l***r
发帖数: 473 | 1 我们新来的邻居，说了半小时我就买了，我以为是省收入税，还问她来着，她说是的。
。晕。。。。
是transamerica
一年保费650多刀，每月最少247premium，她给我看他家两个账户，都是08年买的现在
有25%的收益了，保额50万，我觉得还好呀，loan的话是0.79%，我也看了置顶的和精华
的关于VUL的，至少他们家赚钱的啊，还放了一共10万在里面，她老公还又追加了
premium，但是为啥这么不好呢。。。。如果我就照着agent家的账户做呢。。。
大家觉得我要付个surrender抽身不，太受打击了。。。呜呜 |
s********n
发帖数: 1962 | 2 你没问问她 08 年以前的收益？如果从 06 年算起到现在，只怕她的收益还是负的。
这些 sales 总是把最好的数据给你看，不告诉你风险。她最近的收益好不是她的 VUL
好，而是股票市场这两年涨的比较疯。如果从 08 年算起，受益在 30% 一样的 fund
遍地都是，她那根本不算高的。记住，不谈风险的收益是没有意义的。
【在 l***r 的大作中提到】
: 我们新来的邻居，说了半小时我就买了，我以为是省收入税，还问她来着，她说是的。
: 。晕。。。。
: 是transamerica
: 一年保费650多刀，每月最少247premium，她给我看他家两个账户，都是08年买的现在
: 有25%的收益了，保额50万，我觉得还好呀，loan的话是0.79%，我也看了置顶的和精华
: 的关于VUL的，至少他们家赚钱的啊，还放了一共10万在里面，她老公还又追加了
: premium，但是为啥这么不好呢。。。。如果我就照着agent家的账户做呢。。。
: 大家觉得我要付个surrender抽身不，太受打击了。。。呜呜
|
l***r
发帖数: 473 | 3 那我现在更不能入了，股价那么高。。。这个我估计要罚一大笔钱才给退了 |
a**n
发帖数: 2431 | 4 sometimes we made mistakes in investment
I think everyone makes mistakes
that's why there is a word "cut loss"
【在 l***r 的大作中提到】
: 那我现在更不能入了，股价那么高。。。这个我估计要罚一大笔钱才给退了
|
h********8
发帖数: 7355 | |
l***r
发帖数: 473 | 6 有10天检查policy的时间，上面写着返还policy就可以void any fee，即便这样还是要
和agent费一番口舌了 |
s********n
发帖数: 1962 | 7 赶快去退了吧。以后买什么投资产品一定要多做做 research 再出手，用的可都是自己
多年的辛苦钱啊。
【在 l***r 的大作中提到】
: 有10天检查policy的时间，上面写着返还policy就可以void any fee，即便这样还是要
: 和agent费一番口舌了
|
s********n
发帖数: 1962 | 8 别乱出主意了。
只付 premium 就等于你要交一辈子的 very over-charged life insurance.
【在 h********8 的大作中提到】
: 退出损失很大，可以只付premium。
|
l***r
发帖数: 473 | 9 恩。。。。这个东西理念是好的，可惜实际兑现有很大的风险，trick还是隐藏着的，
所以才很少有普通老百姓买到死。。。哎，富人无所谓了 |
r*******e
发帖数: 971 | 10 你这个保费不是到一定年头就不交的么？
【在 l***r 的大作中提到】
: 恩。。。。这个东西理念是好的，可惜实际兑现有很大的风险，trick还是隐藏着的，
: 所以才很少有普通老百姓买到死。。。哎，富人无所谓了
|
|
|
l***r
发帖数: 473 | 11 没发现那么好的事情，反正看70岁时候的保费块上万了一个月，很惊恐。。。
【在 r*******e 的大作中提到】
: 你这个保费不是到一定年头就不交的么？
|
l********2
发帖数: 72 | 12 我07年最高时买的，也有20%收益了。股市现在才刚起步，至少还有3年好光景。 买VUL
就要最大化premium, 不是tax free, but tax deferred still not bad deal. 50万以
上的VUL费用最少，所以最合算。 |
s********n
发帖数: 1962 | 13 你说3年好光景就好光景？你要是有本事 time the market，50W 还不就是个芝麻小数？
何况 VUL 是一个 life-time commitment，越往后越鸡肋。三年好光景有个什么用?
而且，你 20% 的收益能证明 VUL 好吗？VUL 只不过是 hold 你 investment 的一个
vehicle，你投资表现得好坏跟 VUL 本身好不好没有任何联系。我从 07 年到现在
401k
的回报率是 35%，是否就证明 401k >> VUL?
VUL
【在 l********2 的大作中提到】
: 我07年最高时买的，也有20%收益了。股市现在才刚起步，至少还有3年好光景。 买VUL
: 就要最大化premium, 不是tax free, but tax deferred still not bad deal. 50万以
: 上的VUL费用最少，所以最合算。
|
s***s
发帖数: 4329 | 14 顶一下这个
数？
【在 s********n 的大作中提到】
: 你说3年好光景就好光景？你要是有本事 time the market，50W 还不就是个芝麻小数？
: 何况 VUL 是一个 life-time commitment，越往后越鸡肋。三年好光景有个什么用?
: 而且，你 20% 的收益能证明 VUL 好吗？VUL 只不过是 hold 你 investment 的一个
: vehicle，你投资表现得好坏跟 VUL 本身好不好没有任何联系。我从 07 年到现在
: 401k
: 的回报率是 35%，是否就证明 401k >> VUL?
:
: VUL
|
l***r
发帖数: 473 | 15 的确是，我就是害怕09纳斯达克那样的，你说要多少年才能回到原来的，往后看，我要
困在里面一直到死也有个5,60年，50万通货膨胀一下现在也就几万啊。。。。何况现在
是用钱的时候，谁管得了死了以后的cash value啊，这辈子过的坑坑洼洼的，孩子管你
要钱的时候你没有，他们都独立了还差你这通货膨胀过的50,100万么。。。 |
h****h
发帖数: 1168 | 16 cash is king then? haha
【在 l***r 的大作中提到】
: 的确是，我就是害怕09纳斯达克那样的，你说要多少年才能回到原来的，往后看，我要
: 困在里面一直到死也有个5,60年，50万通货膨胀一下现在也就几万啊。。。。何况现在
: 是用钱的时候，谁管得了死了以后的cash value啊，这辈子过的坑坑洼洼的，孩子管你
: 要钱的时候你没有，他们都独立了还差你这通货膨胀过的50,100万么。。。
|
g*****g
发帖数: 34805 | 17 说得没错，拿个30年，哪怕20年的回报率跟大盘比一比还是有
意义的。
数？
【在 s********n 的大作中提到】
: 你说3年好光景就好光景？你要是有本事 time the market，50W 还不就是个芝麻小数？
: 何况 VUL 是一个 life-time commitment，越往后越鸡肋。三年好光景有个什么用?
: 而且，你 20% 的收益能证明 VUL 好吗？VUL 只不过是 hold 你 investment 的一个
: vehicle，你投资表现得好坏跟 VUL 本身好不好没有任何联系。我从 07 年到现在
: 401k
: 的回报率是 35%，是否就证明 401k >> VUL?
:
: VUL
|
g*****g
发帖数: 34805 | 18 No, but at least MF/stock can be cashed out any time
without penalty.
【在 h****h 的大作中提到】
: cash is king then? haha
|
h********8
发帖数: 7355 | 19 买life insurance是主要劳动力对家人的承诺与承担，别当成是投资。这个＂投资＂的
management fee太高。 |
l***r
发帖数: 473 | 20 exactly。。。来自市场的风险+买这个产品本身的风险让我最后放弃了，因为我不能保
证我的cash value一直增加，如果不是，我60岁的时候会很惨很惨。。。
【在 h********8 的大作中提到】
: 买life insurance是主要劳动力对家人的承诺与承担，别当成是投资。这个＂投资＂的
: management fee太高。
|
|
|
l********2
发帖数: 72 | 21 我没说VUL收益一定好，只是说回报并不差。从省税的角度看，401k不宜投太多，每年
5000-6000块差不多了。在这个范围内401k>VUL, roth IRA要投满，有多的才VUL,VUL是
没有其他更好省税账户后的选择。
数？
【在 s********n 的大作中提到】
: 你说3年好光景就好光景？你要是有本事 time the market，50W 还不就是个芝麻小数？
: 何况 VUL 是一个 life-time commitment，越往后越鸡肋。三年好光景有个什么用?
: 而且，你 20% 的收益能证明 VUL 好吗？VUL 只不过是 hold 你 investment 的一个
: vehicle，你投资表现得好坏跟 VUL 本身好不好没有任何联系。我从 07 年到现在
: 401k
: 的回报率是 35%，是否就证明 401k >> VUL?
:
: VUL
|
l********2
发帖数: 72 | 22 tax is the penalty, you can take a loan from VUL for free
【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: No, but at least MF/stock can be cashed out any time
: without penalty.
|
l***r
发帖数: 473 | 23 我的是0.75%，其实还好
【在 l********2 的大作中提到】
: tax is the penalty, you can take a loan from VUL for free
|
s********n
发帖数: 1962 | 24 You are missing the point. How much return you get from VUL or 401k
is irrelevant. The return before management costs completely depends
on your own investment skills and has nothing to do with which
investment vehicle you choose.
The problem is the management cost -- VUL is usually ridiculously
high. Insurance agencies always try to avoid talking about how much
fee a VUL will charge and how much commission they will get from
a VUL policy. Instead, they talk about tax saving. VUL indeed has
tax benefits. However, the benefit can hardly cover its cost.
Buying a VUL is sort of like: In stead of paying Uncle Sam, you
give that proportion to the person who sold VUL to you. Even worse,
if you lose money in your account, Uncle Sam will stop charging
you, but in VUL, when you lose money in your account, you'll be
obligated to pay more!!
【在 l********2 的大作中提到】
: 我没说VUL收益一定好，只是说回报并不差。从省税的角度看，401k不宜投太多，每年
: 5000-6000块差不多了。在这个范围内401k>VUL, roth IRA要投满，有多的才VUL,VUL是
: 没有其他更好省税账户后的选择。
:
: 数？
|
l******n
发帖数: 641 | 25 oh, this is easy to understand.
thx.
【在 s********n 的大作中提到】
: You are missing the point. How much return you get from VUL or 401k
: is irrelevant. The return before management costs completely depends
: on your own investment skills and has nothing to do with which
: investment vehicle you choose.
: The problem is the management cost -- VUL is usually ridiculously
: high. Insurance agencies always try to avoid talking about how much
: fee a VUL will charge and how much commission they will get from
: a VUL policy. Instead, they talk about tax saving. VUL indeed has
: tax benefits. However, the benefit can hardly cover its cost.
: Buying a VUL is sort of like: In stead of paying Uncle Sam, you
|
f*****b
发帖数: 1649 | 26 赞
数？
【在 s********n 的大作中提到】
: 你说3年好光景就好光景？你要是有本事 time the market，50W 还不就是个芝麻小数？
: 何况 VUL 是一个 life-time commitment，越往后越鸡肋。三年好光景有个什么用?
: 而且，你 20% 的收益能证明 VUL 好吗？VUL 只不过是 hold 你 investment 的一个
: vehicle，你投资表现得好坏跟 VUL 本身好不好没有任何联系。我从 07 年到现在
: 401k
: 的回报率是 35%，是否就证明 401k >> VUL?
:
: VUL
|
s****p
发帖数: 1087 | 27 还有一个关键的参数要问：他们投资的手续费和管理费。
VUL的通常都比较高。
而在管理费扣掉之前的rate of return，我认为就算他们不比别人低，也不会比别人高。
比如我们买mutual fund，我看两个参数：管理费，和近十年来的业绩。
好像卖VUL的agent，一般不给你介绍管理费。
【在 l***r 的大作中提到】
: 我们新来的邻居，说了半小时我就买了，我以为是省收入税，还问她来着，她说是的。
: 。晕。。。。
: 是transamerica
: 一年保费650多刀，每月最少247premium，她给我看他家两个账户，都是08年买的现在
: 有25%的收益了，保额50万，我觉得还好呀，loan的话是0.79%，我也看了置顶的和精华
: 的关于VUL的，至少他们家赚钱的啊，还放了一共10万在里面，她老公还又追加了
: premium，但是为啥这么不好呢。。。。如果我就照着agent家的账户做呢。。。
: 大家觉得我要付个surrender抽身不，太受打击了。。。呜呜
|
l********2
发帖数: 72 | 28 yes, the point is, in the long term, stocks always go up, so you shouldn't
make a loss in the long term, and the money you saved from Uncle Sam more
than cover the cost. VUL at most take 3%, uncle sam at least 15%
【在 s********n 的大作中提到】
: You are missing the point. How much return you get from VUL or 401k
: is irrelevant. The return before management costs completely depends
: on your own investment skills and has nothing to do with which
: investment vehicle you choose.
: The problem is the management cost -- VUL is usually ridiculously
: high. Insurance agencies always try to avoid talking about how much
: fee a VUL will charge and how much commission they will get from
: a VUL policy. Instead, they talk about tax saving. VUL indeed has
: tax benefits. However, the benefit can hardly cover its cost.
: Buying a VUL is sort of like: In stead of paying Uncle Sam, you
|
s********n
发帖数: 1962 | 29 You go ask an insurance agent how much commission they can
get from selling a VUL policy. Then you'll know how much
they have to over charge you.
I can assure you this: 3% is not even enough to cover the
commissions. And then add VUL account management fee on that.
And add the front/back load of their mutual funds on that.
And add the high management fee of their mutual funds on that.
And when you are getting older and older, add more and more
expensive life insurance premium on that.
【在 l********2 的大作中提到】
: yes, the point is, in the long term, stocks always go up, so you shouldn't
: make a loss in the long term, and the money you saved from Uncle Sam more
: than cover the cost. VUL at most take 3%, uncle sam at least 15%
|
l******n
发帖数: 641 | 30 but i think 3% is about the return of bonds,
so might be like 1/3 of your money's total return already.
【在 l********2 的大作中提到】
: yes, the point is, in the long term, stocks always go up, so you shouldn't
: make a loss in the long term, and the money you saved from Uncle Sam more
: than cover the cost. VUL at most take 3%, uncle sam at least 15%
|
|
|
l********2
发帖数: 72 | 31 not every VUL the same, mine have no loads, only fund management fees and
life insurance cost (about 780 this year for 500k), I made sure of this
before I buy. If 3% is 1/3 of my return, that gives more reason to avoid
uncle sam's more than 15% cut in my profit.
【在 l******n 的大作中提到】
: but i think 3% is about the return of bonds,
: so might be like 1/3 of your money's total return already.
|
h*x
发帖数: 207 | 32 1/3=33.3% >> 15%?
【在 l********2 的大作中提到】
: not every VUL the same, mine have no loads, only fund management fees and
: life insurance cost (about 780 this year for 500k), I made sure of this
: before I buy. If 3% is 1/3 of my return, that gives more reason to avoid
: uncle sam's more than 15% cut in my profit.
|
s********n
发帖数: 1962 | 33 hehe, good catch.
【在 h*x 的大作中提到】
: 1/3=33.3% >> 15%?
|
h*****a
发帖数: 131 | 34 还有一个风险是保险公司胡乱加价的风险。不能退出的合同也就意味着如果保险公司提
价，你没有用脚投票的权力。。。在这样的情况下，不提价的公司就是傻子。
【在 l***r 的大作中提到】
: exactly。。。来自市场的风险+买这个产品本身的风险让我最后放弃了，因为我不能保
: 证我的cash value一直增加，如果不是，我60岁的时候会很惨很惨。。。
|
j********1
发帖数: 628 | 35 3% of total assets under management vs. 15% tax on profit/dividend, how much annual return do you think you need to have to justify paying the 3% fee?
And you pay the 3% every year, how much are you going to lose over 30 years compare to a low cost fund with a fee of say 0.5% assuming same annual returns? Go figure.
【在 l********2 的大作中提到】
: not every VUL the same, mine have no loads, only fund management fees and
: life insurance cost (about 780 this year for 500k), I made sure of this
: before I buy. If 3% is 1/3 of my return, that gives more reason to avoid
: uncle sam's more than 15% cut in my profit.
|
s******t
发帖数: 42 | 36 VUL一开始的premium要尽量maxout，不然的话cash value涨不起来就失去VUL的意义了
，cost of insurance是基于coverage-cash value的。
我的VUL是WRL的FEB-II，50万coverage，没有premiun front load，每年的fee有
1. cost of insurance，现在大约$35/month
2. monthly policy charge $10/month till 111-yr old
3. administration fee， $50/month for first 10 years,
4. insurance company management fee：0.75% annual rate of cash value for
first 10 years, 0.6% for 11-15 years, 0.3% for 16-20 years, 0 for 21+ years
5. fund management fee: 我选的几个fund除了一个emerging market是1.34%外，其他
都在0.8-0.9%之间。
各种fee还是很可观的，特别是前十年，如果真的每年只投四五千的话，前几年多半就
是负增长。
【在 s********n 的大作中提到】
: You go ask an insurance agent how much commission they can
: get from selling a VUL policy. Then you'll know how much
: they have to over charge you.
: I can assure you this: 3% is not even enough to cover the
: commissions. And then add VUL account management fee on that.
: And add the front/back load of their mutual funds on that.
: And add the high management fee of their mutual funds on that.
: And when you are getting older and older, add more and more
: expensive life insurance premium on that.
|
l******n
发帖数: 641 | 37 1+2+3: 1k/year should be enough for 30y term cost.
years
【在 s******t 的大作中提到】
: VUL一开始的premium要尽量maxout，不然的话cash value涨不起来就失去VUL的意义了
: ，cost of insurance是基于coverage-cash value的。
: 我的VUL是WRL的FEB-II，50万coverage，没有premiun front load，每年的fee有
: 1. cost of insurance，现在大约$35/month
: 2. monthly policy charge $10/month till 111-yr old
: 3. administration fee， $50/month for first 10 years,
: 4. insurance company management fee：0.75% annual rate of cash value for
: first 10 years, 0.6% for 11-15 years, 0.3% for 16-20 years, 0 for 21+ years
: 5. fund management fee: 我选的几个fund除了一个emerging market是1.34%外，其他
: 都在0.8-0.9%之间。
|
s********n
发帖数: 1962 | 38 "If the cash value in a contract exceeds the specified
percentage of death benefit, the policy no longer qualifies
as life insurance at all and all investment earnings become
immediately taxable in the year the specified percentage is
exceeded. In order to avoid this, contracts define the death
benefit to be the higher of the original death benefit or the
amount needed to meet IRS guidelines. The maximum cash value
is determined to be a certain percentage of the death benefit.
The percentage ranges from 30% or so for young insured persons,
declining to 0% for those reaching age 100."
Now correct me if I am wrong. The above statement means, say
you have a dead benefit of 1M, you can build max cash value
300K in your VUL, and you'll have to pay insurance premium
for the rest of 700K dead benefit. This may not be a problem
when you are young, but when you get to 60 years old, imagine
how much they will charge you for a 700K life insurance...
years
【在 s******t 的大作中提到】
: VUL一开始的premium要尽量maxout，不然的话cash value涨不起来就失去VUL的意义了
: ，cost of insurance是基于coverage-cash value的。
: 我的VUL是WRL的FEB-II，50万coverage，没有premiun front load，每年的fee有
: 1. cost of insurance，现在大约$35/month
: 2. monthly policy charge $10/month till 111-yr old
: 3. administration fee， $50/month for first 10 years,
: 4. insurance company management fee：0.75% annual rate of cash value for
: first 10 years, 0.6% for 11-15 years, 0.3% for 16-20 years, 0 for 21+ years
: 5. fund management fee: 我选的几个fund除了一个emerging market是1.34%外，其他
: 都在0.8-0.9%之间。
|
l***r
发帖数: 473 | 39 这个貌似没70%那么高，我那个500k的到65岁好像变成了5万保险，算下来一年1500保费
，我看了后面的数据，70岁往后4200一年的保费。不过这些全部是以cash value一直增
长为基础的。
【在 s********n 的大作中提到】
: "If the cash value in a contract exceeds the specified
: percentage of death benefit, the policy no longer qualifies
: as life insurance at all and all investment earnings become
: immediately taxable in the year the specified percentage is
: exceeded. In order to avoid this, contracts define the death
: benefit to be the higher of the original death benefit or the
: amount needed to meet IRS guidelines. The maximum cash value
: is determined to be a certain percentage of the death benefit.
: The percentage ranges from 30% or so for young insured persons,
: declining to 0% for those reaching age 100."
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l********2
发帖数: 72 | 40 I mean if 3% per year is 1/3 my profit, wouldn't 15% per year amount to more
than 1/3 my profit? I don't think I'll hold an investment until I retire or
die. besides, VUL only add 0.25% to 0.5% on top of management fee for the fund outside VUL
【在 h*x 的大作中提到】
: 1/3=33.3% >> 15%?
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l********2
发帖数: 72 | 41 the insurance percentage goes down as u age, so at 60 u can have 700k cash
and 300k insurance, just example, not real number
【在 s********n 的大作中提到】
: "If the cash value in a contract exceeds the specified
: percentage of death benefit, the policy no longer qualifies
: as life insurance at all and all investment earnings become
: immediately taxable in the year the specified percentage is
: exceeded. In order to avoid this, contracts define the death
: benefit to be the higher of the original death benefit or the
: amount needed to meet IRS guidelines. The maximum cash value
: is determined to be a certain percentage of the death benefit.
: The percentage ranges from 30% or so for young insured persons,
: declining to 0% for those reaching age 100."
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s******t
发帖数: 42 | 42 百分比是随着年龄增长而增长的，那个叫corridor，你的保额必须大于或等于cash
value乘上corridor factor，41岁及以下是2.5，51岁是1.85， 61岁是1.3，也就是说
到61岁时你的cash value可以到保额的77%，如果超过了，保额就会自动增加到cash
value×factor
【在 s********n 的大作中提到】
: "If the cash value in a contract exceeds the specified
: percentage of death benefit, the policy no longer qualifies
: as life insurance at all and all investment earnings become
: immediately taxable in the year the specified percentage is
: exceeded. In order to avoid this, contracts define the death
: benefit to be the higher of the original death benefit or the
: amount needed to meet IRS guidelines. The maximum cash value
: is determined to be a certain percentage of the death benefit.
: The percentage ranges from 30% or so for young insured persons,
: declining to 0% for those reaching age 100."
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