h*****r
发帖数: 143 | 1 历史不是随意涂抹而为政治服务的工具。 历史最基本的原则是真实。
春秋战国时期，齐国大夫崔杼弑齐庄公。 “齐国太史公如实记载了这件事，崔杼心怒
，杀了太史。太史的二个弟弟也如实记载，都被崔杼杀了。崔杼告诉太史第三个弟弟说
“你三个哥哥都死了，你难道不怕死吗？你还是按我的要求：把庄公之死写成得暴病而
死来写吧”，太史弟弟正色回答“据事直书，是史官的职责，失职求生，不如去死。你
做的这件事，迟早会被大家知道的，我即使不写，也掩盖不了你的罪责，反而成为千古
笑柄”。崔杼无话可说，只得放了他。太史弟弟走出来，正遇到南史公执简而来，南史
公以为他也被杀了，是来继续实写这事的。
如此前赴后继，真千古绝唱！”
古代的史官的精神，就是一种威武不能屈，富贵不能淫的精神。 记录的历史，以真实
为第一原则， 不为任何人涂脂抹粉。 经历了2000多年的黑暗专制统治， 这种精神慢
慢就不存在了。 历史可以胡编乱造，刻意隐瞒。 御用文人，放弃了一切原则， 为当
权者歌功颂德。 历史还是历史么？
历史的教材，如果都是这帮御用文人编写。 历史老师讲着自己都不相信的历史， 学生
会相信么？ 就算一时被蒙蔽了， 当他们觉 | W*********7
发帖数: 426 | 2 说得有些道理. 不过我以为袁的大多数言论连矫枉过正都谈不上, 倒是我们过去在历史
教科书里学到的东西是极大的歪曲, 长期的渲染之下听到了不同的声音还不习惯, 觉得
刺耳, 怀疑是夸大.
最可怕的, 是学到了记住了歪曲的史实, 却还要抱着捍卫历史的姿态为强权, 暴政和谎
言说话. | W****n
发帖数: 591 | 3 老衲这几天也一直在看，非常好的老师。
他好在传递了一种理性的思想方法，无论他百般嬉笑怒骂，在大方向上他的言论都是基
本严格基于目前所能获得的史实经过独立思考后得出的结论，论从史出，而不是由着自
己的性子和好恶乱放厥辞。
这种独立思考能力才是广大国民最最最或缺的。
老衲认为全体中国人都需要看看他的课，而不仅仅是这点网民儿童。 | W*********7
发帖数: 426 | 4 中国共产党还是先照看好自己的党史吧, 这改来改去的, 都多少回了? 如果是大体真实
的, 还需要改那么多? 历史真是个任人打扮的小姑娘啊. | d***n
发帖数: 902 | 5 袁讲述的历史，尤其是毛共历史，一点都没有矫枉过正，看来楼主还没搞清楚毛腊肉造
成灾难性质和规模，无论是大饥荒还是文革这样的政治动乱，都是人类历史上的大浩劫
。 | h*****r
发帖数: 143 | 6 经常听闻， 中国国民 民智未开， 故而不宜贸然实行民主。 所谓开化民智， 也就是
西方的启蒙运动， 在中国可能也就是 五四的时候 有过一段。
或许， 他传递的 理性思想方法， 能成为中国再次启蒙运动的先导。 慢慢地， 中国
也有自己的思想家， 国民民智得到开化， 民主的环境慢慢成熟。 到那个时候， 中国
才算是真正的崛起。
【在 W****n 的大作中提到】
: 老衲这几天也一直在看，非常好的老师。
: 他好在传递了一种理性的思想方法，无论他百般嬉笑怒骂，在大方向上他的言论都是基
: 本严格基于目前所能获得的史实经过独立思考后得出的结论，论从史出，而不是由着自
: 己的性子和好恶乱放厥辞。
: 这种独立思考能力才是广大国民最最最或缺的。
: 老衲认为全体中国人都需要看看他的课，而不仅仅是这点网民儿童。
| h*****r
发帖数: 143 | 7 经常听闻， 中国国民 民智未开， 故而不宜贸然实行民主。 所谓开化民智， 也就是
西方的启蒙运动， 在中国可能也就是 五四的时候 有过一段。
或许， 他传递的 理性思想方法， 能成为中国再次启蒙运动的先导。 慢慢地， 中国
也有自己的思想家， 国民民智得到开化， 民主的环境慢慢成熟。 到那个时候， 中国
才算是真正的崛起。
【在 W****n 的大作中提到】
: 老衲这几天也一直在看，非常好的老师。
: 他好在传递了一种理性的思想方法，无论他百般嬉笑怒骂，在大方向上他的言论都是基
: 本严格基于目前所能获得的史实经过独立思考后得出的结论，论从史出，而不是由着自
: 己的性子和好恶乱放厥辞。
: 这种独立思考能力才是广大国民最最最或缺的。
: 老衲认为全体中国人都需要看看他的课，而不仅仅是这点网民儿童。
| h*****r
发帖数: 143 | 8 我从来没有认为 共产党书写的历史是真实的。
【在 W*********7 的大作中提到】
: 中国共产党还是先照看好自己的党史吧, 这改来改去的, 都多少回了? 如果是大体真实
: 的, 还需要改那么多? 历史真是个任人打扮的小姑娘啊.
| h*****r
发帖数: 143 | 9 我当然清楚。 并且，我是很欣赏袁腾飞的。 矫枉是主要的。 至于有没有过正， 恐怕
有那么一点点。 一点点而已。
【在 d***n 的大作中提到】
: 袁讲述的历史，尤其是毛共历史，一点都没有矫枉过正，看来楼主还没搞清楚毛腊肉造
: 成灾难性质和规模，无论是大饥荒还是文革这样的政治动乱，都是人类历史上的大浩劫
: 。
| W****n
发帖数: 591 | 10 youtube上有台湾拍的 百年民国
胡适当年是断不同意你这民智不开，民主不行的结论的。其实当年民间对民主共和的反
响还是差强人意的。
无论是太祖的“万万岁”还是蒋公的“陵寝”，一个社会的自然进化却是一种不可抵挡
的力量。
【在 h*****r 的大作中提到】
: 经常听闻， 中国国民 民智未开， 故而不宜贸然实行民主。 所谓开化民智， 也就是
: 西方的启蒙运动， 在中国可能也就是 五四的时候 有过一段。
: 或许， 他传递的 理性思想方法， 能成为中国再次启蒙运动的先导。 慢慢地， 中国
: 也有自己的思想家， 国民民智得到开化， 民主的环境慢慢成熟。 到那个时候， 中国
: 才算是真正的崛起。
| | | g*******e
发帖数: 93 | 11 在此支持一下袁老师。其实，他这样的老师并不少。还有很多。
【在 h*****r 的大作中提到】
: 历史不是随意涂抹而为政治服务的工具。 历史最基本的原则是真实。
: 春秋战国时期，齐国大夫崔杼弑齐庄公。 “齐国太史公如实记载了这件事，崔杼心怒
: ，杀了太史。太史的二个弟弟也如实记载，都被崔杼杀了。崔杼告诉太史第三个弟弟说
: “你三个哥哥都死了，你难道不怕死吗？你还是按我的要求：把庄公之死写成得暴病而
: 死来写吧”，太史弟弟正色回答“据事直书，是史官的职责，失职求生，不如去死。你
: 做的这件事，迟早会被大家知道的，我即使不写，也掩盖不了你的罪责，反而成为千古
: 笑柄”。崔杼无话可说，只得放了他。太史弟弟走出来，正遇到南史公执简而来，南史
: 公以为他也被杀了，是来继续实写这事的。
: 如此前赴后继，真千古绝唱！”
: 古代的史官的精神，就是一种威武不能屈，富贵不能淫的精神。 记录的历史，以真实
| h*****r
发帖数: 143 | 12 不管现状如何。 历史潮流，浩浩荡荡， 顺之则昌，逆之则亡。
希望，民主早日实现吧。 天佑中华。
【在 W****n 的大作中提到】
: youtube上有台湾拍的 百年民国
: 胡适当年是断不同意你这民智不开，民主不行的结论的。其实当年民间对民主共和的反
: 响还是差强人意的。
: 无论是太祖的“万万岁”还是蒋公的“陵寝”，一个社会的自然进化却是一种不可抵挡
: 的力量。
| h*****r
发帖数: 143 | 13 同支持。 正义的力量还是强大的， 乌云毕竟遮不住太阳。
一个甲子过去了， 该是拨云见日的时候了。
【在 g*******e 的大作中提到】
: 在此支持一下袁老师。其实，他这样的老师并不少。还有很多。
| Q****r
发帖数: 7340 | 14 这样的好老师太少太少了
【在 d***n 的大作中提到】
: 袁讲述的历史，尤其是毛共历史，一点都没有矫枉过正，看来楼主还没搞清楚毛腊肉造
: 成灾难性质和规模，无论是大饥荒还是文革这样的政治动乱，都是人类历史上的大浩劫
: 。
| l******s
发帖数: 116 | 15 他的言论有不少也是不靠谱的吧？
顶多只能算个敢说话的石头而已，只会人云亦云，没多少是他自己的研究成果
【在 h*****r 的大作中提到】
: 历史不是随意涂抹而为政治服务的工具。 历史最基本的原则是真实。
: 春秋战国时期，齐国大夫崔杼弑齐庄公。 “齐国太史公如实记载了这件事，崔杼心怒
: ，杀了太史。太史的二个弟弟也如实记载，都被崔杼杀了。崔杼告诉太史第三个弟弟说
: “你三个哥哥都死了，你难道不怕死吗？你还是按我的要求：把庄公之死写成得暴病而
: 死来写吧”，太史弟弟正色回答“据事直书，是史官的职责，失职求生，不如去死。你
: 做的这件事，迟早会被大家知道的，我即使不写，也掩盖不了你的罪责，反而成为千古
: 笑柄”。崔杼无话可说，只得放了他。太史弟弟走出来，正遇到南史公执简而来，南史
: 公以为他也被杀了，是来继续实写这事的。
: 如此前赴后继，真千古绝唱！”
: 古代的史官的精神，就是一种威武不能屈，富贵不能淫的精神。 记录的历史，以真实
| s*******e
发帖数: 3077 | 16 别逗了，一中学老师你要多少研究成果？
能敢于讲与官方不同的历史观点已经是很大的勇气了
他这样的历史老师只是少数，你何来人云亦云的评价，有点莫名其妙啊
【在 l******s 的大作中提到】
: 他的言论有不少也是不靠谱的吧？
: 顶多只能算个敢说话的石头而已，只会人云亦云，没多少是他自己的研究成果
| l******s
发帖数: 116 | 17 这样的老师很容易误人子弟。。。多少愤青就是被这些老师害的
【在 s*******e 的大作中提到】
: 别逗了，一中学老师你要多少研究成果？
: 能敢于讲与官方不同的历史观点已经是很大的勇气了
: 他这样的历史老师只是少数，你何来人云亦云的评价，有点莫名其妙啊
| b******s
发帖数: 184 | 18 放屁，按照你们这样的逻辑，估计早就成菲律宾市中心被烧死的万人了。
【在 d***n 的大作中提到】
: 袁讲述的历史，尤其是毛共历史，一点都没有矫枉过正，看来楼主还没搞清楚毛腊肉造
: 成灾难性质和规模，无论是大饥荒还是文革这样的政治动乱，都是人类历史上的大浩劫
: 。
| s*******e
发帖数: 3077 | 19 你得了吧，义和团式的愤青基本上是被官方爱国主义给忽悠的
【在 l******s 的大作中提到】
: 这样的老师很容易误人子弟。。。多少愤青就是被这些老师害的
| w**k
发帖数: 1455 | 20 我觉得他讲课很好，也很有逻辑，到是中国的历史教科书，被扭曲的相当厉害，就是秽
史，垃圾，党的私货太多
【在 h*****r 的大作中提到】
: 历史不是随意涂抹而为政治服务的工具。 历史最基本的原则是真实。
: 春秋战国时期，齐国大夫崔杼弑齐庄公。 “齐国太史公如实记载了这件事，崔杼心怒
: ，杀了太史。太史的二个弟弟也如实记载，都被崔杼杀了。崔杼告诉太史第三个弟弟说
: “你三个哥哥都死了，你难道不怕死吗？你还是按我的要求：把庄公之死写成得暴病而
: 死来写吧”，太史弟弟正色回答“据事直书，是史官的职责，失职求生，不如去死。你
: 做的这件事，迟早会被大家知道的，我即使不写，也掩盖不了你的罪责，反而成为千古
: 笑柄”。崔杼无话可说，只得放了他。太史弟弟走出来，正遇到南史公执简而来，南史
: 公以为他也被杀了，是来继续实写这事的。
: 如此前赴后继，真千古绝唱！”
: 古代的史官的精神，就是一种威武不能屈，富贵不能淫的精神。 记录的历史，以真实
| | | S*******r
发帖数: 11017 | 21 顶楼主
小袁的问题是 有时候容易信口开河 削弱了自己言论的credibility | z****n
发帖数: 1933 | 22 袁腾飞批判愤青是,网络义和团,一无知,二爱国,三轻生
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Evir15MCQyY
【在 l******s 的大作中提到】
: 这样的老师很容易误人子弟。。。多少愤青就是被这些老师害的
| a********6
发帖数: 14468 | 23 我觉得冤腾飞应该被就地正法,还反了他了? 信口雌黄,满嘴跑火车.3年自然灾害就是
自然灾害,在富裕国家也不能保证不死人. | c******g
发帖数: 1217 | 24 你大嘴一张就是富裕国家也不能不死人了。
【在 a********6 的大作中提到】
: 我觉得冤腾飞应该被就地正法,还反了他了? 信口雌黄,满嘴跑火车.3年自然灾害就是
: 自然灾害,在富裕国家也不能保证不死人.
| R***o
发帖数: 227 | 25 你认为古代的史官都以真实为基本原则就太天真了。
谁早就说过了，历史是统治阶级写的。
【在 h*****r 的大作中提到】
: 历史不是随意涂抹而为政治服务的工具。 历史最基本的原则是真实。
: 春秋战国时期，齐国大夫崔杼弑齐庄公。 “齐国太史公如实记载了这件事，崔杼心怒
: ，杀了太史。太史的二个弟弟也如实记载，都被崔杼杀了。崔杼告诉太史第三个弟弟说
: “你三个哥哥都死了，你难道不怕死吗？你还是按我的要求：把庄公之死写成得暴病而
: 死来写吧”，太史弟弟正色回答“据事直书，是史官的职责，失职求生，不如去死。你
: 做的这件事，迟早会被大家知道的，我即使不写，也掩盖不了你的罪责，反而成为千古
: 笑柄”。崔杼无话可说，只得放了他。太史弟弟走出来，正遇到南史公执简而来，南史
: 公以为他也被杀了，是来继续实写这事的。
: 如此前赴后继，真千古绝唱！”
: 古代的史官的精神，就是一种威武不能屈，富贵不能淫的精神。 记录的历史，以真实
| q******j
发帖数: 577 | 26 Even TG admitted "a lot" of their mistakes in their text books. It is so
hard for you to admit that 一点点.
发信人: higator (gator), 信区: ChinaNews
标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 5 00:51:43 2010, 美东)
我当然清楚。 并且，我是很欣赏袁腾飞的。 矫枉是主要的。 至于有没有过正， 恐怕
有那么一点点。 一点点而已。 | h*****r
发帖数: 143 | 27 从来没有说都是. 有那么一些就不错了. 现在, 都不敢想象有多少文人能够在刀架在脖
子上的时候还能坚持自己的原则. 但是,起码, 不能说5毛钱就把自己的灵魂卖了. 连贫
贱不能移都做不到, 更别说威武不能屈了. 别看他们现在挺爱国, 国家危亡的时候, 他
们卖国比谁都快.
【在 R***o 的大作中提到】
: 你认为古代的史官都以真实为基本原则就太天真了。
: 谁早就说过了，历史是统治阶级写的。
| h*****r
发帖数: 143 | 28 TG 啥时候 admitted 了？ admitted了， 还用那个教材， 那不是明知故犯么， 那不
是误人子弟么。
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: Even TG admitted "a lot" of their mistakes in their text books. It is so
: hard for you to admit that 一点点.
: 发信人: higator (gator), 信区: ChinaNews
: 标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 5 00:51:43 2010, 美东)
: 我当然清楚。 并且，我是很欣赏袁腾飞的。 矫枉是主要的。 至于有没有过正， 恐怕
: 有那么一点点。 一点点而已。
| q******j
发帖数: 577 | 29 You must have not studied TG's text book well. TG admitted the wrong doing
of "反右," "大跃进,"文化大革命" .....
发信人: higator (gator), 信区: ChinaNews
标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 5 14:16:22 2010, 美东)
TG 啥时候 admitted 了？ admitted了， 还用那个教材， 那不是明知故犯么， 那不
是误人子弟么。 | c******g
发帖数: 1217 | 30 我抽你一顿，admit打过你。
管用吗？
doing
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: You must have not studied TG's text book well. TG admitted the wrong doing
: of "反右," "大跃进,"文化大革命" .....
: 发信人: higator (gator), 信区: ChinaNews
: 标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 5 14:16:22 2010, 美东)
: TG 啥时候 admitted 了？ admitted了， 还用那个教材， 那不是明知故犯么， 那不
: 是误人子弟么。
| | | n**u
发帖数: 6997 | 31 我总是很好奇
为什么MITBBS 总有一些奇谈怪论
而且只要一有什么新闻
MITBBS 总有相关评论出来
怎么有这么多人这么闲的？
发帖有饭吃吗？ | d****e
发帖数: 251 | 32 我觉得最重要的是他告诉他的学生历史教科书不可信，要学会分析、思考。但是
考试还是要考的，他同时没有脱离教学大纲，学生该背什么，不用记住什么，
一点没漏。这个很不容易做到的。
我的中学历史老师从来没有这样分析过历史课本，也没有要求我们思考过历史。
另外一个例子是，大学的邓小平理论，一个年轻老师从第一堂课就说：课本我们不用翻
，学期结束的时候统一背一下考试内容就行了，考完最好忘了。整个学期我们都是讨论
课。那是我最难忘的一门课。你可以理解国内当老师不容易。
【在 l******s 的大作中提到】
: 他的言论有不少也是不靠谱的吧？
: 顶多只能算个敢说话的石头而已，只会人云亦云，没多少是他自己的研究成果
| q******j
发帖数: 577 | 33 But 袁腾飞 抽你一顿, you don't even dare to admit it. Isn't it even worse?
发信人: coredeng (邓靠), 信区: ChinaNews
标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 5 14:29:32 2010, 美东)
我抽你一顿，admit打过你。
管用吗？ | h*****r
发帖数: 143 | 34 我以为你说的mistake是 教材里面的 mistake. 我说的矫枉过正，是对于教材内容的矫
枉过正。
教材错误较多，过正的部分，相对而言就只能算作一点点。
关于执政的错误， 一个老师也不可能去矫枉过正。
那些执政错误，教材里面遮遮掩掩， 承认的很勉强。 反思的不够，力度也不行。 “
文化大革
命” 就基本把责任推给那“四个人”。 客观么？ 合理么？
doing
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: You must have not studied TG's text book well. TG admitted the wrong doing
: of "反右," "大跃进,"文化大革命" .....
: 发信人: higator (gator), 信区: ChinaNews
: 标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 5 14:16:22 2010, 美东)
: TG 啥时候 admitted 了？ admitted了， 还用那个教材， 那不是明知故犯么， 那不
: 是误人子弟么。
| c******g
发帖数: 1217 | 35 他用口，党用手，一样吗？
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: But 袁腾飞 抽你一顿, you don't even dare to admit it. Isn't it even worse?
: 发信人: coredeng (邓靠), 信区: ChinaNews
: 标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 5 14:29:32 2010, 美东)
: 我抽你一顿，admit打过你。
: 管用吗？
| q******j
发帖数: 577 | 36 Do not need to distract from my original point. Even TG admitted their
wrong doing (you seemed to acknowledged it now). Is it that difficult to
admit 袁 is exagerrating on some points?
发信人: coredeng (邓靠), 信区: ChinaNews
标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 5 15:05:11 2010, 美东)
他用口，党用手，一样吗？
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: But 袁腾飞 抽你一顿, you don't even dare to admit it. Isn't it even worse?
: 发信人: coredeng (邓靠), 信区: ChinaNews
: 标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 5 14:29:32 2010, 美东)
: 我抽你一顿，admit打过你。
: 管用吗？
| q******j
发帖数: 577 | 37 Okay, now at least you and I are on the same page that TG did acknowledge
their mistakes in their textbook, even though 承认的很勉强 (which I also
agree). I just want to say that your admission that his 过正的部分只能算作
一点点 is also 很勉强. My focus is on some of his exagerations and baseless
conclusions. Of course, his words or actions are too weak to correct, if
can, anything. But on certain facts and conclusions, he is jumping from one
extreme to the other. That is called 矫枉过正.
发信人: higator (gator), 信区: | a********e
发帖数: 5251 | 38 袁腾飞是你们中国男人的榜样。
袁腾飞用脑用口，党用枪。 最钦佩这类正直，勇敢，勤奋，认真，敢于挑战权威，说
真话的人！
LZ只会跟TG鹦鹉学舌，死记硬背TG编篡的政治历史课本。是敢跟TG屁鼓后面，人云亦云
，胆小如鼠的WSN。也就敢挑斗敢言的少数派。
文革就是LZ这类货色太多才成了气候。还不长记性！
【在 c******g 的大作中提到】
: 我抽你一顿，admit打过你。
: 管用吗？
:
: doing
| h*****r
发帖数: 143 | 39 或许,我的文字不够那么旗帜鲜明. 不过,我不知道你怎么会去这么理解. 很奇怪.
【在 a********e 的大作中提到】
: 袁腾飞是你们中国男人的榜样。
: 袁腾飞用脑用口，党用枪。 最钦佩这类正直，勇敢，勤奋，认真，敢于挑战权威，说
: 真话的人！
: LZ只会跟TG鹦鹉学舌，死记硬背TG编篡的政治历史课本。是敢跟TG屁鼓后面，人云亦云
: ，胆小如鼠的WSN。也就敢挑斗敢言的少数派。
: 文革就是LZ这类货色太多才成了气候。还不长记性！
| x*****g
发帖数: 501 | 40 他自己都说自己只是一个中学老师
不要把他当成历史学家了
【在 l******s 的大作中提到】
: 他的言论有不少也是不靠谱的吧？
: 顶多只能算个敢说话的石头而已，只会人云亦云，没多少是他自己的研究成果
| | | w**k
发帖数: 1455 | 41 No, TG never admitted that they were fundamentally wrong and ought to be
held accountable for their actions. Their tactics are quite deceptive:
1. Blame a few to cover for the party as a whole.
2. Never admitted 反右 was a human rights violation and fundamentally wrong.
They are still trying to portray it as a good policy, but with bad
execution.
3. Never truly reflect on the disasters Mao had brought to China and
continue to worship his dead body.
doing
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: You must have not studied TG's text book well. TG admitted the wrong doing
: of "反右," "大跃进,"文化大革命" .....
: 发信人: higator (gator), 信区: ChinaNews
: 标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 5 14:16:22 2010, 美东)
: TG 啥时候 admitted 了？ admitted了， 还用那个教材， 那不是明知故犯么， 那不
: 是误人子弟么。
| a********e
发帖数: 5251 | 42 跟错贴了。骚蕊。
【在 h*****r 的大作中提到】
: 或许,我的文字不够那么旗帜鲜明. 不过,我不知道你怎么会去这么理解. 很奇怪.
| c******9
发帖数: 1353 | 43 曾经以为自己学的历史是真实的，鄙视日本人篡改历史教科书。后来渐渐清醒了，再也
不相信自己学的历史了，再也不敢鄙视别人了。
袁腾飞是个敢说真话的老师，很难得。但有时候言辞过于刻薄，作为老师，这一点需要
改进。 | q******j
发帖数: 577 | 44 Yes, just like somebody admitted 袁 矫枉过正 一点点, but deny some of his
views went to extreme. Quite deceptive.
发信人: WLRK (Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz), 信区: ChinaNews
标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 5 16:59:34 2010, 美东)
No, TG never admitted that they were fundamentally wrong and ought to be
held accountable for their actions. Their tactics are quite deceptive:
1. Blame a few to cover for the party as a whole.
2. Never admitted 反右 was a human rights violation and fundamentally | h*****r
发帖数: 143 | 45 我觉得,袁很多是对长期历史教材中的 胡言乱语, 御用文人为虎作伥的一种 嬉笑怒骂.
是对于公平正义长期被践踏的一种出离愤怒.
你想, 一个历史教材, 如果写得不真实. 老师, 同学都知道, 可是没有办法. 必须学习
, 还得考试, 还得按照教材的观点答题, 那是一件多么痛苦的事情啊.
他大部分引用的史实还是有据可考的. 在此之上表述的观点, 你可以仁者见仁, 也没什
么特别极端的地方. 他又没号召大家揭竿而起, 推翻政府. 也没有嘛.
一点点是个量化, 尺度看是跟什么相比. 与教材 的系统性的 胡说八道相比, 那真的就
是 一点点而已了. 况且, 他自己也曾经承认过, 他不是历史学家, 错误在所难免, 欢
迎大家指正. 他也没说过自己统统正确嘛.
wrong.
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: Yes, just like somebody admitted 袁 矫枉过正 一点点, but deny some of his
: views went to extreme. Quite deceptive.
: 发信人: WLRK (Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz), 信区: ChinaNews
: 标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 5 16:59:34 2010, 美东)
: No, TG never admitted that they were fundamentally wrong and ought to be
: held accountable for their actions. Their tactics are quite deceptive:
: 1. Blame a few to cover for the party as a whole.
: 2. Never admitted 反右 was a human rights violation and fundamentally
| q******j
发帖数: 577 | 46 Very good excuses. "I am not a historian, welcome any criticism." TG also
claims to welcome any criticism but I bet you won't let that excuse fly for
their mistakes.
I do not think the current text book is "systematically" 胡言乱语, 胡说八道.
You should not compare the high scholl text books with Phd's thesis. I
think the statements in the textbook about basic facts are generally fair.
Of course TG will keep its own ideological stuff in it, just as the US high
school textbooks would not spend hug | c******g
发帖数: 1217 | 47 土共welcome啥criticism了？
welcome to jail?
土共在历史书里写的都是事实？
你脑袋进水了吧.
土共讲没有讲刘少奇斗死了多少人？
土共讲没讲党内斗争多么残酷？
讲没讲武斗死了多少人？57-60年饿死了多少人？
土共是咋打死了那么多右派？怎么支持的外蒙古独立.
这个还是基本事实？你看人民日报看脑残了？
also
for
道.
high
humanitarian
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: Very good excuses. "I am not a historian, welcome any criticism." TG also
: claims to welcome any criticism but I bet you won't let that excuse fly for
: their mistakes.
: I do not think the current text book is "systematically" 胡言乱语, 胡说八道.
: You should not compare the high scholl text books with Phd's thesis. I
: think the statements in the textbook about basic facts are generally fair.
: Of course TG will keep its own ideological stuff in it, just as the US high
: school textbooks would not spend hug
| w**k
发帖数: 1455 | 48 I don't find his views are extreme by any means. Most of them are just
common sense.
wrong.
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: Yes, just like somebody admitted 袁 矫枉过正 一点点, but deny some of his
: views went to extreme. Quite deceptive.
: 发信人: WLRK (Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz), 信区: ChinaNews
: 标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 5 16:59:34 2010, 美东)
: No, TG never admitted that they were fundamentally wrong and ought to be
: held accountable for their actions. Their tactics are quite deceptive:
: 1. Blame a few to cover for the party as a whole.
: 2. Never admitted 反右 was a human rights violation and fundamentally
| h*****r
发帖数: 143 | 49 首先, 就不应该把 一个老师 和一个政党 拿来相比. 根本不是对等的实体, 有什么可
比性呢.
袁的言论, 有些是个人观点. 偶尔个别错误能和 一个执政党的错误拿来比较么?
我之所以说是系统性的. 是教材中以意识形态的灌输来贯穿整个历史的变迁. 具体而言
,就是
把整个中国的历史, 描绘成 一个阶级斗争史 和 革命史. 比如, 教材把一切 农民起
义 描绘
的 无比伟大. 但是, 你知道么? 唐末黄巢农民起义, 火烧长安城, 毁灭了汉唐以来 最
为闻名
的 文化, 经济, 政治的首都. 明末, 张献忠 屠四川, 整个四川 生灵涂炭, 几乎鸡犬
不留。
才有了后来的湖广填四川. 清末的 洪秀全 更是 亘古未有的暴君, 荒淫无道到了极点.
这些,
都是中国的历史最为黑暗的篇章, TG却因为自己是农民起义起家， 完全罔顾历史事实
， 拼命
歌颂这些农民领袖。
再说一个， 很有 意思的 说滥了的 “专业” 词汇 “三年自然灾害”。有什么必要用
一个这
么抽象的词汇呢？ 很奇怪，是不是？ 这就比如， 汶川发生了地震， 西南发生了旱灾
， 玉
树 地震。 都有明确的灾害缘由。 可那倒好， 就说“
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: Very good excuses. "I am not a historian, welcome any criticism." TG also
: claims to welcome any criticism but I bet you won't let that excuse fly for
: their mistakes.
: I do not think the current text book is "systematically" 胡言乱语, 胡说八道.
: You should not compare the high scholl text books with Phd's thesis. I
: think the statements in the textbook about basic facts are generally fair.
: Of course TG will keep its own ideological stuff in it, just as the US high
: school textbooks would not spend hug
| k*****e
发帖数: 22013 | 50 mark!
【在 h*****r 的大作中提到】
: 首先, 就不应该把 一个老师 和一个政党 拿来相比. 根本不是对等的实体, 有什么可
: 比性呢.
: 袁的言论, 有些是个人观点. 偶尔个别错误能和 一个执政党的错误拿来比较么?
: 我之所以说是系统性的. 是教材中以意识形态的灌输来贯穿整个历史的变迁. 具体而言
: ,就是
: 把整个中国的历史, 描绘成 一个阶级斗争史 和 革命史. 比如, 教材把一切 农民起
: 义 描绘
: 的 无比伟大. 但是, 你知道么? 唐末黄巢农民起义, 火烧长安城, 毁灭了汉唐以来 最
: 为闻名
: 的 文化, 经济, 政治的首都. 明末, 张献忠 屠四川, 整个四川 生灵涂炭, 几乎鸡犬
| | | q******j
发帖数: 577 | 51 Joke. You want high school students to 背 刘少奇斗死了多少人,武斗死了多少人
,57-60年饿死了多少人, 咋打死了那么多右派？怎么支持的外蒙古独立. LOL
发信人: coredeng (邓靠), 信区: ChinaNews
标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 5 18:49:57 2010, 美东)
土共welcome啥criticism了？
welcome to jail?
土共在历史书里写的都是事实？
你脑袋进水了吧.
土共讲没有讲刘少奇斗死了多少人？
土共讲没讲党内斗争多么残酷？
讲没讲武斗死了多少人？57-60年饿死了多少人？
土共是咋打死了那么多右派？怎么支持的外蒙古独立.
这个还是基本事实？你看人民日报看脑残了？ | w**k
发帖数: 1455 | 52 大跃进造成对社会那么大的破坏，至今还恬不知耻的声称是自然灾害，竟然还说已经认
错了?
至今还把不同政见者送进监狱，竟然还敢说代表人民?
袁腾飞走红不是没有原因，是因为大部人都认同他的观点，你吹捧党啊，毛啊，也可以
，有人理么?
also
for
道.
high
humanitarian
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: Very good excuses. "I am not a historian, welcome any criticism." TG also
: claims to welcome any criticism but I bet you won't let that excuse fly for
: their mistakes.
: I do not think the current text book is "systematically" 胡言乱语, 胡说八道.
: You should not compare the high scholl text books with Phd's thesis. I
: think the statements in the textbook about basic facts are generally fair.
: Of course TG will keep its own ideological stuff in it, just as the US high
: school textbooks would not spend hug
| q******j
发帖数: 577 | 53 Of course "most of them" are just common sense. If not, he needs to go to
hospital.
And of course, for those who wants to 揭竿而起, 推翻政府, he is not extreme
at all.
But as a teacher, he totally denied Mao's achievment. To me, that is an
example he went to extreme.
发信人: WLRK (Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz), 信区: ChinaNews
标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 5 19:13:08 2010, 美东)
I don't find his views are extreme by any means. Most of them are just
common sense. | w**k
发帖数: 1455 | 54 Don't try to confuse what you put in a textbook and what you test in an exam.
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: Joke. You want high school students to 背 刘少奇斗死了多少人,武斗死了多少人
: ,57-60年饿死了多少人, 咋打死了那么多右派？怎么支持的外蒙古独立. LOL
: 发信人: coredeng (邓靠), 信区: ChinaNews
: 标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 5 18:49:57 2010, 美东)
: 土共welcome啥criticism了？
: welcome to jail?
: 土共在历史书里写的都是事实？
: 你脑袋进水了吧.
: 土共讲没有讲刘少奇斗死了多少人？
| h*****r
发帖数: 143 | 55 He did not talk about Mao's achievement. But student, for sure, will learn
these
things from a lot of places, like political courses, etc. However, the
student may
not know much about Mao's evil if Yuan did not say.
extreme
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: Of course "most of them" are just common sense. If not, he needs to go to
: hospital.
: And of course, for those who wants to 揭竿而起, 推翻政府, he is not extreme
: at all.
: But as a teacher, he totally denied Mao's achievment. To me, that is an
: example he went to extreme.
: 发信人: WLRK (Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz), 信区: ChinaNews
: 标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 5 19:13:08 2010, 美东)
: I don't find his views are extreme by any means. Most of them are just
| q******j
发帖数: 577 | 56 政党 is made up of people. If people like 袁 is a party member or leader,
some of his extreme views could become 政党's view. As a teacher, 袁的错误
could affect the young students and make many more 愤青 down the road. 袁
should have taught the students how to objectively analyze historical
character and historical events. 矫枉过正 is never a good way to correct
things. In many ways, TG's mistakes can also be categorized as 矫枉过正,
but when they 正过分了 it is another disaster.
袁 is a good 愤青, but not a good te | q******j
发帖数: 577 | 57 Joke. His videos are popular because most of them are just some 演义评书
which brings some laughs to the classroom.
发信人: WLRK (Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz), 信区: ChinaNews
标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 5 19:40:52 2010, 美东)
大跃进造成对社会那么大的破坏，至今还恬不知耻的声称是自然灾害，竟然还说已经认
错了?
至今还把不同政见者送进监狱，竟然还敢说代表人民?
袁腾飞走红不是没有原因，是因为大部人都认同他的观点，你吹捧党啊，毛啊，也可以
，有人理么? | w**k
发帖数: 1455 | 58 Blah blah blah, Whatever. but the joke is on you.
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: Joke. His videos are popular because most of them are just some 演义评书
: which brings some laughs to the classroom.
: 发信人: WLRK (Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz), 信区: ChinaNews
: 标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 5 19:40:52 2010, 美东)
: 大跃进造成对社会那么大的破坏，至今还恬不知耻的声称是自然灾害，竟然还说已经认
: 错了?
: 至今还把不同政见者送进监狱，竟然还敢说代表人民?
: 袁腾飞走红不是没有原因，是因为大部人都认同他的观点，你吹捧党啊，毛啊，也可以
: ，有人理么?
| p*******o
发帖数: 3564 | | q******j
发帖数: 577 | 60 What do you mean, you want to put 刘少奇斗死了多少人,武斗死了多少人 ,57-60年
饿死了多少人, 咋打死了那么多右派？怎么支持的外蒙古独立 in the text book, but
not to test students those questions in the exam?
发信人: WLRK (Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz), 信区: ChinaNews
标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 5 19:45:24 2010, 美东)
Don't try to confuse what you put in a textbook and what you test in an exam.
人 ,57-60年饿死了多少人, 咋打死了那么多右派？怎么支持的外蒙古独立. LOL
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: Joke. You want high school students to 背 刘少奇斗死了多少人,武斗死了多少人
: ,57-60年饿死了多少人, 咋打死了那么多右派？怎么支持的外蒙古独立. LOL
: 发信人: coredeng (邓靠), 信区: ChinaNews
: 标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 5 18:49:57 2010, 美东)
: 土共welcome啥criticism了？
: welcome to jail?
: 土共在历史书里写的都是事实？
: 你脑袋进水了吧.
: 土共讲没有讲刘少奇斗死了多少人？
| | | q******j
发帖数: 577 | 61 That is for you.
发信人: WLRK (Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz), 信区: ChinaNews
标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 5 20:03:38 2010, 美东)
Blah blah blah, Whatever. but the joke is on you. | q******j
发帖数: 577 | 62 Another good execuse. I only talk about negatives because ... hey ... you
can go figure out the postives by yourself. That is exactly what the TG
media is doing. Can Yuan teach his students to behave in a different way?
发信人: higator (gator), 信区: ChinaNews
标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 5 19:55:38 2010, 美东)
He did not talk about Mao's achievement. But student, for sure, will learn
these things from a lot of places, like political courses, etc. However,
the student may no | q*c
发帖数: 9453 | 63 这逻辑你还没见过啊，
死亡 1 人 = 死了人 = 死亡 1000 万或者 3000 万
几乎不民主 = 不是完全不民主 = 不完美民主
所以都一样， 只看需要， 哈哈。
但是你给他 4 毛钱就和五毛就很不一样， 呵呵。
【在 c******g 的大作中提到】
: 你大嘴一张就是富裕国家也不能不死人了。
| h*****r
发帖数: 143 | 64 The difference is that TG's media is overwhelming and the Censorship is
everywhere.
Yuan can not and will not block the positive things. However, TG did, and
will block
most of the negatives.
,
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: Another good execuse. I only talk about negatives because ... hey ... you
: can go figure out the postives by yourself. That is exactly what the TG
: media is doing. Can Yuan teach his students to behave in a different way?
: 发信人: higator (gator), 信区: ChinaNews
: 标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 5 19:55:38 2010, 美东)
: He did not talk about Mao's achievement. But student, for sure, will learn
: these things from a lot of places, like political courses, etc. However,
: the student may no
| w**k
发帖数: 1455 | 65 不要和党的贴心小棉袄辩论了，这种人对袁腾飞吹毛求次，鸡蛋里挑骨头，但是对党的
教科书上信口雌皇，避重就轻，歪曲事实却认为还是基本客观公正
【在 h*****r 的大作中提到】
: The difference is that TG's media is overwhelming and the Censorship is
: everywhere.
: Yuan can not and will not block the positive things. However, TG did, and
: will block
: most of the negatives.
:
: ,
| q******j
发帖数: 577 | 66 To me, that is not a good way to teach students. Yes, he may not have the "
POWER or MEANS TO MAKE IT HAPPEN." But his way reflects "HOW TO DO IT." If
he or his students become the decision makers, they would do the same -
demonize the ones they do not like and do not talk about any positives, or
block all the negatives of the ones they like (like what Yuan talked about
Qing Dynasty).
Again, 袁 is a good 愤青, but not a good teacher.
发信人: higator (gator), 信区: ChinaNews
标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现 | W*********7
发帖数: 426 | 67 RE~
将人做阶级划分, 强调阶级斗争, 以"革命"暴力结决矛盾, 套搬达尔文的生物进化学说
建立社会达尔文主义, 一边倒地强调社会的演进论, 这就是唯物史观. 唯物主义和唯物
史观, 只是人类迄今为止形成的哲学政治学社会学的观点和理论之一. 人类现今的科学
知识根本还无法解释大多数的现象, 当然我们的唯物主义者总相信人定胜天, 永远都不
承认人的渺小和有限, 对自然毫无尊重和敬畏, 绝无悔意, 这也是我们的社会会无法无
天的原因吧.
把一种理论和观点作为终极和永恒真理来信奉和宣传, 要求人民也相信历史就是这样演
进的, 更不顾各国国情在现实中生搬硬套甚至无中生有, 以阶级划分和阶级斗争将人分
成三六九等来进行严酷非人的迫害, 滥杀无辜草菅人命, 这就是我们49-78这三十年的
历史, 而余威至今阴魂不散, 最近几年甚至有死灰复燃之势.
【在 h*****r 的大作中提到】
: 首先, 就不应该把 一个老师 和一个政党 拿来相比. 根本不是对等的实体, 有什么可
: 比性呢.
: 袁的言论, 有些是个人观点. 偶尔个别错误能和 一个执政党的错误拿来比较么?
: 我之所以说是系统性的. 是教材中以意识形态的灌输来贯穿整个历史的变迁. 具体而言
: ,就是
: 把整个中国的历史, 描绘成 一个阶级斗争史 和 革命史. 比如, 教材把一切 农民起
: 义 描绘
: 的 无比伟大. 但是, 你知道么? 唐末黄巢农民起义, 火烧长安城, 毁灭了汉唐以来 最
: 为闻名
: 的 文化, 经济, 政治的首都. 明末, 张献忠 屠四川, 整个四川 生灵涂炭, 几乎鸡犬
| q*d
发帖数: 22178 | 68 认错是有的,但是没触及根本,
比如文革的责任都推到江青一伙的头上--这显然不能服众.
文革这样的错误没有进行彻底的清算和反思,
导致今日毛轮横行,竟然为文革叫好的
doing
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: You must have not studied TG's text book well. TG admitted the wrong doing
: of "反右," "大跃进,"文化大革命" .....
: 发信人: higator (gator), 信区: ChinaNews
: 标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 5 14:16:22 2010, 美东)
: TG 啥时候 admitted 了？ admitted了， 还用那个教材， 那不是明知故犯么， 那不
: 是误人子弟么。
| q*d
发帖数: 22178 | 69 同意
么可
而言
民起
来 最
鸡犬
【在 k*****e 的大作中提到】
: mark!
| w**k
发帖数: 1455 | 70 文革都是江清，林彪欺骗毛泽东同志么，
还老是声称反右是对的，只不过是扩大化了，和日本人称南京大屠杀是战争期间的正常行为一样
老毛这种祸国殃民的货色，至今党还把他的死尸贡奉起来
【在 q*d 的大作中提到】
: 认错是有的,但是没触及根本,
: 比如文革的责任都推到江青一伙的头上--这显然不能服众.
: 文革这样的错误没有进行彻底的清算和反思,
: 导致今日毛轮横行,竟然为文革叫好的
:
: doing
| | | q*d
发帖数: 22178 | 71 资产阶级思想启蒙的时候,卢梭的观点也很激进.
许多反袁的都抓住一些细枝末节的错误,无限放大--这才是典型的中国古代文人的思维.
却不敢面对袁所传播的基本精神基本正确.
"
If
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: To me, that is not a good way to teach students. Yes, he may not have the "
: POWER or MEANS TO MAKE IT HAPPEN." But his way reflects "HOW TO DO IT." If
: he or his students become the decision makers, they would do the same -
: demonize the ones they do not like and do not talk about any positives, or
: block all the negatives of the ones they like (like what Yuan talked about
: Qing Dynasty).
: Again, 袁 is a good 愤青, but not a good teacher.
: 发信人: higator (gator), 信区: ChinaNews
: 标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
| R***a
发帖数: 41892 | 72 反右这事得怪286。因为就是他主持的。
所以到现在也不敢说反右是错的。非得留几个不平反来证明当初是正确的。
要是换成林彪江青集团的人搞的，早就全部平反了
常行为一样
【在 w**k 的大作中提到】
: 文革都是江清，林彪欺骗毛泽东同志么，
: 还老是声称反右是对的，只不过是扩大化了，和日本人称南京大屠杀是战争期间的正常行为一样
: 老毛这种祸国殃民的货色，至今党还把他的死尸贡奉起来
| l*****e
发帖数: 89 | 73 那怎么办。。。。全归到太祖头上去？
【在 q*d 的大作中提到】
: 认错是有的,但是没触及根本,
: 比如文革的责任都推到江青一伙的头上--这显然不能服众.
: 文革这样的错误没有进行彻底的清算和反思,
: 导致今日毛轮横行,竟然为文革叫好的
:
: doing
| w**k
发帖数: 1455 | 74 毛轮都赖美国干吗啊，赶紧回国朝拜僵尸多好
维.
【在 q*d 的大作中提到】
: 资产阶级思想启蒙的时候,卢梭的观点也很激进.
: 许多反袁的都抓住一些细枝末节的错误,无限放大--这才是典型的中国古代文人的思维.
: 却不敢面对袁所传播的基本精神基本正确.
:
: "
: If
| q*d
发帖数: 22178 | 75 其实这个事邓的时代不能彻底清算,有他的理由,
因为这可能引发国家和社会的混乱和不稳定.
这都好几十年了,事实就是事实,历史就是历史,
让全国人民面对一部充满谎言的历史--这本身就是不道德的
【在 l*****e 的大作中提到】
: 那怎么办。。。。全归到太祖头上去？
| w**k
发帖数: 1455 | 76 用大量谎言来篡改历史，最终后果只能被全盘否定
【在 q*d 的大作中提到】
: 其实这个事邓的时代不能彻底清算,有他的理由,
: 因为这可能引发国家和社会的混乱和不稳定.
: 这都好几十年了,事实就是事实,历史就是历史,
: 让全国人民面对一部充满谎言的历史--这本身就是不道德的
| q******j
发帖数: 577 | 77 Many 捧袁的也都抓住 one or two views that they like, 无限放大, 神化, 最牛 ..
. try to find any and all excuses for his mistakes or the ways that he needs
to improve ... 这也是典型的中国古代文人的思维.
I don't like 矫枉过正, I don't like the way he is teaching.
发信人: qed (鸟瞰红尘), 信区: ChinaNews
标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 5 21:05:24 2010, 美东)
资产阶级思想启蒙的时候,卢梭的观点也很激进.
许多反袁的都抓住一些细枝末节的错误,无限放大--这才是典型的中国古代文人的思维.
却不敢面对袁所传播的基本精神基本正确. | q*d
发帖数: 22178 | 78 至少袁站在那讲台上那么说是需要勇气的.
骂袁的,没有任何危险.
..
needs
维.
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: Many 捧袁的也都抓住 one or two views that they like, 无限放大, 神化, 最牛 ..
: . try to find any and all excuses for his mistakes or the ways that he needs
: to improve ... 这也是典型的中国古代文人的思维.
: I don't like 矫枉过正, I don't like the way he is teaching.
: 发信人: qed (鸟瞰红尘), 信区: ChinaNews
: 标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 5 21:05:24 2010, 美东)
: 资产阶级思想启蒙的时候,卢梭的观点也很激进.
: 许多反袁的都抓住一些细枝末节的错误,无限放大--这才是典型的中国古代文人的思维.
: 却不敢面对袁所传播的基本精神基本正确.
| h*****r
发帖数: 143 | 79 对当权者文过饰非, 对普通人求全责备, 恐怕才是典型的中国某些古代文人的思维吧.
..
needs
维.
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: Many 捧袁的也都抓住 one or two views that they like, 无限放大, 神化, 最牛 ..
: . try to find any and all excuses for his mistakes or the ways that he needs
: to improve ... 这也是典型的中国古代文人的思维.
: I don't like 矫枉过正, I don't like the way he is teaching.
: 发信人: qed (鸟瞰红尘), 信区: ChinaNews
: 标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 5 21:05:24 2010, 美东)
: 资产阶级思想启蒙的时候,卢梭的观点也很激进.
: 许多反袁的都抓住一些细枝末节的错误,无限放大--这才是典型的中国古代文人的思维.
: 却不敢面对袁所传播的基本精神基本正确.
| d****h
发帖数: 4291 | 80 就算今天抹杀了一个袁腾飞
改天还会有马腾飞
牛腾飞
........
土共歪曲历史，串改教科书，屠杀国民，搞内斗，扶持邪恶.........
这些历史面目总会浮出水面的
蒙住了现在的小孩，蒙不住未来的成人
屁用没有 | | | q******j
发帖数: 577 | 81 Yes, 勇气可嘉 but still got it wrong. China is not lack of 愤青, even those
有勇气的愤青 like Yuan. China needs a huge middleclass that is willing to
act reasonably, willing to objectively balance pros and prons, and willing
to compromise. 斗争哲学, 非黑即白, 妖魔化神化 are the enemies of China's
democracy process.
Young teachers like Yuan are the nation's hope to train the next generation
how to think and act differently. Unfortunately, they are still passing on
非黑即白 in their daily teaching.
发信人: qed (鸟瞰红尘), 信区: C
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: Many 捧袁的也都抓住 one or two views that they like, 无限放大, 神化, 最牛 ..
: . try to find any and all excuses for his mistakes or the ways that he needs
: to improve ... 这也是典型的中国古代文人的思维.
: I don't like 矫枉过正, I don't like the way he is teaching.
: 发信人: qed (鸟瞰红尘), 信区: ChinaNews
: 标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 5 21:05:24 2010, 美东)
: 资产阶级思想启蒙的时候,卢梭的观点也很激进.
: 许多反袁的都抓住一些细枝末节的错误,无限放大--这才是典型的中国古代文人的思维.
: 却不敢面对袁所传播的基本精神基本正确.
| q******j
发帖数: 577 | 82 就事论事, I don't think 矫枉过正 should be encouraged as a way of teaching
in classroom.
发信人: higator (gator), 信区: ChinaNews
标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 5 21:31:37 2010, 美东)
对当权者文过饰非, 对普通人求全责备, 恐怕才是典型的中国某些古代文人的思维吧.
. try to find any and all excuses for his mistakes or the ways that he needs
to improve ... 这也是典型的中国古代文人的思维.
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: Many 捧袁的也都抓住 one or two views that they like, 无限放大, 神化, 最牛 ..
: . try to find any and all excuses for his mistakes or the ways that he needs
: to improve ... 这也是典型的中国古代文人的思维.
: I don't like 矫枉过正, I don't like the way he is teaching.
: 发信人: qed (鸟瞰红尘), 信区: ChinaNews
: 标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 5 21:05:24 2010, 美东)
: 资产阶级思想启蒙的时候,卢梭的观点也很激进.
: 许多反袁的都抓住一些细枝末节的错误,无限放大--这才是典型的中国古代文人的思维.
: 却不敢面对袁所传播的基本精神基本正确.
| m*******t
发帖数: 1060 | 83 @qlmjqlmj: 支持你的观点及理性的辩论。 很高兴能在MITBB上看到这样的观点。
发信人: qlmjqlmj (qqlljjmm), 信区: ChinaNews
标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 5 20:32:40 2010, 美东)
To me, that is not a good way to teach students. Yes, he may not have the "
POWER or MEANS TO MAKE IT HAPPEN." But his way reflects "HOW TO DO IT." If
he or his students become the decision makers, they would do the same -
demonize the ones they do not like and do not talk about any positives, or
block all the negatives of the ones they l | m*d
发帖数: 7658 | 84 反右运动是毛跟刘邓一起执行的，
邓不可能否定自己
常行为一样
【在 w**k 的大作中提到】
: 文革都是江清，林彪欺骗毛泽东同志么，
: 还老是声称反右是对的，只不过是扩大化了，和日本人称南京大屠杀是战争期间的正常行为一样
: 老毛这种祸国殃民的货色，至今党还把他的死尸贡奉起来
| d***n
发帖数: 902 | 85 YTF讲反右最有意思，55万人到现在还有5人未平反，反右没错，就是扩大化了11万倍而
已，呵呵
【在 m*d 的大作中提到】
: 反右运动是毛跟刘邓一起执行的，
: 邓不可能否定自己
:
: 常行为一样
| h*****r
发帖数: 143 | 86 其实,那些貌似惊人的言论， 很多只是常识而已。 如果常识普及了， 这样的言论又有
什么值得大惊小怪的呢？ 这个神奇的国度， 谎言欺骗没人惊怪。 说点常识反而惊诧
莫名， 何也？
其实，中国的小孩的确很可怜， 小时候被逼着学些谎言。 讽刺的是，又要大力提倡诚
信。 你这不是要别人人格分裂么？
学点别的观点，用另一个视角看事物， 没什么不好。 免得坐井观天，无知无畏。 比
如， 被中共大力褒扬的巴黎公社，其实在西方世界评价不高。 是属于一场革命理念不
清楚，充满血腥暴力的无政府暴动。这种充满争议的话题，本来少说为妙。 可是， 曾
有个官员， 跑到巴黎在一个欢迎宴会上 谈什么巴黎人民有光荣的革命传统， 巴黎公
社如何如何。。。 还以为在拍巴黎人民的马屁， 怎知拍到了马蹄上面。
needs
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: 就事论事, I don't think 矫枉过正 should be encouraged as a way of teaching
: in classroom.
: 发信人: higator (gator), 信区: ChinaNews
: 标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 5 21:31:37 2010, 美东)
: 对当权者文过饰非, 对普通人求全责备, 恐怕才是典型的中国某些古代文人的思维吧.
:
: . try to find any and all excuses for his mistakes or the ways that he needs
: to improve ... 这也是典型的中国古代文人的思维.
| U*****e
发帖数: 2882 | 87 有人说要走一大步，结果半天没动静。
有人终于走了一小步，立马被人倒了一头凉水，吐了一身吐沫。
看不出这种酱缸文化能培养出你说的那种人。
those
to
willing
generation
passing on
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: Yes, 勇气可嘉 but still got it wrong. China is not lack of 愤青, even those
: 有勇气的愤青 like Yuan. China needs a huge middleclass that is willing to
: act reasonably, willing to objectively balance pros and prons, and willing
: to compromise. 斗争哲学, 非黑即白, 妖魔化神化 are the enemies of China's
: democracy process.
: Young teachers like Yuan are the nation's hope to train the next generation
: how to think and act differently. Unfortunately, they are still passing on
: 非黑即白 in their daily teaching.
: 发信人: qed (鸟瞰红尘), 信区: C
| w**k
发帖数: 1455 | 88 你最好把因果搞清楚
如果不是党搞一言堂，搞一党专政，搞的教科书谎话连篇，别人能如此反感么? 政府信
誉能如此之低么?
很奇怪啊，你老要别人要balance，要compromise，可是党允许compromise么? 党允许
balance么? 党允许自由讨论党犯的严重错误么? 党允许别人编教科书么?
those
to
generation
on
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: Yes, 勇气可嘉 but still got it wrong. China is not lack of 愤青, even those
: 有勇气的愤青 like Yuan. China needs a huge middleclass that is willing to
: act reasonably, willing to objectively balance pros and prons, and willing
: to compromise. 斗争哲学, 非黑即白, 妖魔化神化 are the enemies of China's
: democracy process.
: Young teachers like Yuan are the nation's hope to train the next generation
: how to think and act differently. Unfortunately, they are still passing on
: 非黑即白 in their daily teaching.
: 发信人: qed (鸟瞰红尘), 信区: C
| q******j
发帖数: 577 | 89 Don't assume Yuan's step is in the right direction.
Don't assume there aren't any better way to step out that first step.
Teaching students to think through historical events, analyze what went
wrong, what did great, and try to give an objective evaluation to historical
characters may not be that easy as it sounds like but it is definitely
history teacher's responsibility.
Yuan is good at telling stories which most students like to hear. His class
is not boring. That is the first and the mos | l*****8
发帖数: 16949 | 90 TG和他的走狗们倒打一耙的本领不小啊。明明自己是愤青，厚着脸皮把帽子扣人家头上
去了。
我觉得袁对愤青的归纳很到位：网络义和团,一无知,二爱国,三轻生。 | | | d***n
发帖数: 902 | 91 有些五毛逼无耻到家，硬是敢给老将们扣五毛的帽子
【在 l*****8 的大作中提到】
: TG和他的走狗们倒打一耙的本领不小啊。明明自己是愤青，厚着脸皮把帽子扣人家头上
: 去了。
: 我觉得袁对愤青的归纳很到位：网络义和团,一无知,二爱国,三轻生。
| W*********7
发帖数: 426 | 92 "Still got it wrong, 斗争哲学, 非黑即白, 妖魔化神化", 这是你的观点, 别人认为
是纠错和恢复一些历史的真实. 别人有别人的观点, 你有你的观点, 那么求同存异怎么
样? 和你观点相左的就一定错了? 再说下去就有点让我想起那个在军事版和三蕃版, 针
对波兰总统坠机一事, 对波兰和波兰人说个没完的强迫症MM了.
BTW, 斗争哲学, 非黑即白, 妖魔化神化, 这是老毛的一贯作风和方法吧, 怎么指出他
曾犯下的大错, 就成非黑即白了呢? 你的思维, 五毛可以借鉴.
those
to
generation
on
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: Yes, 勇气可嘉 but still got it wrong. China is not lack of 愤青, even those
: 有勇气的愤青 like Yuan. China needs a huge middleclass that is willing to
: act reasonably, willing to objectively balance pros and prons, and willing
: to compromise. 斗争哲学, 非黑即白, 妖魔化神化 are the enemies of China's
: democracy process.
: Young teachers like Yuan are the nation's hope to train the next generation
: how to think and act differently. Unfortunately, they are still passing on
: 非黑即白 in their daily teaching.
: 发信人: qed (鸟瞰红尘), 信区: C
| w**k
发帖数: 1455 | 93 You are just assuming that what is online is all that he teaches in class.
I doubt that you watched all of his videos online.
But you seem to have no difficulty in concluding he never encourages his
students to think or analyze, just based upon a few snippets of his lectures?
historical
class
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: Don't assume Yuan's step is in the right direction.
: Don't assume there aren't any better way to step out that first step.
: Teaching students to think through historical events, analyze what went
: wrong, what did great, and try to give an objective evaluation to historical
: characters may not be that easy as it sounds like but it is definitely
: history teacher's responsibility.
: Yuan is good at telling stories which most students like to hear. His class
: is not boring. That is the first and the mos
| q******j
发帖数: 577 | 94 Most of his 言论不值得大惊小怪. Those are just some 佐料 to make his class
more interesting. But some of his 言论 went too far. At the most they
could be called 仁者见仁, but definitely not 常识. When touching the
contraversial issues, the better way to teach is to give both sides of the
fact and let the students to reach their own conclusions.
"这种充满争议的话题，本来少说为妙。" Are you suggesting Yuan better shut up
on the contraversial issues?
By the way, even without knowing 西方世界对巴黎公社评价不高, that official
should not cite 巴黎 | W*********7
发帖数: 426 | 95 "But some of his 言论 went too far", 但这里很多人认为没有went too far, 而是
说到点上了, 说到DIANG和毛的痛处了, 怎么办? 这就是观点的不同, 不值得大惊小怪
class
up
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: Most of his 言论不值得大惊小怪. Those are just some 佐料 to make his class
: more interesting. But some of his 言论 went too far. At the most they
: could be called 仁者见仁, but definitely not 常识. When touching the
: contraversial issues, the better way to teach is to give both sides of the
: fact and let the students to reach their own conclusions.
: "这种充满争议的话题，本来少说为妙。" Are you suggesting Yuan better shut up
: on the contraversial issues?
: By the way, even without knowing 西方世界对巴黎公社评价不高, that official
: should not cite 巴黎
| w**k
发帖数: 1455 | 96 文革，反右，大跃进有什么controversial? 难道还要部分肯定? 还有功了?
class
up
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: Most of his 言论不值得大惊小怪. Those are just some 佐料 to make his class
: more interesting. But some of his 言论 went too far. At the most they
: could be called 仁者见仁, but definitely not 常识. When touching the
: contraversial issues, the better way to teach is to give both sides of the
: fact and let the students to reach their own conclusions.
: "这种充满争议的话题，本来少说为妙。" Are you suggesting Yuan better shut up
: on the contraversial issues?
: By the way, even without knowing 西方世界对巴黎公社评价不高, that official
: should not cite 巴黎
| q*d
发帖数: 22178 | 97 正确还是错误,不是哪一个人说了算的.
those
to
generation
on
牛
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: Yes, 勇气可嘉 but still got it wrong. China is not lack of 愤青, even those
: 有勇气的愤青 like Yuan. China needs a huge middleclass that is willing to
: act reasonably, willing to objectively balance pros and prons, and willing
: to compromise. 斗争哲学, 非黑即白, 妖魔化神化 are the enemies of China's
: democracy process.
: Young teachers like Yuan are the nation's hope to train the next generation
: how to think and act differently. Unfortunately, they are still passing on
: 非黑即白 in their daily teaching.
: 发信人: qed (鸟瞰红尘), 信区: C
| w**k
发帖数: 1455 | 98 认为什么事情都要一分为二才是搅浑水呢，这世界上有些事情不是都有好坏两面的，比
如反右，完全就是因言获罪，因为发表不同意见，被迫害，甚至到肉体消灭的地步，但
有人非要说这种事情也有好的一面
【在 W*********7 的大作中提到】
: "But some of his 言论 went too far", 但这里很多人认为没有went too far, 而是
: 说到点上了, 说到DIANG和毛的痛处了, 怎么办? 这就是观点的不同, 不值得大惊小怪
:
: class
: up
| U*****e
发帖数: 2882 | 99 有什么人迈第一步的时候能被所有人认为方向是正确的？超人？
你觉得你的方向更高明，那就做出点名堂再说吧。到那时，你再留意那些好为人师的旁
观者，岂不是
另一种境界？
went
historical
definitely
class
him
inspired
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: Don't assume Yuan's step is in the right direction.
: Don't assume there aren't any better way to step out that first step.
: Teaching students to think through historical events, analyze what went
: wrong, what did great, and try to give an objective evaluation to historical
: characters may not be that easy as it sounds like but it is definitely
: history teacher's responsibility.
: Yuan is good at telling stories which most students like to hear. His class
: is not boring. That is the first and the mos
| q******j
发帖数: 577 | 100 After TG is gone, how can the same not-willing-to-compromise people do a
better job?
BTW, don't distinguish TG and people that distinctively. TG has tens of
millions of members. TG officials' quality is directly determined by the so
called "people." Don't imagine after TG is gone, the same so-called "
people" would suddenly know how to act reasonably if they normally fight to
death ideologically. On the other hand, if the young generation knows how
to respect the other and act practically, | | | w**k
发帖数: 1455 | 101 他对袁总是要以最高标准要求，什么都要balance，可是这世界上有这样的人么? 没见
他要求党的教科书也要balance，不要full of lies，他竟然认为党的教科书基本fair
只有言论自由，允许人们自由发表意见，才能达到真正的balance，自己搞一言堂，然
后要求别人都要balance只有被鄙视嘲笑的份了
【在 q*d 的大作中提到】
: 正确还是错误,不是哪一个人说了算的.
:
: those
: to
: generation
: on
: 牛
| W*********7
发帖数: 426 | 102 RE, 我刚才还想这么说来着.
很多还是85后男生女生, 离那个时代很遥远, 从中学的历史教学模式中获益匪浅, 并且
总希望从一大堆错误中试图找点什么, 以证明自己的国家和老毛在那个年代所做的事不
完全是荒谬的, 有时觉得他们为某些政府和个人的所做所为找合理性合法性的急切感比
真理部都强烈.
【在 w**k 的大作中提到】
: 认为什么事情都要一分为二才是搅浑水呢，这世界上有些事情不是都有好坏两面的，比
: 如反右，完全就是因言获罪，因为发表不同意见，被迫害，甚至到肉体消灭的地步，但
: 有人非要说这种事情也有好的一面
| w**k
发帖数: 1455 | 103 sorry, but TG never learns lessons from the history. If you continue to be
uncompromising, in the end there won't be anything left for both sides to
compromise on.
so
to
forward
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: After TG is gone, how can the same not-willing-to-compromise people do a
: better job?
: BTW, don't distinguish TG and people that distinctively. TG has tens of
: millions of members. TG officials' quality is directly determined by the so
: called "people." Don't imagine after TG is gone, the same so-called "
: people" would suddenly know how to act reasonably if they normally fight to
: death ideologically. On the other hand, if the young generation knows how
: to respect the other and act practically,
| W*********7
发帖数: 426 | 104 这段才是全部的真心话. 谎言说了一千遍, 在你那儿真成了真理.
大家洗洗睡吧.
GOOD NIGHT.
so
to
forward
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: After TG is gone, how can the same not-willing-to-compromise people do a
: better job?
: BTW, don't distinguish TG and people that distinctively. TG has tens of
: millions of members. TG officials' quality is directly determined by the so
: called "people." Don't imagine after TG is gone, the same so-called "
: people" would suddenly know how to act reasonably if they normally fight to
: death ideologically. On the other hand, if the young generation knows how
: to respect the other and act practically,
| q******j
发帖数: 577 | 105 Of course we can 求同存异. You can continue to defend Yuan as the 史上最牛
的历史老师 and still argue you are not 神化 Yuan.
BTW, "You're either against us, or with us" also came out the mouth of a US
president. In any country, by any group, 斗争哲学, 非黑即白, 妖魔化神化 are
the enemies of the democracy process. Don't you agree?
发信人: WithYou2007 (secretgarden), 信区: ChinaNews
标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 5 23:57:16 2010, 美东)
"Still got it wrong, 斗争哲学, 非黑即白, 妖魔化神化", 这是你的观点, 别人认为
是纠错和恢复一些历史的真实. 别人有别人 | q*d
发帖数: 22178 | 106 这种中英文夹杂的,看得人真累
US
are
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: Of course we can 求同存异. You can continue to defend Yuan as the 史上最牛
: 的历史老师 and still argue you are not 神化 Yuan.
: BTW, "You're either against us, or with us" also came out the mouth of a US
: president. In any country, by any group, 斗争哲学, 非黑即白, 妖魔化神化 are
: the enemies of the democracy process. Don't you agree?
: 发信人: WithYou2007 (secretgarden), 信区: ChinaNews
: 标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 5 23:57:16 2010, 美东)
: "Still got it wrong, 斗争哲学, 非黑即白, 妖魔化神化", 这是你的观点, 别人认为
: 是纠错和恢复一些历史的真实. 别人有别人
| w**k
发帖数: 1455 | 107 There is nothing wrong with what Bush said. On the issue of terrorism,
compromise is impossible. There is no middle ground between terrorists and
civilized societies
US
are
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: Of course we can 求同存异. You can continue to defend Yuan as the 史上最牛
: 的历史老师 and still argue you are not 神化 Yuan.
: BTW, "You're either against us, or with us" also came out the mouth of a US
: president. In any country, by any group, 斗争哲学, 非黑即白, 妖魔化神化 are
: the enemies of the democracy process. Don't you agree?
: 发信人: WithYou2007 (secretgarden), 信区: ChinaNews
: 标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 5 23:57:16 2010, 美东)
: "Still got it wrong, 斗争哲学, 非黑即白, 妖魔化神化", 这是你的观点, 别人认为
: 是纠错和恢复一些历史的真实. 别人有别人
| q******j
发帖数: 577 | 108 I certainly did not watch all Yuan's videos (I do not even know how to
quantify "all" since he is alive and post more videos online). But from
what I have seen, he is basically 说教 and 灌输. He just made his classes
more interesting by adding more 口语化的 historical stories. After all, he
is teaching high school classes to prepare 高考. I don't want to ask him
for too much. At least, he is still much better than a lot teachers who can
only read what is in the text books. But the point is, do not pr | w**k
发帖数: 1455 | 109 在有些根本问题上能不能明辨是非是考验一个人道德的底线，如果认为大跃进为了赶英
超美饿死上千万人还有可取之处，那只用不明是非恐怕很难解释
【在 W*********7 的大作中提到】
: RE, 我刚才还想这么说来着.
: 很多还是85后男生女生, 离那个时代很遥远, 从中学的历史教学模式中获益匪浅, 并且
: 总希望从一大堆错误中试图找点什么, 以证明自己的国家和老毛在那个年代所做的事不
: 完全是荒谬的, 有时觉得他们为某些政府和个人的所做所为找合理性合法性的急切感比
: 真理部都强烈.
| q******j
发帖数: 577 | 110 To give Mao an objectively evaluation is controversial. He made a lot of
mistakes but he also did a lot of great things. Qingshihuang is also a
contraversial firgure. Demonize Mao or holifing Mao are both wrong. As LZ
acknowledged, Yuan seemed to only emphasize the negative side of Mao while
neglecting his postive side. For adults who have broader experiences and
deeper understanding of the whole picture, that is not a big issue. But for
high school kids, a serious responsible teacher who | | | q******j
发帖数: 577 | 111 I agree. 常识 or not is also not determined by any individual.
发信人: qed (鸟瞰红尘), 信区: ChinaNews
标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Thu May 6 00:09:40 2010, 美东)
正确还是错误,不是哪一个人说了算的.
those: 有勇气的愤青 like Yuan. China needs a huge middleclass that is
willing to act reasonably, willing to objectively balance pros and prons,
and willing to compromise. 斗争哲学, 非黑即白, 妖魔化神化 are the enemies
of China's democracy process.
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: Yes, 勇气可嘉 but still got it wrong. China is not lack of 愤青, even those
: 有勇气的愤青 like Yuan. China needs a huge middleclass that is willing to
: act reasonably, willing to objectively balance pros and prons, and willing
: to compromise. 斗争哲学, 非黑即白, 妖魔化神化 are the enemies of China's
: democracy process.
: Young teachers like Yuan are the nation's hope to train the next generation
: how to think and act differently. Unfortunately, they are still passing on
: 非黑即白 in their daily teaching.
: 发信人: qed (鸟瞰红尘), 信区: C
| h*****r
发帖数: 143 | 112 Adolf Hitler did something good for German people as well. Maybe you think
everything
is controversial.
LZ
for
picture
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: To give Mao an objectively evaluation is controversial. He made a lot of
: mistakes but he also did a lot of great things. Qingshihuang is also a
: contraversial firgure. Demonize Mao or holifing Mao are both wrong. As LZ
: acknowledged, Yuan seemed to only emphasize the negative side of Mao while
: neglecting his postive side. For adults who have broader experiences and
: deeper understanding of the whole picture, that is not a big issue. But for
: high school kids, a serious responsible teacher who
| d******e
发帖数: 7844 | 113 网络愤青不过是新时代的红卫兵罢了。
我党现在应当巴不得网络上全是愤青呢，转移注意力啊。
【在 l*****8 的大作中提到】
: TG和他的走狗们倒打一耙的本领不小啊。明明自己是愤青，厚着脸皮把帽子扣人家头上
: 去了。
: 我觉得袁对愤青的归纳很到位：网络义和团,一无知,二爱国,三轻生。
| q******j
发帖数: 577 | 114 I am not saying we should 各打五十大板 for everything. For individual event
and individual character, we all need to do thourough analysis. But that
is not to say, we should 非黑即白.
No matter 反右 like what TG did in the 50's or 反左 like what McCarthy did
in the roughly same period, such ideological movements are definitely wrong
and inhuman. Freedom of speech should be promoted and not compressed. TG
made some progress in the right direction after the Culture Revolution but
still has a long way to cat | e*n
发帖数: 1511 | 115 需要先把人民叫醒。然后再对历史进行仔细分析。
event
wrong
even
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: I am not saying we should 各打五十大板 for everything. For individual event
: and individual character, we all need to do thourough analysis. But that
: is not to say, we should 非黑即白.
: No matter 反右 like what TG did in the 50's or 反左 like what McCarthy did
: in the roughly same period, such ideological movements are definitely wrong
: and inhuman. Freedom of speech should be promoted and not compressed. TG
: made some progress in the right direction after the Culture Revolution but
: still has a long way to cat
| d***n
发帖数: 902 | 116 累你还看，我根本就直接略过
【在 q*d 的大作中提到】
: 这种中英文夹杂的,看得人真累
:
: US
: are
| q******j
发帖数: 577 | 117 I don't think my ask is a high standard for Yuan. BTW, it is those Yuan
fans who claim he is THE MOST NIU teacher. I just used an average teacher
standard to ask him to give a balanced view of histry to his students. If
he omits something important, is he doing in the SAME way as TG is doing?
Then why appraise him so much? Only because he is saying a different view?
Additionally, I still believe individuals by making changes to their own
hehaviors can contribute to a bigger change in the so | q******j
发帖数: 577 | 118 Your conclusion is too arbitrary. If TG does not learn lessons from history
, especially its own history, it cannot survive and defeat GMD, it also
cannot survive today and lead China with 30 plus years of high speed growth
.
发信人: WLRK (Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz), 信区: ChinaNews
标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Thu May 6 00:23:01 2010, 美东)
sorry, but TG never learns lessons from the history. If you continue to be
uncompromising, in the end there won't be anything left for both s | q******j
发帖数: 577 | 119 Compromise is not impossible, even in terms of terrorism. In reality, the
US made a lot of compromises with terrorists, some are out of their own will
, some are forced. They tolerate some terrorists (such as those against
the other countries). They paid ramsom to get hostages back. Obama is
pushing Israel (and actually some articles say the majority of Israelies
want) to negotiate with Hamas.
One of Marxism's mistakes is that he thought the tension and conflict
between the working class an | q******j
发帖数: 577 | 120 I know you are gonna use this.
Let us put it in this way, for any historical event or character (no matter
how "contraversial" or "not contraversial" such event or character is), a
history teacher should do his best to tell his students the whole picture.
Yes, Hitler might indeed have done something good for German people. Just
tell the students and let them figure out what kind a person he is and what
kind of historical effect he made to human's history.
发信人: higator (gator), 信区: ChinaNews
标 | | | q******j
发帖数: 577 | 121 Okay, everyone. Thanks for giving me this opportunity to express my
opinions. Have a good night. | k*******n
发帖数: 8891 | | w*********e
发帖数: 6093 | 123 这个说到点子上了。
those
to
generation
on
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: Yes, 勇气可嘉 but still got it wrong. China is not lack of 愤青, even those
: 有勇气的愤青 like Yuan. China needs a huge middleclass that is willing to
: act reasonably, willing to objectively balance pros and prons, and willing
: to compromise. 斗争哲学, 非黑即白, 妖魔化神化 are the enemies of China's
: democracy process.
: Young teachers like Yuan are the nation's hope to train the next generation
: how to think and act differently. Unfortunately, they are still passing on
: 非黑即白 in their daily teaching.
: 发信人: qed (鸟瞰红尘), 信区: C
| w*********e
发帖数: 6093 | 124 自以为懂民主爱民主的老将们不过是屁股决定脑袋的另一边而已。 | x****h
发帖数: 348 | 125 什么叫扭曲，什么叫不扭曲？历史是两部分，历史事实加历史评价，两者千万不可混淆
。以你们反扭曲的激愤心
态，恐怕比党的私货还多。我们的问题是历史评价单元化，不要乱放扭曲的炮
【在 w**k 的大作中提到】
: 我觉得他讲课很好，也很有逻辑，到是中国的历史教科书，被扭曲的相当厉害，就是秽
: 史，垃圾，党的私货太多
| W*********7
发帖数: 426 | 126 Unfortunately we do not think he did any so called "great things". You asked
too little from a so called "great leader" but too much from an average
teacher.
LZ
for
picture
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: To give Mao an objectively evaluation is controversial. He made a lot of
: mistakes but he also did a lot of great things. Qingshihuang is also a
: contraversial firgure. Demonize Mao or holifing Mao are both wrong. As LZ
: acknowledged, Yuan seemed to only emphasize the negative side of Mao while
: neglecting his postive side. For adults who have broader experiences and
: deeper understanding of the whole picture, that is not a big issue. But for
: high school kids, a serious responsible teacher who
| W*********7
发帖数: 426 | 127 Marxism is just one of those theories and human society develops without
manmade theories. I am not sure why you still hold these opinions about
ranking and distinguishing people by their socio-economic status, which is
definitely a discrimination indeed.
Paying ransom to get back hostage is definitely the right way to treat
people in a humane way. On the other hand, please do not bring in USA for
your argument, Mao and GCP's huge mistakes have little to do with USA. USA
still owns the best ever
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: Compromise is not impossible, even in terms of terrorism. In reality, the
: US made a lot of compromises with terrorists, some are out of their own will
: , some are forced. They tolerate some terrorists (such as those against
: the other countries). They paid ramsom to get hostages back. Obama is
: pushing Israel (and actually some articles say the majority of Israelies
: want) to negotiate with Hamas.
: One of Marxism's mistakes is that he thought the tension and conflict
: between the working class an
| w**k
发帖数: 1455 | 128 我说的扭曲就是half truth，避重就轻
对文革，大跃进，反右等党的一系列严重的犯罪行为，以及毛本人无法无天的恶行，根
本就没有从事实上客观的描述过，更不用说评论了
【在 x****h 的大作中提到】
: 什么叫扭曲，什么叫不扭曲？历史是两部分，历史事实加历史评价，两者千万不可混淆
: 。以你们反扭曲的激愤心
: 态，恐怕比党的私货还多。我们的问题是历史评价单元化，不要乱放扭曲的炮
| W*********7
发帖数: 426 | 129 Let us bet another 30 years:) Who else would not learn from its past if TG
does?
history
growth
be
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: Your conclusion is too arbitrary. If TG does not learn lessons from history
: , especially its own history, it cannot survive and defeat GMD, it also
: cannot survive today and lead China with 30 plus years of high speed growth
: .
: 发信人: WLRK (Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz), 信区: ChinaNews
: 标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Thu May 6 00:23:01 2010, 美东)
: sorry, but TG never learns lessons from the history. If you continue to be
: uncompromising, in the end there won't be anything left for both s
| w**k
发帖数: 1455 | 130 I don't understand your logic.
I was just pointing out if TG continues to defer the necessary political
reform, in the end, itself will lose any credibility and no one will be
willing to compromise with it.
Whether TG was good at civil war or whether the economy grows has nothing to
do with my argument. China is not the only country that has experienced
fast economic growth, but that cannot be used as an excuse for denying the
necessary political reform.
history
growth
be
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: Your conclusion is too arbitrary. If TG does not learn lessons from history
: , especially its own history, it cannot survive and defeat GMD, it also
: cannot survive today and lead China with 30 plus years of high speed growth
: .
: 发信人: WLRK (Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz), 信区: ChinaNews
: 标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Thu May 6 00:23:01 2010, 美东)
: sorry, but TG never learns lessons from the history. If you continue to be
: uncompromising, in the end there won't be anything left for both s
| | | W*********7
发帖数: 426 | 131 So you admit the truth that the only person which could compete with Mao is
Hitler! LOL.
A big picture is about the whole view, that is what Yuan brings up about Mao
. Do you think Hitler and Mao are in general a positive figure?
Unfortunately many peopel do not think so. What Mao and Hitler did was all
about leading a nation to a totally wrong direction.
matter
what
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: I know you are gonna use this.
: Let us put it in this way, for any historical event or character (no matter
: how "contraversial" or "not contraversial" such event or character is), a
: history teacher should do his best to tell his students the whole picture.
: Yes, Hitler might indeed have done something good for German people. Just
: tell the students and let them figure out what kind a person he is and what
: kind of historical effect he made to human's history.
: 发信人: higator (gator), 信区: ChinaNews
: 标
| w**k
发帖数: 1455 | 132 Nobody is saying Yuan should be immune from criticism. But a lot of
criticism is clearly politically motivated and directed at him personally.
can
those
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: I certainly did not watch all Yuan's videos (I do not even know how to
: quantify "all" since he is alive and post more videos online). But from
: what I have seen, he is basically 说教 and 灌输. He just made his classes
: more interesting by adding more 口语化的 historical stories. After all, he
: is teaching high school classes to prepare 高考. I don't want to ask him
: for too much. At least, he is still much better than a lot teachers who can
: only read what is in the text books. But the point is, do not pr
| W*********7
发帖数: 426 | 133 To start from scratch could be faster:) LOL. We just do not unerstand how
come after 30 years of so called China reconstruction, we still had to start
from scratch? And so many people (up till now) still had problem getting
enough food. This is so called the great things accomplished by Mao? What a joke. Growth in China means richer government officers only and demolishing citizen's houses for GDP growth.
to
【在 w**k 的大作中提到】
: I don't understand your logic.
: I was just pointing out if TG continues to defer the necessary political
: reform, in the end, itself will lose any credibility and no one will be
: willing to compromise with it.
: Whether TG was good at civil war or whether the economy grows has nothing to
: do with my argument. China is not the only country that has experienced
: fast economic growth, but that cannot be used as an excuse for denying the
: necessary political reform.
:
: history
| w**k
发帖数: 1455 | 134 A lot people do not realize economic growth and wealth distribution are two
different problems.
start
【在 W*********7 的大作中提到】
: To start from scratch could be faster:) LOL. We just do not unerstand how
: come after 30 years of so called China reconstruction, we still had to start
: from scratch? And so many people (up till now) still had problem getting
: enough food. This is so called the great things accomplished by Mao? What a joke. Growth in China means richer government officers only and demolishing citizen's houses for GDP growth.
:
: to
| v****s
发帖数: 1112 | 135 还原历史真相，说的简单，党国的方针路线往哪里搁？红朝发家史本来就不光彩，非正
统。不过现在发展的还不算太差。
【在 h*****r 的大作中提到】
: 历史不是随意涂抹而为政治服务的工具。 历史最基本的原则是真实。
: 春秋战国时期，齐国大夫崔杼弑齐庄公。 “齐国太史公如实记载了这件事，崔杼心怒
: ，杀了太史。太史的二个弟弟也如实记载，都被崔杼杀了。崔杼告诉太史第三个弟弟说
: “你三个哥哥都死了，你难道不怕死吗？你还是按我的要求：把庄公之死写成得暴病而
: 死来写吧”，太史弟弟正色回答“据事直书，是史官的职责，失职求生，不如去死。你
: 做的这件事，迟早会被大家知道的，我即使不写，也掩盖不了你的罪责，反而成为千古
: 笑柄”。崔杼无话可说，只得放了他。太史弟弟走出来，正遇到南史公执简而来，南史
: 公以为他也被杀了，是来继续实写这事的。
: 如此前赴后继，真千古绝唱！”
: 古代的史官的精神，就是一种威武不能屈，富贵不能淫的精神。 记录的历史，以真实
| W*********7
发帖数: 426 | 136 How are you in Germany, Miss 女儿红? :) I think I finally tell out who you are from your words.
修身、齐家、治国、平天下, that is all about moral standards. People are
encouraged to possess higher moral standards and marale, but could we expect
the government and its officers run their business on their own moral
standards? What China needs is a political reform, bringing in a better
system. Please note a political reform is not revolution, please do not be
scared of. You seem to worry more than those Chinese
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: I don't think my ask is a high standard for Yuan. BTW, it is those Yuan
: fans who claim he is THE MOST NIU teacher. I just used an average teacher
: standard to ask him to give a balanced view of histry to his students. If
: he omits something important, is he doing in the SAME way as TG is doing?
: Then why appraise him so much? Only because he is saying a different view?
: Additionally, I still believe individuals by making changes to their own
: hehaviors can contribute to a bigger change in the so
| x***n
发帖数: 5127 | 137 听过袁腾飞讲的《北宋风云》，没什么深度。他骂土共的那些言论也没什么深度，基本上属于过过嘴瘾
泄愤型的，顶多能用来培养文革造反小将。没有深度的历史教育是没法避免重蹈覆辙的，只能添乱。
至于他讲的那些东西什么我看一时半会也翻不了案。这个只有中国的国家安全提升到一个相当的高度，
政府和百姓也相当地相互宽容的时候才行。否则没有玩翻案的资本。 | W*********7
发帖数: 426 | 138 Come on, nobody would defend Yuan to be the most Niu teacher, he just speaks
out for many people, and this hurts some people including you. All I can
tell is you are defending Mao, a terrorist, man slaughter and dictator that
only Hitler and nowadays Kim Jong II could compete with. Probably you are
the only few people who tell out Yuan has 斗争哲学, to us, he just tells the
truth, has a good sense of humor, and pretty mild indeed. We have come
across more harsh critism of Mao in China.
What is wrong
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: Of course we can 求同存异. You can continue to defend Yuan as the 史上最牛
: 的历史老师 and still argue you are not 神化 Yuan.
: BTW, "You're either against us, or with us" also came out the mouth of a US
: president. In any country, by any group, 斗争哲学, 非黑即白, 妖魔化神化 are
: the enemies of the democracy process. Don't you agree?
: 发信人: WithYou2007 (secretgarden), 信区: ChinaNews
: 标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 5 23:57:16 2010, 美东)
: "Still got it wrong, 斗争哲学, 非黑即白, 妖魔化神化", 这是你的观点, 别人认为
: 是纠错和恢复一些历史的真实. 别人有别人
| h****s
发帖数: 15 | 139 有位中学同学在大学教历史， 研究古代史基本上受限制很少， 到了近代史就要加倍小
心， 现代史简直就是雷区，49年后的历史实在太不堪，TG自己都无法面对， 因为年代
近， 史料档案详实，但按史料搞研究， 出来的成果肯定触雷，搞假的东西， 许多人
良心上过不去。此公正准备通过考博转行。
【在 c******9 的大作中提到】
: 曾经以为自己学的历史是真实的，鄙视日本人篡改历史教科书。后来渐渐清醒了，再也
: 不相信自己学的历史了，再也不敢鄙视别人了。
: 袁腾飞是个敢说真话的老师，很难得。但有时候言辞过于刻薄，作为老师，这一点需要
: 改进。
| q******j
发帖数: 577 | 140 Maybe I miss something, but you said "sorry, but TG never learns lessons
from the history." You did not even try to limit it to TG never learns
lessons from its political reform history. And even if you made that
qualification, it is still too arbitrary. TG has ended the culture
revolution, TG has stopped political movements, TG has stopped ideological
disputes, TG has lossened its control over freedom of speech (although under
Hu's administration, there are some setbacks), TG has scaled back | | | w**k
发帖数: 1455 | 141 lol
Who am I to consider TG my opponent???? lol
under
party
are
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: Maybe I miss something, but you said "sorry, but TG never learns lessons
: from the history." You did not even try to limit it to TG never learns
: lessons from its political reform history. And even if you made that
: qualification, it is still too arbitrary. TG has ended the culture
: revolution, TG has stopped political movements, TG has stopped ideological
: disputes, TG has lossened its control over freedom of speech (although under
: Hu's administration, there are some setbacks), TG has scaled back
| x****h
发帖数: 348 | 142 希特勒错在杀犹。败在攻伐苏联。注意失败与错误的区别。退一步说，政策的失败不是
罪过。毛泽东何败之有，
何错之有（可商讨）？两人皆雄才，除此之外，无可比较。至于毛是否正面，外人的观
点不文一钱。你难道还嫌
小平扭曲得不够吗。【 在 WithYou2007 (secretgarden) 的大作中提到: 】
is
Mao | s*******e
发帖数: 3077 | 143 毛败就败在把自己个搞成僵尸到现在还不能入土为安
【在 x****h 的大作中提到】
: 希特勒错在杀犹。败在攻伐苏联。注意失败与错误的区别。退一步说，政策的失败不是
: 罪过。毛泽东何败之有，
: 何错之有（可商讨）？两人皆雄才，除此之外，无可比较。至于毛是否正面，外人的观
: 点不文一钱。你难道还嫌
: 小平扭曲得不够吗。【 在 WithYou2007 (secretgarden) 的大作中提到: 】
: is
: Mao
| x****h
发帖数: 348 | 144 这个不能怪老毛，要怪小邓，是他不让你反扭曲的。你何必谦虚地说half truth,直说
completely wrong就完了吗。
我非常赞成对建国后的事实进行客观描述，至于是否罪过，更别提严重或无法无天，不
要妄为先行扭曲，徒增
耻笑而已。一点现代法治精神都没有的说。
【在 w**k 的大作中提到】
: 我说的扭曲就是half truth，避重就轻
: 对文革，大跃进，反右等党的一系列严重的犯罪行为，以及毛本人无法无天的恶行，根
: 本就没有从事实上客观的描述过，更不用说评论了
| s*******e
发帖数: 3077 | 145 和毛提现代法治就有点搞笑了
丫一句话就千万右派被打倒，再一句千万青年被发配
这些东西翻出来毛轮要抓狂的
【在 x****h 的大作中提到】
: 这个不能怪老毛，要怪小邓，是他不让你反扭曲的。你何必谦虚地说half truth,直说
: completely wrong就完了吗。
: 我非常赞成对建国后的事实进行客观描述，至于是否罪过，更别提严重或无法无天，不
: 要妄为先行扭曲，徒增
: 耻笑而已。一点现代法治精神都没有的说。
| w**k
发帖数: 1455 | 146 毛自己说他是无法无天，要造反，造反有理，他大嘴一张，上百万人就被打倒了，他说
彭德怀反党，彭马上就被打倒了，说刘少奇是资产阶级司令部，刘马上就被迫害致死了
。 说他无法无天怎么就违反法制精神了呢? 什么地方涉及司法程序了? 评论毛的恶
行难道还要经过法院???
【在 x****h 的大作中提到】
: 这个不能怪老毛，要怪小邓，是他不让你反扭曲的。你何必谦虚地说half truth,直说
: completely wrong就完了吗。
: 我非常赞成对建国后的事实进行客观描述，至于是否罪过，更别提严重或无法无天，不
: 要妄为先行扭曲，徒增
: 耻笑而已。一点现代法治精神都没有的说。
| W*********7
发帖数: 426 | 147 "希特勒错在杀犹。败在攻伐苏联。注意失败与错误的区别。退一步说，政策的失败不是
你说人道和人性了. 象那个诗人写文川地震的死者, 死在党的领导下, 做鬼也幸福啊.
邓和当时的政府全面否定了文革, 但对毛, 还鉴于当时政坛里的极左势力, 大家的
思维贯势, 和毛树立起的疯狂个人崇拜, 说了三七开,这样的评价在当时很多人看来都觉得太客气, 您还觉得他扭曲事实? 在之后邓和政府就几乎不再提及毛的过失,但邓说过, 让以后的时间去说明(大意). 但这种不提的处理方式, 也是让一些人对文革和毛产生幻觉的原因. 您要是觉得三七开都不够, 你倒恐怕真是在扭曲了. 让经历了当时的农民和上山下乡的知识青年告诉你, 三七开都太客气. 我亲戚里的知识青年说, 70年代上半叶毛还在世的时候, 他们之间私下就管毛叫死老毛, 想想他们是怎样被毛忽悠长大的"幸福"一代, 但是在那样的言论控制之下, 都能有这样激烈的情绪表示, 说明了什么? | a********e
发帖数: 5251 | 148 So true!
two
【在 w**k 的大作中提到】
: A lot people do not realize economic growth and wealth distribution are two
: different problems.
:
: start
| m****o
发帖数: 837 | 149 Well said!
【在 h*****r 的大作中提到】
: 首先, 就不应该把 一个老师 和一个政党 拿来相比. 根本不是对等的实体, 有什么可
: 比性呢.
: 袁的言论, 有些是个人观点. 偶尔个别错误能和 一个执政党的错误拿来比较么?
: 我之所以说是系统性的. 是教材中以意识形态的灌输来贯穿整个历史的变迁. 具体而言
: ,就是
: 把整个中国的历史, 描绘成 一个阶级斗争史 和 革命史. 比如, 教材把一切 农民起
: 义 描绘
: 的 无比伟大. 但是, 你知道么? 唐末黄巢农民起义, 火烧长安城, 毁灭了汉唐以来 最
: 为闻名
: 的 文化, 经济, 政治的首都. 明末, 张献忠 屠四川, 整个四川 生灵涂炭, 几乎鸡犬
| d**********n
发帖数: 2031 | 150 挺有想法的老师,我觉得老师就应该把这种思考方式传递给学生
带有偏见的历史书不学也罢
【在 W****n 的大作中提到】
: 老衲这几天也一直在看，非常好的老师。
: 他好在传递了一种理性的思想方法，无论他百般嬉笑怒骂，在大方向上他的言论都是基
: 本严格基于目前所能获得的史实经过独立思考后得出的结论，论从史出，而不是由着自
: 己的性子和好恶乱放厥辞。
: 这种独立思考能力才是广大国民最最最或缺的。
: 老衲认为全体中国人都需要看看他的课，而不仅仅是这点网民儿童。
| | | h*****r
发帖数: 143 | 151 高中生也差不多16 到 18岁 左右， 也不是毫无判断力的 kids.
自古少年英雄不在少数， 甘罗12岁拜相， 康熙16岁除鳌拜，霍去病 未满18岁 封骠姚
校尉 出击漠北， 斩敌2000余，封冠军候。 现代的高中生， 差不多的年龄， 听点不
同观点而以， 又有何不可？
如若真是对于小学生， 袁这么讲课， 的确有值得商榷的地方。（不幸的是， 意识形
态的灌输从小学实际就开始了。从小就要佩戴烈士鲜血染红的红领巾。不知道你对此是
否有意见。）
对于高中生， 这样思考就有点多虑了。
LZ
for
picture
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: To give Mao an objectively evaluation is controversial. He made a lot of
: mistakes but he also did a lot of great things. Qingshihuang is also a
: contraversial firgure. Demonize Mao or holifing Mao are both wrong. As LZ
: acknowledged, Yuan seemed to only emphasize the negative side of Mao while
: neglecting his postive side. For adults who have broader experiences and
: deeper understanding of the whole picture, that is not a big issue. But for
: high school kids, a serious responsible teacher who
| q******j
发帖数: 577 | 152 I am suprised by your interpretation, really. Did I say anything
discriminating any one? Did I say anything about ranking? Did I say
anything about socio-economic status? And actually I am citing Marxism's
mistakes. You are just fighting with your own imagination.
Different interest groups' existence is a matter of fact. Interest is very
broad, could be ideological based, religion based, economical interest based
, political based, military based, age based, sex based ... that is why you
ca
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: Compromise is not impossible, even in terms of terrorism. In reality, the
: US made a lot of compromises with terrorists, some are out of their own will
: , some are forced. They tolerate some terrorists (such as those against
: the other countries). They paid ramsom to get hostages back. Obama is
: pushing Israel (and actually some articles say the majority of Israelies
: want) to negotiate with Hamas.
: One of Marxism's mistakes is that he thought the tension and conflict
: between the working class an
| q******j
发帖数: 577 | 153 Again, I seriously doubt your reading capability. My post is in response to
LZ's question whether Hitler is contraversial. Did I say anywhere
admitting Hitler is comparable to Mao?
LZ is implying that if a figure is not contraversial, then a teacher can
just talk about all postives, if he is "good" guy, or only talk about
negatives, if he is "bad" guy. I pointed out that "contraversial" is
subjective. A teacher should do his best to give his students as many facts
as possible to help studen
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: I know you are gonna use this.
: Let us put it in this way, for any historical event or character (no matter
: how "contraversial" or "not contraversial" such event or character is), a
: history teacher should do his best to tell his students the whole picture.
: Yes, Hitler might indeed have done something good for German people. Just
: tell the students and let them figure out what kind a person he is and what
: kind of historical effect he made to human's history.
: 发信人: higator (gator), 信区: ChinaNews
: 标
| q******j
发帖数: 577 | 154 Is my criticism a political or personal attack to Yuan? I just pointed out
his way of teaching is not appropriate and has flaws. He could do a better
job.
发信人: WLRK (Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz), 信区: ChinaNews
标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Thu May 6 08:54:02 2010, 美东)
Nobody is saying Yuan should be immune from criticism. But a lot of
criticism is clearly politically motivated and directed at him personally.
more interesting by adding more 口语化的 historical stories. After all,
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: I certainly did not watch all Yuan's videos (I do not even know how to
: quantify "all" since he is alive and post more videos online). But from
: what I have seen, he is basically 说教 and 灌输. He just made his classes
: more interesting by adding more 口语化的 historical stories. After all, he
: is teaching high school classes to prepare 高考. I don't want to ask him
: for too much. At least, he is still much better than a lot teachers who can
: only read what is in the text books. But the point is, do not pr
| q******j
发帖数: 577 | 155 I am replying simply because you seem to spend a lot time to type and
respond my post. But I am really disappointed because you seem not to get my
point. My point is, if you do not like the way TG (and its officials) is
doing, do not follow TG's way of doing things. If you are accusing TG is
not objective, can you be more objective? If you are responding to TG's
injustice with injustice, that is circle. That is why I do not like 矫枉过
正.
BTW, you asked what improvements have done on the politi
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: I don't think my ask is a high standard for Yuan. BTW, it is those Yuan
: fans who claim he is THE MOST NIU teacher. I just used an average teacher
: standard to ask him to give a balanced view of histry to his students. If
: he omits something important, is he doing in the SAME way as TG is doing?
: Then why appraise him so much? Only because he is saying a different view?
: Additionally, I still believe individuals by making changes to their own
: hehaviors can contribute to a bigger change in the so
| q******j
发帖数: 577 | 156 Okay, you are not against TG, you are with TG. Just kidding.
发信人: WLRK (Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz), 信区: ChinaNews
标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Thu May 6 10:08:02 2010, 美东)
lol
Who am I to consider TG my opponent???? lol
from the history." You did not even try to limit it to TG never learns
lessons from its political reform history. And even if you made that
qualification, it is still too arbitrary. TG has ended the culture
revolution, TG has stopped political movements,
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: Maybe I miss something, but you said "sorry, but TG never learns lessons
: from the history." You did not even try to limit it to TG never learns
: lessons from its political reform history. And even if you made that
: qualification, it is still too arbitrary. TG has ended the culture
: revolution, TG has stopped political movements, TG has stopped ideological
: disputes, TG has lossened its control over freedom of speech (although under
: Hu's administration, there are some setbacks), TG has scaled back
| w****s
发帖数: 4430 | 157 中国现在的文化是愤青的文化，袁也罢韩也罢，无非培养更多的愤青而已。什么都是往
极端里的。不
是极左就是极右。就是缺乏一种，理性的，宽容的，不偏不倚的精神。
共产党如何？ 中国人的代表而已。你以为人民就是什么好货？
中国人，嘿嘿，没戏。
get my
officials) is
is
TG's
矫枉过
90's,
officials.
the
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: I am replying simply because you seem to spend a lot time to type and
: respond my post. But I am really disappointed because you seem not to get my
: point. My point is, if you do not like the way TG (and its officials) is
: doing, do not follow TG's way of doing things. If you are accusing TG is
: not objective, can you be more objective? If you are responding to TG's
: injustice with injustice, that is circle. That is why I do not like 矫枉过
: 正.
: BTW, you asked what improvements have done on the politi
| q******j
发帖数: 577 | 158 I respectifully disagree. Kids in high school indeed have alreday gained
some judging ability and the outstanding ones may mature even faster.
However, Kids in high school (and even in college) (remember 红卫兵?) are generally still easy
to be emotionalized and they tend to oversimplify things due to the lack of
social experiences. They are still in the process of shaping their
analyticall skills and world view. As a teacher, it is important to help
students to form good reasoning habits and thi
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: To give Mao an objectively evaluation is controversial. He made a lot of
: mistakes but he also did a lot of great things. Qingshihuang is also a
: contraversial firgure. Demonize Mao or holifing Mao are both wrong. As LZ
: acknowledged, Yuan seemed to only emphasize the negative side of Mao while
: neglecting his postive side. For adults who have broader experiences and
: deeper understanding of the whole picture, that is not a big issue. But for
: high school kids, a serious responsible teacher who
| q******j
发帖数: 577 | 159 Yes, that is what I am worried about. And that is why I don't like 矫枉过正
.
发信人: willis (willis), 信区: ChinaNews
标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Thu May 6 20:43:23 2010, 美东)
中国现在的文化是愤青的文化，袁也罢韩也罢，无非培养更多的愤青而已。什么都是往
极端里的。不是极左就是极右。就是缺乏一种，理性的，宽容的，不偏不倚的精神。
共产党如何？ 中国人的代表而已。你以为人民就是什么好货？
中国人，嘿嘿，没戏。
respond my post. But I am really disappointed because you seem not to get my
point. My point is, if you do not like the way TG (and its
officials) is doing, do not follow TG's way of doing things
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: I am replying simply because you seem to spend a lot time to type and
: respond my post. But I am really disappointed because you seem not to get my
: point. My point is, if you do not like the way TG (and its officials) is
: doing, do not follow TG's way of doing things. If you are accusing TG is
: not objective, can you be more objective? If you are responding to TG's
: injustice with injustice, that is circle. That is why I do not like 矫枉过
: 正.
: BTW, you asked what improvements have done on the politi
| W*********7
发帖数: 426 | 160 LOL, again sorry I do not agree with you. No, Hitler is not a controversial
image to the world. People know his human side toward his mistress or maybe
his dog, and we know his life experience from books, but what he did is way
too evil to claim any credits for himself as a person. As of Mao, like
Stalin, sooner or later time will get him justified, which I bet will no
better than Stalin, and generally speaking a negative image.
You would not deny that to draw any conconlusion on anyone and any
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: Again, I seriously doubt your reading capability. My post is in response to
: LZ's question whether Hitler is contraversial. Did I say anywhere
: admitting Hitler is comparable to Mao?
: LZ is implying that if a figure is not contraversial, then a teacher can
: just talk about all postives, if he is "good" guy, or only talk about
: negatives, if he is "bad" guy. I pointed out that "contraversial" is
: subjective. A teacher should do his best to give his students as many facts
: as possible to help studen
| | | W*********7
发帖数: 426 | 161 As a matter of fact, I am thinking about the examples you cited here, such as
Hitler, terrorists, etc, they all went too far to the extreme and are
extremists. I bet you probably just tell the truth here that, yes TG
government has gone too far to the extreme, with all these tragedies over 60
years. It is losing its ground and becomes more and more groundless in the
matter of legality and reasonableness.
You also talked about interest groups. May I ask you, does any government in
this world who
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: I am suprised by your interpretation, really. Did I say anything
: discriminating any one? Did I say anything about ranking? Did I say
: anything about socio-economic status? And actually I am citing Marxism's
: mistakes. You are just fighting with your own imagination.
: Different interest groups' existence is a matter of fact. Interest is very
: broad, could be ideological based, religion based, economical interest based
: , political based, military based, age based, sex based ... that is why you
: ca
| T*********e
发帖数: 9208 | 162 so true, mao cheated and killed his comrades, his enemies, and then the peop
le who follow him.
controversial
maybe
way
we
【在 W*********7 的大作中提到】
: LOL, again sorry I do not agree with you. No, Hitler is not a controversial
: image to the world. People know his human side toward his mistress or maybe
: his dog, and we know his life experience from books, but what he did is way
: too evil to claim any credits for himself as a person. As of Mao, like
: Stalin, sooner or later time will get him justified, which I bet will no
: better than Stalin, and generally speaking a negative image.
: You would not deny that to draw any conconlusion on anyone and any
| T*********e
发帖数: 9208 | 163 是从资本主义到农奴社会的转型把
【在 x****h 的大作中提到】
: 这个不能怪老毛，要怪小邓，是他不让你反扭曲的。你何必谦虚地说half truth,直说
: completely wrong就完了吗。
: 我非常赞成对建国后的事实进行客观描述，至于是否罪过，更别提严重或无法无天，不
: 要妄为先行扭曲，徒增
: 耻笑而已。一点现代法治精神都没有的说。
| T*********e
发帖数: 9208 | 164 成腊肉了,当然不死了
【在 x****h 的大作中提到】
: 这个不能怪老毛，要怪小邓，是他不让你反扭曲的。你何必谦虚地说half truth,直说
: completely wrong就完了吗。
: 我非常赞成对建国后的事实进行客观描述，至于是否罪过，更别提严重或无法无天，不
: 要妄为先行扭曲，徒增
: 耻笑而已。一点现代法治精神都没有的说。
| G**Y
发帖数: 33224 | 165 关键是那些批袁老师的
好像很没有安全感
小布什被骂的什么似的
活得不是依然很滋润
【在 h*****r 的大作中提到】
: 历史不是随意涂抹而为政治服务的工具。 历史最基本的原则是真实。
: 春秋战国时期，齐国大夫崔杼弑齐庄公。 “齐国太史公如实记载了这件事，崔杼心怒
: ，杀了太史。太史的二个弟弟也如实记载，都被崔杼杀了。崔杼告诉太史第三个弟弟说
: “你三个哥哥都死了，你难道不怕死吗？你还是按我的要求：把庄公之死写成得暴病而
: 死来写吧”，太史弟弟正色回答“据事直书，是史官的职责，失职求生，不如去死。你
: 做的这件事，迟早会被大家知道的，我即使不写，也掩盖不了你的罪责，反而成为千古
: 笑柄”。崔杼无话可说，只得放了他。太史弟弟走出来，正遇到南史公执简而来，南史
: 公以为他也被杀了，是来继续实写这事的。
: 如此前赴后继，真千古绝唱！”
: 古代的史官的精神，就是一种威武不能屈，富贵不能淫的精神。 记录的历史，以真实
| a*****s
发帖数: 15 | 166 历史教师袁腾飞和麦克弗拉
林晓
看了Youtube上的袁腾飞的讲座，让我想起了一个美国八十年代的一个电影“回到未来
(Back to future)”中的由麦可J福克斯扮演的中学生玛蒂麦克弗拉。电影中有这样一
段镜头，玛蒂坐时光汽车回到五十年代后，为了促成他父亲乔治和母亲劳潤的爱情，特
意在学校的派对舞会上弹了一曲摇滚，开始大家对这个来自八十年代的新生音乐还很新
奇，而当他弹到激动处的时候，所有的人都楞住了。最后他自己也停了下来，无奈的说
了一句“我想你们还没有接受（摇滚音乐的）准备”。
确实，不用说许多国内受党多年教育的同志们不能接受这样的音乐，就连许多身在国
外的留学生，受着西方言论自由的熏陶，对袁老师的那种丝毫没有为尊者讳而把历史当
相声一样来嘲弄，把江山象玩物一样来指点，把领袖象万户侯一样来粪土做法也觉得难
以接受。不过据说袁老师的学生对他都印象深刻，而他上央视也正是他的桃李们一致推
荐的结果。且不说袁老师的历史是正史还是野史，他说的每一件事是否经过考证，从央
视邀请他的本身这一点上还是说明了中国确实在言论自由上有了相当的进步。当然骂他
的人也是可以理解的，只是骂归骂，君子动口 | M*****N
发帖数: 1466 | 167 幸亏鲁迅不跟你咋一个时代，要不然，他得被你气死了，当然了，你得有这个荣幸让他
接触到你。。。。
historical
class
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: Don't assume Yuan's step is in the right direction.
: Don't assume there aren't any better way to step out that first step.
: Teaching students to think through historical events, analyze what went
: wrong, what did great, and try to give an objective evaluation to historical
: characters may not be that easy as it sounds like but it is definitely
: history teacher's responsibility.
: Yuan is good at telling stories which most students like to hear. His class
: is not boring. That is the first and the mos
| w**k
发帖数: 1455 | 168 You are comparing TG to terrorists?
:
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: Okay, you are not against TG, you are with TG. Just kidding.
: 发信人: WLRK (Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz), 信区: ChinaNews
: 标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Thu May 6 10:08:02 2010, 美东)
: lol
: Who am I to consider TG my opponent???? lol
:
: from the history." You did not even try to limit it to TG never learns
: lessons from its political reform history. And even if you made that
: qualification, it is still too arbitrary. TG has ended the culture
| q******j
发帖数: 577 | 169 You are with terrorists?
发信人: WLRK (Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz), 信区: ChinaNews
标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Fri May 7 14:21:17 2010, 美东)
You are comparing TG to terrorists? | q******j
发帖数: 577 | 170 You are just hopelessly trying to find something to fight back.
Unfortunately, Hitler was cited by LZ and terrorists were cited by WLRK. As
I pointed out, you are fighting too hard with your own imagination. Take
it easy. And you seem to try to alienate people who have different views on
some points while they actually may have a lot common views with you. Bush
's approach was "you're either against us, or with us." You seem to go
further and acted like "either you agree with ALL of my vie | | | W*********7
发帖数: 426 | 171 我没有把你想象成任何别人, 你就是身在美国的你, 在为某些罪恶和错误做一定程度的辩解的你.
但是我觉得,你该把你的建议, 勇敢地跟党国提出来, 这对他们很适用. 你把说话和建议的对象搞错了.
确实是你又将这些例子演生开去解释的, 不是吗? 向恐怖主义者赎回人质也罢, 交战
双方和谈也罢, 这样的对立面关系, 难道是一个国家的政府和人民之间应有的关系? 敌对双方都必须做出让步, 这可以用在中国的现实里吗? 因为事实是, 中国的公民们, 有什么可再让步的? 谁才是其中必须学会让步和尊重的一方? 你想说, 巴以都可以坐下来和谈, 政府和人民的矛盾有什么不可解决的? 但是, 一个不能再为自己的公民利益着想和服务的政府, 反而是公民要做出让步争取妥协的对象, 这不是很不合理甚至很荒诞吗? 不要告诉我你写那些文字不是针对普通民众.
但你确实说出了事实, 那就是党国正腐已经完全站在了人民的对立面, 失去了民意. 那么他还有什么存在的合法性合理性? 该不该是他们从自身开始忏悔, 道歉和改革的时候? 甚至必要时, 引咎下台? 但是以人大主席"绝不仿效西方体制"的说法, 他们必定不会这么做.
你把说话和
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: You are just hopelessly trying to find something to fight back.
: Unfortunately, Hitler was cited by LZ and terrorists were cited by WLRK. As
: I pointed out, you are fighting too hard with your own imagination. Take
: it easy. And you seem to try to alienate people who have different views on
: some points while they actually may have a lot common views with you. Bush
: 's approach was "you're either against us, or with us." You seem to go
: further and acted like "either you agree with ALL of my vie
| w**k
发帖数: 1455 | 172 Again, you are comparing oranges with apples.
Terrorism is a type of well defined conduct. CCP is a political party that
incorporate many different ideas. It's very easy for people to take a stand
on terrorism as long as they are against killing innocent people. But it
is far more complex for people to take a stand on a political party. Even
though you may vote for it, you don't necessarily agree with all of its
policies.
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: You are with terrorists?
: 发信人: WLRK (Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz), 信区: ChinaNews
: 标 题: Re: 袁腾飞的言论，是矫枉过正的表现
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Fri May 7 14:21:17 2010, 美东)
: You are comparing TG to terrorists?
| w**k
发帖数: 1455 | 173 你为什么总是把政治和恐怖主义对比呢?
你为什么总是认为什么东西都要一分为二呢? 反对恐怖主义到你那里就成立极端观点了?
反对种族灭绝你也认为太绝对? 那你做人有底线么?
As
on
Bush
,
【在 q******j 的大作中提到】
: You are just hopelessly trying to find something to fight back.
: Unfortunately, Hitler was cited by LZ and terrorists were cited by WLRK. As
: I pointed out, you are fighting too hard with your own imagination. Take
: it easy. And you seem to try to alienate people who have different views on
: some points while they actually may have a lot common views with you. Bush
: 's approach was "you're either against us, or with us." You seem to go
: further and acted like "either you agree with ALL of my vie
| l**********e
发帖数: 173 | 174 他只不過是做了初步的“矯正”，還沒罔“過”，畢竟是給學生講課，主綫還是書本上
的，矯正主要通過他的發揮。很多觀點早就流傳很久了，包括學界，他只是用逗樂的方
式公開了而已。如果不是在國内，他還可以再往前推進。總額來説對於一般人的覺醒很
有正面意義。 |
|
