m**a
发帖数: 139 | 1 根据stanford网上的数据，ivy league law school的毕业生earn 70000～85000 每年
。全部的话只有40000～60000。eighth－year associates 是85000～113500。这和其
他专业的Phd毕业生工资差不多啊，有些还不如，怎么理解呢？ |
f*********e
发帖数: 27 | 2 Not everybody goes to BIGLaws.
Some serve in the public sector thus the salary is relatively low.
【在 m**a 的大作中提到】
: 根据stanford网上的数据，ivy league law school的毕业生earn 70000～85000 每年
: 。全部的话只有40000～60000。eighth－year associates 是85000～113500。这和其
: 他专业的Phd毕业生工资差不多啊，有些还不如，怎么理解呢？
|
m**********n
发帖数: 71 | 3 很容易理解，越是TOP的学校里，越是更多的学生要做PUBLIC SERVICES。你看看YALE的
毕业数据去，那些老美都要去做CLERK,GOVERNMENT，他们将来的志向都是做参议员，法
官，政府官员甚至总统。他们可不要啥BIGLAW。
【在 m**a 的大作中提到】
: 根据stanford网上的数据，ivy league law school的毕业生earn 70000～85000 每年
: 。全部的话只有40000～60000。eighth－year associates 是85000～113500。这和其
: 他专业的Phd毕业生工资差不多啊，有些还不如，怎么理解呢？
|
n**m
发帖数: 255 | 4 they don't need money to pay the loan
【在 m**********n 的大作中提到】
: 很容易理解，越是TOP的学校里，越是更多的学生要做PUBLIC SERVICES。你看看YALE的
: 毕业数据去，那些老美都要去做CLERK,GOVERNMENT，他们将来的志向都是做参议员，法
: 官，政府官员甚至总统。他们可不要啥BIGLAW。
|
b******s
发帖数: 33 | 5 the current 1st year associate salary at top nyc firms is 160k plus bonus.
but if you go to a small firm doing real estate or collection or PI work (
even located in manhattan), it could be as little as 50k. |
c**d
发帖数: 3888 | 6 Many, many law students would take a $50K clerkship or a DOJ job over a $
160K firm job. |
r**********n
发帖数: 47 | 7 the numbers are correct. I know quite a few people who will do public
interest or work for the government, both of which don't pay well. But the
jobs they have can be very exciting. On the other hand, the best students
usually opt for clerkship and eventually become law professors or get paid
big bucks at a private firm.
Compared to MBA students and Medical students, lawyers don't get paid as
well. MBAs easily start above $150K as a consultant, Doctors with specialty
make above $300K normally. I
【在 m**a 的大作中提到】
: 根据stanford网上的数据，ivy league law school的毕业生earn 70000～85000 每年
: 。全部的话只有40000～60000。eighth－year associates 是85000～113500。这和其
: 他专业的Phd毕业生工资差不多啊，有些还不如，怎么理解呢？
|
r**********n
发帖数: 47 | 8 One more thing for those who want to go to law school, it's a three year, 90
-credit program. Every class is tough. I have had quite a few degrees since
college. J.D. is definitely the most difficult one to get. On the other hand
, you only need 60 credits for a MBA, and at least about half of those are
easy to get. Do I regret the decison to going to law school? Absolutely not.
Would I have made a different decision knowing what i was getting into?
probably. MBA gives you the best p/e ratio.
【在 m**a 的大作中提到】
: 根据stanford网上的数据，ivy league law school的毕业生earn 70000～85000 每年
: 。全部的话只有40000～60000。eighth－year associates 是85000～113500。这和其
: 他专业的Phd毕业生工资差不多啊，有些还不如，怎么理解呢？
|
a**d
发帖数: 31 | 9 "MBAs easily start above $150K as a consultant" - JDs easily start at $
160k plus bonus working at NYC BigLaw.
"Doctors with specialty make above $300K normally. " - it takes these
doctors about 10 years after college (4 yr of medical school + 3 yr of
residency + 3 yr of fellowship) to starting earning that amount. You should
not compare attending level doctors against first year associates. A fair
comparison is attending physicians against 7th yr senior associate or junior
partner. At that
【在 r**********n 的大作中提到】
: the numbers are correct. I know quite a few people who will do public
: interest or work for the government, both of which don't pay well. But the
: jobs they have can be very exciting. On the other hand, the best students
: usually opt for clerkship and eventually become law professors or get paid
: big bucks at a private firm.
: Compared to MBA students and Medical students, lawyers don't get paid as
: well. MBAs easily start above $150K as a consultant, Doctors with specialty
: make above $300K normally. I
|
l**********r
发帖数: 240 | 10 I don’t see any problem with his conclusion. And it’s not just HIS
conclusion. It’s the reality that can be shown by real data---whether you
are doing the comparison of the three professions using the top-tier salary
or the average salary.
You already agreed with half of his conclusion: "The business route is
generally the better path if the goal is to get filthy rich." For the other
half, you argued his comparison was not fair. But how fair is it for you
to compare a senior attorney working
【在 a**d 的大作中提到】
: "MBAs easily start above $150K as a consultant" - JDs easily start at $
: 160k plus bonus working at NYC BigLaw.
: "Doctors with specialty make above $300K normally. " - it takes these
: doctors about 10 years after college (4 yr of medical school + 3 yr of
: residency + 3 yr of fellowship) to starting earning that amount. You should
: not compare attending level doctors against first year associates. A fair
: comparison is attending physicians against 7th yr senior associate or junior
: partner. At that
|
|
|
a**d
发帖数: 31 | 11 You don't really know much about the medical profession, do you? Keep in
mind the topic is to compare the income of a person who chooses to go to
medical school vs. a person who chooses to go to law school, let us make a
comparison:
Year 1: A went to law school; B went to medical school
Year 4: A starts in BigLaw as a first year associate. Salary: $160k + bonus
. B is still a student in Medical school paying $50k to cover tuition +
living expense.
Year 5: A is a 2nd-yr associate, Salary $170k
【在 l**********r 的大作中提到】
: I don’t see any problem with his conclusion. And it’s not just HIS
: conclusion. It’s the reality that can be shown by real data---whether you
: are doing the comparison of the three professions using the top-tier salary
: or the average salary.
: You already agreed with half of his conclusion: "The business route is
: generally the better path if the goal is to get filthy rich." For the other
: half, you argued his comparison was not fair. But how fair is it for you
: to compare a senior attorney working
|
t******r
发帖数: 71 | 12 just curious, is this career path for law profession very common among most
of the law school graduates?
也就是说，学医的基本上肯定是那么一个时间流程，但是学法律的呢？是一定要非常上
进和努力才能达到这个晋级速度，还是大部分人都可以做到呢？
bonus
a
【在 a**d 的大作中提到】
: You don't really know much about the medical profession, do you? Keep in
: mind the topic is to compare the income of a person who chooses to go to
: medical school vs. a person who chooses to go to law school, let us make a
: comparison:
: Year 1: A went to law school; B went to medical school
: Year 4: A starts in BigLaw as a first year associate. Salary: $160k + bonus
: . B is still a student in Medical school paying $50k to cover tuition +
: living expense.
: Year 5: A is a 2nd-yr associate, Salary $170k
|
a**d
发帖数: 31 | 13 it depends on which stage you are talking about. entering biglaw is not
that hard if you are in a good law school. a biglaw job is almost
guaranteed if you are in top6 (probably so even for t14 with today's hot job
market). once in biglaw, most people stay until they are mid-level. many
leave then because of any combination of these factors 1) hate practicing
law 2) better outside opportunities 3) got the talk that they won't make
partners. making partners is of course very hard. but incom
【在 t******r 的大作中提到】
: just curious, is this career path for law profession very common among most
: of the law school graduates?
: 也就是说，学医的基本上肯定是那么一个时间流程，但是学法律的呢？是一定要非常上
: 进和努力才能达到这个晋级速度，还是大部分人都可以做到呢？
:
: bonus
: a
|
o****e
发帖数: 195 | 14 Just a side note. In most BIGLAWs, only 2-5% of each class become partners,
the rest are "attritioned." BIGLAWs churn through people like nobody's
business, it's their business model, it's how the partners get filthy rich.
2-5% is a much smaller chance than making the top 10% of the law school
class. Once one gets in BIGLAW, the competition comes from a much tougher
crowd. Everyone is smart, hardworking, and aggressive. Also, one's career
potential depends not only on performance, but also |
t******r
发帖数: 71 | 15 哦，归根到底还是要top law school
那念top law school是不是很难呢？（不是申请，想问拿JD的过程）
part-time的可能有多高，还是必须full-time 3年？
job
many
【在 a**d 的大作中提到】
: it depends on which stage you are talking about. entering biglaw is not
: that hard if you are in a good law school. a biglaw job is almost
: guaranteed if you are in top6 (probably so even for t14 with today's hot job
: market). once in biglaw, most people stay until they are mid-level. many
: leave then because of any combination of these factors 1) hate practicing
: law 2) better outside opportunities 3) got the talk that they won't make
: partners. making partners is of course very hard. but incom
|
t******r
发帖数: 71 | 16 thanks a lot for all this info, to both you and abcd.
> I think most people reading this board will eventually make 200-300k.
this statement makes me 热血沸腾ing.
可不可以谈谈做律师的工作负荷和压力（我对patent law感兴趣）？时间精力上对家庭
的影响呢？（I am a female who intend to have at least 2 kids in 5 years from
now)
另外，如果can't make it to BIGLAWs，一般smalllaws的情况是怎样的呢？
partners,
career
【在 o****e 的大作中提到】
: Just a side note. In most BIGLAWs, only 2-5% of each class become partners,
: the rest are "attritioned." BIGLAWs churn through people like nobody's
: business, it's their business model, it's how the partners get filthy rich.
: 2-5% is a much smaller chance than making the top 10% of the law school
: class. Once one gets in BIGLAW, the competition comes from a much tougher
: crowd. Everyone is smart, hardworking, and aggressive. Also, one's career
: potential depends not only on performance, but also
|
w******a
发帖数: 1 | 17 I know quite several people working from Mckensey and some Wall Street IBs.
I guess their starting salaries are generally 95k. My understanding is that
they generally receive bigger bonus as big law associates--but I have no
idea how much (rumor goes like it could be as much or even more than the
salary, although not as high as traders).
Of course, everybody knows that now the starting salary at big laws in NY is
160k+35k bonus.
I am not sure where this 150k starting for consulting comes back. |
o****e
发帖数: 195 | 18 from
There is no easy money. The stress level is quite high if you are in the
200k range. However, the good thing is that one doesn't have to deal with
vicious people. The a-hole factor is quite low in patent law, especially
patent prosecution. Patent litigation is atotally different story, and it is
not that different from other types of litigation.
Depends. Small firms are all over the map. There are small firms where
partners make less than 200k, and there are small firms where partners |
l**********r
发帖数: 240 | 19 Arguments can get heated. Let’s just keep in mind that these are only
arguments, and whether you win or lose in arguing on this board doesn’t
really matter in reality. I am sure you will be a very competent attorney
and have a good chance in making partner somewhere. But I am still not sure
that you will make partner in a BigLaw’s US office, because I believe I
can still count those who made it with my two hands. If not, what would be
the exit, for you as well as for other people on this boa
【在 a**d 的大作中提到】
: You don't really know much about the medical profession, do you? Keep in
: mind the topic is to compare the income of a person who chooses to go to
: medical school vs. a person who chooses to go to law school, let us make a
: comparison:
: Year 1: A went to law school; B went to medical school
: Year 4: A starts in BigLaw as a first year associate. Salary: $160k + bonus
: . B is still a student in Medical school paying $50k to cover tuition +
: living expense.
: Year 5: A is a 2nd-yr associate, Salary $170k
|
t******r
发帖数: 71 | 20 inspiring! thank you very much.
how about the flexibility of work? for example maternal leave.
如果需要时间做别的事情，可以把工作量和收入降下来想不挣钱就不挣钱吗？还是一旦
on track就停不下来，就算去small firms，收入降低工作量还是减不下来？
is
how
【在 o****e 的大作中提到】
: from
: There is no easy money. The stress level is quite high if you are in the
: 200k range. However, the good thing is that one doesn't have to deal with
: vicious people. The a-hole factor is quite low in patent law, especially
: patent prosecution. Patent litigation is atotally different story, and it is
: not that different from other types of litigation.
: Depends. Small firms are all over the map. There are small firms where
: partners make less than 200k, and there are small firms where partners
|
|
|
o****e
发帖数: 195 | 21 It all depends. If one is good at what he does and brings great value to
the firm, he can strike any deals he wants with the firm and the partners
will be willing to negotiate (assuming the firm is flexible enough).
But if you are just like the rest 80% of the crowd, then the partners will
not get out of their way to make special arrangements.
However, to become that special person with extra leverage, one typically
has to work much harder than everyone else and make the partner rely on him.
【在 t******r 的大作中提到】
: inspiring! thank you very much.
: how about the flexibility of work? for example maternal leave.
: 如果需要时间做别的事情，可以把工作量和收入降下来想不挣钱就不挣钱吗？还是一旦
: on track就停不下来，就算去small firms，收入降低工作量还是减不下来？
:
: is
: how
|
t******r
发帖数: 71 | 22 it's so nice of you.
我再得寸进尺问一个问题吧，那对于我们F1来说这个行业的身份问题是不是比较tricky
，我看很多人都是有了绿卡才去念law school的，也听说律所不喜欢替人办绿卡，是这
样的吗？还有，如果找工作需要sponsor H1B，是不是机会就少了很多呢？
him.
【在 o****e 的大作中提到】
: It all depends. If one is good at what he does and brings great value to
: the firm, he can strike any deals he wants with the firm and the partners
: will be willing to negotiate (assuming the firm is flexible enough).
: But if you are just like the rest 80% of the crowd, then the partners will
: not get out of their way to make special arrangements.
: However, to become that special person with extra leverage, one typically
: has to work much harder than everyone else and make the partner rely on him.
|
i****y
发帖数: 5184 | 23 H1b好像问题不大，关于以后的身份，同问。
teacher同学你是已经拿到law firm offer了还是打算申请？
tricky
【在 t******r 的大作中提到】
: it's so nice of you.
: 我再得寸进尺问一个问题吧，那对于我们F1来说这个行业的身份问题是不是比较tricky
: ，我看很多人都是有了绿卡才去念law school的，也听说律所不喜欢替人办绿卡，是这
: 样的吗？还有，如果找工作需要sponsor H1B，是不是机会就少了很多呢？
:
: him.
|
t******r
发帖数: 71 | 24 没有啊，我是打算找这方面的工作，现在还是理工科在读学生，因为我不想离开NYC，但
是在NYC专业对口的工作不好找，所以自从知道可以申请patent相关工作之后就很心动，
但是对于law这个行当不太了解，所以来取经。你呢？
【在 i****y 的大作中提到】
: H1b好像问题不大，关于以后的身份，同问。
: teacher同学你是已经拿到law firm offer了还是打算申请？
:
: tricky
|
i****y
发帖数: 5184 | 25 what's your major then?
I am not sure whether Patent law is a better choice than industry job (e.g.
engineer).
，但
动，
【在 t******r 的大作中提到】
: 没有啊，我是打算找这方面的工作，现在还是理工科在读学生，因为我不想离开NYC，但
: 是在NYC专业对口的工作不好找，所以自从知道可以申请patent相关工作之后就很心动，
: 但是对于law这个行当不太了解，所以来取经。你呢？
|
a**d
发帖数: 31 | 26 A good balanced view from someone who has been in the trenches. Thanks for
sharing otheme.
partners,
career
but how much more can he make 10 years down the road? Consulting firms are
just like law firms and are notorious for churning through people. There is
no recipe to copy for making 1m.
【在 o****e 的大作中提到】
: Just a side note. In most BIGLAWs, only 2-5% of each class become partners,
: the rest are "attritioned." BIGLAWs churn through people like nobody's
: business, it's their business model, it's how the partners get filthy rich.
: 2-5% is a much smaller chance than making the top 10% of the law school
: class. Once one gets in BIGLAW, the competition comes from a much tougher
: crowd. Everyone is smart, hardworking, and aggressive. Also, one's career
: potential depends not only on performance, but also
|
a**d
发帖数: 31 | 27 1L year is tough at any law school. You should expect to study for long
hours just to finish the reading assignments. But once you get your 2L
summer job offer, you can pretty much cruise over the next two years.
Part time is definitely possible. Among T14, only Georgetown has a part
time program. You can search the web for discussions on part time vs. full
time. I think the consensus is that you will be ok if you go to a decent
part time program and can do IP.
【在 t******r 的大作中提到】
: 哦，归根到底还是要top law school
: 那念top law school是不是很难呢？（不是申请，想问拿JD的过程）
: part-time的可能有多高，还是必须full-time 3年？
:
: job
: many
|
t******r
发帖数: 71 | 28 is it possible that i become a tech specialist or sci advisor first, then tr
y to pass the patent bar by self-teaching in one year, then work as a patent
agent, and decide when to attend law school later? i may have to stick to N
YC for a couple of years in the near future. how are Columbia and NYU law sc
hools?
thank you for sharing, too! very very informative for a 菜鸟 like me.
full
【在 a**d 的大作中提到】
: 1L year is tough at any law school. You should expect to study for long
: hours just to finish the reading assignments. But once you get your 2L
: summer job offer, you can pretty much cruise over the next two years.
: Part time is definitely possible. Among T14, only Georgetown has a part
: time program. You can search the web for discussions on part time vs. full
: time. I think the consensus is that you will be ok if you go to a decent
: part time program and can do IP.
|
t******r
发帖数: 71 | 29 i am applied science major.
i am sick of working in lab and do not want to do research any more.
but i am not certain on giving up my science/engineering background complete
ly, and i feel technical writing is ok for me.
i thought of becoming an educator, too, yet as you know they are underpaid..
.
.
【在 i****y 的大作中提到】
: what's your major then?
: I am not sure whether Patent law is a better choice than industry job (e.g.
: engineer).
:
: ，但
: 动，
|
a**d
发帖数: 31 | 30
This is just bizarre. What does this "heated argument doesn't matter in
reality" statement have to do with anything? I am not trying to "win" a
contest here. It is all about us having a discussion on a topic that we
both care.
Reading your post makes me realize that you may not have understood my point
at all. Let me do a recap for you. The poster that I replied to stated
that comparing with MBAs and MDs, JDs don't earn as well. I responded to
say that I can understand the point he is tr
【在 l**********r 的大作中提到】
: Arguments can get heated. Let’s just keep in mind that these are only
: arguments, and whether you win or lose in arguing on this board doesn’t
: really matter in reality. I am sure you will be a very competent attorney
: and have a good chance in making partner somewhere. But I am still not sure
: that you will make partner in a BigLaw’s US office, because I believe I
: can still count those who made it with my two hands. If not, what would be
: the exit, for you as well as for other people on this boa
|
|
|
t******r
发帖数: 71 | 31 学法律的就是能言善辩reasoning强啊！赞叹！
我打算以后在这里蹲点提高英文阅读能力，为law school做积极的准备！
point
statement
【在 a**d 的大作中提到】
:
: This is just bizarre. What does this "heated argument doesn't matter in
: reality" statement have to do with anything? I am not trying to "win" a
: contest here. It is all about us having a discussion on a topic that we
: both care.
: Reading your post makes me realize that you may not have understood my point
: at all. Let me do a recap for you. The poster that I replied to stated
: that comparing with MBAs and MDs, JDs don't earn as well. I responded to
: say that I can understand the point he is tr
|
o****e
发帖数: 195 | 32 abcd, littletigger, we're all on the same boat once we stepped into law
school... everyone is just trying to make a buck. our common enemy are the
law schools who rob us blind, the partners who suck our blood, and uncle sam
who takes away half of our hard-earned money and gives it to lazy people.
no harsh feelings my friends. cheers. |
t******r
发帖数: 71 | 33 这里人气不多。
这样的讨论真好，让我了解很多的信息。
各位老大辩论归辩论，都别上心，多多指教像我这样的菜鸟吧。
//顿首
the
sam who takes away half of our hard-earned money and gives it to lazy people.
【在 o****e 的大作中提到】
: abcd, littletigger, we're all on the same boat once we stepped into law
: school... everyone is just trying to make a buck. our common enemy are the
: law schools who rob us blind, the partners who suck our blood, and uncle sam
: who takes away half of our hard-earned money and gives it to lazy people.
: no harsh feelings my friends. cheers.
|
l**********r
发帖数: 240 | 34 I am just saying that you are arguing on a point that you cannot win and was
trying to be polite. If you don’t get it, I just wasted it. All your
posts evidenced an attitude that you are better than anyone else, that the
path you have chosen is better than that of other people. Perhaps it’s
because you went to Harvard or worked for Microsoft---I am only talking
about this hypothetically, or perhaps it’s just your personality. Remember
to show that to your employers, maybe they will like it,
【在 a**d 的大作中提到】
:
: This is just bizarre. What does this "heated argument doesn't matter in
: reality" statement have to do with anything? I am not trying to "win" a
: contest here. It is all about us having a discussion on a topic that we
: both care.
: Reading your post makes me realize that you may not have understood my point
: at all. Let me do a recap for you. The poster that I replied to stated
: that comparing with MBAs and MDs, JDs don't earn as well. I responded to
: say that I can understand the point he is tr
|
D**********s
发帖数: 320 | 35 Getting a GC takes very long time unless you marry a citizen.
tricky
【在 t******r 的大作中提到】
: it's so nice of you.
: 我再得寸进尺问一个问题吧，那对于我们F1来说这个行业的身份问题是不是比较tricky
: ，我看很多人都是有了绿卡才去念law school的，也听说律所不喜欢替人办绿卡，是这
: 样的吗？还有，如果找工作需要sponsor H1B，是不是机会就少了很多呢？
:
: him.
|
a**d
发帖数: 31 | 36 All right, littletigger. I don't think we can have any fruitful substantive
discussion if you are holding a beef against me. I am sorry if any of the
things I said offended you. I only wanted to discuss the issue. Nothing
personal.
Let me share with you why I decided to put in my 2 cents on this thread. I
want the people who are pondering about a legal career to be able to make
an informed decision. I think broad statements like JDs don't earn as much
as MDs and MBAs can be misleading if
【在 l**********r 的大作中提到】
: I am just saying that you are arguing on a point that you cannot win and was
: trying to be polite. If you don’t get it, I just wasted it. All your
: posts evidenced an attitude that you are better than anyone else, that the
: path you have chosen is better than that of other people. Perhaps it’s
: because you went to Harvard or worked for Microsoft---I am only talking
: about this hypothetically, or perhaps it’s just your personality. Remember
: to show that to your employers, maybe they will like it,
|
m******t
发帖数: 1694 | 37 all patent lawyers, any corporate/tax lawyers out there? what's the career
perspective in corporate/tax? thx
substantive
the
I
much
I
【在 a**d 的大作中提到】
: All right, littletigger. I don't think we can have any fruitful substantive
: discussion if you are holding a beef against me. I am sorry if any of the
: things I said offended you. I only wanted to discuss the issue. Nothing
: personal.
: Let me share with you why I decided to put in my 2 cents on this thread. I
: want the people who are pondering about a legal career to be able to make
: an informed decision. I think broad statements like JDs don't earn as much
: as MDs and MBAs can be misleading if
|
l**********r
发帖数: 240 | 38 I apologize for my intermeddling. After all, you didn't pick on my comments
to start with. I should have just kept silent. In any case, it's not a
big deal. I did enjoy reading your posts as well.
substantive
the
I
much
I
【在 a**d 的大作中提到】
: All right, littletigger. I don't think we can have any fruitful substantive
: discussion if you are holding a beef against me. I am sorry if any of the
: things I said offended you. I only wanted to discuss the issue. Nothing
: personal.
: Let me share with you why I decided to put in my 2 cents on this thread. I
: want the people who are pondering about a legal career to be able to make
: an informed decision. I think broad statements like JDs don't earn as much
: as MDs and MBAs can be misleading if
|
b******s
发帖数: 33 | 39 Tax: get a JD and then do TAX LLM at NYU - top firm jobs almost guaranteed
Corporate: finding a job shouldn't be a problem if you have a JD from a good
school with nice grades. but biglaw firms are still hard to get in.
career
【在 m******t 的大作中提到】
: all patent lawyers, any corporate/tax lawyers out there? what's the career
: perspective in corporate/tax? thx
:
: substantive
: the
: I
: much
: I
|
E*****P
发帖数: 591 | 40 For Tax-law firm, I heard they kind of like people have tax background, such
as accounting. I knew a girl from Taiwan, graduated from Accounting major,
studied in a mid-rank law school in US and got into big tax law firm (She
said those firms like people with accounting backgroud) in a Mid-west city,
working at least 60 hours per week in first year, and have to bring some
works home second year.
career
【在 m******t 的大作中提到】
: all patent lawyers, any corporate/tax lawyers out there? what's the career
: perspective in corporate/tax? thx
:
: substantive
: the
: I
: much
: I
|
|
|
m******t
发帖数: 1694 | 41 corporate: someone was saying big law chews through ppl, what does
corporate lawyers do after,say, 5-7 yrs in big laws? thx
good
【在 b******s 的大作中提到】
: Tax: get a JD and then do TAX LLM at NYU - top firm jobs almost guaranteed
: Corporate: finding a job shouldn't be a problem if you have a JD from a good
: school with nice grades. but biglaw firms are still hard to get in.
:
: career
|
b******s
发帖数: 33 | 42 generally you have to make a decision in your 4th-5th year. either go in-
house (more popular these days are financial institutions) or stay on hoping
for partnership. if you do well at a top firm, wait for calls from
headhunters.
【在 m******t 的大作中提到】
: corporate: someone was saying big law chews through ppl, what does
: corporate lawyers do after,say, 5-7 yrs in big laws? thx
:
: good
|
m******t
发帖数: 1694 | 43 "financial institutions", as in Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sach, etc? how much
do these in house pay? thx
k
hoping
【在 b******s 的大作中提到】
: generally you have to make a decision in your 4th-5th year. either go in-
: house (more popular these days are financial institutions) or stay on hoping
: for partnership. if you do well at a top firm, wait for calls from
: headhunters.
|
c**d
发帖数: 3888 | 44 "If you want to get rich, you've chosen the wrong profession."
I see disappointment in their eyes every time I tell this to a 1L or a fresh
LLM, the same disappointment when someone told this to me when I was a 1L. |
i****y
发帖数: 5184 | 45 Then "what profession should you choose, if you want to get rich?"
fresh
【在 c**d 的大作中提到】
: "If you want to get rich, you've chosen the wrong profession."
: I see disappointment in their eyes every time I tell this to a 1L or a fresh
: LLM, the same disappointment when someone told this to me when I was a 1L.
|
c**d
发帖数: 3888 | 46 Business, banking, etc.
There are more risks in those fields, however. Law is a field that allows
you to live comfortably but won't make you rich, and also has less risk.
This is why lawyers tend to be risk-averse people.
【在 i****y 的大作中提到】
: Then "what profession should you choose, if you want to get rich?"
:
: fresh
|
t******r
发帖数: 71 | 47 how rich is rich? everyone has different standard bah
这个职业稳定性如何，专业人士一般不都是铁饭碗嘛？
还有就是投入产出的比例。
fresh
【在 c**d 的大作中提到】
: "If you want to get rich, you've chosen the wrong profession."
: I see disappointment in their eyes every time I tell this to a 1L or a fresh
: LLM, the same disappointment when someone told this to me when I was a 1L.
|
t******r
发帖数: 71 | 48 great, this all that i need.
还有就是这里的律师大哥大姐们怎么都这么严肃啊？！
平时上班的时候是不是也不能随便开玩笑呢？问一下律所的工作氛围。
【在 c**d 的大作中提到】
: Business, banking, etc.
: There are more risks in those fields, however. Law is a field that allows
: you to live comfortably but won't make you rich, and also has less risk.
: This is why lawyers tend to be risk-averse people.
|
i****y
发帖数: 5184 | 49 Lawyers are paid ok, I think. Classifying lawyers to non-rich people will
make a lot, a lot of people upset. :) They are just not "super" rich.
I think you are very right, those "super" rich people have to bear risks,
high risks actually. banking, on average, doesn't neccessarily beat law, but
there are certain super stars who are making really good money. And those
super stars make people feel bankers are all super rich.
Am I getting it right?
【在 c**d 的大作中提到】
: Business, banking, etc.
: There are more risks in those fields, however. Law is a field that allows
: you to live comfortably but won't make you rich, and also has less risk.
: This is why lawyers tend to be risk-averse people.
|
i****y
发帖数: 5184 | 50 Agree, that's what I want too. A good balance of everything.
Don't worry, teacher, you will get used to it. Lawyers are actually fun
people. They just can't stand anything that sounds potentially wrong to them. |
|
|
c**d
发帖数: 3888 | 51 160K is definitely "okay," but it's not rich. It may get someone from modest
backgrounds (like many of us who immigrated from China) quite excited, but
it's middle-class.
Let's not forget most young lawyers cannot make 160K. Most immigration
lawyers who hang out a shingle struggle to keep themselves fed. You could
also work in the government, public interest, or small firms and make less
than an engineer does.
The work atmosphere varies by firm. Some firms are laid-back, some are not.
I have to |
i****y
发帖数: 5184 | 52 收到前辈教诲
争取以后做个fun laywer，呵呵
modest
but
.
people
【在 c**d 的大作中提到】
: 160K is definitely "okay," but it's not rich. It may get someone from modest
: backgrounds (like many of us who immigrated from China) quite excited, but
: it's middle-class.
: Let's not forget most young lawyers cannot make 160K. Most immigration
: lawyers who hang out a shingle struggle to keep themselves fed. You could
: also work in the government, public interest, or small firms and make less
: than an engineer does.
: The work atmosphere varies by firm. Some firms are laid-back, some are not.
: I have to
|
t******r
发帖数: 71 | 53 那lawyer和engineer比呢，两者都是mid-class还是前者比后者强？
还有说到严肃紧张，law profession和financial profession哪个的stress level更高？
modest
but
.
people
【在 c**d 的大作中提到】
: 160K is definitely "okay," but it's not rich. It may get someone from modest
: backgrounds (like many of us who immigrated from China) quite excited, but
: it's middle-class.
: Let's not forget most young lawyers cannot make 160K. Most immigration
: lawyers who hang out a shingle struggle to keep themselves fed. You could
: also work in the government, public interest, or small firms and make less
: than an engineer does.
: The work atmosphere varies by firm. Some firms are laid-back, some are not.
: I have to
|
c**d
发帖数: 3888 | 54 I assume for the purpose of this discussion we mean "BigLaw" when we say "
law".
We lawyers love to hate the hours. But engineers work at least as hard as
lawyers and don't get paid as nice. In addition, upward mobility is more
limited for engineers. As a lawyer, you could go into any field (firm,
government, corporate, academics) and have the potential to go to the top of
an organization.
As to law vs. finance, I guess it depends on what kind of legal and finance
jobs you're comparing. If we co
【在 t******r 的大作中提到】
: 那lawyer和engineer比呢，两者都是mid-class还是前者比后者强？
: 还有说到严肃紧张，law profession和financial profession哪个的stress level更高？
:
: modest
: but
: .
: people
|
t******r
发帖数: 71 | 55 the discussion is getting hot!! thanks a lot.
what is "billables"?
of
finance
【在 c**d 的大作中提到】
: I assume for the purpose of this discussion we mean "BigLaw" when we say "
: law".
: We lawyers love to hate the hours. But engineers work at least as hard as
: lawyers and don't get paid as nice. In addition, upward mobility is more
: limited for engineers. As a lawyer, you could go into any field (firm,
: government, corporate, academics) and have the potential to go to the top of
: an organization.
: As to law vs. finance, I guess it depends on what kind of legal and finance
: jobs you're comparing. If we co
|
m******t
发帖数: 1694 | 56 "billable hour", firms usually have requirement of minium billable hours a
lawyer has to achieve, usually 1800+ /yr.
【在 t******r 的大作中提到】
: the discussion is getting hot!! thanks a lot.
: what is "billables"?
:
: of
: finance
|
t******r
发帖数: 71 | 57 i see
不错啊，假设一天6小时billable，那1800就是300天，还有65天休息，如果每个星期休
息足两天，65-52还有13天假期，如果两个星期休息一天，或者三个星期休息两天，那还
有更多的假期
correct me
a
【在 m******t 的大作中提到】
: "billable hour", firms usually have requirement of minium billable hours a
: lawyer has to achieve, usually 1800+ /yr.
|
c**d
发帖数: 3888 | |
i****y
发帖数: 5184 | 59 what's the difference between billable and billed hours?
a
【在 m******t 的大作中提到】
: "billable hour", firms usually have requirement of minium billable hours a
: lawyer has to achieve, usually 1800+ /yr.
|
c**d
发帖数: 3888 | 60 There is a big difference between billable hours and the actual number of
hours worked.
A rule of thumb is to bill 2 hours one needs to spend 3 hours working. That
means to bill 1800 hours, you should plan to work 2700 hours. Not to mention
at most BigLaw firms, 1800 is way too low. 2100 billable is more like the
average, which translates to 3150 hours worked.
那还
【在 t******r 的大作中提到】
: i see
: 不错啊，假设一天6小时billable，那1800就是300天，还有65天休息，如果每个星期休
: 息足两天，65-52还有13天假期，如果两个星期休息一天，或者三个星期休息两天，那还
: 有更多的假期
: correct me
:
: a
|
|
|
t******r
发帖数: 71 | 61 555555555555555555
你把我的美好梦想击得粉碎
那慢慢干行不行？
That
mention
【在 c**d 的大作中提到】
: There is a big difference between billable hours and the actual number of
: hours worked.
: A rule of thumb is to bill 2 hours one needs to spend 3 hours working. That
: means to bill 1800 hours, you should plan to work 2700 hours. Not to mention
: at most BigLaw firms, 1800 is way too low. 2100 billable is more like the
: average, which translates to 3150 hours worked.
:
: 那还
|
c**d
发帖数: 3888 | 62 I guess you're referring to the difference between "billable hours" and "
hours actually billed to the a client." There are two scenarios I can think
of where these two are different.
A. If you do pro bono or recruiting, for example, it may count towards your
annual billable hours requirement. But those hours don't actually get billed
to a client and the firm does not get direct revenue for those hours.
B. You work 5 hours for a "real" client. But before the bill goes to the
client, the partners
【在 i****y 的大作中提到】
: what's the difference between billable and billed hours?
:
: a
|
i****y
发帖数: 5184 | 63 那就要走人啦
【在 t******r 的大作中提到】
: 555555555555555555
: 你把我的美好梦想击得粉碎
: 那慢慢干行不行？
:
: That
: mention
|
t******r
发帖数: 71 | 64 还真是挺残酷的
IP也这样？
那顺便再请教一下律所里的maternity leave的情况，是不是特不招人待见？
think
your
billed
the
【在 c**d 的大作中提到】
: I guess you're referring to the difference between "billable hours" and "
: hours actually billed to the a client." There are two scenarios I can think
: of where these two are different.
: A. If you do pro bono or recruiting, for example, it may count towards your
: annual billable hours requirement. But those hours don't actually get billed
: to a client and the firm does not get direct revenue for those hours.
: B. You work 5 hours for a "real" client. But before the bill goes to the
: client, the partners
|
c**d
发帖数: 3888 | 65 You only have so much time. No matter if you're slow or fast, you have to
put in certain amount of hours.
160K does not come easily.
【在 t******r 的大作中提到】
: 555555555555555555
: 你把我的美好梦想击得粉碎
: 那慢慢干行不行？
:
: That
: mention
|
t******r
发帖数: 71 | 66 会被written off
我今儿个可学了太多新词了
多谢czjd大虾
【在 i****y 的大作中提到】
: 那就要走人啦
|
t******r
发帖数: 71 | 67 那我不要160K了，我去小地方，拿80K-90K是不是可以轻松一半呢？
还是除了机会少钱少之外别的好处没多少？
【在 c**d 的大作中提到】
: You only have so much time. No matter if you're slow or fast, you have to
: put in certain amount of hours.
: 160K does not come easily.
|
c**d
发帖数: 3888 | 68 I don't think there's any significant difference across the practice areas.
IP people have the same billable requirements.
Don't ask about maternity leave on interviews. Do your own research. Some
firms quite accommodating. If you're a woman and want to have a balanced
life, I suggest you avoid BigLaw. None of the woman partners in my office
has kids.
【在 t******r 的大作中提到】
: 还真是挺残酷的
: IP也这样？
: 那顺便再请教一下律所里的maternity leave的情况，是不是特不招人待见？
:
: think
: your
: billed
: the
|
c**d
发帖数: 3888 | 69 The benefit is you will have a life.
80K-90K sounds like MidLaw or in-house. I have no first-hand experience with
those practice settings. While I wouldn't say it'll be 轻松一半, there's
definitely less pressure in those settings. Many people go to BigLaw with
the intention of going in-house a few years later.
【在 t******r 的大作中提到】
: 那我不要160K了，我去小地方，拿80K-90K是不是可以轻松一半呢？
: 还是除了机会少钱少之外别的好处没多少？
|
t******r
发帖数: 71 | 70 天哪~~~
愁了-.-|||
又想多生几个娃
又想娃娃有钱花
这可咋办涅？
.
【在 c**d 的大作中提到】
: I don't think there's any significant difference across the practice areas.
: IP people have the same billable requirements.
: Don't ask about maternity leave on interviews. Do your own research. Some
: firms quite accommodating. If you're a woman and want to have a balanced
: life, I suggest you avoid BigLaw. None of the woman partners in my office
: has kids.
|
|
|
t******r
发帖数: 71 | 71 总算又看到一线希望了
那做patent agent呢
也是一样demanding？
with
【在 c**d 的大作中提到】
: The benefit is you will have a life.
: 80K-90K sounds like MidLaw or in-house. I have no first-hand experience with
: those practice settings. While I wouldn't say it'll be 轻松一半, there's
: definitely less pressure in those settings. Many people go to BigLaw with
: the intention of going in-house a few years later.
|
n*******g
发帖数: 216 | 72 听说工作比较boring .....
谁说说patent agent 和patent attorney 工作内容有多大区别？
【在 t******r 的大作中提到】
: 总算又看到一线希望了
: 那做patent agent呢
: 也是一样demanding？
:
: with
|
i****y
发帖数: 5184 | 73 Hehe, I know a woman partner who has 5 kids and she said that's easy.
I think she is superwoman.
.
【在 c**d 的大作中提到】
: I don't think there's any significant difference across the practice areas.
: IP people have the same billable requirements.
: Don't ask about maternity leave on interviews. Do your own research. Some
: firms quite accommodating. If you're a woman and want to have a balanced
: life, I suggest you avoid BigLaw. None of the woman partners in my office
: has kids.
|
n*******g
发帖数: 216 | 74 5 kids.........
真佩服要这么多孩子的母亲。。。。
【在 i****y 的大作中提到】
: Hehe, I know a woman partner who has 5 kids and she said that's easy.
: I think she is superwoman.
:
: .
|
c**d
发帖数: 3888 | 75 I've also met a woman like that. First woman partner in a V20 firm.
Extremely busy but takes good care of her 2 kids. She is truly something to
admire. Most of us cannot balance work and life so well.
【在 i****y 的大作中提到】
: Hehe, I know a woman partner who has 5 kids and she said that's easy.
: I think she is superwoman.
:
: .
|
t******r
发帖数: 71 | 76 小声问一下，不是故意冒犯，大虾你还能在上班时间抽空回答大家的问题，看来还不算
忙得焦头烂额嘛
to
【在 c**d 的大作中提到】
: I've also met a woman like that. First woman partner in a V20 firm.
: Extremely busy but takes good care of her 2 kids. She is truly something to
: admire. Most of us cannot balance work and life so well.
|
c**d
发帖数: 3888 | 77 I'm a 3L. Worked in a firm last summer.
【在 t******r 的大作中提到】
: 小声问一下，不是故意冒犯，大虾你还能在上班时间抽空回答大家的问题，看来还不算
: 忙得焦头烂额嘛
:
: to
|
o****e
发帖数: 195 | |
t******r
发帖数: 71 | 79 哦，原来如此，有空可以谈谈三年来的感受嘛
【在 c**d 的大作中提到】
: I'm a 3L. Worked in a firm last summer.
|
c**d
发帖数: 3888 | 80 I felt that it was simply a ticket to jobs, not an education.
I know some people on here will disagree. But since we're talking about "
feelings," everyone's will be different.
【在 t******r 的大作中提到】
: 哦，原来如此，有空可以谈谈三年来的感受嘛
|
|
|
t******r
发帖数: 71 | 81 this ticket is so expensive
comparing to other professional degree except for MD
【在 c**d 的大作中提到】
: I felt that it was simply a ticket to jobs, not an education.
: I know some people on here will disagree. But since we're talking about "
: feelings," everyone's will be different.
|
b******e
发帖数: 95 | 82 总之，想发大财的还是不要读law school了吧，绝对悔的你肠子都发青。
至于在美国的BigLaw升equity partner, 那对中国人来说基本就是不现实的事情。做不
到partner, 在law firm呆久了，日子也不会好过的。二三十万美刀一年那么容易让你
拿啊。 |
i****y
发帖数: 5184 | 83 What do you suggest to do as a Chinese?
Is there easy life on the Wall street though?
Is it easy for a Chinese to climb to the top?
【在 b******e 的大作中提到】
: 总之，想发大财的还是不要读law school了吧，绝对悔的你肠子都发青。
: 至于在美国的BigLaw升equity partner, 那对中国人来说基本就是不现实的事情。做不
: 到partner, 在law firm呆久了，日子也不会好过的。二三十万美刀一年那么容易让你
: 拿啊。
|
E*****P
发帖数: 591 | 84 中国人在美国想出头，可能还是要从事科学或工程，或金融（这个可能也跟个人有关）
。少数人在哪都能一样，普遍来说，除了理科工程，想出头只能做与中国有关的业务,
抓客户。
（我的看法） |
i****y
发帖数: 5184 | 85 理工科做工程师更是难想rich了，不过是个不错而已。
【在 E*****P 的大作中提到】
: 中国人在美国想出头，可能还是要从事科学或工程，或金融（这个可能也跟个人有关）
: 。少数人在哪都能一样，普遍来说，除了理科工程，想出头只能做与中国有关的业务,
: 抓客户。
: （我的看法）
|
i****y
发帖数: 5184 | 86 说起start up，以前在商学院上课学过一个case，有一律师，同时做技术公司start up
，专门搞来卖掉那种，形势好的时候就基本上全职做这个，形势不好没的做了，就做会
律师，所以他说律师是个很好的职业。呵呵
是个以色列gg
有中国人这么干得不？
多少 |
i****y
发帖数: 5184 | 87 金融成本也不低啊，quant上那么多人phd读完，继续考GRE，再申MFE，一年学费也不少
，而且也不能保证出来就有多好的工作啊。 |
E*****P
发帖数: 591 | 88 这人也忒牛了；不知道跟他的以色列背景有没有关系。
其实作为华人律师，能够帮自己人做大做强(在美国)，也应该是不错的道路，比如软件
，生物，工程方面的法律服务；国内现在有钱人过来的多，有很多流动资金，帮助收购
business 应该机会也有。(只是我的猜测，请 Babeface, czjd 等评论一下)
up
【在 i****y 的大作中提到】
: 说起start up，以前在商学院上课学过一个case，有一律师，同时做技术公司start up
: ，专门搞来卖掉那种，形势好的时候就基本上全职做这个，形势不好没的做了，就做会
: 律师，所以他说律师是个很好的职业。呵呵
: 是个以色列gg
: 有中国人这么干得不？
:
: 多少
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c**d
发帖数: 3888 | 89 I don't think there's much money in serving the rich immigrants from China.
No offense, they just aren't that rich. If you survey the usual individual
clients at a large firm's trust & estate group, and you will see what being
rich entails.
The clients of my firm's trust & estate clients drive cars that APPRECIATES
in value over time. One of the clients was crying during the bubble burst
because her net worth went from 400 million down to 200 million. |
E*****P
发帖数: 591 | 90 Totally agree. But I think its very difficult to find such clients if you
are Chinese; as long as ties between China and U.S. get stronger, there
should be a good market for Chinese lawyers. And, I believe most of Chinese
lawyers want to be partners or their own boss no matter how much they earn (
I mean when after several years, income is not the most critical issue
anymore)
.
being
APPRECIATES
【在 c**d 的大作中提到】
: I don't think there's much money in serving the rich immigrants from China.
: No offense, they just aren't that rich. If you survey the usual individual
: clients at a large firm's trust & estate group, and you will see what being
: rich entails.
: The clients of my firm's trust & estate clients drive cars that APPRECIATES
: in value over time. One of the clients was crying during the bubble burst
: because her net worth went from 400 million down to 200 million.
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c**d
发帖数: 3888 | 91 If you're talking about solo practice, a lot of immigration lawyers already
do that.
If you want to do something China-related, energy law may be something worth
looking into. This is just my hunch, not a forecast -- China will be
increasingly energy-hungry for the next a few decades. It's going to have to
learn to cooperate with the U.S. in its search for more energy resources.
Chinese
(
【在 E*****P 的大作中提到】
: Totally agree. But I think its very difficult to find such clients if you
: are Chinese; as long as ties between China and U.S. get stronger, there
: should be a good market for Chinese lawyers. And, I believe most of Chinese
: lawyers want to be partners or their own boss no matter how much they earn (
: I mean when after several years, income is not the most critical issue
: anymore)
:
: .
: being
: APPRECIATES
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b******s
发帖数: 33 | 92 good point. that's exactly why Baker Botts opened office in BJ just very
recently.
already
worth
to
【在 c**d 的大作中提到】
: If you're talking about solo practice, a lot of immigration lawyers already
: do that.
: If you want to do something China-related, energy law may be something worth
: looking into. This is just my hunch, not a forecast -- China will be
: increasingly energy-hungry for the next a few decades. It's going to have to
: learn to cooperate with the U.S. in its search for more energy resources.
:
: Chinese
: (
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b**********n
发帖数: 141 | 93 I have learned a lot from your previous arguments. I am going to have a Ph.D. in Biochemistry and Molecular Biology by the end of this year and will go to do a summer internship in a Biglaw (I guess so, but I am not sure what Biglaw is in your eyes.)
I am married and I am going to have kids in the future too. I plan to follow the track: techical advisor/patent agent-law school-Big law associate. I wonder when will be a better timing for me to have a maternal leave, after a few years working as |
c**d
发帖数: 3888 | 94 I don't think one should "plan" to become partner. Shooting for partnership,
maybe, but not planning it. Do you know the percentage of 1st year
associates who will eventually make partner? 5%. This is equivalent to
making top 2% in law school.
I think the exit options are pretty good for an IP senior associate. In the
Silicon Valley it seems that most of them can find cushy in-house jobs.
Ph.D. in Biochemistry and Molecular Biology by the end of this year and will
go to do a summer internship
【在 b**********n 的大作中提到】
: I have learned a lot from your previous arguments. I am going to have a Ph.D. in Biochemistry and Molecular Biology by the end of this year and will go to do a summer internship in a Biglaw (I guess so, but I am not sure what Biglaw is in your eyes.)
: I am married and I am going to have kids in the future too. I plan to follow the track: techical advisor/patent agent-law school-Big law associate. I wonder when will be a better timing for me to have a maternal leave, after a few years working as
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