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Peter Hook Reflects On Joy Division & New Order
Posted by Paul Gleason on Mar 04, 2013 3 Comments
As bassist for Joy Division and New Order perhaps the 2 most important ban
ds of the post-punk movement in England Peter Hook is responsible for crea
ting some of the most memorable music of the past 35 years.
Joy Division抯 albums Unknown Pleasures and Closer are all-time classics, as
are their non-album singles Transmission, Love Will Tear Us Apart, Dead Sou
ls, and Atmosphere.
New Order never made a bad album, with Power, Corruption & Lies perhaps bein
g their finest, while Blue Monday, Bizarre Love Triangle, Perfect Kiss, True
Faith, and Regret are some of the catchiest singles ever released.
Rock Cellar Magazine caught up with Peter Hook on his tour promoting his end
lessly entertaining new book Unknown Pleasures: Inside Joy Division. Hook d
elved into the inner workings of Joy Division and New Order, shenanigans wit
h the Duke and Duchess of York, Hook抯 recent split with his former New Orde
r bandmates, and his take on Manchester bands The Stone Roses, The Smiths, a
nd Oasis.
Peter Hook; (photo: Julien Lachauss閑)
Rock Cellar Magazine: How for you does being on tour with a book compare to
being on tour with a band?
Peter Hook: This is my 2nd book in England, but my 1st book here, so I have
done the usual rigamarole. All of this is sort of expected. The oddest th
ing is that you find talking a lot harder work than playing. It抯 weird y
ou get the build up at a gig, and then you go out and you play and you sweat
and get your rocks off, but really, talking, you don抰 get your rocks off.
I think you抮e missing the physicality of it. I can抰 get used to the tal
king bit as being the main attraction. I mean, after 30-odd years, I抦 use
d to the gig being the main attraction or at least something musical being t
he main attraction, be it dj-ing or whatever, so it抯 hard to get used to it
, I must admit.
RCM: Plus everyone抯 sitting down?
PH: You know, I can still get my rocks off at a seated gig. It never used
to be like that. A lot of fans are young; a bit surprising how many are yo
ung. A lot of them are older, though, and they prefer to sit! And if you w
ant to get up and have a dance, you can do that.
RCM: What do you consider young?
PH: Anyone younger than me which is probably about 95% of the population
of England! No, I mean the thing is, when I first started doing the Joy Div
ision stuff again, I did think the audience would be a lot of old duffers li
ke me. But they weren抰: they were very young, from 16 upwards.
RCM: Does it feel different now playing Joy Division to a much younger crowd
?
PH: Because I don抰 consider myself to be old, it just feels the same as whe
n I started! But when you抮e playing to young people, you抮e aware that the
y抮e younger, but it doesn抰 become an issue.
RCM: One of the great things about your book Unknown Pleasures: Inside Joy
Division that is that the band has this dark, goth image, yet you reveal a b
unch of playful rock and roll guys.
PH: I was a little bit worried when I wrote the book about debunking all th
e myths. Because, to be honest with you, the wonderful mystification, the d
eification, has helped. That whole thing: live fast, die young, leave a goo
d-looking corpse, being the gothic innovators, coming from the darkness in t
he 0s in England and all that lot does actually help your reputation.
But the thing I thought was lacking was the human side, the humanity involve
d. I didn抰 think anything that was written about Joy Division actually bro
ught out the human side of any of us. The wonderful thing was for the 4 of y
ou to be happy and very focused at that time very enthusiastic and very dr
iven was literally the best time you抳e had. It wasn抰 sullied by busines
s, or celebrity, or money.
RCM: You talk about how every song you wrote was great.
PH: Yeah! When we started and this was one of the reasons why Bernard [Su
mner, Joy Division guitarist and keyboardist; and New Order singer, guitaris
t, and keyboardist] and I hated Unknown Pleasures - was that when we started
at 21, we were just writing really shit punk songs, but we loved the aggres
sion and the attitude. And then within 6 months if that you were writin
g very mature, adult songs that actually belied your age. You know, if some
body said, 揥ho抎 you think wrote that song? A 21 year-old punk or a 30-odd
year experienced musician?Most people would go, 揑t must be the experienc
ed musician because of the style and the way the songs were shaping up.br />
But Bernard and I were still punks, and we still wanted the aggression. And
live we actually had that. And the thing was that Martin [Hannett, Joy Divis
ion and New Order producer]梩hank God!梤ecognized that the songs that you we
re writing were very mature beyond your years and had the ability to be fant
astic songs forever, whereas Bernard and I just wanted a quick fix.
Bernard Sumner & Peter Hook
RCM: You hated Unknown Pleasures?
PH: I thought Unknown Pleasures was terrible. I couldn抰 really fully appre
ciate it until I came to do the music again in 2010. Because I just never l
istened to it!
Musicians are allowed to do whatever they fucking want basically. They can b
e indulgent, selfish, arrogant, stupid nbsp; they抮e encouraged to be like that
. It was only when I sat down to transcribe the lyrics because I found th
at nearly all the lyrics on the internet were wrong that I thought, 揑an w
ouldn抰 sing that. That doesn抰 make sense.nbsp; And I thought, 揑抣l put the
record on to listen to the lyrics.nbsp; And when I was listening to the lyrics,
I thought, 揊uck me, it sounds magnificent!I thought, 揧ou idiot.I neve
r said that about Closer. I抳e always loved Closer it抯 one of my favorit
e records. But Unknown Pleasures, I just never got it. And now whenever I
drive past Martin抯 cemetery, I always go, 揝orry, Martin!It was actually
quite embarrassing.
RCM: Bernard thought the same thing?
PH: We do agree on some things, and that was one of them. Martin, thank God
, had the foresight to realize that we were stupid. It was quite weird actu
ally because it was the first time you抎 not gotten your own way. And I rem
ember me and Bernard saying, 揥e don抰 like it. There抯 not enough guitar.
It抯 not aggressive enough. It抯 not fast enough. It has to be fast and a
ggressive.And everyone disagreed. and it was like, oh fuck, it was the fi
rst time it happened. Tony disagreed, Rob [Gretton, Joy Division and New Or
der manager]disagreed, Ian disagreed, Steve [Morris, Joy Division and New Or
der drummer] disagreed, but me and Bernard would be like, 揙h, fuck.br />
RCM: The Joy Division band itself was collaborative, though, correct?
PH: It was very, very balanced. The whole thing was very fairly done. Steve
was amazing at doing his own riffs, and his riffs were fantastic drum riffs
in Joy Division and also New Order. He was quite unique in his addition; yo
u抎 be unique in yours; and Bernard was unique in his. But they were all qu
ite divorced from each other. They were all very separate riffs. But when y
ou put them together, there was a massive strength in them. And Ian must hav
e gone, 揙h fuck, this is great!br />
RCM: Was Ian in the room when you guys were working?
PH: Yeah, yeah! He used to orchestrate the music. He was fantastic.
RCM: Your producer Martin Hannett helped to create sort of a beautiful sonic
collage. All those drum pieces. How did that gel with your Sex Pistols-li
ke attitude in the studio?
PH: What Martin used to do was put you in the studio and record the song. T
he song would be 4-minutes long, and it would be done live. And then he wou
ld split the instruments and record them all separately. And by 揳ll,I me
an the high hat, the snare, the tom-toms, everything. Everything would be s
eparately recorded, and then the bass, and then the guitar on top, and the v
ocals.
Martin did come across as a complete madman and he was the boss. We were
there to do his bidding, and he was a bit like a mysterious wizard. We were
very inexperienced, and we just didn抰 know what we were talking about. So
you were really happy in a way to let him tell you what to do.
RCM: Did he play back things as he was working on them?
PH: No! He hated musicians. He just wanted you out of the fucking studio,
basically. And he was right! He just wanted you to do your bit and then g
et the fuck out. But me and Bernard didn抰 like being spoken to like that
because we were the ambitious ones. We were the ego-driven ones. And we wan
ted to be the ones that stayed there and told him what to do.
And as we got more experienced, it became more of a clash. And the big clas
h happened very gradually up to Closer. Then the big clash came in New Order
because Martin was very upset about Ian. He was devastated when Ian died,
and he didn抰 know what to do with the group. He sort of knew what to do wi
th the music, but he didn抰 know what to do with the vocals. So when we cam
e to do the vocals, we felt he was almost deliberately obstreperous. He was
difficult, and I thought he was particularly hard on Bernard while he was d
oing it because we needed a lot of help, and he was being the opposite.
Bernard Sumner, Peter Hook, and Ian Curtis of Joy Divison
RCM: How did Bernard take over as singer?
PH: It was funny, really. It happened quite oddly. We did Ceremony, and Mart
in thought we were all shit.
RCM: Seems like he抯 trying to sound like Ian on that track. He sings in a
low register.
PH: Right. A lot of the early New Order stuff was in a low register. He d
idn抰 really find his voice until probably about halfway through Power, Corr
uption & Lies. That抯 when he found how to write for his own voice. It was
John Robie, actually, who taught him how to write in his own register, and
I thought, in a funny way, it changed our music forever when he did that.
RCM: Was Gillian [Gilbert, New Order keyboardist] involved at that point?
PH: No, I抦 afraid to say that Gillian doesn抰 have a lot to do with the mu
sic. Gillian used to help, but she was never a huge part of the writing. Th
e writing was always done by the 3 of us. Bernard did most of the keyboards
.
RCM: So back to how Bernard became the singerbr />
PH: So, Martin Hannett couldn抰 get over the loss of Ian. But me and Barne
y (Sumner) were tussling for who was going to be lead singer. When we were r
ecording Ceremony, Martin was using a mix of all 3 of us which I thought w
as actually pretty good but that he hated. And he just made no bones abou
t saying it, and really it抯 not what you want to hear when you抮e strugglin
g to replace your lead singer. My memory of it is we had the mix of the 3 v
ocals, and just as we were about to mix it, Bernard said, 揕et me have 1 mor
e go!And for him to have one more go, we had to go over the other tracks.
But the funny thing was regardless of the ego of doing it, Bernard singing a
ctually gave New Order a completely new way of working. The fact that he抎
sing and then play guitar gave you your style. New Order抯 musical style of
me and Steve and Gillian playing Bernard抯 keyboard lines through the s
ong, and then him coming in with the guitar on the breaks works perfectly.
If I would have sang, you wouldn抰 have got that style that cross between
rock and dance. It wouldn抰 have happened if Steve would have sung or if I
would have sung.
RCM: Do you believe Ian抯 lyrics could have worked with New Order and the d
ance music?
PH: Yeah, he would have made it work. The thing is that Barney was obsesse
d with technology. He loved it, and he devoured it as it came in, and he was
very, very good at it. That wouldn抰 have changed. He抯 a fucking genius. H
e抯 a maestro. Steve was into the drum machines and the drum synths and all
that lot. So that would have happened. Rob encouraged it completely. The m
usic would have happened exactly the same way.
RCM: Was Bernard the one to introduce synths into Joy Division?
PH: Yeah, he built his own. It was called the Transcendent 2000, which he bu
ilt from a kit. (laughs) He got a part every month!
RCM: You抮e also a big fan of Bernard抯 guitar playing, correct?
PH: It amused me that he teamed up with Johnny Marr [in the alt-dance band
Electronic] and he let Johnny Marr play guitar. I think he抯 better than Jo
hnny Marr!
RCM: You think he抯 better than Johnny Marr?
PH: He is because he writes more memorable guitar lines. If you listen to Jo
y Division, and you listen to New Dawn Fades, Shadowplay you hear fantasti
c, monumental guitar. Name me a great riff of Johnny Marr抯 apart from How S
oon Is Now? New Dawn Fades, Insight, Twenty Four Hours now that抯 fucking
great guitar work.
RCM: The vocal parts and lyrics you would work on together?
PH: Bernard became the main vocal writer, but Steve and I would help him ve
ry much finish everything up. Barney would get a rough idea and then we抎 a
ll do the words together. And that never changed except for the odd song whe
re he抎 do it on his own, like Love Vigilantes. That was one he did alone.
Most of them were written by the 3 of us, together.
RCM: In a room?
PH: In the studio. I mean, they were 5:00 in the morning lyrics! You were wo
rking your butt off to do them.
RCM: Talk about Bernard as a lyricistbr />
PH: He抯 actually quite a good lyricist, and I do like and admire what he d
oes very, very much, I do. I can抰 deny him. I mean, if you look at songs li
ke 1963, The Perfect Kiss, Love Vigilantes, you have to admit the guy抯 a fu
cking genius. He抯 really very, very good at what he does.
RCM: Can we take you back to 1993?
PH: (laughs)I wish you fucking could.
RCM: New Order抯 Republic.
PH: Funnily enough, that was the only album that aged me.
RCM: One specific track nbsp; Regret. Your bass work and your bass solo in the
middle how did you came up with that?
PH: The interesting thing about Regret - as much as I hate to say it is t
hat it was probably the last true New Order song because it was done by the
4 of us together, even though we were doing it with the producer. We did th
at track at Steve and Gillian抯 farm, and it was the only one that we did to
gether. Bernard came and put the guitar on in the farm, and it was finished
in the farm. All the others were written in Real World in Bath with Stephe
n Hague.
RCM: So you抮e saying the recording experience on Republic wasn抰 a good on
e?
PH: Republic was a very interesting LP because we had split up, and Bernard
had gone off to work with Johnny Marr in Electronic, and we had to be broug
ht back together again because Factory [New Order抯 record company] was on t
he verge of bankruptcy, as was the Hacienda [New Order抯 Manchester club].
So the only way we could stave off the bankruptcy was to do the album.
RCM: So you didn抰 want to regroup at that point?
PH: No. We抎 split up. Because of the personal guarantees the band had i
n the business, we stood to lose our houses if we didn抰 to the LP to refina
nce. As it happened, it didn抰 really make a difference both companies w
ent bankrupt and we could have saved ourselves the agony of doing the LP.
Bernard in particular hated doing it because he couldn抰 fucking stand the H
acienda nbsp; he thought that it had destroyed everything. And he didn抰 want
to do it to save Factory because he thought Factory had made too many fuckup
s of their own. His opinion was why should we be at their beck and call? N
ow Rob did have a vested interest because he had a 3rd of Factory Records. S
o there was a huge conflict of interest in doing it.
It started off quite well with Regret, which is quite ironic, because after
that, it went completely fucking downhill. Me, Gillian, and Stephen had don
e a lot of work on our own. By the time we got to Bath, Bernard was very unh
appy about doing the whole bleeding thing. We were actually really close
the 3 of us on that particular record, but when we got back to recording,
Bernard started changing everything.
RCM: The songs? By 揺verythingyou mean
PH: (laughs) All of them! He changed all of them! What he did was, because
there were no vocals done, you were in one studio doing the music, and then
he抎 take the music off to another studio and do the vocals with Owen Morri
s from Oasis fame. We抎 go in and listen and go, 揙h, this sounds different
!And he抎 say, 揙h, I had to get rid of that because I couldn抰 get a voca
l line or it wasn抰 inspiring.And then it was every track! And I was like
, 揙h, fuck!Really all the music that us 3 had done was gone for all inten
ts and purposes.
RCM: Producer Stephen Hague wasn抰 in control, then?
PH: It was the first time we had used a producer, and the idea for using a
producer, Bernard felt, was to stop us from arguing. I always said to him th
e same thing, you know: 揥e make better music when we argue.So you抮e in a
funny position, and what happened then was that basically Steve and Gillian
got written out. And in the end, we were all like, 揙h, fuck, we don抰 car
e what happens, just get me out of here!And then Stephen Hague says to me,
揌ooky, we need to put you back on!nbsp; And I was like, 揙h, fucking great!
So I had to do it all again!
Photo: Timothy Norris
RCM: Re-do all of your bass parts?
PH: What he got me to do was 47 tracks of bass on 2 24-track machines. Play
ing over and over again for days and days, and then he抎 collate the riffs a
nd have the best riffs. But the trouble was, it wasn抰 like a computer past
ing where you could alter everything.
RCM: So you basically had to learn then, what he pasted together?
PH: Yeah, to play it live. The strange thing was, when you came to hear it,
you抎 done it, but you hadn抰 done it. So you were hearing it, and it soun
ded really good. There is actually a lot of bass on Republic. Even though I
say that it sounds a lot more like Electronic to me than it does New Order
apart from Regret. That抯 my opinion.
It was such an unhappy period for all of us. I mean, there were a lot of gri
evances that were aired while we did it, but at least got to put my bit back
on at the end. Poor Steve and Gillian!
RCM: Would you ever consider writing a book on New Order? Or does the dust h
ave to settle before you can do that?
PH: I was thinking that I wouldn抰 have written the Joy Division book had w
e been together. If I sat down with Bernard, it would抳e gone, 揧ou know th
at story about the sleeping bag, mate? Do you mind if I put it in? He proba
bly would抳e gone, 揘o, I don抰 want you to do that.nbsp; So the thing is, prob
ably if you were together, you wouldn抰 have done the book the way it is.
RCM: For you, when was the last good period with New Order?
PH: (laughs) Just before Ian died. Relationships go up and down. The thing
, it抯 a very difficult thing to talk about because of what has happened in
the past year; it抯 the pinnacle of our divorce. This is like cutting the sl
eeves off your suit and sawing the dog in half.
I mean, what happened with us is that over the years, your tastes have chang
ed. And I think that like with any group, you start off being completely tog
ether, and then as time goes on like in any relationship they start to d
iverge. And you have things keeping you together: the kids, the dog, the hou
se, the mortgage. Then, all of the sudden, it becomes too much for you, and
you have to split.
I felt in 2006 that we were too far apart to carry on and, in my opinion,
Bernard didn抰 seem to give a shit about New Order, whether it lived or died
梩hat was the impression I had. And I thought it was time to split the band.
I thought, 揟his band is over.br />
I must admit that when Lost Sirens actually came out, and I listened to it,
it actually made me very happy because after the year that I had had that
I抦 still having - hearing the music, that was really good music, I thought,
well fuck, that was good!
It actually made you feel a hell of a lot better. Because what you do is th
at when you have any problems, like in any relationship, you focus on the ba
d bits, and that made you realize that you have some great times, and did do
some really great stuff.
RCM: There抯 a crazy story that抯 circulated involving New Order and Fergie
and Andrew. Can you tell us about it?
PH: It was fantastic. It was our get-back-together moment. We got back to
gether because this guy had offered us a shitload of money to play at this c
lub in L.A. called The Stock Exchange. It was London Fashion Week. Fergie an
d Andrew had come over to meet the English designers, and this lunatic who w
as running the club because he had a huge budget he thought he抎 bring h
is favorite band over to play for English Royalty!
RCM: Which was you.
PH: We came over not knowing what the fuck was going on. We did the sound c
heck and everything, but then when we came to play, we were so loud that the
Secret Service pulled all the leads out of the PA, and the whole fucking th
ing blew up. We were off our fucking heads! Mounted! And someone says to us
[in a nasally American accent], 揂re you the English guys?And we were, 揧e
ah, we抮e the English guys.So they took us out, and put us in a lineup. S
o we met Fergie and Andrew who thought we were the English designers. But
we were actually the fucking band, off our tits! And grinning!
RCM: Sounds like you抣l have to write a New Order book now and put that sto
ry in it.
PH: It was fucking unbelievable. It was the maddest night. In a funny way,
yeah, that抯 why you抳e got to do a New Order book, because those happenings
we used to have were absolutely insane. My mother phoned me up the next da
y and said, 揧ou were on the 10:00 news last night!-which is the biggest n
ews program in England 搈eeting the Duke and Duchess of York!br />
RCM: You also have worked with The Stone Roses? What was that like?
PH: I produced Elephant Stone [1988]. It was great. They were fantastic to
work with. Their manager was a lunatic an old friend of mine.
The only problem they had was that Reni was convinced that he was a better v
ocalist than Ian Brown. And I suppose in a kind of proficient, X Factor kin
d of way, you would say that Reni was. But Ian had such a unique way of doi
ng his vocal lines and singing that it left Reni in the shade. So Reni was
technically better, but Ian had bags more personality, bags more individuali
ty.
Reni抯 a fucking great drummer. He doesn抰 need to sing. I think Reni is one
of the best rock drummers there ever was. He抯 definitely on a par with St
eve Morris. I tried to get Reni for Freebass, but he wouldn抰 come out of r
etirement, which was a great shame.
RCM: What other Manchester bands do you appreciate?
PH: Funnily enough, I appreciate them all now even The Smiths.
RCM: In your mind, are there any comparisons that can be drawn between Joy
Division and The Smiths? Who抯 better?!
PH: (laughs) They both make great music! To my mind, I found Joy Division抯
music not vocals to be better than The Smithsmusic. But vocally, we抮
e on a par. Morrissey抯 on a par with Ian, but in a completely different st
yle and a completely different fashion.
We were in competition with The Smiths. There was a great rivalry between us
, and once you get old enough to realize it抯 like jealousy. Jealousy is
a very powerful emotion when you抮e a kid, and it leads to a competitive att
itude. But as you get older, you realize, who gives a fuck? And all groups
are in competition with each other.
RCM: Morrissey sort of kept a feud going?
PH: There was a lot of competition in the early days. Morrissey was very o
utspoken about Joy Division which [manager] Rob Gretton hated. He really
did fucking hate Morrissey going on about Ian. And they had a wonderful, wo
nderful upset in the Hacienda, when Morrissey was mouthing off about Joy Div
isionbr />
Rob Gretton said to him, 揊ucking trouble with you Morrissey is that you don
抰 have the guts to kill yourself, like Ian!nbsp; Morrissey went fucking mad!
Morrissey went mad and stormed off! But, yeah, I抎 just put it down to comp
etition梐nd jealousy, probably.
RCM: All of this seems kind of ridiculous now, huh?
PH: Who cares? When you get to 56, you think, 揥ho gives a fuck?Really, d
oes anybody give a fuck? They抮e both fantastic groups; they both put Manch
ester on the map; they抮e both full of wonderful, wonderful musicians who ha
ve created a niche in the world.
If The Smiths came back now, they would fucking cream the world! New Order
came back; they抳e done really, really well. But it wouldn抰 be like The S
miths coming back.
In Manchester, New Order played 2 nights at the Apollo for 6,000 people. The
Stone Roses come back and do 225,000 people in Manchester? That doesn抰 se
em fair to me. I mean, for the Roses to come back and be as big as they are,
when they only really did 1records, that抯 fucking amazing! Isn抰 it?
RCM: What do you attribute it to?
PH: I don抰 know. Do you?
RCM: Maybe there抯 some connection between their popularity and Oasispopul
arity. Maybe Oasis ripped them off?
PH: To me Oasis ripped The Beatles off, But Noel抯 a great songwriter. I me
an Manchester has got some fucking great groups, come on! It抯 fucking ridi
culous!
Related Post:
Joy Division Exposed From The Inside in Raunchy, Funny 慤nknown PleasuresM
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423 92 0 13 0
3 Responses to " Peter Hook Reflects On Joy Division & New Order "
Peter Hook Reflects On Joy Division & New Order says:
March 4, 2013 at 10:11 pm
[...] Peter Hook: This is my 2nd book in England, but my 1st book here, so
I have done the usualFull article at rockcellarmagazine.com [...]
Reply
Peter Hook Reflects On Joy Division & New Order says:
March 4, 2013 at 10:16 pm
[...] It started off quite well with Regret, which is quite iroFull articl
e at rockcellarmagazine.com [...]
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Joy Division Exposed From The Inside in Raunchy, Funny 慤nknown PleasuresM
emoir (Review) | Rock Cellar Magazine says:
March 11, 2013 at 9:03 am
[...] Interview The 9 Lives of Julie 慍atwomanNewmar Music Peter Hook Refl
ects On Joy Division & New Order Every Picture Tells a Story Photos of Iconi
c Rock and Roll Statues Polls / Games / [...]
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RCM: The vocal parts and lyrics you would work on together? PH: Bernard be
came the main vocal writer, but Steve and I would help him very much finish
everything up. Barney would get a rough idea and then we抎 all do the words
together. And that never changed except for the odd song where he抎 do it o
n his own, like Love Vigilantes. That was one he did alone. Most of them we
re written by the 3 of us, together. - See more at: http://www.rockcellarmag
azine.com/2013/03/04/peter-hook-interview-joy-division-new-order/#sthash.nUl
w9L3j.dpuf
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