E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 1 【 以下文字转载自 TrustInJesus 讨论区 】
发信人: Eloihim (真神), 信区: TrustInJesus
标 题: littletshirt 的拙劣謊言
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 4 09:02:43 2011, 美东)
起因在這裡
http://www.mitbbs.com/article_t/TrustInJesus/515211.html
原來她的問題是
first, can you define "random" as implied in Darwin's theory?
random 是數學名詞， 進化論裡提到random 都是在說
random mutation, 所以我猜她要問的是 random mutation 是什麼意思,
所以回答了
“就是每一代多少跟前一代有點不同， 這也有問題嗎？”
她抓住這個說我連random 跟 mutation 有什麼差別都不知道,
以為抓住我的破綻了，一說再說。
我說 littletshirt啊！ 你是真的以為我會搞不清楚一個數學名詞跟一個生物名詞
的差別？ 你要是不真的這樣認為，你很惡劣，你要是真的這樣認為，你的
智商有沒有下限？
有些辯論對手我還是尊敬的，上次跟魁爺打擂台時，我就對他的努力很敬佩，
你這種胡纏亂打是自己出洋相，沒意義的。 |
w*********e
发帖数: 6093 | 2 仅仅补充说明一点，生物学上说的
random mutation 的意思是
mutation的发生是random没有必然性方向性的，换言之，各个可能都有可能，由环境来
决定哪个方向的mutation可以延续
以此来与环境诱导mutation方向学说做区别
实际上，mutation并不是完全random的，某些类型某些位点比其他的更多发生甚至有倾
向性的状况也有存在，不过总体来说，random mutation没啥问题。 |
w*********e
发帖数: 6093 | |
w*********e
发帖数: 6093 | 4 没忍住去看了看，没懂littletshirt纠结的是什么
有人可以给我讲解一下其 random vs mutation 是啥逻辑么？
类似红色的vs花？问红色的和花的区别么？ |
d******2
发帖数: 107 | 5 Eloihim talked about random mutation in the context on biological evolution
instead of mathematical randomness. She then kept saying Eloihim don't
understand randomness.
And the error in littletshirt's argument for this whole "randomness" issue
is that:
1. She kept saying that randomness cannot generate order and complexity. She
does not understand that natural selection can select those efficient
organisms(e.g. by favoring reproduction efficiency). Her error is similar to
the misuse of the second law of thermodynamics. She didn't understand that
organisms can use energy from the environment (e.g. the sun) and evolve into
more effecient energy transmitters.
2. Even if something is random, it does not mean it didn't happen. And when
it happens she should not deny it. I think this is similar to the anthropic
principle.
I mentioned these in my replys to her posts. I am just tired of repeating
myself.
【在 w*********e 的大作中提到】
: 没忍住去看了看，没懂littletshirt纠结的是什么
: 有人可以给我讲解一下其 random vs mutation 是啥逻辑么？
: 类似红色的vs花？问红色的和花的区别么？
|
w*********e
发帖数: 6093 | 6 thank you
evolution
She
to
that
into
【在 d******2 的大作中提到】
: Eloihim talked about random mutation in the context on biological evolution
: instead of mathematical randomness. She then kept saying Eloihim don't
: understand randomness.
: And the error in littletshirt's argument for this whole "randomness" issue
: is that:
: 1. She kept saying that randomness cannot generate order and complexity. She
: does not understand that natural selection can select those efficient
: organisms(e.g. by favoring reproduction efficiency). Her error is similar to
: the misuse of the second law of thermodynamics. She didn't understand that
: organisms can use energy from the environment (e.g. the sun) and evolve into
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 7 就是賴皮得滿地打滾而已
這人一開始高調反對進化論， 講講發現她不反對進化論的大部份
內容， 就是不信 random mutation (也不確定)， 搞半天
還是不知道她在吵什麼。
【在 w*********e 的大作中提到】
: 没忍住去看了看，没懂littletshirt纠结的是什么
: 有人可以给我讲解一下其 random vs mutation 是啥逻辑么？
: 类似红色的vs花？问红色的和花的区别么？
|
g*******1
发帖数: 8758 | 8 呵呵，这样的话你肯定吵不过了。
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: 就是賴皮得滿地打滾而已
: 這人一開始高調反對進化論， 講講發現她不反對進化論的大部份
: 內容， 就是不信 random mutation (也不確定)， 搞半天
: 還是不知道她在吵什麼。
|
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | |
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 10 Contex to the lengthy discussion: Eloihim (真神)'s misunderstanding of the "
cuause" vs. the outcome.
IHMO, the key difference between the "evolution theory" and Christian belief
is the casual factor of "variation/mutation" as observed in fossil records
& other scientific discoveries. In Darwin's theory, these cause of these "
mutation/variation" is "random" (intractable/unknown), vs. Christian belief
in design/guidance from God.
So these two words ("random" vs. "mutation/varition") are the key concepts
at the center of the debate.
Beliefs aside, any serious course on evolution theory would
contrast Darwin's theory (random variation/mutation) with Lamarck' theory of
of acquired inheritance ("variation or mutation" not random, but made
according to the desire of the organism and passed on to next generation).
So the "random" cause is a hallmark of Darwin's evolution theory.
So how can someone claim to study "evolution theory" but fail to understand
the very critical concepts of "random" and "mutation"?
It turns out that this is NOT the only thing that he didn't grasp. See
previous post for quotes. |
|
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 11 I rarely (never) visit this board so the floor is left open for Eloihim (真
神)'s excuse/personal insult. |
m****a
发帖数: 9485 | 12
看了帖子和其他人的评论，我觉得您这样说这位姐妹是“恶意谎言”实在有些过分。这
仅仅是两个不同的人对一些问题的概念和理解，在不同层面上的理解不同而已，哪里谈得
上人品的“恶意谎言”？这样对待讨论对手似乎也不是您的一贯作风啊？是否真的是换
季的烦躁？
建议您修改标题吧，多谢了！
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: 就是賴皮得滿地打滾而已
: 這人一開始高調反對進化論， 講講發現她不反對進化論的大部份
: 內容， 就是不信 random mutation (也不確定)， 搞半天
: 還是不知道她在吵什麼。
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 13 totally agree.
but it seems Eloihim can't tell the cause ("random") from the outcome ("variation/mutation").
hope you can come over to the "TrustInJesus" board to comment on biology related posts (to clarify the misconcepts, etc).
【在 w*********e 的大作中提到】
: 仅仅补充说明一点，生物学上说的
: random mutation 的意思是
: mutation的发生是random没有必然性方向性的，换言之，各个可能都有可能，由环境来
: 决定哪个方向的mutation可以延续
: 以此来与环境诱导mutation方向学说做区别
: 实际上，mutation并不是完全random的，某些类型某些位点比其他的更多发生甚至有倾
: 向性的状况也有存在，不过总体来说，random mutation没啥问题。
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 14
【在 w*********e 的大作中提到】
: 没忍住去看了看，没懂littletshirt纠结的是什么
: 有人可以给我讲解一下其 random vs mutation 是啥逻辑么？
: 类似红色的vs花？问红色的和花的区别么？
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 15 惡意說謊再一次
and personal insults for pointing out his misunderstanding.
acknowledge that human is a random outcome of evoltuion as well.
's
key
theories(
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
|
w*********e
发帖数: 6093 | 16 你别agree了
你犯的一个认识错误是没有意识到
random是形容outcome的，不是cause的
电子的位置是random的，是观察到的结果，而原因是明确的"量子效应"
要不你从PCR原理及PCR错误率开始学习吧，比较直接。
variation/mutation").
related posts (to clarify the misconcepts, etc).
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: totally agree.
: but it seems Eloihim can't tell the cause ("random") from the outcome ("variation/mutation").
: hope you can come over to the "TrustInJesus" board to comment on biology related posts (to clarify the misconcepts, etc).
|
w*********e
发帖数: 6093 | 17 random是形容outcome的
---〉补充说明，是mutation产生这个结果，而不是selcetion的结果。关于
selection的结果的randomness,你先搞懂了上面那个再讨论吧。 |
t*******d
发帖数: 2570 | 18 你说的是random mutation vs. directed mutation, 是random vs. directed (guided
, designed, etc.), 不是random vs mutation.
"
belief
records
belief
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: Contex to the lengthy discussion: Eloihim (真神)'s misunderstanding of the "
: cuause" vs. the outcome.
: IHMO, the key difference between the "evolution theory" and Christian belief
: is the casual factor of "variation/mutation" as observed in fossil records
: & other scientific discoveries. In Darwin's theory, these cause of these "
: mutation/variation" is "random" (intractable/unknown), vs. Christian belief
: in design/guidance from God.
: So these two words ("random" vs. "mutation/varition") are the key concepts
: at the center of the debate.
: Beliefs aside, any serious course on evolution theory would
|
