely half pot) to get a call from weak A or might get raised by 2. how much are you going to bet to get a call? Do you think you have any value for over shoving?
: middle pocket pair, no difference unless he got 2 outer on turn and river. 5
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 12 it is very simple. Do you want to miss a chance to stack someone or do you
want to miss a chance to milk out 1 more small bet from a middle pair? It
would be a miracle for pocket 9s to call another bet on river. remember
people do not bluff as much as you think. Rely your value on inducing bluff is not
realistic over long run. If you want to stack someone you have to do your
own betting and build the pot gradually. Over bet river to get value is not
going to work vs competent player. smallish bet to induce then over shove
after being raised is what I called "fish line" to get value. It will not
work when you go up. | f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 13 if we're talking about general betting strategies, i tend to agree.
but if we're talking about this specific hand, or this specific hand (BTN vs
. BB in most "weakish" positions) to get value in common cases (both flopped
virtually the monster nuts is extremely rare), i don't think so.
why do you believe this is a hand that can build a pot/value from BB, or
even win his whole stack? or how could you foresee over-bet/over-shoved
river situations on the turn?
our opponent may have strong, semi-strong, weak, or air hands, we can't be
optimistic only about the "good" situations, like betting more to build a
pot, and betting even more on river to give them "good" odds to call. (80%
of times there won't even be a river, hehe) this is only the "ideal" way that
we "plan" for him, we need opponents to co-oporate too. betting 2/3 pot here
has a good chance to let them make the right decision, which is a leak too
in the long term.
actually, the real diff. between yours and my plays (mostly turn) is the
judgement that how often our BB has a strong hand here and how strong.
bluff is not
not
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: it is very simple. Do you want to miss a chance to stack someone or do you
: want to miss a chance to milk out 1 more small bet from a middle pair? It
: would be a miracle for pocket 9s to call another bet on river. remember
: people do not bluff as much as you think. Rely your value on inducing bluff is not
: realistic over long run. If you want to stack someone you have to do your
: own betting and build the pot gradually. Over bet river to get value is not
: going to work vs competent player. smallish bet to induce then over shove
: after being raised is what I called "fish line" to get value. It will not
: work when you go up.
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 14 this board is so straight forward. You can get a lot of value by betting
from a A, a 2 and flush draws, maybe a gut shot. You will not get much from
anything else no matter how you play it. But if he does have one of those
hand, you need to either keep betting for value before scary card comes out
or build the pot to be in position to take his whole stack when he makes his
draws. Neither is by mini-betting, but by betting strong and build up the
pot earlier.
Just because 1 or two donks bluffed you with their whole stacks a few of times when you have the nuts by inducing, it does not make it a good play in general. | f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 15 A22 flop (and i hold AA), how many Ax or 2x (seriously, x of what?) hands
exist AND can call preflop? even so, how many Ax or 2x will slow play both
flop and turn against a BTN, who is likely opening light??? and a flush draw
board?
flush draws? only runner runner or two suited, how likely is this?
1) Ac is on flop, would KcX, QcX (or those have little drawing to strong
runner runner flush) call light pre and flop here? AsKc, AsQc, AsJc, would u
play like this?
2) two clubs, KcJc, QcTc, etc., would you only check call turn against
button and out of position? if so, indeed it's losing value play.
frankly, the two above categories do exist, but how likely? (again, my AA
and A22 flop, how many combinations are left?) and no way they'd play like
this 90% of time, so your 2/3 pot bet on turn (which is strong, plus two
prior bets) won't get many customers at all, which translates to we'll get
NOTHING on the turn 90% of time (unless you do believe 90% is too high here).
could you list 5 hands that would play the same way preflop, flop and call
your turn 2/3 pot?
holding the nuts (though 2nd here) and betting the "standard" way against a
weakish position (BB) on a very clear board is right? seriously. if we're talking
about an MP or LP, i agree with you, although i may still mix them up x%
of time.
inducing them to check raise on the turn for real, or for semi, or for air
is surely one possiblity, 2/3 pot kills most of them. even a weakish Ax
(medium to top of his range) has good chance to fold, and you expect them
to call yet another 2/3 pot on river out of position? (no matter what card
comes). this value is kind of imaginary to me.
yes, we bet for value, but this value is not value at all unless getting
called, if the customer only has a very narrow calling range, betting too
much (even only 2/3 pot here) is killing value. we confirm to them folding
90% of their hands here is the right play.
from
those
out
his
times when you have the nuts by inducing, it does not make it a good play in
general.
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: this board is so straight forward. You can get a lot of value by betting
: from a A, a 2 and flush draws, maybe a gut shot. You will not get much from
: anything else no matter how you play it. But if he does have one of those
: hand, you need to either keep betting for value before scary card comes out
: or build the pot to be in position to take his whole stack when he makes his
: draws. Neither is by mini-betting, but by betting strong and build up the
: pot earlier.
: Just because 1 or two donks bluffed you with their whole stacks a few of times when you have the nuts by inducing, it does not make it a good play in general.
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