T**********e
发帖数: 29576 | 1 以前Detroit Symphony Orchestra面试乐手都是隔着一道帘子，力求评委的决定不受肤
色，种族和长相等等因素影响。
1989年被告结构性歧视黑人 (institutionalized discrimination)，因为隔着帘子太
多黑人考不上了。后来DSO就专门招了个黑人。
Nationally, African-Americans make up only about 1.4 percent of major
orchestras.Experts cite many reasons, including a legacy of racism in the
arts, school music cuts, fewer opportunities for minority children to study
a musical instrument and a lack of role models.
Another reason may be blind auditions, held behind a screen. The competition
is stiff; often an orchestra will receive 200 applicants for one vacancy.
Diversity in orchestras is a national dilemma. In 1989, the Detroit Symphony
Orchestra was threatened with losing a $1.3 state subsidy unless it hired a
second black musician. In a highly controversial move, it side-stepped the
blind audition and hired an African-American.
Shortly after, the Detroit Symphony founded an African-American Fellowship
Program to increase its talent pool of minority players. Young black
musicians join the orchestra in rehearsals and performances. They receive
coaching and audition preparation tips from orchestra members. |
c******k
发帖数: 8998 | |
N*****m
发帖数: 42603 | 3 融入了hip-hop和蓝调
【在 c******k 的大作中提到】
: 拉小提琴也能听出黑人味道？
|
T**********e
发帖数: 29576 | 4
不是啦，institutionalized discrimination不需要在程序上有歧视的证据，只要最后
很多黑人来报考都考不上就可以成立。
纠正institutionalized discrimination的标准手法是，改变考试标准，引入AA，给黑
人降低标准，直到黑人多到没人再complain为止。
【在 c******k 的大作中提到】
: 拉小提琴也能听出黑人味道？
|
w********e
发帖数: 8594 | 5 这institutionalized discrimination听起来像是个非常扯淡的东西。照这样说，啥筛
选过程都应当做成一个抽签系统。
不过呢，美国也应当为祖上还点债。 |
c*****g
发帖数: 21627 | 6 美国欠债最多的是印弟安人，其次是华人，还轮不到黑人
【在 w********e 的大作中提到】
: 这institutionalized discrimination听起来像是个非常扯淡的东西。照这样说，啥筛
: 选过程都应当做成一个抽签系统。
: 不过呢，美国也应当为祖上还点债。
|
c********g
发帖数: 15629 | 7 公平的东西就是歧视了，太搞笑了。
study
competition
【在 T**********e 的大作中提到】
: 以前Detroit Symphony Orchestra面试乐手都是隔着一道帘子，力求评委的决定不受肤
: 色，种族和长相等等因素影响。
: 1989年被告结构性歧视黑人 (institutionalized discrimination)，因为隔着帘子太
: 多黑人考不上了。后来DSO就专门招了个黑人。
: Nationally, African-Americans make up only about 1.4 percent of major
: orchestras.Experts cite many reasons, including a legacy of racism in the
: arts, school music cuts, fewer opportunities for minority children to study
: a musical instrument and a lack of role models.
: Another reason may be blind auditions, held behind a screen. The competition
: is stiff; often an orchestra will receive 200 applicants for one vacancy.
|
w********r
发帖数: 1189 | 8 In US you can sue anybody and any organization (including the federal
government) for any reason. The question is if you have a case and if you
can convince the judge or jury.
Many a time there is a cost, such as money and/or time and/or emotion...
If you file too many no-merit lawsuits, you may damage your credit as a
citizen. You have to balance your pros and cons, lost and gains etc.
Public organizations are usually an easy target for lawsuit because such
organizations are reluctant to fight a citizen on court, many a time they
offer the plaintiff an offer, even they do nothing wrong, mainly for public
relationship reasons.
For example, a public university rarely pursue a taxpayer or private company
with a lawsuit even they owe university a signficant amount of money. If a
taxpayer or private company sue the university, the university usually
resolves the issue out of the court room.
BTW, I do not think the guy could win this case, unless the african
americans are the largest donators to the orchestra.
study
competition
【在 T**********e 的大作中提到】
: 以前Detroit Symphony Orchestra面试乐手都是隔着一道帘子，力求评委的决定不受肤
: 色，种族和长相等等因素影响。
: 1989年被告结构性歧视黑人 (institutionalized discrimination)，因为隔着帘子太
: 多黑人考不上了。后来DSO就专门招了个黑人。
: Nationally, African-Americans make up only about 1.4 percent of major
: orchestras.Experts cite many reasons, including a legacy of racism in the
: arts, school music cuts, fewer opportunities for minority children to study
: a musical instrument and a lack of role models.
: Another reason may be blind auditions, held behind a screen. The competition
: is stiff; often an orchestra will receive 200 applicants for one vacancy.
|
w********e
发帖数: 8594 | 9 Good one.
public
【在 w********r 的大作中提到】
: In US you can sue anybody and any organization (including the federal
: government) for any reason. The question is if you have a case and if you
: can convince the judge or jury.
: Many a time there is a cost, such as money and/or time and/or emotion...
: If you file too many no-merit lawsuits, you may damage your credit as a
: citizen. You have to balance your pros and cons, lost and gains etc.
: Public organizations are usually an easy target for lawsuit because such
: organizations are reluctant to fight a citizen on court, many a time they
: offer the plaintiff an offer, even they do nothing wrong, mainly for public
: relationship reasons.
|
D**S
发帖数: 24887 | 10 CTM!
就是说,不论多牛逼的岗位,只要事实上没有,say,30%最终选入者是黑人,就自动算种族
歧视? |
|
|
D**S
发帖数: 24887 | 11 是,咱们华人充当collateral damage.
【在 w********e 的大作中提到】
: Good one.
:
: public
|
w********e
发帖数: 8594 | 12 原来这才是此帖子的缘由啊。那中国人也得去告告。
【在 D**S 的大作中提到】
: 是,咱们华人充当collateral damage.
|
T**********e
发帖数: 29576 | 13
过程是公平的，但只要结果不平均，就有case可以指控institutionalized
discrimination。
因为可以说黑人普遍因为学管弦乐器机会少和条件差，因而貌似公平的选拔，对黑人还
是不公平了。
这个DSO乐团的事情当然上不了法庭，但是乐团受政府补贴，反对者就从补贴下手，乐
团马上雇了黑人乐手还建立了专门给黑人的音乐奖学金，到现在成为一个典范。
【在 c********g 的大作中提到】
: 公平的东西就是歧视了，太搞笑了。
:
: study
: competition
|
T**********e
发帖数: 29576 | 14 以前Detroit Symphony Orchestra面试乐手都是隔着一道帘子，力求评委的决定不受肤
色，种族和长相等等因素影响。
1989年被告结构性歧视黑人 (institutionalized discrimination)，因为隔着帘子太
多黑人考不上了。后来DSO就专门招了个黑人。
Nationally, African-Americans make up only about 1.4 percent of major
orchestras.Experts cite many reasons, including a legacy of racism in the
arts, school music cuts, fewer opportunities for minority children to study
a musical instrument and a lack of role models.
Another reason may be blind auditions, held behind a screen. The competition
is stiff; often an orchestra will receive 200 applicants for one vacancy.
Diversity in orchestras is a national dilemma. In 1989, the Detroit Symphony
Orchestra was threatened with losing a $1.3 state subsidy unless it hired a
second black musician. In a highly controversial move, it side-stepped the
blind audition and hired an African-American.
Shortly after, the Detroit Symphony founded an African-American Fellowship
Program to increase its talent pool of minority players. Young black
musicians join the orchestra in rehearsals and performances. They receive
coaching and audition preparation tips from orchestra members. |
c******k
发帖数: 8998 | |
N*****m
发帖数: 42603 | 16 融入了hip-hop和蓝调
【在 c******k 的大作中提到】
: 拉小提琴也能听出黑人味道？
|
T**********e
发帖数: 29576 | 17
不是啦，institutionalized discrimination不需要在程序上有歧视的证据，只要最后
很多黑人来报考都考不上就可以成立。
纠正institutionalized discrimination的标准手法是，改变考试标准，引入AA，给黑
人降低标准，直到黑人多到没人再complain为止。
【在 c******k 的大作中提到】
: 拉小提琴也能听出黑人味道？
|
w********e
发帖数: 8594 | 18 这institutionalized discrimination听起来像是个非常扯淡的东西。照这样说，啥筛
选过程都应当做成一个抽签系统。
不过呢，美国也应当为祖上还点债。 |
c*****g
发帖数: 21627 | 19 美国欠债最多的是印弟安人，其次是华人，还轮不到黑人
【在 w********e 的大作中提到】
: 这institutionalized discrimination听起来像是个非常扯淡的东西。照这样说，啥筛
: 选过程都应当做成一个抽签系统。
: 不过呢，美国也应当为祖上还点债。
|
c********g
发帖数: 15629 | 20 公平的东西就是歧视了，太搞笑了。
study
competition
【在 T**********e 的大作中提到】
: 以前Detroit Symphony Orchestra面试乐手都是隔着一道帘子，力求评委的决定不受肤
: 色，种族和长相等等因素影响。
: 1989年被告结构性歧视黑人 (institutionalized discrimination)，因为隔着帘子太
: 多黑人考不上了。后来DSO就专门招了个黑人。
: Nationally, African-Americans make up only about 1.4 percent of major
: orchestras.Experts cite many reasons, including a legacy of racism in the
: arts, school music cuts, fewer opportunities for minority children to study
: a musical instrument and a lack of role models.
: Another reason may be blind auditions, held behind a screen. The competition
: is stiff; often an orchestra will receive 200 applicants for one vacancy.
|
|
|
w********r
发帖数: 1189 | 21 In US you can sue anybody and any organization (including the federal
government) for any reason. The question is if you have a case and if you
can convince the judge or jury.
Many a time there is a cost, such as money and/or time and/or emotion...
If you file too many no-merit lawsuits, you may damage your credit as a
citizen. You have to balance your pros and cons, lost and gains etc.
Public organizations are usually an easy target for lawsuit because such
organizations are reluctant to fight a citizen on court, many a time they
offer the plaintiff an offer, even they do nothing wrong, mainly for public
relationship reasons.
For example, a public university rarely pursue a taxpayer or private company
with a lawsuit even they owe university a signficant amount of money. If a
taxpayer or private company sue the university, the university usually
resolves the issue out of the court room.
BTW, I do not think the guy could win this case, unless the african
americans are the largest donators to the orchestra.
study
competition
【在 T**********e 的大作中提到】
: 以前Detroit Symphony Orchestra面试乐手都是隔着一道帘子，力求评委的决定不受肤
: 色，种族和长相等等因素影响。
: 1989年被告结构性歧视黑人 (institutionalized discrimination)，因为隔着帘子太
: 多黑人考不上了。后来DSO就专门招了个黑人。
: Nationally, African-Americans make up only about 1.4 percent of major
: orchestras.Experts cite many reasons, including a legacy of racism in the
: arts, school music cuts, fewer opportunities for minority children to study
: a musical instrument and a lack of role models.
: Another reason may be blind auditions, held behind a screen. The competition
: is stiff; often an orchestra will receive 200 applicants for one vacancy.
|
w********e
发帖数: 8594 | 22 Good one.
public
【在 w********r 的大作中提到】
: In US you can sue anybody and any organization (including the federal
: government) for any reason. The question is if you have a case and if you
: can convince the judge or jury.
: Many a time there is a cost, such as money and/or time and/or emotion...
: If you file too many no-merit lawsuits, you may damage your credit as a
: citizen. You have to balance your pros and cons, lost and gains etc.
: Public organizations are usually an easy target for lawsuit because such
: organizations are reluctant to fight a citizen on court, many a time they
: offer the plaintiff an offer, even they do nothing wrong, mainly for public
: relationship reasons.
|
D**S
发帖数: 24887 | 23 CTM!
就是说,不论多牛逼的岗位,只要事实上没有,say,30%最终选入者是黑人,就自动算种族
歧视? |
D**S
发帖数: 24887 | 24 是,咱们华人充当collateral damage.
【在 w********e 的大作中提到】
: Good one.
:
: public
|
w********e
发帖数: 8594 | 25 原来这才是此帖子的缘由啊。那中国人也得去告告。
【在 D**S 的大作中提到】
: 是,咱们华人充当collateral damage.
|
T**********e
发帖数: 29576 | 26
过程是公平的，但只要结果不平均，就有case可以指控institutionalized
discrimination。
因为可以说黑人普遍因为学管弦乐器机会少和条件差，因而貌似公平的选拔，对黑人还
是不公平了。
这个DSO乐团的事情当然上不了法庭，但是乐团受政府补贴，反对者就从补贴下手，乐
团马上雇了黑人乐手还建立了专门给黑人的音乐奖学金，到现在成为一个典范。
【在 c********g 的大作中提到】
: 公平的东西就是歧视了，太搞笑了。
:
: study
: competition
|
L**S
发帖数: 7833 | |
M****1
发帖数: 702 | 28 记得这个隔帘子考试最初也是黑人提出来的
还是欧洲牛，维也纳爱乐直接就说我们不招欧洲裔以外的。之前一个日奥混血用了好几
年才被approve加入 |
w********r
发帖数: 1189 | 29 In Iowa, blacks account for 2% of the state population but 24% of the inmate
in jail.
Many black or civial right leaders sometimes make it an issue but only
arguing that more money should be spent on crime prevention than rounding up
the criminals in order to reduce the ratio gap. They dare not to challenge
the fact that all criminals are found guilty in the court of the law.
【在 D**S 的大作中提到】
: CTM!
: 就是说,不论多牛逼的岗位,只要事实上没有,say,30%最终选入者是黑人,就自动算种族
: 歧视?
|
k**o
发帖数: 15334 | 30 这个故事是这个意思，就是一开始交响乐团的黑人比例很低，才1.4%，然后
黑人觉得可能是考试的时候被歧视了，然后要求考试的时候，都隔着帘子考，
看不到肤色。这个规定实行之后，黑人发现黑人考中的几率更低了。然后
现在又要求不隔着帘子考，而是强制规定黑人要达到一定的比例，乐团才能
获得state funding。
study
competition
【在 T**********e 的大作中提到】
: 以前Detroit Symphony Orchestra面试乐手都是隔着一道帘子，力求评委的决定不受肤
: 色，种族和长相等等因素影响。
: 1989年被告结构性歧视黑人 (institutionalized discrimination)，因为隔着帘子太
: 多黑人考不上了。后来DSO就专门招了个黑人。
: Nationally, African-Americans make up only about 1.4 percent of major
: orchestras.Experts cite many reasons, including a legacy of racism in the
: arts, school music cuts, fewer opportunities for minority children to study
: a musical instrument and a lack of role models.
: Another reason may be blind auditions, held behind a screen. The competition
: is stiff; often an orchestra will receive 200 applicants for one vacancy.
|
|
|
w********r
发帖数: 1189 | 31 detroit is fa ke up -ed city anyway.
【在 k**o 的大作中提到】
: 这个故事是这个意思，就是一开始交响乐团的黑人比例很低，才1.4%，然后
: 黑人觉得可能是考试的时候被歧视了，然后要求考试的时候，都隔着帘子考，
: 看不到肤色。这个规定实行之后，黑人发现黑人考中的几率更低了。然后
: 现在又要求不隔着帘子考，而是强制规定黑人要达到一定的比例，乐团才能
: 获得state funding。
:
: study
: competition
|
h****a
发帖数: 3114 | |
j*******n
发帖数: 3254 | 33 美国国家交响乐团应该全部起用黑人！
God bless America!
【在 T**********e 的大作中提到】
:
: 过程是公平的，但只要结果不平均，就有case可以指控institutionalized
: discrimination。
: 因为可以说黑人普遍因为学管弦乐器机会少和条件差，因而貌似公平的选拔，对黑人还
: 是不公平了。
: 这个DSO乐团的事情当然上不了法庭，但是乐团受政府补贴，反对者就从补贴下手，乐
: 团马上雇了黑人乐手还建立了专门给黑人的音乐奖学金，到现在成为一个典范。
|
T**********e
发帖数: 29576 | 34
Blind audition 70年代引入，主要是减少对妇女和其他少民的歧视。
专门有个paper 研究它的效果："about 10 percent of orchestra members were
female around 1970, compared to about 35 percent in the mid-1990s. Rouse and
Goldin attribute about 30 percent of this gain to the advent of blind
auditions.“
blind audition应该是最公平的试听了，老黑这都能作出文章真是奇芭。
【在 M****1 的大作中提到】
: 记得这个隔帘子考试最初也是黑人提出来的
: 还是欧洲牛，维也纳爱乐直接就说我们不招欧洲裔以外的。之前一个日奥混血用了好几
: 年才被approve加入
|
w********r
发帖数: 1189 | 35 not a bad idea.
【在 j*******n 的大作中提到】
: 美国国家交响乐团应该全部起用黑人！
: God bless America!
|
y***n
发帖数: 6764 | 36 搞笑的是，那些受照顾太有机会的黑人，之后还一脸的里所应当，this country is
fucked up anyway!
study
competition
【在 T**********e 的大作中提到】
: 以前Detroit Symphony Orchestra面试乐手都是隔着一道帘子，力求评委的决定不受肤
: 色，种族和长相等等因素影响。
: 1989年被告结构性歧视黑人 (institutionalized discrimination)，因为隔着帘子太
: 多黑人考不上了。后来DSO就专门招了个黑人。
: Nationally, African-Americans make up only about 1.4 percent of major
: orchestras.Experts cite many reasons, including a legacy of racism in the
: arts, school music cuts, fewer opportunities for minority children to study
: a musical instrument and a lack of role models.
: Another reason may be blind auditions, held behind a screen. The competition
: is stiff; often an orchestra will receive 200 applicants for one vacancy.
|
T**********e
发帖数: 29576 | 37
主要是黑奴的历史，黑人觉得米国欠他们的。
【在 y***n 的大作中提到】
: 搞笑的是，那些受照顾太有机会的黑人，之后还一脸的里所应当，this country is
: fucked up anyway!
:
: study
: competition
|
A****r
发帖数: 2746 | |
