b******n
发帖数: 1269 | 1 I know BD is really popular so I hope I don't offend anybody, but as a "
manufacturer" now (LOL), I have learned a lot of details about the bike
business and would like to share with you.
Firstly, in terms of cost, I can get aluminum road bike frames as cheap as
US$15, or as expensive as over 600USD (which is 40 times more than the
former). I can go on for 3 days to describe the many differences between the
two, material, workmanship, testing, R&D, and many other things...
As most consumers would judge an unknown frame by its components, it's very
very easy to get a US$15 frame and build it up with Dura Ace. So they guy
can literally pass on the Dura Ace group to you at his cost but make a 2000%
profit on the frame (yes, that's 20 times).
Not saying there is anything wrong with it, but just stating a fact.
Frankly I am quite astonished by the profit margin these guys can achieve.
Same reason a girl with an Hermes bag would only date a X=代。Without the
bag, she is just a regular broad.
So if you got yourself a "Ultegra Level" bike for $1500, it would well be a
$450 group with a $15 frame. | p********y
发帖数: 5141 | 2 Does this only apply for Bikedirect or for all the big brands?
I assume you are talking about Bikedirect instead of BlackDiamond, right?
the
very
2000%
【在 b******n 的大作中提到】
: I know BD is really popular so I hope I don't offend anybody, but as a "
: manufacturer" now (LOL), I have learned a lot of details about the bike
: business and would like to share with you.
: Firstly, in terms of cost, I can get aluminum road bike frames as cheap as
: US$15, or as expensive as over 600USD (which is 40 times more than the
: former). I can go on for 3 days to describe the many differences between the
: two, material, workmanship, testing, R&D, and many other things...
: As most consumers would judge an unknown frame by its components, it's very
: very easy to get a US$15 frame and build it up with Dura Ace. So they guy
: can literally pass on the Dura Ace group to you at his cost but make a 2000%
| b******n
发帖数: 1269 | 3 I am only talking about bikedirect, although many companies do it to some
degree. | m****h
发帖数: 1672 | 4 BD上的fuji SL3，SL1
等还是靠谱的，碳架本身都不止800刀 | h*****a
发帖数: 1992 | 5 From a consumer's point of view, I guess the question now is how to tell a $
15 frame from a $600 one, so that I, as a consumer, can make educated
purchases, not only from BD, but also from other places.
Is it possible to tell the quality difference of two frames without riding
them?
the
very
2000%
【在 b******n 的大作中提到】
: I know BD is really popular so I hope I don't offend anybody, but as a "
: manufacturer" now (LOL), I have learned a lot of details about the bike
: business and would like to share with you.
: Firstly, in terms of cost, I can get aluminum road bike frames as cheap as
: US$15, or as expensive as over 600USD (which is 40 times more than the
: former). I can go on for 3 days to describe the many differences between the
: two, material, workmanship, testing, R&D, and many other things...
: As most consumers would judge an unknown frame by its components, it's very
: very easy to get a US$15 frame and build it up with Dura Ace. So they guy
: can literally pass on the Dura Ace group to you at his cost but make a 2000%
| c*******r
发帖数: 13580 | 6 well said!
the
very
2000%
【在 b******n 的大作中提到】
: I know BD is really popular so I hope I don't offend anybody, but as a "
: manufacturer" now (LOL), I have learned a lot of details about the bike
: business and would like to share with you.
: Firstly, in terms of cost, I can get aluminum road bike frames as cheap as
: US$15, or as expensive as over 600USD (which is 40 times more than the
: former). I can go on for 3 days to describe the many differences between the
: two, material, workmanship, testing, R&D, and many other things...
: As most consumers would judge an unknown frame by its components, it's very
: very easy to get a US$15 frame and build it up with Dura Ace. So they guy
: can literally pass on the Dura Ace group to you at his cost but make a 2000%
| b******n
发帖数: 1269 | 7 unfortunately it is indeed difficult to tell the difference to the untrained
eye. Plus human weaknesses would kick in and blur whatever one is able to
differentiate, with the devil strongly rooting for BD.
I will give you a very easy example, many of these cheap frames have fucked
up geometry. Either a super short head tube, or weird angles, etc. Handling
will be like sh*t. I was actually so relieved the other guy bought an Allez
instead of BD. He doesn't know how much of a bump he got. It's like basic
Adidas shoes will surely be so much better than a fancy version of Peak,
Anta, 361 or the like.
BTW, Fuji has shifted their product lines and design styles in the past
couple of years, so the old SLs must be warehouse wholesale lot closeout
picked up by BD.
My advise is, companies have personalities. It's really not that hard to
miss. Here is my question to you. Would you rather ride a $2000 Motobecane
with Dura Ace, or a $2000 TREK with 105?
That's all I am going to say about this, before I wander into political
incorrectness. | a****t
发帖数: 720 | 8 zan~~~
the
very
2000%
【在 b******n 的大作中提到】
: I know BD is really popular so I hope I don't offend anybody, but as a "
: manufacturer" now (LOL), I have learned a lot of details about the bike
: business and would like to share with you.
: Firstly, in terms of cost, I can get aluminum road bike frames as cheap as
: US$15, or as expensive as over 600USD (which is 40 times more than the
: former). I can go on for 3 days to describe the many differences between the
: two, material, workmanship, testing, R&D, and many other things...
: As most consumers would judge an unknown frame by its components, it's very
: very easy to get a US$15 frame and build it up with Dura Ace. So they guy
: can literally pass on the Dura Ace group to you at his cost but make a 2000%
|
| f**********e
发帖数: 1994 | 9 因为你上一次对 flyxii 的评论，我现在已经把山寨碳架换成 Cervelo R3 了。牌子的
确不只
是一张贴纸而已。
回到 BD：BD 有台超低价的 DuraAce 烂车。我有阵子还有冲动要把他买回来拆光变成
build
kit。我相信他们的 components 都是 at cost 在卖的。
untrained
to
fucked
Handling
Allez
basic
【在 b******n 的大作中提到】
: unfortunately it is indeed difficult to tell the difference to the untrained
: eye. Plus human weaknesses would kick in and blur whatever one is able to
: differentiate, with the devil strongly rooting for BD.
: I will give you a very easy example, many of these cheap frames have fucked
: up geometry. Either a super short head tube, or weird angles, etc. Handling
: will be like sh*t. I was actually so relieved the other guy bought an Allez
: instead of BD. He doesn't know how much of a bump he got. It's like basic
: Adidas shoes will surely be so much better than a fancy version of Peak,
: Anta, 361 or the like.
: BTW, Fuji has shifted their product lines and design styles in the past
| n******d
发帖数: 3583 | | | | p********y
发帖数: 5141 | 11 太赞了！内行就是内行！
untrained
to
fucked
Handling
Allez
basic
【在 b******n 的大作中提到】
: unfortunately it is indeed difficult to tell the difference to the untrained
: eye. Plus human weaknesses would kick in and blur whatever one is able to
: differentiate, with the devil strongly rooting for BD.
: I will give you a very easy example, many of these cheap frames have fucked
: up geometry. Either a super short head tube, or weird angles, etc. Handling
: will be like sh*t. I was actually so relieved the other guy bought an Allez
: instead of BD. He doesn't know how much of a bump he got. It's like basic
: Adidas shoes will surely be so much better than a fancy version of Peak,
: Anta, 361 or the like.
: BTW, Fuji has shifted their product lines and design styles in the past
| p**s
发帖数: 724 | 12 Where to get the parts at low prices then?
Is nashbar a good place? | R*****s
发帖数: 41236 | 13 其实跟BD没太大关系， 任何bike company的车架材料成本都不高，
哪怕是碳架，也就是块塑料而已....一般牌子车整车比只卖一个frame
贵不了太多， 就是因为frame的利润太高了...
当然，他们研发这个车架的geometry可能花了非常多的人力物力
在里面， 我个人看来frame还是比component重要的多， 所以
同样两千块， 我肯定挑Trek with 105, 而不是Motobecane
with Dura Ace...
大牌公司的架子毕竟还是经过时间和无数比赛考验的， 好像
triathlon 里面cervelo的车最流行一样...
untrained
to
fucked
Handling
Allez
basic
【在 b******n 的大作中提到】
: unfortunately it is indeed difficult to tell the difference to the untrained
: eye. Plus human weaknesses would kick in and blur whatever one is able to
: differentiate, with the devil strongly rooting for BD.
: I will give you a very easy example, many of these cheap frames have fucked
: up geometry. Either a super short head tube, or weird angles, etc. Handling
: will be like sh*t. I was actually so relieved the other guy bought an Allez
: instead of BD. He doesn't know how much of a bump he got. It's like basic
: Adidas shoes will surely be so much better than a fancy version of Peak,
: Anta, 361 or the like.
: BTW, Fuji has shifted their product lines and design styles in the past
| b******n
发帖数: 1269 | 14 也看你用什么碳纤维。一公斤我用的最好的碳，可以买刚刚说的底端铝架用的铝材的几
百公斤。
我跟BD也没有什么。只是它是那种经营路线中最出名的一个（Like McDonald's to
fast food）.说实话我有一阵子没看过他们的东西了。不过最开始的时候，看到他们的
东西我都会go "WTF？Why would you ever put DA on that?"
只是最近了解到很多行业信息之后有点大跌眼镜。本来也不想多说，只是因为看到刚刚
那个买了750块钱的闪电的哥们两行字就三四次提到BD，感觉就跟去奥运不为中国队加
油那种“almost apologetic”的感觉。 | p********r
发帖数: 3799 | 15 那请问，你觉得现在市场上，那个牌子的frame和design比较不错呢?问得再具体点就是
如果我预算$4000,那个牌子会比较好?我现在比较喜欢colnago,就是不知道怎么样。
untrained
to
fucked
Handling
Allez
basic
【在 b******n 的大作中提到】
: unfortunately it is indeed difficult to tell the difference to the untrained
: eye. Plus human weaknesses would kick in and blur whatever one is able to
: differentiate, with the devil strongly rooting for BD.
: I will give you a very easy example, many of these cheap frames have fucked
: up geometry. Either a super short head tube, or weird angles, etc. Handling
: will be like sh*t. I was actually so relieved the other guy bought an Allez
: instead of BD. He doesn't know how much of a bump he got. It's like basic
: Adidas shoes will surely be so much better than a fancy version of Peak,
: Anta, 361 or the like.
: BTW, Fuji has shifted their product lines and design styles in the past
| B****n
发帖数: 194 | 16 自行车太暴利了，问题如果只有800块，怎么才能在北美买到好架子的车，稍微有点名
气的牌子都的1000多，还得是打折。
【在 b******n 的大作中提到】
: 也看你用什么碳纤维。一公斤我用的最好的碳，可以买刚刚说的底端铝架用的铝材的几
: 百公斤。
: 我跟BD也没有什么。只是它是那种经营路线中最出名的一个（Like McDonald's to
: fast food）.说实话我有一阵子没看过他们的东西了。不过最开始的时候，看到他们的
: 东西我都会go "WTF？Why would you ever put DA on that?"
: 只是最近了解到很多行业信息之后有点大跌眼镜。本来也不想多说，只是因为看到刚刚
: 那个买了750块钱的闪电的哥们两行字就三四次提到BD，感觉就跟去奥运不为中国队加
: 油那种“almost apologetic”的感觉。
| b******n
发帖数: 1269 | 17 我这里重点说的是架子和套件的开支比例问题，并不是总数的问题（其实自行车的利润
率在制造业算低的）。
下面那哥们的700多块的闪电不是挺好么？
如果你始终过不了“Ultegra Level Bike”这一关，那当我没说。 凤姐穿上一身爱玛
仕，她还是凤姐。
【在 B****n 的大作中提到】
: 自行车太暴利了，问题如果只有800块，怎么才能在北美买到好架子的车，稍微有点名
: 气的牌子都的1000多，还得是打折。
| b******n
发帖数: 1269 | 18 如果是我毫无保留的推荐，肯定是：Falco Peregrine Hi-Mod Carbon + Falco carbon
wheels + CP Record. LOL
如果是我避嫌的推荐，那就是大品牌的顶级系列的低端款。这么说吧, Cannondale,
SCOTT，之类的，高系列的低端款。
数学公式很简单：一个系列设计已经有了，R&D钱已经花了。最后往往是同样的架子（
或者相差不多的架子，比如碳纤维差一些），放上１０５，和稍稍难看的涂装，就卖
3000美金；但是放上Dura Ace 和好看点点的涂装，就卖7000美金。公司的本钱之差也
许就是800美金这样，但售价差4000。Basically, milk the rich guy.
汽车的选配，也是这个道理。
【在 p********r 的大作中提到】
: 那请问，你觉得现在市场上，那个牌子的frame和design比较不错呢?问得再具体点就是
: 如果我预算$4000,那个牌子会比较好?我现在比较喜欢colnago,就是不知道怎么样。
:
: untrained
: to
: fucked
: Handling
: Allez
: basic
| B****n
发帖数: 194 | 19 得，还得在BD，不是一个level的
【在 b******n 的大作中提到】
: 我这里重点说的是架子和套件的开支比例问题，并不是总数的问题（其实自行车的利润
: 率在制造业算低的）。
: 下面那哥们的700多块的闪电不是挺好么？
: 如果你始终过不了“Ultegra Level Bike”这一关，那当我没说。 凤姐穿上一身爱玛
: 仕，她还是凤姐。
| B****n
发帖数: 194 | 20 得，还得在BD，不是一个level的
【在 b******n 的大作中提到】
: 我这里重点说的是架子和套件的开支比例问题，并不是总数的问题（其实自行车的利润
: 率在制造业算低的）。
: 下面那哥们的700多块的闪电不是挺好么？
: 如果你始终过不了“Ultegra Level Bike”这一关，那当我没说。 凤姐穿上一身爱玛
: 仕，她还是凤姐。
| | | R*****s
发帖数: 41236 | 21 直接P5算了....
【在 p********r 的大作中提到】
: 那请问，你觉得现在市场上，那个牌子的frame和design比较不错呢?问得再具体点就是
: 如果我预算$4000,那个牌子会比较好?我现在比较喜欢colnago,就是不知道怎么样。
:
: untrained
: to
: fucked
: Handling
: Allez
: basic
| R*****s
发帖数: 41236 | 22 要是用来比赛的车， 买个一两千的也不算啥吧，
一个IM的报名费就600刀， 还是扔水里的....
【在 B****n 的大作中提到】
: 得，还得在BD，不是一个level的
| f****l
发帖数: 5514 | 23 果然, 他们是故意把低端型号的涂装弄得难看的...
carbon
【在 b******n 的大作中提到】
: 如果是我毫无保留的推荐，肯定是：Falco Peregrine Hi-Mod Carbon + Falco carbon
: wheels + CP Record. LOL
: 如果是我避嫌的推荐，那就是大品牌的顶级系列的低端款。这么说吧, Cannondale,
: SCOTT，之类的，高系列的低端款。
: 数学公式很简单：一个系列设计已经有了，R&D钱已经花了。最后往往是同样的架子（
: 或者相差不多的架子，比如碳纤维差一些），放上１０５，和稍稍难看的涂装，就卖
: 3000美金；但是放上Dura Ace 和好看点点的涂装，就卖7000美金。公司的本钱之差也
: 许就是800美金这样，但售价差4000。Basically, milk the rich guy.
: 汽车的选配，也是这个道理。
| c*******r
发帖数: 13580 | 24 in marketing, it's a common strategy to discriminate.
in my industry (software), we call them SKUs. Windows Ultimate and Windows
Home have exactly the same code base. When we package Windows Home, we
disable certain features. if you want these features, you gotta pay more.
【在 f****l 的大作中提到】
: 果然, 他们是故意把低端型号的涂装弄得难看的...
:
: carbon
| l*******o
发帖数: 669 | 25
the
very
2000%
I think the same can be said of most bike vendors. BD is not particularly
good or bad. I mean, you probably are not getting a great deal from buying
from BD, but you are not getting a lemon either with the price you paid.
【在 b******n 的大作中提到】
: I know BD is really popular so I hope I don't offend anybody, but as a "
: manufacturer" now (LOL), I have learned a lot of details about the bike
: business and would like to share with you.
: Firstly, in terms of cost, I can get aluminum road bike frames as cheap as
: US$15, or as expensive as over 600USD (which is 40 times more than the
: former). I can go on for 3 days to describe the many differences between the
: two, material, workmanship, testing, R&D, and many other things...
: As most consumers would judge an unknown frame by its components, it's very
: very easy to get a US$15 frame and build it up with Dura Ace. So they guy
: can literally pass on the Dura Ace group to you at his cost but make a 2000%
| p********y
发帖数: 5141 | 26 桶桶，你对windows 8和windows phone怎么看？
【在 c*******r 的大作中提到】
: in marketing, it's a common strategy to discriminate.
: in my industry (software), we call them SKUs. Windows Ultimate and Windows
: Home have exactly the same code base. When we package Windows Home, we
: disable certain features. if you want these features, you gotta pay more.
| p********r
发帖数: 3799 | 27 所以我只用linux...
【在 c*******r 的大作中提到】
: in marketing, it's a common strategy to discriminate.
: in my industry (software), we call them SKUs. Windows Ultimate and Windows
: Home have exactly the same code base. When we package Windows Home, we
: disable certain features. if you want these features, you gotta pay more.
| c*******r
发帖数: 13580 | 28 我还是用不惯Windows 8，虽然用了快一年了，还在用classic模式。希望end user们喜
欢就好了。我反正也不花钱买。
windows phone不知道，我只有dumb phone。我在路上不看email，不上网。
【在 p********y 的大作中提到】
: 桶桶，你对windows 8和windows phone怎么看？
| c*******r
发帖数: 13580 | 29 我原来也只用linux, macosx和freebsd，后来不是加入微软了嘛
【在 p********r 的大作中提到】
: 所以我只用linux...
| p********y
发帖数: 5141 | 30 windows 8连你都这么难上手。这不能算是intuitive吧。。。
【在 c*******r 的大作中提到】
: 我还是用不惯Windows 8，虽然用了快一年了，还在用classic模式。希望end user们喜
: 欢就好了。我反正也不花钱买。
: windows phone不知道，我只有dumb phone。我在路上不看email，不上网。
| | | c*******r
发帖数: 13580 | 31 跟这个没关系吧，我整天用visual studio和notepad++，还有cmd.exe。普通用户都不
怎么用的。
【在 p********y 的大作中提到】
: windows 8连你都这么难上手。这不能算是intuitive吧。。。
| O****e
发帖数: 3290 | 32 The best analysis I've seen on this board regarding bike quality and price.
Thanks.
the
very
2000%
【在 b******n 的大作中提到】
: I know BD is really popular so I hope I don't offend anybody, but as a "
: manufacturer" now (LOL), I have learned a lot of details about the bike
: business and would like to share with you.
: Firstly, in terms of cost, I can get aluminum road bike frames as cheap as
: US$15, or as expensive as over 600USD (which is 40 times more than the
: former). I can go on for 3 days to describe the many differences between the
: two, material, workmanship, testing, R&D, and many other things...
: As most consumers would judge an unknown frame by its components, it's very
: very easy to get a US$15 frame and build it up with Dura Ace. So they guy
: can literally pass on the Dura Ace group to you at his cost but make a 2000%
| t***t
发帖数: 6066 | 33 不过我上次在BD买的fuji absolute 1.0 700块还不错。不是杂牌，都用的105
components。 | l*****s
发帖数: 156 | 34 Had a Motobecane HT500 with upgraded Sram X5/X7 components, one of the best
hardtail in terms of geometry for maneuverability. | b******n
发帖数: 1269 | 35 单纯从配车和骑行的角度说，各部分相对均衡一些比较好。
这东西其实也看各人观念的。
就好比，一家超市的可乐或鸡蛋(或者其他价格敏感的产品)价格在周边的商场算最低，
只赚你一两分钱，但是它的某个马桶刷子可以赚你个十几倍的利润。
又好比，你GRE苦学三五年，考进名校，其实周围那种学了两个月就考进的人对你不一
定有“respect”.
做人和做生意，太smart不一定是好事。
何况零配件的组车价比车店的批发价都低不少。其实Super Record + 底端铝架明摆着
就是冲击 Campy 的 after market 市场。这种做法其实也在测试SHIMANO/SRAM/CP的心
理极限，搞不好就有官司的。
从消费者的角度说，有时候觉得自己赚了便宜，其实未必。 | i*********5
发帖数: 19210 | | p********y
发帖数: 5141 | 37 谢谢版大造福大众！
【在 i*********5 的大作中提到】
: 置顶
| i***e
发帖数: 3219 | 38 BD是自己做自行车，还是只是经销商？
the
very
2000%
【在 b******n 的大作中提到】
: I know BD is really popular so I hope I don't offend anybody, but as a "
: manufacturer" now (LOL), I have learned a lot of details about the bike
: business and would like to share with you.
: Firstly, in terms of cost, I can get aluminum road bike frames as cheap as
: US$15, or as expensive as over 600USD (which is 40 times more than the
: former). I can go on for 3 days to describe the many differences between the
: two, material, workmanship, testing, R&D, and many other things...
: As most consumers would judge an unknown frame by its components, it's very
: very easy to get a US$15 frame and build it up with Dura Ace. So they guy
: can literally pass on the Dura Ace group to you at his cost but make a 2000%
| s*****l
发帖数: 7106 | |
|
