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Investment版 - 应该用401K中的after tax contribution吗?
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相关话题的讨论汇总
话题: tax话题: ira话题: 401k话题: atc
进入Investment版参与讨论
1 (共1页)
t*m
发帖数: 4414
1
我在单位存401K, conventional 401K (not roth 401K)
放满16500.
每年December,16500满了,多contribution的钱就变成"after tax contribution"
(1)所以每年都有几百块的after-tax contribution (ATC)
(2) ATC也享受公司的match
(3)放ATC的钱,应经被扣了federal和state 税
(4) ATC的钱也是tax defer growth, like a traditional IRA
(5) ATC也可以买401K里面的所有funds (选择还不错)
(6) ATC 象个traditional IRA, 59.5岁可以取,获利要交税
(7) 提前取ATC要罚获利部分的10%
(8)单位规定401K plan每年放钱要小于45000 (before tax contribution + ATC)
我们每年放满traditional IRA
所有投资和消费和供房之后,目前我家每个月结余大约4~5K.但是有330K mortgage.
我应该多放ATC吗? 谢谢
m****u
发帖数: 229
2
I hate to be taxed twice.
You have not said that you have a Trad/Roth IRA, so at this point, I would
assume that you dont have one.
I will not make any after tax contribution unless the company's match will
cover all the tax that I have paid. Put money into IRA seems to be a smarter
move.
S**C
发帖数: 2964
3
I do not think ATC is a good deal. The lack of flexibility and to pay tax
twice are show stopper for me.
If you have kids, then ESA and 529 could be your option. I think to have
healthy chunk of taxable account is good thing, it serves as sort of "
emergency" fund. In addition, you did not say ROTH IRA, so I assume you are
in the top 2 tax bracket, some short term muni probably is good for your
emergency fund.

【在 t*m 的大作中提到】
: 我在单位存401K, conventional 401K (not roth 401K)
: 放满16500.
: 每年December,16500满了,多contribution的钱就变成"after tax contribution"
: (1)所以每年都有几百块的after-tax contribution (ATC)
: (2) ATC也享受公司的match
: (3)放ATC的钱,应经被扣了federal和state 税
: (4) ATC的钱也是tax defer growth, like a traditional IRA
: (5) ATC也可以买401K里面的所有funds (选择还不错)
: (6) ATC 象个traditional IRA, 59.5岁可以取,获利要交税
: (7) 提前取ATC要罚获利部分的10%

l*********e
发帖数: 7492
4
你们公司太爽了。match这么多

【在 t*m 的大作中提到】
: 我在单位存401K, conventional 401K (not roth 401K)
: 放满16500.
: 每年December,16500满了,多contribution的钱就变成"after tax contribution"
: (1)所以每年都有几百块的after-tax contribution (ATC)
: (2) ATC也享受公司的match
: (3)放ATC的钱,应经被扣了federal和state 税
: (4) ATC的钱也是tax defer growth, like a traditional IRA
: (5) ATC也可以买401K里面的所有funds (选择还不错)
: (6) ATC 象个traditional IRA, 59.5岁可以取,获利要交税
: (7) 提前取ATC要罚获利部分的10%

n******n
发帖数: 12088
5
i doubt the double taxation.
i guess only the capital gain is taxed.
update: my guess verified.
http://www.money-zine.com/Financial-Planning/Retirement/Comparing-401k-Contributions/

are

【在 S**C 的大作中提到】
: I do not think ATC is a good deal. The lack of flexibility and to pay tax
: twice are show stopper for me.
: If you have kids, then ESA and 529 could be your option. I think to have
: healthy chunk of taxable account is good thing, it serves as sort of "
: emergency" fund. In addition, you did not say ROTH IRA, so I assume you are
: in the top 2 tax bracket, some short term muni probably is good for your
: emergency fund.

S**C
发帖数: 2964
6
What I mean is it is like non-deductible IRA, you pay your after-tax dollar,
then your gains are taxed again as ordinary income. For me it is a raw deal.

【在 n******n 的大作中提到】
: i doubt the double taxation.
: i guess only the capital gain is taxed.
: update: my guess verified.
: http://www.money-zine.com/Financial-Planning/Retirement/Comparing-401k-Contributions/
:
: are

t*m
发帖数: 4414
7
what part of the money been taxed twice?

smarter

【在 m****u 的大作中提到】
: I hate to be taxed twice.
: You have not said that you have a Trad/Roth IRA, so at this point, I would
: assume that you dont have one.
: I will not make any after tax contribution unless the company's match will
: cover all the tax that I have paid. Put money into IRA seems to be a smarter
: move.

t*m
发帖数: 4414
8
yes. only the capital return part will pay text after 59.5 years old

tax

【在 n******n 的大作中提到】
: i doubt the double taxation.
: i guess only the capital gain is taxed.
: update: my guess verified.
: http://www.money-zine.com/Financial-Planning/Retirement/Comparing-401k-Contributions/
:
: are

t*m
发帖数: 4414
9
yes. it's a non-deductible IRA. (we both put 5k every year into traditional
IRA, and it's non-dedutible)
So the question is, should I put more money into this non-deductible
traditional IRA (beyond the 5K/year)
Thanks!

dollar,
deal.

【在 S**C 的大作中提到】
: What I mean is it is like non-deductible IRA, you pay your after-tax dollar,
: then your gains are taxed again as ordinary income. For me it is a raw deal.

s****i
发帖数: 2993
10
if you get match, of course.
if you don't get match, you should invest in Roth first. Roth you don't pay
any tax after you retire.
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401K和ROTH IRA的分配?Vanguard or Fidelity for Roth IRA
进入Investment版参与讨论
t*m
发帖数: 4414
11
(1) 我们每年放满traditional IRA (non-deductible), 因为我们放不了roth ira
(2) 这两年也没有放roth 401K. 因为我们在33% Bracket, 感觉税有点儿高。所以都放
的是before-tax 401K.
您认为我们应该放roth 401K吗?thanks!

pay

【在 s****i 的大作中提到】
: if you get match, of course.
: if you don't get match, you should invest in Roth first. Roth you don't pay
: any tax after you retire.

S**C
发帖数: 2964
12
1) ROTH convert your non-deductible IRA if you haven't done so, you have the
chance this year.
2) If you are not in a high state/local tax region, ROTH 401k is a
reasonably good option for you, but if you live in a high tax state/city,
then I think bulk of it in traditional 401(k) may be better, since you can
move to, say, TX or FL after your retirement.

【在 t*m 的大作中提到】
: (1) 我们每年放满traditional IRA (non-deductible), 因为我们放不了roth ira
: (2) 这两年也没有放roth 401K. 因为我们在33% Bracket, 感觉税有点儿高。所以都放
: 的是before-tax 401K.
: 您认为我们应该放roth 401K吗?thanks!
:
: pay

t*m
发帖数: 4414
13
Thanks.
(1) we converted all our non-deductible traditional ira to roth this year.
(2) our state/local tax is high. too bad
my question still is: whether I should put more money into 401K as after-tax
contribution? Given I already put $16500 into 401 as before-tax
contribution.
I feel the pro is the tax-deferred growth and the cons is the poor
accessiblity
What do you think?

the
都放

【在 S**C 的大作中提到】
: 1) ROTH convert your non-deductible IRA if you haven't done so, you have the
: chance this year.
: 2) If you are not in a high state/local tax region, ROTH 401k is a
: reasonably good option for you, but if you live in a high tax state/city,
: then I think bulk of it in traditional 401(k) may be better, since you can
: move to, say, TX or FL after your retirement.

m****u
发帖数: 229
14
tim,
I am sorry, I used the wrong word, I shouldn't say "taxed twiced",
What i meant was what SOFC explained.
How bad in fee is ur company's 401K?
If you got with index funds, do they have super high expense ratios?
Compare with Vanguard's, say S&P 500 alike index fund, would the difference
in
the expense ratios over the 30 or 40 years of time make a huge gap?
I think the tax is the thing that kills you.
t*m
发帖数: 4414
15
I see. you were talking about the fees.
(1) our 401K offer "SSgA Flagship 500 Index Fund" at expense ratio of 0.02%
(2) there are also target funds (e.g. 2040), and all carry expense ratio of
0.28%
(3) our "SSgA Russell 2000 Index Fund" carries expense ratio of 0.06%
(4) "SSgA MSCI EAFE Index Fund", 0.11% expense ratio (International index
fund)
(5) PTTRX, PIMCO Total Return, 0.47% expense ratio
it seems the expense is super low, I don't how how they did it.
(I am in a US firm with 10w employees)

difference

【在 m****u 的大作中提到】
: tim,
: I am sorry, I used the wrong word, I shouldn't say "taxed twiced",
: What i meant was what SOFC explained.
: How bad in fee is ur company's 401K?
: If you got with index funds, do they have super high expense ratios?
: Compare with Vanguard's, say S&P 500 alike index fund, would the difference
: in
: the expense ratios over the 30 or 40 years of time make a huge gap?
: I think the tax is the thing that kills you.

t***s
发帖数: 4666
16
i think you're just BSO'ing. LOL.

of

【在 t*m 的大作中提到】
: I see. you were talking about the fees.
: (1) our 401K offer "SSgA Flagship 500 Index Fund" at expense ratio of 0.02%
: (2) there are also target funds (e.g. 2040), and all carry expense ratio of
: 0.28%
: (3) our "SSgA Russell 2000 Index Fund" carries expense ratio of 0.06%
: (4) "SSgA MSCI EAFE Index Fund", 0.11% expense ratio (International index
: fund)
: (5) PTTRX, PIMCO Total Return, 0.47% expense ratio
: it seems the expense is super low, I don't how how they did it.
: (I am in a US firm with 10w employees)

j***a
发帖数: 832
17
还有个关键是,公司MATCH %多少。如果是100%match我会考虑,如果是25%,没有必要。

【在 t*m 的大作中提到】
: 我在单位存401K, conventional 401K (not roth 401K)
: 放满16500.
: 每年December,16500满了,多contribution的钱就变成"after tax contribution"
: (1)所以每年都有几百块的after-tax contribution (ATC)
: (2) ATC也享受公司的match
: (3)放ATC的钱,应经被扣了federal和state 税
: (4) ATC的钱也是tax defer growth, like a traditional IRA
: (5) ATC也可以买401K里面的所有funds (选择还不错)
: (6) ATC 象个traditional IRA, 59.5岁可以取,获利要交税
: (7) 提前取ATC要罚获利部分的10%

s********n
发帖数: 4535
18
不可能100%,那样他干脆把工资全投进去,相当于公司发双倍工资
楼主是不是在12月前已经投完$16500?最后一月继续投入,公司当然要match该match的
那部分。但实际上每年公司match的总额是固定的(工资*match比例)

要。

【在 j***a 的大作中提到】
: 还有个关键是,公司MATCH %多少。如果是100%match我会考虑,如果是25%,没有必要。
t*m
发帖数: 4414
19
您说的很对,就是这个情况。
16500放满以后,
after-tax contribution 的主要好处就是tax deferred growth, little else
如下是一个TAX-Deferred growth calculation.
Summary Fully-Taxable Tax-Deferred
Current investment balance $10,000 $10,000
Annual contributions $0 $0
Number of years to invest 20 20
Before-tax return 8% 8%
Marginal tax bracket 33% 33%
After-tax return 5.4% n/a
Future account value $28,413 $46,610
Future account value (after-tax) $28,413 $34,528

【在 s********n 的大作中提到】
: 不可能100%,那样他干脆把工资全投进去,相当于公司发双倍工资
: 楼主是不是在12月前已经投完$16500?最后一月继续投入,公司当然要match该match的
: 那部分。但实际上每年公司match的总额是固定的(工资*match比例)
:
: 要。

s********n
发帖数: 4535
20
那你这不就相当于放traditional IRA?
我很怀疑你放401k超过16500的那部分是after tax的,否则美国政府还搞什么
traditional IRA啊,都放一个账户算了。
你仔细查查,我对此不是很清楚,版上有了解的可以来说说。

【在 t*m 的大作中提到】
: 您说的很对,就是这个情况。
: 16500放满以后,
: after-tax contribution 的主要好处就是tax deferred growth, little else
: 如下是一个TAX-Deferred growth calculation.
: Summary Fully-Taxable Tax-Deferred
: Current investment balance $10,000 $10,000
: Annual contributions $0 $0
: Number of years to invest 20 20
: Before-tax return 8% 8%
: Marginal tax bracket 33% 33%

相关主题
夫妻税前大约12万, 需要把IRA 都放满吗,请问我这种情况有必要把退休金放满吗?
讨论下还该放Roth还是多放401k请教Roth IRA投资的具体问题
请问150k的闲钱如何投资?checking放多少钱合适?如何分配投资组合?包子
进入Investment版参与讨论
s********n
发帖数: 4535
21
我觉得你应该跟Roth IRA的情况进行比较(如果不超过5k/yr)

【在 t*m 的大作中提到】
: 您说的很对,就是这个情况。
: 16500放满以后,
: after-tax contribution 的主要好处就是tax deferred growth, little else
: 如下是一个TAX-Deferred growth calculation.
: Summary Fully-Taxable Tax-Deferred
: Current investment balance $10,000 $10,000
: Annual contributions $0 $0
: Number of years to invest 20 20
: Before-tax return 8% 8%
: Marginal tax bracket 33% 33%

t*m
发帖数: 4414
22
(1) 您说的对,after tax contribution就是个non-deductible traditional IRA
(2) 超过16500的当然是after tax, 要是before-tax就好了。

【在 s********n 的大作中提到】
: 那你这不就相当于放traditional IRA?
: 我很怀疑你放401k超过16500的那部分是after tax的,否则美国政府还搞什么
: traditional IRA啊,都放一个账户算了。
: 你仔细查查,我对此不是很清楚,版上有了解的可以来说说。

s********n
发帖数: 4535
23
关于2,超过16500限额那肯定就不要放401k了吧。
现在放的时候收了税,将来取的时候也会收税。这时应该放 Roth IRA啊

【在 t*m 的大作中提到】
: (1) 您说的对,after tax contribution就是个non-deductible traditional IRA
: (2) 超过16500的当然是after tax, 要是before-tax就好了。

t*m
发帖数: 4414
24
放不了Roth IRA
我每年放5K non-deductible traditional IRA

【在 s********n 的大作中提到】
: 关于2,超过16500限额那肯定就不要放401k了吧。
: 现在放的时候收了税,将来取的时候也会收税。这时应该放 Roth IRA啊

t*m
发帖数: 4414
25
I put 16500 into 401K as "before tax contribution" every year.
by the way, I can rollover the 401K "after tax contribution"
to IRA (without quiting the job)
in this case, I have more invest option; and opportunities to convert to
roth.
Taken together, should I put more many into "after-tax contribution 401K" on
top of $16500/year "before-tax contribution"?
Thanks!

the
都放

【在 S**C 的大作中提到】
: 1) ROTH convert your non-deductible IRA if you haven't done so, you have the
: chance this year.
: 2) If you are not in a high state/local tax region, ROTH 401k is a
: reasonably good option for you, but if you live in a high tax state/city,
: then I think bulk of it in traditional 401(k) may be better, since you can
: move to, say, TX or FL after your retirement.

S**C
发帖数: 2964
26
You do not pay 33% tax year over year on your gains if you do not sell to
incur ST capital gains, you do pay tax on MF distributions, but that is
typically small fraction of your total gains, especially if you choose low
turn-over funds. You could have 15%-20% tax depending on how the tax law
changes, but I would imagine it will be lower than ordinary income tax rate.

【在 t*m 的大作中提到】
: 您说的很对,就是这个情况。
: 16500放满以后,
: after-tax contribution 的主要好处就是tax deferred growth, little else
: 如下是一个TAX-Deferred growth calculation.
: Summary Fully-Taxable Tax-Deferred
: Current investment balance $10,000 $10,000
: Annual contributions $0 $0
: Number of years to invest 20 20
: Before-tax return 8% 8%
: Marginal tax bracket 33% 33%

t*m
发帖数: 4414
27
any other good feature is I can rollover the 401 "after-tax contribution" to
IRA every year (still under fidelity), without leaving my job.
then I can convert it to roth IRA when possible or transfer the rollover IRA
to other broker (e.g. schwab or vanguard)

rate.

【在 S**C 的大作中提到】
: You do not pay 33% tax year over year on your gains if you do not sell to
: incur ST capital gains, you do pay tax on MF distributions, but that is
: typically small fraction of your total gains, especially if you choose low
: turn-over funds. You could have 15%-20% tax depending on how the tax law
: changes, but I would imagine it will be lower than ordinary income tax rate.

1 (共1页)
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话题: tax话题: ira话题: 401k话题: atc