c****u
发帖数: 3277 | 1 lol, 5H merely says I have a good hand, if you like your hand, you can bid 6.
Those control asking bids are one of the biggest nonsense of modern bridge
and
they indeed are one of the most frequently abused bids.
cuebid. |
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d****i
发帖数: 90 | 2
if you can't afford 6 when partner does have spade control, it is the
decision
to use this agreement that makes no sense, not necessarily the agreement
itself.
good point. again, if spade controls can be confirmed (with or without) at
level of 4, it makes the use of jump to 5 at least nonsense.
should
trumps,
yes to "no cuebids", a must to "good trumps", true with "4N doesn't do"; but
think it from partner's side, 1. does he need to worry about spade control
at all for 6 (you denied it, i assum |
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c****u
发帖数: 3277 | 3 well, 3H by default is probably nonforcing.
cuebid |
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d****i
发帖数: 90 | 4
cuebid
can't agree more.
there are 3H=GI agreements though, but i would also guess that GF is more "
standard" (popular). |
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w****b
发帖数: 623 | 5 I think control asking is sometimes still useful. It is probably true you
can have alternative routes to get to slam (or avoid slam) but this
sometimes simplify things quite a bid.
For instance if you have a hand like xx AKQxxxx Ax Ax, being able to bid 5H
somehow to ask S control will simplify a lot of things. If you try to cuebid
after transfer, pd sometimes may not be able to evaluate his hand to decide
whether to cooperate or not.
In addition, it seems to me that here you can have two ways t |
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c****u
发帖数: 3277 | 6 lol, xx AKQxxxx Ax Ax is a rkc hand after partner's 1NT opening.
You can shoot him if he produces a dummy with QJxx Jxx KQJ KQJ, or shoot
yourself, lol. Actually this hand may not justify a strong 1NT opening
because of the dubious values in H/D/C and extremely lack of controls.
Basically, a direct jump to 5H as control asking in one suit
is extremely rare and most frequently abused IMO.
5H
cuebid
decide
to
Kx
sometimes you belong to 6NT in this case), and |
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c****u
发帖数: 3277 | 7 Also, another problem is that you may miss 7 if you only need spade controls.
For example, if you bid 5H with xx AKxxxxxx KQJ -, if partner holds both S
controls and DA or SADACA, you miss 7 and your 5H only asks for 6. That's
why
you almost never see me jump to 5 level to ask for certain controls in our
partnership. When I jump, I basically say: I have no cuebids available
and I still want to bid...
you
sense
have
sense |
|
p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 8 In your first round, you should bid 3S to show 6-6 two suiter. I don't buy
the western cue nonsense. In my 20 years' bridge experience, I never hold a
hand that justifies a 3S cuebid and I have no other way to show this hand. |
|
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w****b
发帖数: 623 | 9 This is highly debatable. In general, when pd launches 4sf, you are not in a
position to jump to 3S with 3S + extra. The reason is you don't know pd's
intention. Pd may have C slam interest, now if pd bid 4C over your 3S, what
is it? C cuebid in lieu of S, or denying 5th S and reinforce the C?
Plus, not all people would bid 2S with 3-5-1-4 over 1S, this is a stylish
decision. If stylish can be accounted for, certainly the style that
describing shape without promising stoppers is better -- when y |
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b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 10 ３Ｓ（showing 3514 with extra）is such a narrow-range descriptive bid, that
responder can almost place the contract afterwards. ４Ｃshould express
interest in club slam. To explore spade slam, most of the time responder
doesn't need cuebid at this moment, just 4NT rkc is sufficient. If you want
to be scientific about it, you can use 3NT by responder as artificial bid
agreeing spade suit. You will not have a hand that responder wants to play
3NT anyway (if responder has D stopper he would either bid 3N |
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b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 11 No, don't even "think" about it. Instead, discuss methods with your partner.
There are ways to show void in response to keycard asking. Other methods
include cuebidding, exclusion blackwood, etc.... |
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b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 12 Before I go any further, let me just state that I have respect on your
passion of bridge, especially in the area of bidding theory. In fact I am a
fan of structure optimization myself. I also agree that accurately showing
shape and strength is the elements in all good bidding, regardless of
systems and conventions. What you didn't realize is that many players choose
to decline some optimization on purpose, for the sake of achieving better
overall result. How can people gain by refusing to use op... 阅读全帖 |
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p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 13 KQ9xx
x
KTxxx
xx
J
Q98x
Axx
AKxxx
In this hand, Zia and Rosenberg overbid to 4S after 1H(opp) 1S p 2H p 2S p
3N p 4S.
Of course this is a typical hand showing that the standard new suit
nonforcing style is very difficult to play even for top pairs like Zia and
Rosenberg. One clear improvement is to make 1S overcall sounder, usually in
the range of 1 HCP lower than a typical opening minimum and the responder should
play new suit one round forcing(still, it doesn't guarantee a rebid after
non... 阅读全帖 |
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p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 14 we do have some agreements over 1x 1M p 1N.
A direct minor suit bid is canape and nonforcing, a cuebid just shows a good
hand with 5 or more M. A jump shift shows a strong canape hand with longer
m, which is forcing. This is also true over 1/1 or 2/1 I think. |
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j*******e
发帖数: 2168 | 15 In the 1C sequence, the trump is established after 3C, so can we cuebid 3H
first, instead of 3S? |
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b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 16 Seems to me that, after 3C, we are still looking for best game (game bidding
takes priority over slam bidding). So 3S should be patterning out (weakness
in diamond, some value in spades) at this point. Of course, if opener then
pull partner's 3NT to 4C, then 3S becomes advanced cuebid. |
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p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 17 Double is very wrong. The correct bid is pass.
Here, there are two groups. One is to bid 3H over the double as gameforcing.
For that group, 5C is an impossible bid, because you can bid 4C with strong
5-5 in S/C. 3H with gf H hands.
For the other group, 3H is nonforcing. So with very strong hands, opener has
to either bid 4H or cuebid first.
Therefore, 5C is ERKC here, because there is no hand that should first cue
3D then jump to 5C with real C. With a very strong 5-5 two suiter, 4C is
still a v... 阅读全帖 |
|
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a****s
发帖数: 524 | 19 If he doesn't care about Trump Q, could he just bid 5NT to start the King
cue-bid sequence?
Of course he knew 5D couldn't be no key cards. It's just impossible.
trump
for
that minor possibilities, because your partner may hold trump Q for about 50
% of times when grand slam is in consideration. In those times, you really
need to reserve spaces for king cuebids. |
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p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 20 Let me make it clear, the whole bidding sequence doesn't make much sense.
After 2C, suppose 2C p 2D 2H 2S p 3C is nonforcing. 3H can be the only gf
bid.
So 3NT is to play, not serious or nonserious slam try, because if 3H shows a
gf spade raise, then you bid 3NT to show some serious slam interest,
partner bids 4S to sign off, there is no way for you to bid 4NT, because you
should just bid 4NT right away in that case.
Now after a natural 3NT, 4S shows mild slam interest in S. 4NT is RKC, 5D
shows... 阅读全帖 |
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p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 21 Partner's 4D is a very strange bid in MP. You didn't show much and he just
bid 4D to bypass 3NT, so he can't hold 3 hearts here and most likely he
should hold 5 diamonds. Also, he denies CA here because he didn't cuebid 4C.
So it can be something like: AKx Kx AKxxx Kxx. Now you should just bid 4H
to suggest a place to play.
Also, you can either play 3C over 2NT as a checkback with 5 H, or you can
play transfers over 2NT to show this shape easily. So you bid 3C to show 4+D
. Partner can still bid... 阅读全帖 |
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b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 22 Slam value is impossible, you wouldn't have responded only 1H in first place
. For game hands, you can still cuebid first. I know this is not idea (
transfer is a better treatment), but when partner makes a limited bid on
balanced hands, responder with weak hands often wants to place/improve the
contract. Just like after 1NT opening, responder would sign off with 0 HCP.
Now we have transfer, but in the old days, 1NT-2H is just a sign off. |
|
p*********6
发帖数: 679 | 23 On BBO news - A new version of GIB (Version 20) released on 12/15.
Main Changes:
-Added/improved many rules for takeout doubles and continuations.
-Improved GIB's ability to choose between minor or major suits after a -2
level opening or overcall, including unusual NT.
-Improved rules on penalty and support redoubles.
-After partner gives a limit raise, GIB will now refrain from bidding to an
illogical level.
-Made GIB smarter after the 1NT - Stayman - 2 Major - 3 Other Major sequence
. GIB shou... 阅读全帖 |
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p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 24 Responding 2C over 1D with 4-4 in S and C creates a basic bridge problem. It
violates the basic bridge bidding principle: Bidding your 4-4 two suiters
up the line.
This principle is important in many areas. It would clearly show your shape
and if you don't bid them up the line, the higher suit bid shows a longer
length.
If you bid 2C first then show your S later, partner would always take you
for 5+C and 4+S. This shape distortion can be very costly in slam bidding.
For example, suppose your par... 阅读全帖 |
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p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 25 This sequence is not convincing at all. Suppose you hold Kxxx x KQx AQJxx,
you would bid the same way and the 7D is not a great contract at all (of
course, following your own cuebidding scheme). |
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p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 26 You still didn't realize how dangerous 2C can be.
Suppose the bidding goes like: 1D 2C 2H 2S:
Now you show 4S +5C, you partner holds Ax xxxx AQJx QJx
so he bids 3C to set up trumps. Now you have a problem, your 3D only shows 3
+D.
Anyway, you bid 3D. Now your partner knows that his H holding is weak. So he
bids 3S as a cuebid.
Now what? 4C is waiting. 4D is RKC in C, you are endplayed. Still, you are
smart, so you just bid 6D to end this nonsense. However, your partner is
also smart. You jump to... 阅读全帖 |
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b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 27 Pretty clear 2H. There is no reason to bypass it. If partner next bids 2S,
you raise to 3S; if partner bids 2NT, you bid 3S (forcing); if partner
raises to 3H, you can now cuebid 3S. |
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b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 28 So North cuebid 4D and 5D, you just don't believe him? :-) |
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p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 29 This is about hand evaluation. After you cuebid 4S and 5C, Axxx Axxxx - xxx
is much stronger than AQxx xxxxx - AKxx. When you have to guess and I have
an approach to stay out of slams when facing the second hand, I have an edge
.
that
grand
am
good |
|
b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 30 I think we both agree that first hand is much stronger. The question is
really about 5D cuebid. I think 5D should show that I like the hand (in
light of the bidding so far), so I wouldn't cue 5D with second hand. You
would bid 5D just to show the control on the way, and rely on partner not to
take this as showing extra. Either approach is fine, as long as the
partnership has same understanding of the 5D bid. |
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b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 31 Actually, I think N-S just misbid, instead of intentionally gamble. There is
no reason for them to feel that they have to swing. This is not barometer
game, they had no idea that they were behind by 4 imps. They could easily
lead by 4 imps instead, and only need to push the board. It is possible that
they had misunderstanding over the 5NT bid.
I don't think 4S is a clear overbid. South did have extra value, if 3C only
showed limit+ hand. He didn't know north had void in diamonds. From his
perspe... 阅读全帖 |
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p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 32 4D doesn't really need any extra here. 4D just shows a hand either with long
C or short C, D control and slam going. Hands like xx AQxxxx AJxx x are
perfectly fine.
Kxx KJx KQxxx Kx contains wastage in C and bad controls. So it is not really
slam going and should just bid 4H.
your example hand gives 3 aces 6 trumps and good hearts, which should
usually move forward after 4H. This hand is so powerful, let me just give
you xxx Kxx KQxxx Kx, 6 is still good. This is not a very high requirement
for ... 阅读全帖 |
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b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 33 If 3NT is "non-serious", then 4C is "serious cuebid". I think I'd bid 4NT
now. |
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g****o
发帖数: 1284 | 34 What's your sequence if spade is agreed as trump?
3NT = serious?
4C/4D/4H = non-serious cuebid?
don' |
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b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 35 If spade is trump, then 3NT=non-serious, 4C/4D/4H = serious cuebid |
|
i****e
发帖数: 642 | 36 Does 3S show 5-6 in major? I think H-S-S will show 5-6, H-H-S will show 6-4.
Surely, showing 4 spades here won't help to find a fit, but it may be
useful for pd to evaluate his hand. Is this traditional method obsolete?
If
cuebid
4C |
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b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 37 3H should not be a cuebid. When trump is agreed at 2-level, it is better to
use 3-level bids as shape-showing. At this point you have room, slam
interest can be shown later, first priority is to get to the best game. So
3H bid should show 5341 shape. With 5242 you can bid 2NT.
However, the given bidding sequence may have been affected by looking at
both hands. Usually the bidding would start with 1S 2C 2D 3S, it is
important to immediately show slam interest with good trump support (by
jumping t... 阅读全帖 |
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p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 38 doable with some special treatment and cuebid schemes. |
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p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 39 The modern treatment of 1S is stronger, about 0-10, often 9 or 10 with bad 4
card suits (some experts may even bid 1S with some bad 11).
For example: after 1C x p :
you can and should bid 1S with something like: xxxx Axx Kxx Qxx.
The reason you should bid 1S is that this hand is not strong enough to play
2S facing a 3 card S fit and minimum doubler. For example, your partner may
easily hold something like Qxx KTxx AQxx xx and 2S can easily be high here.
Therefore, a single raise is about good 1... 阅读全帖 |
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p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 40 The modern treatment of 1S is stronger, about 0-10, often 9 or 10 with bad 4
card suits (some experts may even bid 1S with some bad 11).
For example: after 1C x p :
you can and should bid 1S with something like: xxxx Axx Kxx Qxx.
The reason you should bid 1S is that this hand is not strong enough to play
2S facing a 3 card S fit and minimum doubler. For example, your partner may
easily hold something like Qxx KTxx AQxx xx and 2S can easily be high here.
Therefore, a single raise is about good 1... 阅读全帖 |
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b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 41 4S here should be natural. No fit has been agreed, cuebid doesn't make sense. |
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v**********e
发帖数: 1295 | 42 But S is opp's suit... So it also makes sense if partner take it as a cuebid.
sense. |
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b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 43 Science is good. But more important is agreement on what type of hands can
jump shift.
To me, AKQJxxx plus a side Ace is enough to bid 2S, so lots of 16-17 one-
suited hand would need to cuebid after 1D-2S-3S, so in this sequence 4C/4D/
4H cannot promise fit. If your requirement for 2S is substantially higher,
then your treatment makes sense. |
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p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 44 Well, even if you play 4C and 4H as cuebids, 4D has to show fit here.
A jumpshift can be made based on 5S+5D, here, it's very important to show
such a strong D fit for accurate slam biddings. |
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p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 45 1H is generally a fine bid. x is also acceptable.
One key mistake in this sequence is 3H. East's hand is very good now and
should justify a cuebid of 4C. 6H is good if west holds some extra, like: Ax
AKxxxx AQx xx |
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b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 46 Yes, this is an un-discussed situation for most partnerships, including pro
partnerships.
The general guideline I mentioned, applies when opponents bid to a real
contract such as 4S, then immediate bid shows offensive-oriented hand,
double shows no desire to bid to higher level, pass is neutral (semi-
encouraging if partner has offensive hand), pass then pulling partner's
double shows slam interest. This is similar to principle of fast arrival.
Here the opponents are not in 4S yet, so I guess yo... 阅读全帖 |
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b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 47 When opponents pre-empts at high level, accurate slam bidding is not just
hard, it is nearly impossible. You just have to accept that, that's why
people preempt. The priority should be given to determining whether to
defend or declare, and which game we should be if declaring. It is important
to protect your game bonus. After all, slam/grand-slam are less common than
game hands, plus when the distribution is wild you may not have normal
break, so a good slam might go down anyway. That's why 5D n... 阅读全帖 |
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b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 48 I would first ask two questions:
1) Does 2NT tend to show balanced hand?
2) Is 4C a cuebid, or good suit?
If opponents use the "standard" answer ("we haven't discussed those"), then
at least I can check:
1) Do they play splinter?
2) If no 3H interference, would 4C show a good suit? |
|
b********r
发帖数: 2242 | 49 4C feels like cuebid.
I would lead DA, hoping p has DK or HA |
|
b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 50 But, if 4C is just a cuebid but not a suit, I would admire a low diamond
lead, dummy most likely has DK. |
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