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j**p
发帖数: 1257 | 1 在MSNBC看到Eric X. Li和裴敏新辩论中国民主的结尾。
Eric X. Li 用流利的中式口音英语吐槽东亚文明不适合民主，证据就是台湾韩国前总
统纷纷入狱...
完整的video在这里。
http://blog.hiddenharmonies.org/2012/07/aspen-ideas-festival-de
找到几篇大作，都是发在nytimes等等主流英文媒体上的。
司马南看到大概只能感叹英文老师死得早了。
李世默：西方民主正在走向灭亡
DEMOCRACY’S COMING DEMISE
SHANGHAI -- As the U.S. presidential election shifts into high gear this
week Washington hosts China's Vice President Xi Jinping heir apparent of the
emergent super power. The world's most powerful electoral democracy and the
largest one-party state meet at a time of political transition for both.
Many have characterized the competition of ideas between the two giants as
one between democracy and authoritarianism. This false perspective needs to
be dispelled.
In the long history of human governance spanning over thousands of years
there have been only two meaningful experiments in democracy as the term is
understood in the modern West. The first was Athens which lasted a century
and a half from sixth to the middle of fourth century B.C - a quick failure
really. The second is the modern West. If one defines democracy as one-
person-one-vote American democracy is only 92 years old. In practice it is
only 47 years old if one begins counting at the Voting Rights Act of 1965 --
far more ephemeral than even China's shortest-lived dynasties.
Why then do so many boldly claim they have discovered the ideal political
system for all mankind and that its success is forever assured?
The answer lies in the spiritual source of the current democratic experiment
. It began with the European Enlightenment which gave birth to modernity.
Two fundamental ideas informed its core: the individual is rational and the
individual is endowed with unalienable rights. These two beliefs are in
essence based on faith not empirical evidence. As Thomas Jefferson wrote "
All men are created equal...and are endowed by their Creator with certain
unalienable Rights." And who was that Creator with a capital "C"? God of
course. To further emphasize the divine nature of the claim the "R" in
rights was capitalized as well. Along with claims such as "liberté egalité
fraternité" they form the basis of a religious faith called modernity of
which the ultimate political manifestation is democracy.
In its early days democratic ideas in political governance facilitated the
industrial revolution and ushered in a period of unprecedented economic
prosperity and military power in the Western world. Yet at the very
beginning those who led this drive were aware of the fatal flaw inbred in
this experiment and sought to contain it. The American Federalists made it
clear they were establishing a republic not a democracy and designed a
myriad of bells and whistles to constrain the popular will. But as in any
religion faith would prove stronger than rules. The political franchise
could only expand resulting in ever more people participating in ever more
decisions. As they say in America California is the future. And what is that
future? Endless referendums paralysis and insolvency.
With the advent of television and then the Internet whatever excuses the
founders of the American republic came up with to contain democracy such as
an ignorant public and a lack of information fall by the wayside. After all
if the people are rational and divinely endowed with rights and all
knowledge is at their fingertips why shouldn't they be allowed to decide on
everything? In Athens ever-increasing popular participation in politics led
to rule by demagoguery. Public fervor whipped up by Alcibiades' oratory sent
its powerful fleet on that fateful mission to Syracuse and its defeat there
by Sparta started Athens' decline. Fast-forward to the present money is now
the great enabler of demagoguery. As the Nobel economist Michael Spence put
it America has gone from "one-propertied-man-one-vote to one-man-one-vote
to one-person-one-vote trending to one-dollar-one-vote."
By any measure America today is a constitutional republic in name only and
an Athenian democracy in practice. Elected representatives have no minds of
their own and respond only to the whims of public opinion as they seek re-
elections; with the abundance of information and the most efficient
communication ever known to man the public believes it knows everything;
special interests manipulate the people into voting for ever lower taxes and
higher government spending even supporting self destructive wars. Elections
become the game through which disparate groups seek rents from the system.
Such is the vicious cycle that is in the DNA of the current experiment in
democracy based on the faith of rationalism and rights. A similar version of
the same movie is showing in theaters everywhere in Europe. In contrast the
Roman republic survived much longer because it never pretended or aspired
to be a democracy.
The West's competition of ideas with China is not between democracy and
authoritarianism but between two fundamentally different outlooks on
political systems. The former sees democracy as an end in itself; the latter
sees any political system as barely means. It is indeed a commonly held
faith in America that democracy is a good in itself and the more democratic
the better. Is there a politician in America who would dare say otherwise?
Western democracy is inherently incapable of becoming less democratic even
when its survival may depend on such a shift.
The Chinese on the other hand would allow greater popular participation in
political decisions when it is conducive to economic development and
favorable to its national interests as they have done in the past 10 years
but would not hesitate to curtail it if the conditions and the needs of the
nation change. The 1980s saw a decade of expanding popular participation in
the country’s politics that helped the nation loosen the ideological
shackles of the destructive Cultural Revolution. But it went too far and led
to a vast rebellion at Tiananmen Square.
That uprising was decisively put down on June 4 1989. The Chinese nation
paid a heavy price for that bloody event but the alternatives would have
been far worse. The resulting stability ushered in a generation of growth
and prosperity that propelled China to its position as the second largest
economy in the world. As the national polity matures political adjustments
are becoming more sophisticated and pro-active further narrowing the swings
to avoid violent extremes.
The fundamental difference between Washington's view and Beijing's is
whether political rights are considered as God-given and therefore absolute
or should be seen as privileges to be negotiated based on the needs and
conditions of the nation.
In this framework the Americans today are not dissimilar to the Soviets of
the last century in that both see their political systems and their
underlying ideologies as ultimate ends. The Chinese are on a different path.
History does not bode well for the American path. Their faith-based
ideological hubris will soon drive democracy over the cliff.
Eric X. Li is a venture capitalist in Shanghai.
李世默：西方民主正在走向灭亡
2012-02-19 08:32
核心提示：美国是世界上最强的代议制民主国家，而中国是最大的一党制国家。许多人
将中美两大国间的理念之争，曲解成民主与专制间的对抗，这一错误观念亟需消除。
（本文同时刊载于美国《纽约时报》、《赫芬顿邮报》和香港《南华早报》，作者授权
观察者网独家翻译。）
本周，在美国总统选战步入高潮之际，中国国家副主席习近平访问了华盛顿。中国是世
界上新兴的超级大国，而习近平被视为这个大国未来的领导者。此次访问，意味着两国
领导人在政府换届之际相遇。美国是世界上最强的代议制民主国家，而中国是最大的一
党制国家。许多人将中美两大国间的理念之争，曲解成民主与专制间的对抗，这一错误
观念亟需消除。
人类社会的政治史长达数千年，在这一历史长河中点缀了两次西方式民主制度的试验。
第一次试验是古希腊的城邦雅典，其民主制度从公元前6世纪维持到公元前4世纪中叶，
持续了一个半世纪，实际上只能算是一次昙花一现的失败。第二次试验是现代西方世界
，如果把民主定义为一人一票的普选制，那么美国民主的历史是92年，如果更严格地按
诸事实，从1965年《选举权法案》颁布算起只有47年。这么说来，美国民主的寿命迄今
为止还比不过元朝，后者是中国古代主要王朝中最短命的一个。
既然如此，为何会有那么多人敢公然宣称，他们已一劳永逸找到适合全人类的理想政治
制度呢？
要回答这一问题，就要追本溯源，回到当前西方民主试验的精神源头。当今西方民主的
滥觞，是孕育了现代性的欧洲近代启蒙运动。启蒙运动的核心思想，可以归结为两条基
本理念：首先个人是理性的；其次个人权利是神圣不可侵犯的。这两条理念在本质上都
是基于信仰，而非现实的经验。比如在美国《独立宣言》中，托马斯•杰弗逊就
写道：“人人生而平等……造物主（Creator）赋予他们若干不可剥夺的权利（Rights
）。” 这个大写的“造物主”是谁？当然就是基督教信仰中的上帝。与此相对应，“
权利”一词也用了大写，以强调这条格言的神圣性。美国《独立宣言》中的这一表述，
与法国《人权宣言》中“自由、平等、博爱”的信条，一起组成了所谓的“现代性”信
仰的基础，而“现代性”在政治上的终极表现形式，就是西方式民主制度。
在最初的一段时间里，政治体制中的民主因素促发了工业革命，西方世界的经济和军事
实力前所未有地突飞猛进。不过，领导西方崛起的领袖们从一开始，就清醒地看到民主
试验中天然蕴涵的致命缺陷，他们想方设法试图遏制其消极影响。比如美国的联邦党人
就明确提出，他们希望建立的是共和国家，而不是民主国家。为此，联邦党人在宪法中
竭力遏制大众意志的过度膨胀。可是，就像任何一个宗教一样，信仰的力量最后总是压
倒规则。民主的结果是公民的政治权利无限膨胀，参与决策者越来越多，参与面越来越
泛。在美国人们常说，加利福尼亚就是美国的未来。这个未来又是怎样的景象呢？只有
无休止的公民投票、政府瘫痪和财政破产。
对美国而言，这个共和国的开创者们有许多理由来限制民主，例如大众素质太低，缺乏
见识，易走极端。但随着电视和互联网的兴起，这些壁垒都轰然倒地。归根结蒂，既然
人们都是理性的，拥有上帝赋予的不可侵犯的权利，并且一切知识都触手可得，那么他
们为何不能参与一切决策？在伯罗奔尼撒战争中，雅典城邦由于民众无限参与政治，导
致了煽动家的上台。煽动家西亚比德用慷慨激昂的演说鼓动起民众的狂热，让雅典派出
其强大的舰队去远征叙拉古，结果被斯巴达所打败，这次致命的出征成为雅典衰亡的开
端。再回到当下，现在金钱成了煽动政治的最大推手。诺贝尔经济学奖得主迈克尔&#
8226;斯宾塞一语道破天机，他说美国的民主先后经历了几个历史阶段：最早是“一个
有产男人一票”，接着是“一个男人一票”，然后是“一人一票”，现在正向“一美元
一票”迈进。
无论从何种意义上说，当今美国都只是徒有虚名的宪政共和国，实际上已经堕落为雅典
式的民主政体。被选举上台的民众代表们根本没有自己的主见，其唯一关心的就是迎合
一时的民意，好在下次选举时保住位子。当今信息的丰富和传播的迅速，都堪称史无前
例，这诱使民众陷入自己什么都懂的幻觉。利益集团则从中播弄民意并操纵投票，结果
是不断减税，提高政府支出，甚至发动自我毁灭性的战争。选举因此沦为游戏，不同的
利益集团都在利用这个制度寻租。民主制度之所以陷入这种恶性循环，是因为这一试验
的深层基因所致，即对个人理性和权利的迷信。不仅是美国如此，欧洲各国也在上演同
样的戏码。相较于当今风雨飘摇的西方民主制度，古代的罗马共和国的历史要长得多，
这是因为后者从未自饰为民主，也从无这样的野心。
因此，西方与中国的理念之争，不是出于民主与专制的对抗，而是由于对政治制度完全
不同的理解。在前者看来，民主本身就是最终目的；而在后者眼中，任何政治制度都不
过是工具。美国人普遍相信，民主就是好，而且越民主越好。在美国，有哪位政治家敢
对民主提出质疑呢？西方民主已走进死胡同，或许只有控制民主的泛滥方能拯救民主本
身。但在民主制度下，这一调整永远只能是天方夜谭。
相较之下，越来越多的中国民众正在政府引导下参与政治决策，因为这可以促进经济发
展和国家利益，而近十年来的成绩也恰恰证明了此点。但如果国情和国家需求发生变化
，中国将毫不迟疑地主动调整。在上世纪80年代，民众政治参与度的不断提高，有助于
当时的中国走出灾难性的“文化大革命”的阴影，摆脱意识形态的桎梏。但凡事过犹不
及，爆炸性的政治参与最终引起了一场大规模的动乱，这就是天安门事件。
June 41989 抗议活动被政府的坚决行动平定了。诚然，这次流血事件令中国人民付出
了惨痛的代价，但除此之外的其他选择只会更糟糕，结果只能两害相权取其轻。此后一
代人的时间里，中国保持了政治稳定，迎来了经济增长和繁荣，并跻身世界第二大经济
体。与此同时，中国在政治上日渐成熟，可以更加积极稳妥地推动政治改革，减少震荡
，避免极端暴力倾向。
在政治意识形态上，美国和中国之间存在根本分歧。前者认为政治权利是上帝赋予的，
因此也是绝对的；而在后者看来，政治权利的发展必须建立在国家需求和基本国情之上。
照此来看，今天的美国人与上世纪的苏联人并无本质区别，他们都将自己的政治制度和
意识形态当作终极目的。中国的崛起之路，恰恰与之相反。就未来的前景看，美国人的
道路并不美妙。不过迄今为止，他们还沉迷于狂妄自大的意识形态，一路狂奔，而前方
就是悬崖峭壁。
李世默是上海的一位风险投资家。
Why China’s Political Model Is Superior
By ERIC X. LI
Published: February 16 2012
Shanghai
THIS week the Obama administration is playing host to Xi Jinping China’s
vice president and heir apparent. The world’s most powerful electoral
democracy and its largest one-party state are meeting at a time of political
transition for both.
Many have characterized the competition between these two giants as a clash
between democracy and authoritarianism. But this is false. America and China
view their political systems in fundamentally different ways: whereas
America sees democratic government as an end in itself China sees its
current form of government or any political system for that matter merely as
a means to achieving larger national ends.
In the history of human governance spanning thousands of years there have
been two major experiments in democracy. The first was Athens which lasted a
century and a half; the second is the modern West. If one defines democracy
as one citizen one vote American democracy is only 92 years old. In
practice it is only 47 years old if one begins counting after the Voting
Rights Act of 1965 — far more ephemeral than all but a handful of China’s
dynasties.
Why then do so many boldly claim they have discovered the ideal political
system for all mankind and that its success is forever assured?
The answer lies in the source of the current democratic experiment. It began
with the European Enlightenment. Two fundamental ideas were at its core:
the individual is rational and the individual is endowed with inalienable
rights. These two beliefs formed the basis of a secular faith in modernity
of which the ultimate political manifestation is democracy.
In its early days democratic ideas in political governance facilitated the
industrial revolution and ushered in a period of unprecedented economic
prosperity and military power in the Western world. Yet at the very
beginning some of those who led this drive were aware of the fatal flaw
embedded in this experiment and sought to contain it.
The American Federalists made it clear they were establishing a republic not
a democracy and designed myriad means to constrain the popular will. But as
in any religion faith would prove stronger than rules.
The political franchise expanded resulting in a greater number of people
participating in more and more decisions. As they say in America “
California is the future.” And the future means endless referendums
paralysis and insolvency.
In Athens ever-increasing popular participation in politics led to rule by
demagogy. And in today’s America money is now the great enabler of demagogy
. As the Nobel-winning economist A. Michael Spence has put it America has
gone from “one propertied man one vote; to one man one vote; to one person
one vote; trending to one dollar one vote.” By any measure the United
States is a constitutional republic in name only. Elected representatives
have no minds of their own and respond only to the whims of public opinion
as they seek re-election; special interests manipulate the people into
voting for ever-lower taxes and higher government spending sometimes even
supporting self-destructive wars.
The West’s current competition with China is therefore not a face-off
between democracy and authoritarianism but rather the clash of two
fundamentally different political outlooks. The modern West sees democracy
and human rights as the pinnacle of human development. It is a belief
premised on an absolute faith.
China is on a different path. Its leaders are prepared to allow greater
popular participation in political decisions if and when it is conducive to
economic development and favorable to the country’s national interests as
they have done in the past 10 years.
However China’s leaders would not hesitate to curtail those freedoms if the
conditions and the needs of the nation changed. The 1980s were a time of
expanding popular participation in the country’s politics that helped
loosen the ideological shackles of the destructive Cultural Revolution. But
it went too far and led to a vast rebellion at Tiananmen Square.
That uprising was decisively put down on June 4 1989. The Chinese nation
paid a heavy price for that violent event but the alternatives would have
been far worse.
The resulting stability ushered in a generation of growth and prosperity
that propelled China’s economy to its position as the second largest in the
world.
The fundamental difference between Washington’s view and Beijing’s is
whether political rights are considered God-given and therefore absolute or
whether they should be seen as privileges to be negotiated based on the
needs and conditions of the nation.
The West seems incapable of becoming less democratic even when its survival
may depend on such a shift. In this sense America today is similar to the
old Soviet Union which also viewed its political system as the ultimate end.
History does not bode well for the American way. Indeed faith-based
ideological hubris may soon drive democracy over the cliff.
Eric X. Li is a venture capitalist
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/16/opinion/why-chinas-political-
为什么中国的政治模式更优
2012-02-19 08:09
《环球时报》
美国《纽约时报》网站2月16日文章，原题：为什么中国的政治模式更优 许多人说，美
中两个大国的竞争是民主与专制之间的冲突。这是错误的。美中对各自政治制度的看法
截然不同。美国认为民主政府本身就是目的，而中国只把现行政体或任何政治制度，视
为实现更大国家目标的一种手段。
人类几千年政治管理的历史主要出现两次民主试验。第一次是在雅典，但只持续一个半
世纪。第二次是现代西方。如果民主指的是一人一票，那么美国的民主仅有92年历史。
如果从1965年《选举权法案》算起，那只有47年———远比中国的多数王朝短暂。
既然这样，为什么那么多人大胆宣称，他们已发现适用于全人类的理想政治制度，它的
成功万无一失？答案在于当前民主试验的来源。它始于欧洲启蒙运动，核心是两个基本
思想：人是理性的，人拥有天赋权利。这两个信念构成现代世俗信仰的基础，终极政治
表现形式就是民主。
在雅典，民众越来越多地参与政治，最终导致煽动统治。而在当今美国，金钱是煽动的
大推手。正如诺贝尔经济学奖得主迈克尔•斯彭斯所说，美国已从“有钱人一人
一票，变为一男子一票，再到一人一票，现在趋向一美元一票”。
因此西方当前与中国的竞争不是民主与专制的对峙，而是两种截然不同的政治观点的碰
撞。现代西方视民主和人权为人类发展的巅峰。而中国取道不同。中国领导人准备允许
民众更多地参与政治，前提是这有助于经济发展和有利于国家利益。
华盛顿和北京政治观点的根本差异在于，政治权利是被视为天赋的，从而是绝对的，还
是应被视为特别待遇，可按照国家的需要和状况作出改变。西方似乎无力淡化民主，即
便其生存取决于这种转变。从这个意义上讲，当今美国类似苏联，因为苏联也认为自己
的政治制度是终极目的。▲（作者李世默，汪析译） | q*********8
发帖数: 5776 | 2 司马南年轻时专心练扯蛋去了，哪还有空学英语？扯蛋，脑袋被夹到司马南这都成了实
意，哈哈！
★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 7.7
【在 j**p 的大作中提到】
: 在MSNBC看到Eric X. Li和裴敏新辩论中国民主的结尾。
: Eric X. Li 用流利的中式口音英语吐槽东亚文明不适合民主，证据就是台湾韩国前总
: 统纷纷入狱...
: 完整的video在这里。
: http://blog.hiddenharmonies.org/2012/07/aspen-ideas-festival-de
: 找到几篇大作，都是发在nytimes等等主流英文媒体上的。
: 司马南看到大概只能感叹英文老师死得早了。
: 李世默：西方民主正在走向灭亡
: DEMOCRACY’S COMING DEMISE
: SHANGHAI -- As the U.S. presidential election shifts into high gear this
| M*P
发帖数: 6456 | 3 说他是五毛不公平，至少是自带干粮的五毛
但是他很有果轮之风。另外对手也实在太挫。
【在 j**p 的大作中提到】
: 在MSNBC看到Eric X. Li和裴敏新辩论中国民主的结尾。
: Eric X. Li 用流利的中式口音英语吐槽东亚文明不适合民主，证据就是台湾韩国前总
: 统纷纷入狱...
: 完整的video在这里。
: http://blog.hiddenharmonies.org/2012/07/aspen-ideas-festival-de
: 找到几篇大作，都是发在nytimes等等主流英文媒体上的。
: 司马南看到大概只能感叹英文老师死得早了。
: 李世默：西方民主正在走向灭亡
: DEMOCRACY’S COMING DEMISE
: SHANGHAI -- As the U.S. presidential election shifts into high gear this
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【在 j**p 的大作中提到】
: 在MSNBC看到Eric X. Li和裴敏新辩论中国民主的结尾。
: Eric X. Li 用流利的中式口音英语吐槽东亚文明不适合民主，证据就是台湾韩国前总
: 统纷纷入狱...
: 完整的video在这里。
: http://blog.hiddenharmonies.org/2012/07/aspen-ideas-festival-de
: 找到几篇大作，都是发在nytimes等等主流英文媒体上的。
: 司马南看到大概只能感叹英文老师死得早了。
: 李世默：西方民主正在走向灭亡
: DEMOCRACY’S COMING DEMISE
: SHANGHAI -- As the U.S. presidential election shifts into high gear this
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