a***g
发帖数: 1 | |
m*****8
发帖数: 701 | 2 NND丢人都丢到国际上去了，白宫不是说聚集10万人签名就可以关注一个热点问题吧，
大家发起一个万人签名，要求清华严肃处理这件事情。 |
D*a
发帖数: 6830 | |
s******r
发帖数: 1245 | 4 说不定是好事哈，等于打了广告了，nature就喜欢热点
【在 D*a 的大作中提到】
: 晕，那nature现在到底打算不打算发这篇了
|
z*t
发帖数: 863 | 5 这回谢的文章应该能发nature了吧？
【在 a***g 的大作中提到】
: http://www.nature.com/news/chinese-scientists-row-over-long-sou
: 张居然告诉nature自己能拿诺奖，这货简直疯了。
|
h*******e
发帖数: 404 | |
a*******i
发帖数: 27 | 7 NATURE | NEWS Sharing
Chinese scientists row over long-sought protein that senses magnetism
Two universities ask journal to retract paper that allegedly violated a
collaboration agreement.
David Cyranoski
21 September 2015
Article toolsRights & Permissions
Neuroscientists in China say they have used magnetic fields to control
neurons and muscle cells in nematode worms (pictured), after identifying a
protein that senses magnetism.
A dispute has broken out at two of China’s most prestigious universities
over a potentially groundbreaking discovery: the identification of a protein
that may allow organisms to sense magnetic fields.
On 14 September, Zhang Sheng-jia, a neuroscientist at Tsinghua University in
Beijing, and his colleagues published a paper1 in Science Bulletin claiming
to use magnetic fields to remotely control neurons and muscle cells in
worms, by employing a particular magnetism-sensing protein.
But Xie Can, a biophysicist at neighbouring Peking University, says that
Zhang’s publication draws on a discovery made in his laboratory, currently
under review for publication, and violates a collaboration agreement the two
had reached. Administrators at Tsinghua and Peking universities, siding
with Xie, have jointly requested that the journal retract Zhang’s paper,
and Tsinghua has launched an investigation into Zhang’s actions.
The dispute revolves around an answer to the mystery of how organisms as
diverse as worms, butterflies, sea turtles and wolves are capable of sensing
Earth’s magnetic field to help them navigate. Researchers have postulated
that structures in biological cells must be responsible, and dubbed these
structures magnetoreceptors. But they have never been found.
Disputed agreement
In research starting in 2009, Xie says that he used a painstaking whole-
genome screen to identify a protein containing iron and sulfur that seems,
according to his experiments, to have the properties of a magnetoreceptor.
He called it MagR, to note its purported properties, and has since been
examining its function and structure to determine how it senses magnetic
fields.
While Xie waited for his paper to make it through peer review — a process
that started in December 2014 — a handful of groups initiated
collaborations with him in hopes of using MagR as a research tool. He shared
the protein, related biological materials and data, on the condition that
other groups would let him publish his discovery first and include him as a
co-author in their papers. “I never really worried about it because we all
agreed that the paper determining the protein should be first,” says Xie.
Xie shared information and biological materials with Zhang, but the two
contest the details of their agreement. Zhang says that he agreed to Xie’s
conditions, but that Xie also promised not to share the data with anyone
else. And Zhang says that after he heard that Xie had “leaked” his data,
he felt that he no longer needed to honour the agreement.
But Xie says that he made no such promise to Zhang. “Why would I?” he says
. Xie says that he was collaborating with another Tsinghua University
neuroscientist, Lu Bai, and shared information with Zhang because he
mistakenly believed that Zhang was part of Lu’s research team. He said that
he gained that impression after Zhang accompanied Lu’s student on a visit
to Xie’s lab in April. Zhang, meanwhile, says that he and Xie had forged an
agreement independent of Lu, something Xie denies.
Approached for comment, Lu says that Tsinghua has asked him not to discuss
the matter — but documents seen by Nature show that the university has
launched an investigation into Zhang’s actions after Lu complained that
Zhang stole his research materials and ideas.
Magnetic 'magic'
The contents of Zhang's paper have sparked debate and some doubt. In the
work — which was submitted on 9 September, accepted on 11 September and
published three days later — Zhang uses the same protein that Xie had
identified, but calls it MAR, not MagR. He reports experiments using
magnetic fields to manipulate cells engineered to express the protein. For
example, by engineering worms to have MAR active only in muscles, he uses
magnetism to make their muscles contract. And by engineering them to have
MAR only in certain neurons related to sensitivity to touch, he reports that
magnetic fields made the worms withdraw, as if reacting to physical touch.
The report is preliminary, but shows the potential of using the protein and
magnetic fields to stimulate neurons, says Mu-ming Poo, director of the
Institute of Neuroscience at the Chinese Academy of Sciences in Shanghai.
But he and other researchers are critical that the paper does not discuss
how the protein can sense magnetic fields. James Chou, a biological chemist
at Harvard Medical School in Boston, Massachusetts, says that the work
offers no reasonable explanation — or even speculation.
“They don't really seem to understand why this protein appears to be
magnetic,” says Peter Hore, a biochemist at the University of Oxford, UK.
He says that the description of the protein central to the experiment is
inaccurate. The paper speculates that the proteins form as “magnetosomes”.
But Hore points out that this is a term generally used for structures
composed of magnetic minerals, rather than proteins. “They’ve confused a
cluster of iron and sulfur atoms in a protein with a mineral that contains
no protein at all,” he says.
Zhang concedes that he is unclear on how the protein might work. But he says
that the important thing is that “we know how to trigger robust activity
with this magical molecule”. The paper has three other co-authors, whom
Zhang says are all his graduate students. Nature has not been able to
contact them, and Zhang has refused to provide their e-mail addresses,
saying that he had to check with the university whether it was OK to do so.
Academic ethics
In an e-mail seen by Nature, administrators from Tsinghua and Peking
universities say they have asked the journal to retract Zhang's publication.
They say that by proceeding without Xie's permission, Zhang's paper "
violated academic norms". Asked for comment, editors at Science Bulletin
acknowledged receiving the message, but said that their actions “will
depend on the results of the investigation provided by the institutions.”
The journal is co-published by Science China Press and Springer; a
spokesperson for Springer said the publisher was currently looking into the
matter and had no further comment to make at this time.
Zhang told Nature that he thinks his research will win a Nobel prize. He
says that he was justified in publishing the results because Xie’s work was
merely biochemical identification, whereas he had the idea of using
magnetic fields and the protein to control cells. Xie says that this idea is
obvious, and that he included it in a patent he applied for last year.
Whatever the result of the dispute, scientists whom Nature has spoken to are
excited by the prospects of finally identifying a magnetoreceptor in cells
— whoever turns out to have done it. “To know the molecular basis of using
proteins to sense magnetic fields would be incredible!” says Chou.
Nature doi:10.1038/nature.2015.18397 |
o**4
发帖数: 35028 | 8 在nature material上revise呢吧。
【在 z*t 的大作中提到】
: 这回谢的文章应该能发nature了吧？
|
k*****n
发帖数: 417 | 9 2014年12月投稿nature 本来可以继续在nature review的 因为张生家8月摆明了要抢了
发 谢灿不得已转投nature materials
【在 o**4 的大作中提到】
: 在nature material上revise呢吧。
|
k*****n
发帖数: 417 | 10 The report is preliminary, but shows the potential of using the protein and
magnetic fields to stimulate neurons, says Mu-ming Poo, director of the
Institute of Neuroscience at the Chinese Academy of Sciences in Shanghai.
But he and other researchers are critical that the paper does not discuss
how the protein can sense magnetic fields. James Chou, a biological chemist
at Harvard Medical School in Boston, Massachusetts, says that the work
offers no reasonable explanation — or even speculation.
“They don't really seem to understand why this protein appears to be
magnetic,” says Peter Hore, a biochemist at the University of Oxford, UK.
He says that the description of the protein central to the experiment is
inaccurate. The paper speculates that the proteins form as “magnetosomes”.
But Hore points out that this is a term generally used for structures
composed of magnetic minerals, rather than proteins. “They’ve confused a
cluster of iron and sulfur atoms in a protein with a mineral that contains
no protein at all,” he says. |
|
|
o**4
发帖数: 35028 | 11 nature就是很恶心，经常让revise个1-2年，说不定还给拒了。
【在 k*****n 的大作中提到】
: 2014年12月投稿nature 本来可以继续在nature review的 因为张生家8月摆明了要抢了
: 发 谢灿不得已转投nature materials
|
k*****n
发帖数: 417 | 12 Zhang told Nature that he thinks his research will win a Nobel prize. He
says that he was justified in publishing the results because Xie’s work was
merely biochemical identification, whereas he had the idea of using
magnetic fields and the protein to control cells. Xie says that this idea is
obvious, and that he included it in a patent he applied for last year. |
k*****n
发帖数: 417 | 13 这篇新闻没有写在nature或nature materials review 可能也是出于学术中立 不影响
审稿
但是对该项研究的评价很高（如果是正确的）
【在 o**4 的大作中提到】
: nature就是很恶心，经常让revise个1-2年，说不定还给拒了。
|
o**4
发帖数: 35028 | 14 这个研究确实是突破性的，看谢灿的信里所说确实有资格竞争诺奖的。
【在 k*****n 的大作中提到】
: 这篇新闻没有写在nature或nature materials review 可能也是出于学术中立 不影响
: 审稿
: 但是对该项研究的评价很高（如果是正确的）
|
s**2
发帖数: 1287 | 15 老美科学家里，狂妄如 Bob Roeder, Rudy Jaenisch，都还没到公开声称自己能得啥啥
奖的程度。张这是为诺奖丧心病狂了吧？所以做出大部分正常人觉得无耻到没有底线的
事情来。
【在 a***g 的大作中提到】
: http://www.nature.com/news/chinese-scientists-row-over-long-sou
: 张居然告诉nature自己能拿诺奖，这货简直疯了。
|
b*****n
发帖数: 75 | 16 这把牛逼了，真发NATURE了。你们说张是真疯子还是装的？我觉得他是装的疯子。 |
r*s
发帖数: 2555 | 17 这个Peter Hore可能是谢文的审稿人之一 |
o**4
发帖数: 35028 | 18 Rudolf Jaenisch是个跟风大王，没有一个研究够得上这个级别的。
bob roeder不太清楚了。
【在 s**2 的大作中提到】
: 老美科学家里，狂妄如 Bob Roeder, Rudy Jaenisch，都还没到公开声称自己能得啥啥
: 奖的程度。张这是为诺奖丧心病狂了吧？所以做出大部分正常人觉得无耻到没有底线的
: 事情来。
|
z*******o
发帖数: 1794 | 19 张生家马上拿个小本子记下来，这是他那篇划时代巨作的第一个citation，而且是来自
于nature。从现在到2025年还有无数个citation，所有文章一定会引用的。
【在 a***g 的大作中提到】
: http://www.nature.com/news/chinese-scientists-row-over-long-sou
: 张居然告诉nature自己能拿诺奖，这货简直疯了。
|
s**2
发帖数: 1287 | 20 你说 “Jaenisch 是个跟风大王”，你大概是指他近几年在干细胞方面的工作吧？
我一点也不喜欢 Rudy Jaenisch 这个人。不过他早年的工作还是杠杠的。
以下是wiki上摘来的。希望不是象“张诺贝尔”那样，自己编录的。哈哈哈
Jaenisch’s first breakthrough occurred in 1974 when he and Beatrice Mintz
showed that foreign DNA could be integrated into the DNA of early mouse
embryos.[4] They injected retrovirus DNA into early mouse embryos and showed
that leukemia DNA sequences had integrated into the mouse genome and also
to its offspring. These mice were the first transgenic mammals in history.[5]
【在 o**4 的大作中提到】
: Rudolf Jaenisch是个跟风大王，没有一个研究够得上这个级别的。
: bob roeder不太清楚了。
|
|
|
x********e
发帖数: 35261 | 21 哈哈 同感
我觉得他实验室也发了好些水文
【在 o**4 的大作中提到】
: Rudolf Jaenisch是个跟风大王，没有一个研究够得上这个级别的。
: bob roeder不太清楚了。
|
o**4
发帖数: 35028 | 22 这个在细胞里好像都知道了，他只是用胚胎进一步做了下，只是速度快，没有任何理论
创新。
当然了，rudolf的文章还是很不错的，但是都缺乏诺贝尔奖级别的创新，属于很牛逼的
非诺贝尔奖级别的生物学家。
showed
[5]
【在 s**2 的大作中提到】
: 你说 “Jaenisch 是个跟风大王”，你大概是指他近几年在干细胞方面的工作吧？
: 我一点也不喜欢 Rudy Jaenisch 这个人。不过他早年的工作还是杠杠的。
: 以下是wiki上摘来的。希望不是象“张诺贝尔”那样，自己编录的。哈哈哈
: Jaenisch’s first breakthrough occurred in 1974 when he and Beatrice Mintz
: showed that foreign DNA could be integrated into the DNA of early mouse
: embryos.[4] They injected retrovirus DNA into early mouse embryos and showed
: that leukemia DNA sequences had integrated into the mouse genome and also
: to its offspring. These mice were the first transgenic mammals in history.[5]
|
o**4
发帖数: 35028 | 23 水只是相对于诺贝尔奖级别的工作，做的还是相当不错扎实的。
【在 x********e 的大作中提到】
: 哈哈 同感
: 我觉得他实验室也发了好些水文
|
b*****n
发帖数: 75 | 24 BOB ROEDER是真核转录的鼻祖，RNA聚合酶最早的纯化者，当然因为种种原因，也没拿
到炸药奖。哈哈。
【在 o**4 的大作中提到】
: Rudolf Jaenisch是个跟风大王，没有一个研究够得上这个级别的。
: bob roeder不太清楚了。
|
b*****n
发帖数: 75 | 25 BOB ROEDER是真核转录的鼻祖，RNA聚合酶最早的纯化者，当然因为种种原因，也没拿
到炸药奖。哈哈。
【在 o**4 的大作中提到】
: Rudolf Jaenisch是个跟风大王，没有一个研究够得上这个级别的。
: bob roeder不太清楚了。
|
o**4
发帖数: 35028 | 26 嗯，他是有点可惜，擦边而过，有点像王晓东的凋亡？
【在 b*****n 的大作中提到】
: BOB ROEDER是真核转录的鼻祖，RNA聚合酶最早的纯化者，当然因为种种原因，也没拿
: 到炸药奖。哈哈。
|
x********e
发帖数: 35261 | 27 这段我觉得还好啊 我挺喜欢那篇用病毒做lineage tracing的文章
showed
[5]
【在 s**2 的大作中提到】
: 你说 “Jaenisch 是个跟风大王”，你大概是指他近几年在干细胞方面的工作吧？
: 我一点也不喜欢 Rudy Jaenisch 这个人。不过他早年的工作还是杠杠的。
: 以下是wiki上摘来的。希望不是象“张诺贝尔”那样，自己编录的。哈哈哈
: Jaenisch’s first breakthrough occurred in 1974 when he and Beatrice Mintz
: showed that foreign DNA could be integrated into the DNA of early mouse
: embryos.[4] They injected retrovirus DNA into early mouse embryos and showed
: that leukemia DNA sequences had integrated into the mouse genome and also
: to its offspring. These mice were the first transgenic mammals in history.[5]
|
k*****n
发帖数: 417 | 28 从这篇报道刊，被采访的那些科学家对张生家的研究基本嗤之以鼻啊。
看前几天的爆料，好像张的实验室基本都没开张，连细胞都没养，操纵磁场的仪器还是
谢灿自己设计的，被他拿走至今未还。
看张这么丧心病狂想抢先发得炸药奖，搞不好这篇文章的数据还是伪造的，反正没有经
过同行评审，他还不允许Nature采访文章中的研究生。 |
s**2
发帖数: 1287 | 29 Rudy 不需要用自编wiki来提高自己的贡献。我那是调侃“诺贝尔张”。:D
【在 x********e 的大作中提到】
: 这段我觉得还好啊 我挺喜欢那篇用病毒做lineage tracing的文章
:
: showed
: [5]
|
D*a
发帖数: 6830 | 30 擦肩而过，那不是11g嘛？
可能清华就是诺奖级太多了，才整的是个人都要去诺奖级一下子
【在 o**4 的大作中提到】
: 嗯，他是有点可惜，擦边而过，有点像王晓东的凋亡？
|
|
|
b*****n
发帖数: 75 | 31 他这个可比王晓东还要冤多了，主要还是做人问题……RNA聚合酶给了那家诺贝尔父子
兵，据说老爹在评奖前天天飞瑞典……
【在 o**4 的大作中提到】
: 嗯，他是有点可惜，擦边而过，有点像王晓东的凋亡？
|
l*******i
发帖数: 153 | 32 按理说应该不是，审稿人在文章还为接收前应回避这种公开的采访。
Hore那段话是批张的文章的。
话说回来，张真是厚颜无耻啊，赤裸裸地抢credit，还振振有词。如果国内不惩罚、打
压这种人（最好能够将其驱逐出科研界），否则绝对是国内科研界的耻辱。
【在 r*s 的大作中提到】
: 这个Peter Hore可能是谢文的审稿人之一
|
o**4
发帖数: 35028 | 33 美女跟11g有仇啊，我也没提他啊，哈哈
【在 D*a 的大作中提到】
: 擦肩而过，那不是11g嘛？
: 可能清华就是诺奖级太多了，才整的是个人都要去诺奖级一下子
|
o**4
发帖数: 35028 | 34 官方的理由呢？
【在 b*****n 的大作中提到】
: 他这个可比王晓东还要冤多了，主要还是做人问题……RNA聚合酶给了那家诺贝尔父子
: 兵，据说老爹在评奖前天天飞瑞典……
|
d******n
发帖数: 3836 | 35 张生厉害啊，无耻耍赖，不行就说自己精神有问题，砍了小谢都没事
【在 o**4 的大作中提到】
: 嗯，他是有点可惜，擦边而过，有点像王晓东的凋亡？
|
o**4
发帖数: 35028 | 36 这哥们感觉会很惨的，
本来至少可以当个清华教授的。
【在 d******n 的大作中提到】
: 张生厉害啊，无耻耍赖，不行就说自己精神有问题，砍了小谢都没事
|
y******m
发帖数: 143 | 37 实在是无语，这是浮躁的典型代表。真给个诺奖，也只是给中国人丢脸 |
s******y
发帖数: 17729 | 38 很好，把撕逼规格整高一点，让全世界都来围观这货的丑陋，顺便也暴露生物砖窑的恶
心现状
【在 a***g 的大作中提到】
: http://www.nature.com/news/chinese-scientists-row-over-long-sou
: 张居然告诉nature自己能拿诺奖，这货简直疯了。
|
c*****u
发帖数: 439 | 39 清华招人不靠谱，目前看也就是晓东当年最早招的那批人牛，成功率太高。晓东比一公
还是有眼光。
【在 o**4 的大作中提到】
: 这哥们感觉会很惨的，
: 本来至少可以当个清华教授的。
|
k*****n
发帖数: 417 | 40 如果谢灿这个工作被证明是真的，说明饶毅也有眼光，谢灿之前的文章一般，最好也就
Immunity吧？不知道他是不是饶毅招进来的。
【在 c*****u 的大作中提到】
: 清华招人不靠谱，目前看也就是晓东当年最早招的那批人牛，成功率太高。晓东比一公
: 还是有眼光。
|
|
|
O********4
发帖数: 113 | 41 这个Peter Hore 应该是谢灿文章的审稿人，因为谢灿刚投稿他就请谢去英国给talk。
真正的科学家都乐见谢的文章的发表也会为这种突破高兴，他不避嫌说明他是比较
positive的审稿人。
张不是说不接受采访么，怎么又接受Nature 采访了？这里对他的科学通报的工作评价
是“Preliminary”, 非常贴切，张的东西过不了peer review 的。 |
b*****n
发帖数: 75 | 42 我这里得到理由是，化学奖以为生理学奖会提名他，生理学奖以为化学奖会提他，结果
都没提。未经确证，只是小道消息。据说是颁发诺奖之前，他弄了那个最后得诺奖的，
结果那家伙爸爸恼了……
不过即使不得诺奖，人家做的东西摆在那里啊，RNA聚合酶最早的纯化分离者……
总之诺奖这玩意，确实还有有这些莫名其妙的东西在里面的。
【在 o**4 的大作中提到】
: 官方的理由呢？
|
