R***y
发帖数: 14 | 1 某阿三论坛上看到的关于抽签公平性与公司的讨论，看来ICC真是毒瘤！
原帖：
http://redbus2us.com/unofficial-h1b-2014-news-high-mail-volume-
gt April 6, 2013 at 6:53 am
Is it a dumb lottery process or is it smart enough to check which company
applied? Is it fair to not give let’s say 20 visas google applied and give
5000 visas to TCS. I believe there is some intelligence, there is some
criteria to distinguish us based companies from Indian based companies. I
really don’t know though. What do you guys think.
REPLY
San Ch April 6, 2013 at 7:26 am
Not sure how this happens, but I would love it if the system gives more
priority to small and good companies like Google(which has less number of
petitions) as opposed to TCS/Infosys/Wipro etc where number of petitions is
very high
REPLY
gt April 6, 2013 at 8:19 am
I am not saying any company is a bad company. I am just saying USCIS might
give preference to these US based companies because they actually tend to
hire people here and get them work in US only, while many companies in India
get the visa just for the sake of getting it. I know many friends (having
H1B Visas)who are sitting in India and have been waiting for the opportunity
to come. Basically they are spoiling the chances of valid H1B petitions.
Again, I really don’t know how it works and I don’t want to disparage
anyone over here.
I just hope it’s not a dumb lottery!!!! Good luck all!!
REPLY
Yours April 6, 2013 at 8:25 am
Really? So those companies get H1b’s for employees just in case they need
their services in the U.S. within the next few years? That would explain why
I keep seeing people on here talking about their old H1b that was never
used. I always wondered why anyone would have an H1b and then not use it but
what you’re saying makes sense.
It’s a shame.
REPLY
San Ch April 6, 2013 at 8:35 am
This is how business is done for these companies. Although most of the H1B
employees would travel between Oct 1 – Dec 1 but depending on the
requirements, other can travel anytime till the visa is valid. Out of this
list, there are many who would resign or would not get any opportunities and
those H1B would never be used
REPLY
gt April 6, 2013 at 9:56 am
Yes for sure, most of the companies in India have rotation policy now. They
want to rotate the people onsite. So they just apply for more visas than
they actually need. If the opportunity is there, these companies rotate
people otherwise they are just sitting on the visas spoiling valid
contenders.
No wonder the cap gets filled because of these petitions and I really hope
USCIS is not oblivious about it.
REPLY
gt April 6, 2013 at 9:58 am
They call it the computer generated random selection (so called “lottry”).
We all are programmers here and we know it’s not hard to put if else in
their programs.
No one knows how they do it, USCIS has never disclosed anything.
REPLY
asd April 6, 2013 at 5:15 pm
No we are not all programmers. Sorry but there are other professionals here
too.
shekhar agrawal April 6, 2013 at 4:04 pm
Truly said.
Its unfair to have lottery for genuine petitions. Few genuine petitions
loose their breath being piled upon thousands of petitions by outsourcers/
consultants. I do not intend to disparage anyone but here is a small case.
Just think logically.
X Startups in Silicon valley: X * 2 or 3 petitions
Google: 300 petitions
Facebook: 150 petitions
Twitter: 100 petitions
TCS – 6000-8000 petitions others even more
Indian IT companies who apply for H1 just for the sake of getting one and
those could be used by them in future if they need, though they are not sure
whether they will use it all. Even if they use all of them, is it really
justified to have lottery without any filtering mechanism.
If 20% people gets rejected in lottery, 20% of the startups will suffer,
many will die just due to nonsense process. 20% of the rejected google,
facebook, twitter people who affects society as a whole much more than
thousands of petitions filed by IT services and outsourcing companies.
Just for an example… One of my friends started a company as a founder with
just 6 other highly skilled people (I really mean it and not referring to
skilled labour whom TCS/Infy calls skilled). If he doesn’t get a visa, the
startup will die… Does this mean that the future of startups depends on a
lottery.
Another example, Other friend of mine graduated from Stanford and one of his
advisor was Peter Norvig, (I envy him for this, if you dont know him,
google him… Ahhhhh, its his home product, by the way)… He got a job as
researcher in Twitter Search …. They take only PhDs but he was selected
because he is a genious. He is also in the stupid lottery… Come on, he
invested 40k+ for his studies and then got a job which a TCS guy can only
think of.
Don’t want to speak about myself, but I am working in a company (don’t
want to take the name) for a new product launch, whose market value is
estimated half a billion dollar (25% of TCS’s profit), and we are only 18
people in the team. If anyone of us leaves, it will affect the launch badly.
I don’t blame only USCIS or Indian IT companies or consultants… I am
blaming both and also the fate which brought us here….
USA immigration SUCKS !!!!!!
Fuck (pardon my language) senate where the bills could not be passed without
signatures of both houses. What kind of system is this?
REPLY
San Ch April 6, 2013 at 5:41 pm
Rightly said and that’s the reason startsup have decreased in this year as
compared to previous years
http://venturebeat.com/2013/04/02/silicon-valley-north-canada-s
But think from US perspective, first they should allow immigrants and then
they should make this system better and better(whole H1B system and GC
system is broken too, takes 6-10 years to get GC on EB2, …Managers can get
in EB1C in 6 months while others falling in EB1A or EB1B should have Phd/
research/nobel prizej for the same ..Joke?)
I guess most people are not happy with immigrants anyways so its not really
a simple issue to address to
Government is sand witched between immigrants(legal(good for corporate but
not for govt) and illegal immigrants(vote bank)) and citizens(most of them
are not willing to work the same way, at least that’s the impression …or
may be dont want to work in IT) and corporates(who are always after $$ and
do whatever possible to get the work done through economical resource
whatever way it takes)
Do you have any solution to this problem?
CD April 6, 2013 at 10:51 pm
Hi Sir,
I am not trying to abuse and just trying to help you. I think there is
another visa which your friend can try for. That is O1 visa. God forbid but
in case he loses here in the ******* lottery he can get a O1 visa.
asd April 6, 2013 at 11:10 pm
You need to be a person with extraordinary ability such as being a nobel
prize winner. I’m sorry your friend may be a genius, but he hasn’t been
internationally recognized. He’d be rejected if he applied for an O visa.
asd April 6, 2013 at 11:28 pm
Don’t want to speak about myself, but I am working in a company (don’t
want to take the name) for a new product launch, whose market value is
estimated half a billion dollar (25% of TCS’s profit), and we are only 18
people in the team. If anyone of us leaves, it will affect the launch badly.
Don’t want to take the name of your company, but since you didn’t want to
speak about yourself, but spoke about yourself anyway, I’ll take the name
of your company too. You work for AOL and your product is Altomail where you
are a Machine Learning Engineer. I’m sorry to break it to you, but
employees at big firms are easily replaceable.
shekhar agrawal April 6, 2013 at 11:30 pm
People out here are sick. I explained a genuine case and compared the case
with normal and majority of other H1 applicants from Indian IT companies and
people started comparing him with nobel prize winners sarcastically.
Whatever.
shekhar agrawal April 6, 2013 at 11:34 pm
@asd
Dont try to act too smart…. Its Linkedin, at least change the words while
writing…. and dont just copy and paste, which is very normal with guys
working in Indian IT companies, so its not your fault, I must say….
And whatever, if you can replace any one in the team, come and show your
talent. Dont just blabber anything in the forum…
shekhar agrawal April 6, 2013 at 11:40 pm
@asd
And this is not only with you. A general mind set, if someone try to be
reasonable, people start pulling him down.. I just explained a case and did
not go personal with anyone in the forum… But people like YOU raise your
voice and try to shadow genuineness just by your loudness… If you want a
debate, come with facts… But you wont do it, because you have just got one
weapon – personal attack.
So fuck you and shut up…. I wanted a debate but dont want it with an
unreasonable person like you.
goiyale April 7, 2013 at 5:42 am
shekhar,
You consider yourself irreplaceable? you may be boy wonder working in social
media wonder but hopefully u do understand that there are bound to be
people who may not be as gifted as you/ your friend who still have
aspirations in life and families to feed.
Also, do you honestly think you are much more skilled/ gifted than all the
TCS guys? we all have a job and contribute towards it one way or the other.
I dont understand your notion of genuine petition as well. There is a system
in place and companies are using the system to file visas for their
employees.
Dont vent your frustration on the system by giving an irrational case study.
Your case is biased towards what you think is important.
btw – i dont work for an Indian IT firm/ consulting firm, have my
reservations towards this system and applied for h1 as well..
mark April 7, 2013 at 7:53 am
@Shekhar
Dude, I agree with every single word you wrote. Those guys say that people
are not replaceable. But they don’t even realize that in current situation
it takes like 6 month for Amazon, Google or Microsoft to fill in a position.
Then they have for another 6 month to wait for a person. There are not
enough good software engineers in US. The horde that is brought by
consulters is for sure not qualified enough. Otherwise, they would fill
those positions, but they don’t, since they are not smart enough
Saying that some people have families to feed and aspirations is foolish.
This is not how the life works. If we let in everyone who needs to feed
family or has aspirations in life, other people who are already in US will
not be able to feed their families, despite the fact they are smarter than
any of those new applicants.
I hope for the best for all of us, I hope that new immigration reform will
be passed soon leaving consulters without any chance.
asd April 7, 2013 at 12:51 pm
It’s funny how you assumed that I work in an Indian IT company. I’m not an
Indian citizen and I don’t work in IT. If you feel like you are
irreplaceable then more power to you. Employment here is at-will and if a
company wants to fire people to bring their expenses under control – they
will do that. Pretty much the same way that you can leave your current
position and go work elsewhere because they are offering a better deal.
shekhar agrawal April 7, 2013 at 1:06 pm
First of all, I did not started saying that I am irreplaceable. I know no
one is… Companies can always get a better resource. It was you who started
the concept of “irreplaceable”.
Check my blog carefully, I wrote “If anyone of us leaves, it will affect
the launch badly.” and then you wrote – “I’m sorry to break it to you,
but employees at big firms are easily replaceable.”
I may not be the best person for the team I am working for, but surely I m
more logical than you. So, better shut your mouth up.
Secondly, I don’t care whether you work for TCS or Facebook, or an Indian
citizen or a pakistani… I don’t give a shit….. I have only put forward my
personal opinion that preference should be given to those who did advanced
degree from an American University over to those who applied directly from
outside the country with a bachelor’s. And I have ample facts to prove my
point. If you want a meaningless debate, I can’t help it.
So, stop this and wait for the results (if at all you applied for H1)…………
I also won’t deny that I could be one of the unlucky ones who can get
rejected in the lottery, but then my company will incur much more loss than
TCS if one of his applicants gets rejected. And in long term, US will… I am
not taking all the credits. Because I am not talking only about me. I am
talking on behalf of all those people who did advanced degree and could do
much better than other H1 applicants….
Just to support it, here is one of the facts that was put up by Forbes.
From 1995 – 2005, 40% of silicon valley start ups had at least one of the
founders those were immigrants and did advanced degree here. In 2005 alone,
they did 52 billion dollars sales and created 400k new jobs in the country.
I never said that H1 should banned for everyone else, I just said people who
can do much better to the country in future should be given preference.
Even if now you don’t agree, I cant help it, sorry.
UzAhm April 7, 2013 at 2:53 pm
Totally agree.. this is a flaw in the system. The h1b visa was meant for “
American Companies” to hire students/foreign workers where a local worker
is not available. Now the biggest consumer of the visas are consultancies
like TCS, that are a foreign company that are providing cheaper labour to
displace americans from the industry.so many american in IT are out of jobs
and I can see why they pine over this issue. I for one think, that either
call the H1b visa for what it is: foreign companies sending foreign
qualified persons and let the US graduates be free of the quota.
Or even better (but not practical) make the rules strict for H1b visa
forcing employees to pay them equal wages.
asd April 7, 2013 at 8:14 pm
Shekhar your points are all valid. There is no real way to be fair when you
have so many petitions and by having a lottery everyone has an equal chance.
Life isn’t always fair and you have to live with that. I did my undergrad
in the US and am working on OPT just to make sure that you don’t feel that
I am biased towards IT consulting companies.
shekhar agrawal April 7, 2013 at 8:45 pm
I agree life isn’t fair.
But if you had followed last election, Obama also had this as one of his
campaigning item that we must give jobs to people who did their degrees here
and retain the talent in our own country.
This is what I am talking about.
Just think if the lottery system is continued for continuous 3 or more years
, what will happen?
– There will be a sudden drop in the # of students coming here for higher
education.
– Sudden drop in the # of patents USA files every year…. In 2011, USA
filed 503428 patents, what do you think who files these patents?
American graduates ? OR TCS/Infy H1s ?
Man, you did UG from here, you already know how many americans do masters
degree in engineering. Very few… no?
As an effect of the above two, less # of startups and less talents for
innovative companies……
Would like to quote one more example. A very good friend of mine graduated
from MIT Sloan school of management this year… He took a loan of 175k from
the school for his studies…. And got placed in a very good firm (obviously)
with a package of almost equivalent to his loan amount…. For him, OPT is
for one year, so this is his only chance to get H1, and he is also stuck
with the sucking lottery system… Repayment of loan amount 175k in India is
nearly impossible.
What do you think if he has to go back, how many years will it take for our
juniors to get out of this situation before they apply for ivy leagues and
takes gruesome loans?
If due to lottery system, say 20% of the people gets rejected for 3
continuous years i.e. say 24,000 people. Then it’s just not the number 24,
000 that USA will loose for 3 years but also lacs of students in subsequent
years.
Just think man, USA will loose so many talented managers, product people,
engineers, researchers, and the volume of that is not restricted to the
number of people who got rejected this year or next year….
Talking only about Engineering, education and Research is the foundation of
this country and most of the research is done by Indians and Chinese (in the
last 20 years at least). And they make rules which creates negative
emotions on students and future students.
These immigration rules were made decades ago when they defined the term “
skilled labour”. That time due to global economy and social conditions, few
people came but many of them contributed towards research organizations
like NASA (40%+ NASA employee are Indians who did advanced degree in USA).
Now since employers have misused american policies, the term “skilled
labour” has been mutilated.
I just want to say that they seriously need to reform the policies.
I am not a law maker, neither I know much about it…. But one of the
solutions could be to give H1 to all who did degree here and then lottery
for all others. Other solution could be to increase the cap.
Whatever it is, but it needs some major reform…. Looking into the number of
startups people starting very year, looking into the globalization, looking
into the awareness and ease for foreigners coming here and looking on the
number of jobs created in USA.
asd April 7, 2013 at 10:09 pm
Easiest thing to do would be to increase the cap. This will eventually
happen, but it will take a few years because politicians here are no
different than politicians elsewhere. |
